Proper Spotting and Training to Failure

[MadCow1]

I replyed with this on another board so I figured I'd post it here also:

I've trained alone most of my life. I've also trained for years with a partner and I currently have one. Let me set a few things straight as the notions of spotting and failure are so distorted in the gyms today:

A spotter is for safety - not to help you do your work sets or even touch that bar unless necessary. Even fingers touching the bar upset the alignment and make it easier/less effective. This is why we use free weights and not machines and why the smith machine sucks. As does the Joe Spotter machine - see my point. (Free weights being more effective than machines for hypertrophy is a given so lets not bring up how many of us adore the Hammer or Cybex Pec Deck)

Failure is when I hit that last rep and my form begins to really break down. Where I begin using joint leverages and wiggling some to make it. You still make the lift but you know that certain muscles could not hold out. This is the point of muscular failure on the lift.

Failure is not where some joker does shrugs while you bench your last 5 reps or touches the bar for most of the set. These are forced reps and although they can be beneficial for breaking plateaus should be used sparingly and not part of core training. This would be vastly beyond the point of failure i.e. >100%

A partner is great for motivation, plate loading on heavy days, and indispensable for confidence on max outs and lift offs. However for the vast majority of all sets and all exercises they should not assist you with the lifts in any way. Hence the term "spotter" and not "assistant lifter".

Thought some of you might find this insightful as the gyms today have destroyed the notion of what a spotter is used for - and I can't stand spotting for someone who wants me to lift the last 5 reps for him. This also is intended for all lifts but it's most abused by the benchers.

Good training to you all.

 

[chillin408]

I agree with you. I Only got a spot on bench because its the only excercise i can think of that if u drop the weight,your dropping it on yourself. For example with squats u can always drop it behind you on the safety rack, but with bench if u drop it your dropping it on your chest. I tell the spotter to only help if im absolutly dying. It sucks with someone puts their hand in your face for all 12 reps, makes me angry because i feel like i did 20-30 lighter(their finger help). Also i don't like it when they help me when i look like im stuck,but im really not. But I understand, because some people actually want help on the last few reps,some even want help on all of them, so whenever i;m giving a spot always make sure that i'm clear on there directions.

I understand what your saying though. For example when someone says i can do a certain weight 12 times. But their talking about with a spot,but in reality they could only do it 4-5 times before they fail without one. And about the smith machine theirs this guy that always use to talk shit . He only uses the smith machine when he does squats,and he claims he can do the same weight using free weights(right!). He thinks theirs no difference,but hes full of shit,hes punk who always talk shit. He knows hes lying too.

 

[panerai]

Very popular lately is a theory that one shouldn't go to failure and use spotter. Stop 1-2 reps before failure.
Lots of guys who tried it, claim greater gains that with old fashion method.

 

[CB38AC]

I like training hard with assistance. Usually pic a wieght i can do 5 clean then force up 2 more with no help then finish with 2 more with the minimum help needed just when stuck will say help to my partner and get just enough, this is the only way i canever feel tired or sore and will even drop and force 2-3 more at a lighter wieght frequently

 

[bigmag]

I agree with you....but I like for my spotter to help me out on the last few because I don't like staining my ass off and not making the bar move.....and I like to go untill I can't even feel my muscles....but that's how I like it.....it's more of a matter of prefference imho

 

[MadCow1]

It's not really a matter of preference - it's the difference between failure and forced reps. If you need help lifting you have already failed. Forced reps when used on a regular basis tend to limit gains. A spotter just keeps you from killing yourself and should only come to assistance if you badly misjudge and can't make the lift.

Of course if you prefer using forced reps for all your core workouts and hurting your gains, more power to you. That is a matter of preference.

 

[CB38AC]

How can you say that mad cow? I know myself if I only do regular sets with no forced reps then I will NEVER be sore or feel tired no matter how hard I wroked on the sets. And what about someone on Gear the should want to do forced reps to stimulate even more growth

 

[MadCow1]

Amended to the case against forced reps on a consistent basis

This response got lengthy but I think it's worthwhile:

Progress (increased work capacity/stronger/bigger muscles) has little to do with how tired one is at the end of a workout or how sore one gets.

A drug like Anadrol enables many lifters to do set after endless set and oftentimes they do not get very sore - this in no way keeps them from getting stronger or bigger. Many top level lifters train with high frequency before a meet and do not get sore workout to workout but still continue to increase lifts and peak for the event. Same for drugged and natural.

They cycle and increase work capacity based on total volume in an exercise and where intensity is quantitatively defined as %of 1RM. This is classical weight training used by the best power and olympic lifters, coaches, and teams around the globe.

The antithesis of this style training is the HIT training where one measures intesity by feel. I don't want to get into HIT vs. %'s cause I've had success with both but there's huge evidence for training by % over longer periods of time. Neither HIT or %'s involve training consistently past the point of failure with forced reps.

People have taken the notion of muscular failure and taken it to the extreme where the involved muscles lose all capacity by the end of a set and your spotter completes the lifts for you. This is fine for a minicycle but in reality muscle is 1st damaged by exercise then repaired stronger than before by a marginal degree. The goal is to get the best response possible with the minimum amount of damage i.e. (take 5 away but add 10 = net 5 where taking 9 away but adding 10 = net 1). Your recovery is limited and if extra damage is caused it takes away from gains and possibly sets you back. When drugged your response is stronger where you can repair more and get stronger faster but still the goal is the same - maximize adaptation by minimizing damage.

Forced reps cause a high degree of damage on a consistent basis. You may still make gains but you are shortchanging yourself. Used sparingly they work great. Of course you may not feel the same sort of exhaustion after a workout but your gains will improve.

BTW - I highly recommend training by %'s and total volume for the core lifts. It is the basis on which the best strength atheletes in the world are trained.

 

[fiatconspiracy]

when you spot some knuckle head who is benching 8000lbs I just push down a little on the weight and pretend I am spotting, or i will yell real loud " come on you mother fu**er, lift the FU**ING weight, " so it attracts a lot of attention and the guy is forced to do like 3 extra reps, and he is sore broken after that set, My theory is he wont ask me to spot him again, but they always do, maybe they like the pain?

 

[milos]

Having someone to spot you is usually good as loong as they are doing it right My workout partner used to lift the bloody thing for me on the last few reps and that really pissed me off. I mean what is the point of those few last reps if you are not doing them with max effort. I started using stripping method for a while and that does work well for me it really thakes everything out from you if you use it right. But you are rigt having a spotter is usually very beneficial when it comes to motivation saefty... But you must be careful who you pick.

 

[MikeyLikesJuice]

wow the smith machine sucks, since when, I have had great success with the smith machine. Nobodys hands in my face, or helping me with a rep when I don't need it, or wondering if your training partner can make it that day,the safetys will save me from getting hurt on the smith machine much better then a human could, and no I did not say it's better then free weights, but it gets the job done, but to say it sucks, thats harsh. This in no way is a flame either/

 

[##spiderbaby##]

I use the squat rack for my benches. It allows me to go to failure because of the safety bars. I just set them a bit below my chest and when I fail it just hurts a bit until I roll it to my neck area and slide out from under it.

I had a training partner a loooong time ago but they never seem to last and I get sick of trying to get them into the gym. I also only rest about 15 seconds if that between sets so I really do not have time for a partner anymore.

 

[MadCow1]

15 secs between sets is more of an aerobic workout on the muscles this is not good for strength and size. I don't know what your goals are but I doubt this is right for them.

Power rack is excellent for training alone. If I ever build a home gym it will be the core.

 

[NinjaX]

Im inclined to agree with Madcow the use of the 2 fingers does hamper the effectiveness of the workout, But i also have to add that it also tampers with your mental game in the gym, if you are attempting to lift heavier weight and a spotter used the 2 finger touch, most of the time i see alot of guys thinking they cant bench the weight when indeed its just fucking with their mind

 

[CB38AC]

But my point/Question is...How can you say a very good spot for 2 forced reps is not helpfull? If I don't do that then no mater how hard or heav with good form, I will NEVER EVER be sore or feel even moderately tired, if anything I feel lazy and do not even want to come back the next day. I don't see how working harder can slow progress especially for someone who is young or on gear

 

[MadCow1]

I posted my answer to this above in this thread- it starts out stating that the explanation got a bit long.

In brief - you are causing too much damage to fibers and hurting recovery (with or without steroids).

Feeling good about your workout and efficiency at making gains are separate issues. I don't know what to tell you. If you must do forced reps every workout and be exhausted to feel good about your life and workouts then that may be more important than gaining size/strength.

Personally I feel better when I improve and the best way to do that is increasing total volume and training by %'s. If you must train to exhaustion you will not gain as well.

 

[MadCow1]

I COPIED THIS FROM ABOVE - THIS WAS THE RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION

"This response got lengthy but I think it's worthwhile:

Progress (increased work capacity/stronger/bigger muscles) has little to do with how tired one is at the end of a workout or how sore one gets.

A drug like Anadrol enables many lifters to do set after endless set and oftentimes they do not get very sore - this in no way keeps them from getting stronger or bigger. Many top level lifters train with high frequency before a meet and do not get sore workout to workout but still continue to increase lifts and peak for the event. Same for drugged and natural.

They cycle and increase work capacity based on total volume in an exercise and where intensity is quantitatively defined as %of 1RM. This is classical weight training used by the best power and olympic lifters, coaches, and teams around the globe.

The antithesis of this style training is the HIT training where one measures intesity by feel. I don't want to get into HIT vs. %'s cause I've had success with both but there's huge evidence for training by % over longer periods of time. Neither HIT or %'s involve training consistently past the point of failure with forced reps.

People have taken the notion of muscular failure and taken it to the extreme where the involved muscles lose all capacity by the end of a set and your spotter completes the lifts for you. This is fine for a minicycle but in reality muscle is 1st damaged by exercise then repaired stronger than before by a marginal degree. The goal is to get the best response possible with the minimum amount of damage i.e. (take 5 away but add 10 = net 5 where taking 9 away but adding 10 = net 1). Your recovery is limited and if extra damage is caused it takes away from gains and possibly sets you back. When drugged your response is stronger where you can repair more and get stronger faster but still the goal is the same - maximize adaptation by minimizing damage.

Forced reps cause a high degree of damage on a consistent basis. You may still make gains but you are shortchanging yourself. Used sparingly they work great. Of course you may not feel the same sort of exhaustion after a workout but your gains will improve.

BTW - I highly recommend training by %'s and total volume for the core lifts. It is the basis on which the best strength atheletes in the world are trained. "

 

[CB38AC]

I read that post you wrote before I only wonder if scientifically that is true, I once put on 30 pounds in 3 months working past failur are you saying I could have put on more doing sets not to failure? Nevermind forced reps, do you think stoping before failure is advisable? To me it makes no sense, if you do not push the body past its known limits then it has no reason to synthesise muscle. Naturally the body does not WANT to build muscle, evolution says that in times of famine muscle is a liability and have always been taught that for this reason in order to build muscle one must suply both the nutrient and ever growing levels of stimulation. Taking that into acount there is also the issue sof time at workout. If increasing sets or amount of work is the taken route as you suggest as one means then you run into the problem of corticsol in lengthy workouts and if using increased % is the solution used to higher workloads then there is the issues of beeing able to stimulate muscle and not nueroligal systems by working to close to max weight
Also the idea of heavy wieghts has been a mainstay in bdybuilding for a reason, it causes more muscle growth by causing more damage aka more direct stimulation to grow

 

[MadCow1]

Heavy weight and short intense workouts are crucial (I don't remember ever advising against this).

I'm also in agreement that training to failure is beneficial but failure is not defined as forced reps (if spotter must touch then you should have racked on the rep before - miscalculation). Spotter should only be involved for safety (the argument is against the 'assistant lifter mentality').

I think we are in agreement on all of this. I wasn't covering every facet of the workout just the role of the spotter and forced reps. Otherwise I'd be writing a book and most of what I'd say is already available from much better sources anyway.

 

[MadCow1]

I missed something.

Regarding pushing the body past limits, when training by %'s is to slowly increase the total volume lifted (weight x reps x sets) over a period of time. This tends to add to the body's strength in a systematic manner - it's also quantifiable as you are consistently increasing week to week. Even though failure may not be attained until you are closing in on the end of your training cycle your lifts increase quite consistently.

If you are suddenly adding tons of juice into your training (30 lbs. weight gain in 3 months) it's tough to plot weekly %'s unless you are a very advanced lifter where huge body/strength changes don't occur all at once. In your case it may be better to use this for natural training as you can't predict your strength gains in advance.

 

[CB38AC]

That 30 pounds was natural

 

[MadCow1]

Impressive - are you a beginner?

No one training over 1-2 years can make that type of gain in 90 days naturally unless they've starved themselves for periods to bring starting weight down or gained mostly fat.

You can't really base a training program or theories on results like that as it's such an atypical response and unrepeatable under normal conditions by nearly every weight trainer. If you can continue putting on 10 quality pounds a month that would be 120lbs a year. There's just no way that will ever happen.

I realize this is a blanket statement but if you are an advanced lifter, did this naturally, and gains were mostly muscle you have freakish genetics and regardless you will find it impossible to make similar gains again. Most guys on this board can't make those gains with juice let alone natural.

Still nice gains though

 

[CB38AC]

It a combo of both good genetics and semi-begginer..My body just wants to be at a certain wieght (5'10 185) and when i let myself go below it just goes right back to it when i pick up the wieghts

 

[barbells79]

this is a good post, and an interesting one. ive trained alone and with a partner also, and i would much rather train alone. i know my limits and i know when i need some help in cetain lifts. since the object of this game is to strive to push more and more weight, there are times when a spotter is necessary. i definately dont need a PARTNER for this as there are many knowledgable bros at my gym willing and able to help out. and since we are serious bbers we all know that a bad partner can really drag you down.

nuff said as i am rambling now............................

 

[NinjaX]

i definitely agree lone training is the way to go, makes you have to lift the weight not just try

 

[CB38AC]

but a really good spotter CAN HELP...my spotter is afraid to touch the bar too early cause he knows i will fucking bitch him out if he does, o its all in the spotter, when i spot my friend i will taunt him by walkin away or yellin to make him do the last rep, its all in the motivation and the knowledge of the spotter

 

[Bossman]

I agree, I always train alone and will usually ask someone standing around to spot me. It always pisses me off that when I still have three reps left the asshole puts his fingers on the bar and helps with the lift. Spotting to me means that if I get stuck on the last rep and the weight starts to come back down that the person lifts it off. If I can't get a rep myself then my set is done, there is no reason to try two more with help from someone else.