Prop -- What's the point?

[Nelson Montana]

I have to say, I see no advantage whatsoever to using a propionate ester -- for ANYTHING.

Okay, you can say that since it's a faster ester, technically, more of the compound gets used. That's true. But the difference is nominal.

Stay with me on this...

Let's say that 100 mgs of test prop is a full 100 mgs. (It isn't but let's keep things simple for clarities sake). Then you'd get 100 mgs for a day. By day two, you're getting around 70 mgs. So that requires 4 shots a week to keep levels elevated.

Now, let's say a enanthate gives a slow steady release of about HALF (It's more than that but I'm going to keep estimates conservative to make a point). It will peak after 2 days and drop down to about 50 by day 7.

Going by this, you actually get a comparable amount of test in your system from a single shot of enth as you do from 4 shots of prop.

Now, they say prop causes less water retention, but again, I think it's marginal. In fact, prop aromatizes more since it's a quicker hit, so you may need more AI -- which in a sense, leaves you right back in the same place. Personally, I prefer the "fullness" from enth, but I';m on the thin side. Still, I just don't see much of an advantage.

Okay, let's address the obvious. Prop "kicks in " faster. Not really.

True, blood levels will peak in minutes with prop. But so what? Do a little more enth and you'll still have superphysiologicla levels within a couple of hours. The notion that enth takes "weeks" to kick in is the dumbest for of ignorant bro-science. It simply is not true. I actually think it's an excuse to not train full out and blame the "kick-in" time of the drugs.

This goes across the board. Masteron was originally in a prop form. But many UG labs have used the enth ester. Is it as good? I think it's BETTER. You still get a quick hit. (Mast does that). But it LASTS! Mast prop seems to lose its effect within a couple of days. The enth does not.

Of course, there will be those who swear by prop. I just don't see it. ANd I think if everyone gave it a fair shot (no pun intended) they'd realize that a prop ester for anyone cycling is essentially more work, time and money than it's worth.

But to each his own.

 

[joeblow12345]

I couldn't agree more. I hate short esters and the only one I ever use once in a while is a tne blend as a pre workout. I also don't like pinning every day either. Once a week or twice at the most is all I want to do.

 

[UA_Iron]

There's actually excellent calculators online for determining [relative] blood concentration levels of different esters. Longer esters peak and stabilize quite a bit higher than shorter esters.

Front loading for 2 weeks greatly decreases the time to reaching peak blood concentrations - but its utility has not shown to be as effective in practice.

Certain things do take a few weeks to kick in... Sex drive, aggression, strength. I couldn't tell you the difference in time for prop versus enanthate though - I haven't run prop in years.

I run masteron enanthate, I dont even bother with the propionate. UG labs... uhoh.

 

[wootoom]

I prefer long esters...I have found that between a long and short water it has changes my levels or gained more bloat....some people may be different

 

[UA_Iron]

Short esters are good for things that make you a nutcase and with harsh sides like tren. Tren enanthate your blood levels get so much higher than the acetate, and last for so much longer.

 

[wootoom]

Water I meant esters...stupid iPhone

 

[Nelson Montana]

I you want "instant" elevated androgen and anabolism, I think orals are the way to go. You only need to take them about a week or two before everything catches up to maximum levels. And keeping orals to 2 weeks prevents a shitload of potential problems.

 

[superturkey]

I you want "instant" elevated androgen and anabolism, I think orals are the way to go. You only need to take them about a week or two before everything catches up to maximum levels. And keeping orals to 2 weeks prevents a shitload of potential problems.

I agree with you here: orals for a kickstart.

But what about end a cycle.
Rather than waiting for the long ester to clear (3 weeks) and having reduced levels.
Why not keep them peaking right up untill PCT with Prop?

 

[Nelson Montana]

I agree with you here: orals for a kickstart.

But what about end a cycle.
Rather than waiting for the long ester to clear (3 weeks) and having reduced levels.
Why not keep them peaking right up untill PCT with Prop?

Why not just start PCT sooner? And let the slower esters act as a gradual taper instead of a quick drop.

 

[superturkey]

Why not just start PCT sooner? And let the slower esters act as a gradual taper instead of a quick drop.

Correct me if im wrong but:
Arnt you going to be suppressed untill the majority of the foreign hormones clear your blood stream.
Thus trying to restore natural test(PCT) while suppressed would be uneffective.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Correct me if im wrong but:
Arnt you going to be suppressed untill the majority of the foreign hormones clear your blood stream.
Thus trying to restore natural test(PCT) while suppressed would be uneffective.

Once everything is cleared is when you're the MOST suppressed.

 

[RADAR]

Once everything is cleared is when you're the MOST suppressed.

BAM! hit the nail on the head,


I'm with Nelson on this ,i havn't used prop in yrs, besides altho i like long esters i never bloat from using them.

 

[dylangemelli]

I can definitely concur on the difference between mast prop and mast e... Mast e is definitely superior

 

[notjake11]

My entire cycle is designed with longer esters for many of the same reasons.

One that you didn't touch on is with longer esters you can safely run longer cycles. With a longer cycle you have more time to put in the blood, sweat and tears to take full advantage of the compounds in your system. If you're training properly, a 12 week cycle with longer esters givers you an extra four weeks to bust your ass while on.

 

[stevesmi]

Correct me if im wrong but:
Arnt you going to be suppressed untill the majority of the foreign hormones clear your blood stream.
Thus trying to restore natural test(PCT) while suppressed would be uneffective.

until all the esters clear your body then you will stay suppressed. thats why tapering was de-bunked a long time ago.

as far as the thread i'm not a fan of short esters simply because I hate injecting. however they do have their purpose. if you want to run a shorter cycle then run short esters. if you want to run a longer cycle then run longer esters.

i would never run tren E less than 10 weeks for example.. but with tren ace 8 weeks is totally fine.

 

[rage22]

And this thread after I just picked up my next cycle of all test prop and mast prop... Haha sweet

 

[Jack steel]

There's actually excellent calculators online for determining [relative] blood concentration levels of different esters. Longer esters peak and stabilize quite a bit higher than shorter esters.

Front loading for 2 weeks greatly decreases the time to reaching peak blood concentrations - but its utility has not shown to be as effective in practice.

Certain things do take a few weeks to kick in... Sex drive, aggression, strength. I couldn't tell you the difference in time for prop versus enanthate though - I haven't run prop in years.

I run masteron enanthate, I dont even bother with the propionate. UG labs... uhoh.

Yes! This is a good "esters for dummies". Just google pct calculator and you can enter everything your taking and all the doses etc. it'll show you where you are, perhaps not exactly but a good idea.

 

[CaliRobK]

What are your guys' veiws on NPP?

 

[Nelson Montana]

until all the esters clear your body then you will stay suppressed. thats why tapering was de-bunked a long time ago.

as far as the thread i'm not a fan of short esters simply because I hate injecting. however they do have their purpose. if you want to run a shorter cycle then run short esters. if you want to run a longer cycle then run longer esters.

i would never run tren E less than 10 weeks for example.. but with tren ace 8 weeks is totally fine.

Why can't you use slow esters for a short cycle? I've never done a cycle over 6 weeks in my life. You start out with some orals, the first week and by week 2 you're at maximum levels. Once you stop, what's in your system tapers over the next 10 days or so. You can start PCT a few days after the last shot and continue for the next month. I don't see how using short esters in that case would be superior. In fact, the longer esters would make for a smoother transition.

 

[superturkey]

Why can't you use slow esters for a short cycle? I've never done a cycle over 6 weeks in my life. You start out with some orals, the first week and by week 2 you're at maximum levels. Once you stop, what's in your system tapers over the next 10 days or so. You can start PCT a few days after the last shot and continue for the next month. I don't see how using short esters in that case would be superior. In fact, the longer esters would make for a smoother transition.

Lets say you did a 10 week cycle of 500mg test E. You would start PCT a few(3) days after the last shot?

Days after last shot/active test
7/500mg
14/235mg
21/100mg

At a 10.5 day half life, your levels wont be low enough to PCT untill 21 days after last shot.
This is what were taught here.
This is why we wait 3 weeks.

Have I been misinformed?

 

[stevesmi]

Why can't you use slow esters for a short cycle? I've never done a cycle over 6 weeks in my life. You start out with some orals, the first week and by week 2 you're at maximum levels. Once you stop, what's in your system tapers over the next 10 days or so. You can start PCT a few days after the last shot and continue for the next month. I don't see how using short esters in that case would be superior. In fact, the longer esters would make for a smoother transition.

with E or U esters there is no way nelson you are at max levels by week 2. this is just not true.
you can run bloodwork and see for yourself. with orals then yes by week 2 you have definately hit max levels. with prop around week 2-3.

also with an E or U ester it won't taper off after 10 days. if it has a 10-15 day half life how can it be out of your system in just 10 days? makes no sense. more like 35 days to get to low levels in the body. again bloodwork doesn't lie. the danger of people beleiving this is they run their pct's too short.. come off and then still have esters leftover that suppress them, and then complain how their pct didn't work. ugh happens with 90% of newbs.

i have posted countless bloodwork showing this and you can plug the numbers in on pct calculator websites and its all there for you to see

 

[Nelson Montana]

with E or U esters there is no way nelson you are at max levels by week 2. this is just not true.
you can run bloodwork and see for yourself. with orals then yes by week 2 you have definately hit max levels. with prop around week 2-3.

also with an E or U ester it won't taper off after 10 days. if it has a 10-15 day half life how can it be out of your system in just 10 days? makes no sense. more like 35 days to get to low levels in the body. again bloodwork doesn't lie. the danger of people beleiving this is they run their pct's too short.. come off and then still have esters leftover that suppress them, and then complain how their pct didn't work. ugh happens with 90% of newbs.

i have posted countless bloodwork showing this and you can plug the numbers in on pct calculator websites and its all there for you to see

Well, I'm having bloodwork done this week. I had my last shot on Saturday -- one week ago. I did my HRT shot yesterday.( Friday.) My guess is that it's going to show normal HRT levels -- maybe a tad elevated but not out of range. Will report back.

 

[stevesmi]

I don't understand. you had your last shot of what a week ago? primo?

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't understand. you had your last shot of what a week ago? primo?

No, my last Primo shot was on Wednesday. I had a shot of test on Mon or tues (can't recall right now) and was planning on not doing any because I wanted to be dry but by the day of the show felt I could actually afford to fill out a little so I did just 100 mgs. So that week, I did 300 mgs of test -- which was my standard dosing along with a shot of primo EOD. Remember, even Primo will show an elevated T level. It's less androgenic than most other steroids but there's still an androgenic component. ALL steroids are based on the testosterone molecule.

So the question is...how much of all that will be present by next week? My guess -- not much.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ absolutely primo will show up.

i will tell you this nelson. i'm on EQ. i tested after 3 weeks on.. my T levels were only 850. then i tested at week 6.. they were at >1500.. i am not running test with it btw.

if you have only been off primo that short time it will definately show up but obviously in less amount since the day after your last injection.. it will slowly taper off over time. but i assure you an E ester is gonna take about 4-5 weeks to clear out fully. it isn't large amounts and it probably isn't enough to make a dent in your bloodwork since you are HRT but its still enough to suppress and keep your LH near 0 (assuming you weren't HRT and just a cycler). since you are on HRT anyway its not an issue for you anyway but it is a cool little experiment to play with.. but i get what your thread is all about. if i was HRT i wouldn't even think twice about just doing long esters.

 

[Nelson Montana]

^^^ absolutely primo will show up.

I will tell you this nelson. I'm on eq. I tested after 3 weeks on.. My t levels were only 850. Then i tested at week 6.. They were at >1500.. I am not running test with it btw.
..........................

yes, all steroids will raise test. I think the fact that you used eq might be the reason your t levels took longer to rise, but you knbow, 850 and 1500 is not that big of a jump. I've been on a steady 100 mgs a week for years and depending on what day i'm tested my t has been as low as 700 and as high as 1100. So there you have it. It's not a "build up" it's just fluctuation.


...............................................

If you have only been off primo that short time it will definately show up but obviously in less amount since the day after your last injection.. It will slowly taper off over time. But i assure you an e ester is gonna take about 4-5 weeks to clear out fully. It isn't large amounts and it probably isn't enough to make a dent in your bloodwork since you are hrt but its still enough to suppress and keep your lh near 0 (assuming you weren't hrt and just a cycler). Since you are on hrt anyway its not an issue for you anyway but it is a cool little experiment to play with.. But i get what your thread is all about. If i was hrt i wouldn't even think twice about just doing long esters.

......................

this is the point i've been trying to get across for so long. Yes, some might be present, (it might make a dent as you say) but once the steroid is inactive the "half life" does not make a tremendous difference in blood levels and if that's the case then the anabolic/andorgenic effect of the remaining drug is essentially irrelevant. As for lh, that's a different story. Yeah, my lh is virtually nil. I do still produce some (so ever after years of hrt, i make a little t on my own) but it certainly isn't enough to sustain me. I still don't see how it would make a difference whether one is on hrt or not.

...........................

 

[Nelson Montana]

^^^ absolutely primo will show up.

I will tell you this nelson. I'm on eq. I tested after 3 weeks on.. My t levels were only 850. Then i tested at week 6.. They were at >1500.. I am not running test with it btw.
..........................

yes, all steroids will raise test. I think the fact that you used eq might be the reason your t levels took longer to rise, but you knbow, 850 and 1500 is not that big of a jump. I've been on a steady 100 mgs a week for years and depending on what day i'm tested my t has been as low as 700 and as high as 1100. So there you have it. It's not a "build up" it's just fluctuation.


...............................................

If you have only been off primo that short time it will definately show up but obviously in less amount since the day after your last injection.. It will slowly taper off over time. But i assure you an e ester is gonna take about 4-5 weeks to clear out fully. It isn't large amounts and it probably isn't enough to make a dent in your bloodwork since you are hrt but its still enough to suppress and keep your lh near 0 (assuming you weren't hrt and just a cycler). Since you are on hrt anyway its not an issue for you anyway but it is a cool little experiment to play with.. But i get what your thread is all about. If i was hrt i wouldn't even think twice about just doing long esters.

......................

this is the point i've been trying to get across for so long. Yes, some might be present, (it might make a dent as you say) but once the steroid is inactive the "half life" does not make a tremendous difference in blood levels and if that's the case then the anabolic/andorgenic effect of the remaining drug is essentially irrelevant. As for lh, that's a different story. Yeah, my lh is virtually nil. I do still produce some (so ever after years of hrt, i make a little t on my own) but it certainly isn't enough to sustain me. I still don't see how using long esters would make a difference whether one is on hrt or not.

...........................

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ it was >1500 bro.. meaning 1500+.. the lab doesn't read anything higher.

it could be 1500 or it could be 2500.. who knows

 

[ledhead]

I have to say, I see no advantage whatsoever to using a propionate ester -- for ANYTHING.

Okay, you can say that since it's a faster ester, technically, more of the compound gets used. That's true. But the difference is nominal.

Stay with me on this...

Let's say that 100 mgs of test prop is a full 100 mgs. (It isn't but let's keep things simple for clarities sake). Then you'd get 100 mgs for a day. By day two, you're getting around 70 mgs. So that requires 4 shots a week to keep levels elevated.

Now, let's say a enanthate gives a slow steady release of about HALF (It's more than that but I'm going to keep estimates conservative to make a point). It will peak after 2 days and drop down to about 50 by day 7.

Going by this, you actually get a comparable amount of test in your system from a single shot of enth as you do from 4 shots of prop.

Now, they say prop causes less water retention, but again, I think it's marginal. In fact, prop aromatizes more since it's a quicker hit, so you may need more AI -- which in a sense, leaves you right back in the same place. Personally, I prefer the "fullness" from enth, but I';m on the thin side. Still, I just don't see much of an advantage.

Okay, let's address the obvious. Prop "kicks in " faster. Not really.

True, blood levels will peak in minutes with prop. But so what? Do a little more enth and you'll still have superphysiologicla levels within a couple of hours. The notion that enth takes "weeks" to kick in is the dumbest for of ignorant bro-science. It simply is not true. I actually think it's an excuse to not train full out and blame the "kick-in" time of the drugs.

This goes across the board. Masteron was originally in a prop form. But many UG labs have used the enth ester. Is it as good? I think it's BETTER. You still get a quick hit. (Mast does that). But it LASTS! Mast prop seems to lose its effect within a couple of days. The enth does not.

Of course, there will be those who swear by prop. I just don't see it. ANd I think if everyone gave it a fair shot (no pun intended) they'd realize that a prop ester for anyone cycling is essentially more work, time and money than it's worth.

But to each his own.

Nah. You are a little off the beam on this one, brah.

Perhaps the most important thing is that short-chain esters yield a much higher plasma concentration of steroid than steroids of longer side chain esters.

In some study, a single 100 mg/ml x 1 ml IM injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml IM injection of nandrolone decanoate.


This level remained increased for almost seven days. By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enth per week probably would not be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone prop or even Testosterone suspension per week. I'm going to see better results with the prop and even better results with the suspension. Sure, I may need to inject the prop and suspension more often, but in the long run you get more bang for your buck with short esters because you are getting double the "Peak Plasma Concentration from short esters than long esters, which means you are getting more hormone in your blood from short esters...

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nah. You are a little off the beam on this one, brah.

...............

Nah, I'm sure I'm pretty dead on brah. : )


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Perhaps the most important thing is that short-chain esters yield a much higher plasma concentration of steroid than steroids of longer side chain esters.


..................
I addressed that. I just don't think it's a huge difference.


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In some study, a single 100 mg/ml x 1 ml IM injection of nandrolone phenylpropionate caused a peak plasma concentration of almost double that of the 100 mg/ml x 1 ml IM injection of nandrolone decanoate.

..................




.....................................


This level remained increased for almost seven days

...........................

Well, I'd have to see the study because that makes no sense.


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By fourteen days, even though the nandrolone decanoate ester demonstrated a much higher plasma level than the nandrolone phenylpropionate level, the net amount of both was so low as to be ineffective.

............

So...?


....................


This tells me that the effects I can see from using 500 mg of Testosterone enth per week probably would not be the same as using 500 mg of Testosterone prop or even Testosterone suspension per week.

...................

Right -- except it's one shot as compared to 4 shots!


................................


I'm going to see better results with the prop and even better results with the suspension. Sure, I may need to inject the prop and suspension more often, but in the long run you get more bang for your buck with short esters because you are getting double the "Peak Plasma Concentration from short esters than long esters, which means you are getting more hormone in your blood from short esters...

...............


No way it's double mg per mg.. Unless you're talking about shooting 100 mgs EOD which is actually 400 mgs, so yeah, it's double because it's twice as much.

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[ledhead]

..............

This article/study will enlighten you..


The Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics, Vol 281, No. 1; 93-102, 1997

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/281/1/93.pdf

This study even proves the glute injections yield better results than delt and thigh injection, which I concur..

Short esters all the way!

 

[Nelson Montana]

This article/study will enlighten you..


The Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeutics, Vol 281, No. 1; 93-102, 1997

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/281/1/93.pdf

This study even proves the glute injections yield better results than delt and thigh injection, which I concur..

Short esters all the way!

You probably feel it's enlightening because your knowledge of the subject is lacking. I've been well aware of the superiority of glute injections for some time. From what I see, it just shows that the metabolite is still present after 30 days. That's very different from it being "active."

Maybe you saw something in it that I missed. If so, please point it out. I don't have time to read and analyze every 10 page document thrown at me so I can then go about correcting the inaccuracies of your claim.