Protein absorption

[teirrah]

This is a protein 101 question but if you know the answer I'd love to hear from you!
Is there a limit to how much protein the body can absorb from one meal?
I am trying to gain and have increased my protein intake by drinking 2 whey protein shakes per day, in 300 mls of non fat milk as snacks. The bag suggests a serving of 20g of powder giving 13g protein but this is so wimpy looking that I use 2.5 times that amount to aim for @30g. I then drink a couple glasses of water.
Am I wasting this protein?
I eat between 5-6 times per day, lots of protein from real food but because it is real food none of my meals would contain more than 30g tops of protein.
One of the guys I work with said the body can only utilise about 20g at a time. Is he correct? I did a search but nothing came up so I'd appreciate some pointers.Thanks very much

 

[MS]

The body can ABSORB almost limitless amounts of protein. However it can only use a limited amount of that protein AS PROTEIN and the rest of it will get converted to glucose, fatty acids, or excreted. How much gets used as protein depends on many things including your size, gender, habituation (in other words how accustomed your body is to large protein intakes), age and, of course, protein 'needs' generated by muscle, connective tissue and enzyme turnover, growth, repair, illness etc....Everyone is different, but I would guess that abodybuilding female might be able to use 15-20g in one meal. This doesn't meant the rest of the protein is 'wasted' since protein can also supply calories without having a large impact on your pancreas (unlike many carb sources), and it's less easily stored as fat than dietary fats. It's also important (for muscle growth) to make sure that amino acids are never the limiting factor in your training/diet.

 

[teirrah]

Thank you for your reply MS.
Can I chuck another question out as a follow on, basically can I keep on with what I'm doing on the grounds that this way I'm not under funding? Or would you advise breaking up the shakes into smaller servings but greater frequency?

 

[MS]

There's prolly nothing wrong with what you're doing. That's how *most* bodybuilders eat. Personally I cycle my protein intake so my body doesn't become as accustomed to eating the same amount at the same time every day....makes it more efficient. Chronic "overfunding" as you call it, can cause your body to burn more protein as fuel compared to someone who varies their protein intake. But as long as there is enough protein, you shouldn't worry too much about the excess. I should have pointed out more clearly that the utilization question really depends on how often and how much protein you eat. If you only have significant amounts of protein once per day (or once every few days) then your body can use a lot more of the protein in that meal than if you eat protein 5-6 times per day. My rough guesstimate of 15g was based on your 5-6 meals per day. If you only ate 50g once every 2 days, I'd bet your body would use almost all of that 50g as protein rather than converting it. If you eat 50 every 2-3 hours, then your body will not use very much of that 50g protein as protein. Keep in mind that carbs also reduce your requirements for protein so if you are on a lower carb diet, you will need more protein intake.

 

[teirrah]

Thanks again for another information packed reply. Now that you have pointed it out I can see that the protein as protein take up would greatly vary accordng to how often and how much and how regularly it was consumed. At the moment I am following what I imagine is a pretty standard regime of eating 5-6 times a day, protein in 4 meals with 20-30g per meal. Carbs are fairly low except for Sundays when I eat pasta / bread / potato meals.
(This is not for any dietary reason, just that its my day off and I enjoy eating with my friends; 6 days of zen, 1 day of sin kind of thing.)
I am 5"9, weigh 68 kilos (err 150 lbs?) and have bf at 16.5%.
Since I started eating real clean food and eating more frequently my bf has dropped steadily from@22%. This was 6 months ago and I am delighted but now I am trying to gain more muscle without regaining the blub.
MS, you mentioned that you cycle your protein, if its not too much of a pain, could you tell me how you do this? And again, thank you for posting the replies.

 

[MS]

I'm happy to share my protein cycling as long as you keep reminding yourself that what works for me may or may not be ideal for you! My diet is also designed a lot around the 7 day week. From Monday morning until Friday afternoon I eat low carb, high protein (around 150-200g per day protein), and from Friday night through Sunday night I flop it around and eat high carb and low protein (protein varies from 40-60g per day). For the most part, I keep fat intake low (20% or under) with the occasional pizza meal sneaking in. This is pretty much my maintenance diet which is diet hard for 4-5 days then eat carbs for the weekend. I don't count or monitor my weekend carb intake...I let my body and circumstances dictate what is appropriate.

My Monday-Friday protein is in regular ~30g meals 5-6 times per day. My weekend protein intake is incidental and the foods I mainly eat are oats, pasta, beans, chick peas, fat-free ice cream and choc sauce.

 

[Drifter]

MS, do you know if it has been established yet whether ginger can increase the amount of protein absorbed or is it still speculative?

 

[MS]

Marinating meats with ginger can act as a tenderizer (in other words pre-digests the meat to a certain extent). It doesn't appear to have any benefits when used with legumes. Ginger may also increase gastric motility, so it may actually decrease protein digestion in the upper intestine?? I dunno. Ginger has a lot of other potential effects postabsorptively. Most folks have no problem digesting their protein, but tenderizers may have some benefit for the sick/elderly etc....

 

[teirrah]

Thank you for the info re what you eat, MS. As you say, what works for one person may not for another but as I am a total beginner at all this I think I need to experiment a bit to find what works for me. The idea of doing 5 days protein, 2 days carb appeals. I think I will put in another carb day til Christmas, but if it doesn't seem to be working and I'm blobbing up then do something else.

 

[Nelson Montana]

MS provided an excellent answer. I'd add just a couple of points, if I may.

Consider taking the protein shakes wih milk. Rheo Blair felt that lactose is the ultimate carb and helps is the assimilation of proteins. Although I can't provide any studies to back this up, I believe he was right. Besides, who am I to argue with a genius?

In regards to absorbing more protein, digestive enzymes may help. At one time Bromelain and Papaya enzyme were popular supplements to take along with protein since they aid in its break down and assimilation. For some reason they're no longer popular. Incidentally, it's papaya enzyme which is the active ingredient in meat tenderizers, not ginger.

 

[MS]

Ginger can also be used as a meat tenderizer. The two main proteases in ginger are structurally and functionally very similar to papain, bromelain, actinidin, and protease omega. From recollection, I believe all of these enzymes can inhibit steroid absorption, so it might be a good idea to avoid them if you're on an oral cycle. A better way to increase the protein digestibility of meat is to marinate it, then cook it, rather than just taking enzymes with your meal. This is possibly why these "supplements" fell out of favor....not as effective as good old fashioned marination.

Same deal for other proteins, eg hydolyzed whey is better absorbed than whole whey. This does not necessarily make the proteins "better" though. For instance there may be times when a slow digesting protein is "better" than a rapidly absorbed protein, and different enzymes yield different oligopeptides which may be better absorbed or have other desirable biological activity.

There is no doubt that milk is insulogenic, and this may be why Blair thinks it's a 'good carb', however I am more cautious in recommending milk as a great carb source because there is some evidence that milk/dairy carbs also induce a relative insulin resistance. In other words, dairy products may directly cause your pancreas to produce more insulin than is required for absorption of the carbs it contains. High insulin levels are something this ageing bodybuilder wishes to avoid. But no one knows for sure!

 

[macrophage69alpha]

take protein with ginger and then without.. most people notice the difference almot immeadiately.

 

[MS]

What kind of difference macro?

 

[Nelson Montana]

I find Ginger to be great for bloating and a "nervous" stomach .

MS: Good points, although I wouldn't think the insulin sensitivity is much of a concern, especially if you keep sugar and hi-gly carbs in their place.

Blair used some whey in his formula but was well aware of the slow digestive properties of milk, (and cream) making it more "anti-catabolic". I still believe whole egg is the optimum protein source since it's the closest amino acid ratio to human mothers milk. Whey is popular partly because it tastes good and mixes well. The supplement companies made it out to be superior but the reasoning was based not so much on science but on profit margins. Whey is cheap. It's the stuff that they throw away when making cheese, now it's the most expensive protein product available.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I find Ginger to be great for bloating and a "nervous" stomach .

MS: Good points, although I wouldn't think the insulin sensitivity is much of a concern, especially if you keep sugar and hi-gly carbs in check.

Blair used some whey in his formula but was well aware of the slow digestive properties of milk, (and cream) making it more "anti-catabolic". He also used whole egg which I still believe is the optimum protein source since it's the closest amino acid ratio to human mothers milk. Whey is popular partly because it tastes good and mixes well. The supplement companies made it out to be superior but the reasoning was based not so much on science as it was on profit margins. Whey is cheap. It's the stuff that they throw away when making cheese, now it's the most expensive protein product available.

 

[MS]

Without a doubt ginger settles my stomach (whether or not I've eaten any protein).

 

[Ulter]

I love ginger root. I never used it before MP came up with it for the AF Store. I can eat protein and not feel it anymore.

Hey there Mentor.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Yep, I like taking ginger with my protein meals, but I wasn't aware that it might inhibit the absorption of oral anabolics. Thanks for the heads up MS (if it is indeed true, which I know you didn't totally imply it was). Ginger has helped me keep the bloat down definately. To tell you the truth, I really can't say for sure if it really speeds up the digestion process because of the "settling" affect it has on the gut. I know it does help with F-L-A-T-U-L-A-N-C-E...I can tell a big difference in this regard. This tells me that it does have a chance of speeding up the digestion----->absorption rate, however I have a feeling it may not be by much. I can tell most when having large amounts of whey mixed with water. It doesn't seem to help much with cottage cheese and chicken very much to me though. However, I do find that the more I take without experiencing complications (3-4 grams as opposed to the usual 1-2 grams recommended), that it makes a difference as well. It may be that some people are not taking enough. The stuff is dirt cheap, so it makes experimenting nice.

In regards to the milk topic...I don't drink much milk anymore, even when bulking. Instead, I just incorporate cottage cheese into my daily patterns instead. I just do not like lactose, and i'm not even intolerant to it. It does make a shake taste 100% better than water though. I respond VERY good to whey, and it still continues to be my favorite. then it goes chicken breasts, cottage cheese, eggs, red meat.

I get a major blood sugar drop exactly at a 1/2 hour each time after I drink milk. Nothing seems to prevent this. I have tried mixing it with different fats, protein, fibers, carbs, etc...you name it! If I remember correctly, the half hour mark is also common in some of the milk studies i've read as well (have to check to be exact).

Dammit...I have this cool milk study dealing with absorption rates but can't find it!

BMJ

 

[rez]

MS Consider taking the protein shakes wih milk. Rheo Blair felt that lactose is the ultimate carb and helps is the assimilation of proteins. Although I can't provide any studies to back this up, I believe he was right. Besides, who am I to argue with a genius?

.

does this apply to yoghurt as well - so the lactose in yoghurt is also a good carb?

 

[Nelson Montana]

rez: It would apply, but yogurt isn't exactly a high protein food. I guess if you mixed in some protein powder it would work , but I wouldn't imagine that being too palatable.

Yogurt falls under the catagory of what I call a "fake health food." Most of the dubious benifits of the friendly bacteria are long gone after it's been on the store shelf for a few days. Yogurt is essentially a glass of sour milk with 6 teaspoons of sugar.

 

[rez]

Oh, wait you mean ginger root stuff. Love! It! I eat a ton of the pickled stuff with sushi. Is that sort of ginger good as well?

its soo delicious because it contain sugar
but there is artifcally sweetned versions as well.. so look out for them

 

[MS]

A properly fermented yogurt will have almost no lactose left in it. This is why many people who are lactose intolerant can still eat yogurt. So no, it is not the same as drinking milk. But you have to be very very careful buying commercial yogurts since, as Montana pointed out, most of them are pure junk food. There are low fat unsweetened yogurts which are a pretty decent source of protein, but unless they are artificially sweetened, the taste is, ummmm, aquired!


I believe one of MR BMJs fave articles on this is a good read (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11451723&dopt=Abstract), and it shows that the addition of pickled foods, or anything with vinegar in it (Wink wink WarLobo, this would include pickled ginger ), helps to reduce the insulogenic and glucogenic response to high GI meals and dairy products.

Can't say personally I've ever noticed a problem digesting my protein, aside from legumes which ginger is not very good at helping with anyway. Then again, I don't eat meat........

 

[lil k]

take protein with ginger and then without.. most people notice the difference almot immeadiately.

i did! night and day...my tummy didnt get all bloated, almost no gas (not that i have gas, lol), much better and i seem to be able to pack in much more food or protien...

 

[RottenWillow]

Some good basic information regarding protein and protein absorption.

There's a lot of old threads that need to get bumped up.