Problem with Sumo Deads

[growin']

As I was finishing up DL work yesterday, I had a flaw in my form pointed out. Apparently on my last few sets, my hips were rising really high. However, my back was perfectly straight the whole way, no rounding at all. Here are some other interesting points:

-my power deadlift is only 20lbs heavier than my SLDL
-I am weak as SHIT on glute-ham raises
-squatting still kills my knees (haven't squatted for about 11/2 months now)

What do you guys think? Is this week hammies? I am thinking both hamstrings and glutes need to come up.

 

[Arioch]

Yep.

 

[ZZuluZ]

I have exactly these same problems:

"-my power deadlift is only 20lbs heavier than my SLDL
-I am weak as SHIT on glute-ham raises "

What I don't understand is....if my SLDL is close to my DL's... why are the hamstrings of all things, the weak link??

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

Two things. Even though the biceps femoris functions more as a knee flexor than a hip extensor, it will contribute to stability of the hips, especially as it pertains to a sumo deadlift, given the abdution of the thighs.

And it can be a proportion thing as well. My deadlift looks like a sloppy RDL, but the weight moves.

 

[growin']

ZZuluZ, I think we have strong hips and a strong low back, and those take over in these lifts.

Arioch, I hate to admit it, but I can hardly do a glute-ham raise with body weight through the full range of motion. Would you:
1. Complete as many full reps as possible (probably only one), then do a few negatives? I am thinking this would only aid in reversal strength, tear down alot of fibers, and strain the CNS. Maybe it could help initially though?

2. Build up reverse hyper strength, bent legged GM's, pull throughs, and possibly leg curls. Then go back to glute hams

3. Give up lifting and become a world renowned stamp collector!

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Two things. Even though the biceps femoris functions more as a knee flexor than a hip extensor, it will contribute to stability of the hips, especially as it pertains to a sumo deadlift, given the abdution of the thighs. "

You're gonna have to forgive my ignorance but would you please clarify. How are the highs abducting? And how do you suggest training the hamstrings as to aid in hip stabilization?

"
And it can be a proportion thing as well. My deadlift looks like a sloppy RDL, but the weight moves."

Well, my legs are very short, but I'm only 5'8. Does this explain it somewhat?

Seems I'm just using my back. I'm using about zero leg drive. \

About glute ham raises: I'm not using a machine, but I think I could only pull off 1-2 reps with a machine. Without one I can't even pull off one. In fact, they're almost useless. I can't lower myself eccentrically What should I do??

-Zulu

 

[CytoMel]

I am gonna suggest sled dragging to bring up your deadlifts. I think its the best for deadlifts but it is overlooked, I know I overlooked it for awhie too. The sled will bring up your deadlift fast.

Actually I am working on a new program where I max on a different type of deadlift every week and also drag the sled almst every night. So far 3 weeks of PR's. I have a very good deadlifters build so I am doing this now. I will be going on a 10 day vacation but I will continue it when I return and keep updating on the progress.

 

[growin']

I want to start sled dragging. A friend of mine is building one for me, but it is taking forever for him to finish! I have given up on squatting for a while as I keep getting injured. Squats just never feel right.

I LOVE deads though. I am going to have a dead speed day and a max day that will be either good morning or deadlift variations. I will use front squats and overhead squats as assistance, but thats it. I figure this should work fine as a strongman base.

But above all, I am going to start hitting those hams!

 

[Arioch]

Growin'

I would do pretty much #1, using assisted reps to get more work in. Use your hands to take some of the weight, and concentrate on using less help from your arms each workout.

You're gonna have to forgive my ignorance but would you please clarify. How are the highs abducting?

They already are when you are set up for a sumo deadlift. This slightly alters the recruitment patterns wrt the biceps femoris which shares a common insertion point with the semitendinosus. When the knee is partially flexed, the biceps femoris functions to rotate the leg outward, which one should be doing in order to push the knees out over the toes.

Train both aspects, hip extension, with GM's, reverse hypers, pull throughs, etc. Knee flexion via manual ham curls, etc.

Dimel deadlifts should hit both aspects of the hamstrings.

If one is specifically weak in knee flexion, this is the one case where seated leg curls can be of assistance. Important to ensure that nothing else is recruited when performing this exercise.

Zulu, you can also use the bands attached to something in back of you to take part of your weight. You can alter the amount of assistance the bands give you by giving yourself more slack as you get stronger.

Also, you can do them on a lat pulldown machine, provided the seat is large enough. Hold the bar of the pulldown machine behind your head, with enough weight on the stack to keep you from plumeting to a concussion. As time goes by, reduce the weight that is counter-balancing you.

 

[Arioch]

Sled dragging is great. To really work the hamstrings, pull up a hill. Lean forward and you will work them even more.

A word of caution. After doing this for the first time, do not assume when you mutter under your breath about your ass hurting that no one will overhear. You may hear about this one for quite some time.

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Important to ensure that nothing else is recruited when performing this exercise. "

Nothing else? Isn't the gastronemius intended to help flex the knee? Or are you referring to hand support?

Interesting about the hamstring curls: I always assumed their were useless.

Too bad about the other advice; I don't have the luxury of bands, sleds, lat pulldowns, etc...

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

Actually, I was referring to hip movement. What you do not want is hip or glute involvement. Concentrate on actually trying to isolate the hamstring.

And no, leg curls are not completely useless, just decidely inferior. In some specific cases, certain machines can be usefull if a muscle imbalance is limiting performance.

And you can get bands pretty cheaply now.

 

[ZZuluZ]

So a concerted attempt at avoiding hyperridation?

Won't it allow for great load? Seems quite natural...

-Zulu

 

[Arioch]

Well, it will allow a greater load, but I am theorizing (I can use that word since this is my field, otherwise I would be guessing) that one of the problems is a specific weakness in the biceps femoris, and you need to strengthen this. It is rather like focusing on your triceps when you need to work on your lockout.

The hamstrings are already getting hit from a variety of exercises which are not helping resolve the problem, so focus as specifically as possible on fixing this one minor detail and see if it has any effect.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Well, there are few people whose word I take at face value....but yours is one of them.

Hamstring curls are in.

What I want to know is how knee flexion has any carry over to the deadlift. I guess I just don't see it.

-Zulu

 

[growin']

I'd say they support the trunk and help push it forward as you are pulling the bar back. The straightening of the legs happens with the squeezing of the hamms too......I guess

 

[Arioch]

Carry over to sumo, moreso than conventional. See the aspect of adduction that is occuring, as well as rotation of the femur. One of the lesser known, so to speak, functions of the biceps femoris is to assist in rotation of the femur, this is made easier by the bifurcation of the heads.

In conventional, there would be even less activation.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Well, I pull evenly conventional and sumo.

One more observation: my lats are always sore after deadlifts. It's like I'm only lifting with my lower/upper back.

I know my form is crap.

Thanks for the information concerning the hamstrings

-Zulu

 

[Lumberg]

Ever try to do pull ups after deadlifts? You won't get as many as if you begin your wo with pull ups. Not quite sure why but I do know that DLing hits your lats hard.

Lots of guys, like needsize, advocate DLS for great back width and I am in that camp.

JC

 

[growin']

Deads tax your lats because they support your body as you pull, but they also greatly strain the CNS, which I'm sure also affects pull up ability. What do you think Arioch, is that on the money?

 

[Arioch]

Yes, as well as the fact that the teres major and rhomboids are utilized in both, as well as portions of the trapezius.