possible to target upper chest?

[Elite_Fry]

cos mine is lacking and its lame

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Try it and find out. Some people claim they have been able to, but it's hard to say, since obviously their chest grew anyways from the time spent working it.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

BTW - Mine is lacking too, and I'm a big incline press fan. So....

 

[ZZuluZ]

No, it is physiologically impossible.

Incline benching is putting your lowerpecs at a mechanical disadvantage.

-Zulu

 

[onemind]

Try doing front shoulder presses.

 

[b fold the truth]

Do some inclines...with a closer grip. They really tend to emphasize my upper pecs...(de-emphasize my lower pecs). Does it really matter as long as my upper pecs are being hit? Naaaa...

B True

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Do some inclines...with a closer grip. They really tend to emphasize my upper pecs...(de-emphasize my lower pecs). Does it really matter as long as my upper pecs are being hit? Naaaa...
"

Well, by flat benching you're working the lower and upper pecs.

By incline benching you're simply working the lower pecs less.

I don't think it's a better deal but maybe it's just me.

-Zulu

 

[b fold the truth]

If you are doing a pressing movement which involves the chest area...and you work the lower pecs less...then the upper pecs would be taking more of the work load.

You can argue this point all that you want...but people do inclines for a reason. They stress the upper chest area more, as well as the shoulders. I bring my grip in a bit closer to take some of the stress off of my shoulders, seems to work for me.

B True

 

[MarshallPenniford]

They haven't stressed my upper pecs any more.

 

[ZZuluZ]

They do not stress your upper pecs more, this is a physiological fact.

They're not talking over the workload; the workload is reduced. Which is why you incline less than you flat bench.

-Zulu

 

[onemind]

ZZuluz was wondering if you and Bfold are but budies.

 

[b fold the truth]

onemind:



I must be missing something...lol.

Hey...if inclines don't work the upper chest more...then I guess that any bodybuilder with a lagging chest is just flat out of luck when they try to bring that body part up...flat out of luck.

Sorry it doesn't work for you...but it sure does for me.

B True

 

[MarshallPenniford]

BFold - So seriously. How do you think I can "bring up" my upper chest? I really wish this was possible.

 

[b fold the truth]

MarshallPenniford: I am giving your my honest sincere opinion. It is NOT scientific fact...just my opinion.

I think that several things can be done to bring out the upper chest. I think that doing inclines with your grip a bit closer (maybe and inch or so closer with each hand) than normal might help. Of course doing incline dbells should help too.

This may sound strange but I did like to do these from time to time (not very often though). I would set an incline utility bench between the cable crossover machine. I would grab the cable attachments from the BOTTOM cables and then do incline cable flyes. I thought it might have helped a bit.

YOU must find what works for YOU. I do feel that you have to have a very solid base of a thick chest from flat work before you can even feel it in the upper chest.

Just my honest opinion.

B True

 

[strong island]

If inclines don't emphasize the upper region than why would people do them?

Because they do emphasize the upper region of the pectorals.

To each his own.

 

[ZZuluZ]

People do it THINKING that they're emphasizing the upper pectorals.

In a sense, they are, but in reality they're really only taking the lower pecs out of the equation.

The flat bench is better.

This is specifics aside. Technique will factor into this and where you lower the bar, etc.....

So for some Incline bench will effectively be more productive.

As a general rule, unless you're getting pretty advanced I suggest to stick to flat benching.

[Unless you're an athlete like a shotputter, etc....]

JMHO

-Zulu

 

[Thaibox]

Bfold is too nice of a bro to say it. But I'm not. Zulu, you're an asshole. I'm tired of reading your arrogant responses to every single fucking thread that comes about with bullshit that you spew as gospel. "X is fact", "X is physiologically impossible", "I know many vets and PhDs that agree with ..." You are 16. Get some experience, grow some muscle, and come back later. This is exactly the type of attitude that is going to get your ass kicked many times in your life. Learn to shut the fuck up, be respectful, make friends, and learn something. Jesus

 

[sorerotators]

MarshallPenniford: I am giving your my honest sincere opinion. It is NOT scientific fact...just my opinion.

I think that several things can be done to bring out the upper chest. I think that doing inclines with your grip a bit closer (maybe and inch or so closer with each hand) than normal might help. Of course doing incline dbells should help too.

This may sound strange but I did like to do these from time to time (not very often though). I would set an incline utility bench between the cable crossover machine. I would grab the cable attachments from the BOTTOM cables and then do incline cable flyes. I thought it might have helped a bit.

YOU must find what works for YOU. I do feel that you have to have a very solid base of a thick chest from flat work before you can even feel it in the upper chest.

Just my honest opinion.

B True

Yes, its big B's opinion, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHERS.

Bodybuilders have been doing muscle target specific work for years and years now. Why? Because it works and they see results.

You want to increase your upper chest? Do incline BB/DB benches followed by incline flys. Maybe play around with the incline degree until YOU feel it hits your upper chest the best.

 

[DirtyJa]

I agree that doing incline works more of your upper chest, but i think what zulu is saying is that when the mussel grows, it doesn't't remember what section of that mussel got worked harder. It just knows the whole mussel needs to grow.

 

[coolcolj]

The pec muscles while having a common insertion at the shoulder do fan out at the inner part of the chest, so you can stress the individual fibres of the chest depending on the angle of the exercise.

My upper chest is weak, as is with most people. Everybody has big lower pecs, but upper pecs need to be worked on. I have managed to bring my up with 45 degree incline dumbells BP with my palms facing each other.

This works well for me because I do dips for my triceps, which also happens to hit the extreme lower and outter sections of my pecs nicely.

 

[strong island]

The pec muscles while having a common insertion at the shoulder do fan out at the inner part of the chest, so you can stress the individual fibres of the chest depending on the angle of the exercise.

My upper chest is weak, as is with most people. Everybody has big lower pecs, but upper pecs need to be worked on. I have managed to bring my up with 45 degree incline dumbells BP with my palms facing each other.

This works well for me because I do dips for my triceps, which also happens to hit the extreme lower and outter sections of my pecs nicely.

I agree, Most people definately neglect their upper chest. This is no-no if you consider yourself a bodybuilder. I am also guilty of this. My upper chest is one of my focus areas right now.

For those that aren't familiar with the pectorals(major) it is also originates from the clavicles as well as the sternal area.

 

[Manu]

This is interesting question.
I'm a beguiner but let me give my 2 cents.
I really think that to have a good upper pecs the overall pecs have too be big. I never saw one guy with upper pecs well developed that didn't have the lower pecs also even bigger.
It is only recently that i actually feel my upper pecs when i do incline bench. what helped me to that was to think i was making a push movement (like pushing a wall) with strenght coming from pecs and not just throwing my arms up. That made some kind of switch in the way i was thinking the movement and actually i start feeling very distinctively the upper pecs working. i think you know what i am talking about

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Bfold is too nice of a bro to say it. But I'm not. Zulu, you're an asshole. I'm tired of reading your arrogant responses to every single fucking thread that comes about with bullshit that you spew as gospel. "X is fact", "X is physiologically impossible", "I know many vets and PhDs that agree with ..." You are 16. Get some experience, grow some muscle, and come back later. This is exactly the type of attitude that is going to get your ass kicked many times in your life. Learn to shut the fuck up, be respectful, make friends, and learn something. Jesus"

IF you think my response is arrogant you need to get some physchiatric help. I'm only trying to offer my input. I even said it was my most humble of opinions and you shouldn't take my word for it.

Stop addressing yourself to me.

-Zulu

 

[strong island]

This is interesting question.
I'm a beguiner but let me give my 2 cents.
I really think that to have a good upper pecs the overall pecs have too be big. I never saw one guy with upper pecs well developed that didn't have the lower pecs also even bigger.
It is only recently that i actually feel my upper pecs when i do incline bench. what helped me to that was to think i was making a push movement (like pushing a wall) with strenght coming from pecs and not just throwing my arms up. That made some kind of switch in the way i was thinking the movement and actually i start feeling very distinctively the upper pecs working. i think you know what i am talking about

It does take a while..but to get a great chest workout while benching you must focus on using your chest. I hate seeing kids in the gym benching with their shoulder girdle moving all over the place.

With your shoulders locked down and back you can really FEEL the pec contracting with incline or flat.

 

[TC2]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I truly think that incline barbell press's have helped me build a full upper chest.

I know that when I do them, I get an obvious pump in my upper chest, that is not as noticeable when I do flat bench only.

 

[strong island]

INCLINES DO HELP BUILD THE UPPER CHEST!!!!!!!!

I don't think zulu reads the shit he is writing....If you de-emphasize the lower chest THEN THE UPPER CHEST IS BEING EMPHASIZED.

If you do Reverse curls you are de-emphasizing the biceps brachii by putting them at a mechanical disadvantage...so you are emphasizing the brachialis...you can't lift as much but the brachialis is working harder....

Does Zulu do inclines? I hope so!

 

[ZZuluZ]

Think again.

Putting something at a mechanical disadvantage does not place the stress on something else.

That is why people Incline less than they bench.

Capiche?

"you can't lift as much but the brachialis is working harder...."

Source please.

-Zulu

 

[Thaibox]

I can't believe I'm the only one getting tired of this 16 year old's bullshit

 

[Arioch]

I discuss this a bit in this thread:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=150391

 

[strong island]

Think again.

Putting something at a mechanical disadvantage does not place the stress on something else.

That is why people Incline less than they bench.

Capice?

"you can't lift as much but the brachialis is working harder...."

Source please.

-Zulu

Are you trying to say capiche...well don't it hurts my ears when you say it!!!

Listen up diesel...if you feel that way then don't do inclines.

FYI....The biceps brachii is inserted into the radius. The brachialis to the ulna...figure it out.

 

[Lestat]

There is no "Upper Peck" and "Lower Peck".. its all one muscle.

Incline press works the muscle at a different angle, and thus can affed the way that muscle hypertrophies, which effects how it looks.

Incline will help fill out the upper portion of your pectoral muscle more.

 

[gymtime]

I'll just throw in my .02 for what it's worth. While I do believe that a complete chest workout should include lifts from all angles, at least flat and incline, I think people tend to overestimate the effects of "working upper" or "working lower". As long as you're doing a complete chest workout, it will be very difficult to increase the size of your upper or lower chest based on emphasizing a certain lift over another. And, nine times out of ten, complaints about chest have to do not so much with building the muscle, but with removing the fat that's covering it.

 

[gettinlarger]

I can't believe I'm the only one getting tired of this 16 year old's bullshit

lol

 

[ZZuluZ]

Arioch,

Which one of us is right?

-Zulu

 

[Advaik]

There is no "Upper Peck" and "Lower Peck".. its all one muscle.

Incline press works the muscle at a different angle, and thus can affed the way that muscle hypertrophies, which effects how it looks.

Incline will help fill out the upper portion of your pectoral muscle more.

It may be one muscle, but it's split into two heads. The Sternal (lower pec) and the Clavicular (upper pec).

 

[Arioch]

While the pec is all one muscle, different angles as well as different hand spacing affect the manner in which it is recruited. Close grip inclines show greater EMG activity as well as MVIC in the "upper pec. Several studies in the bench sticky display this.


"The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is affected by both hand spacing as well as trunk inclination. The narrower the grip, the greater the activation, as well as the greater the inclination, the greater the activation. There are several factors for this, including the fact that vertical bar displacement is greatest during an incline press. This is also due to the fact that the clavicular head is involved in horizontal flexion and adduction in addition to pure flexion. The clavicular head will maintain its function as a flexor of the glenohumeral joint until humerus moves above the horizontal position. This is why it is rather inactive when the torso is vertical, as little flexion is occurring. "

 

[ZZuluZ]

In that case, my apologies for the misinformation.

-Zulu

 

[The Dude]

No, it is physiologically impossible.

Incline benching is putting your lowerpecs at a mechanical disadvantage.

-Zulu

You just contradicted yourself. Yes, you can target your upper chest because you have two sets of pec muscles (major and minor). Inclines bring out your upper chest nicely. People married to flat and decline benches without any inclince work often have granny tits. They don't have an aesthetically pleasing male physique.

 

[bignate73]

just for clarification, pec major and pec minor are not sternal head and clavicular. pec minor is located deep to pec major and contributes little to the shape of your chest and also serves a different function than pec major.

 

[strong island]

In that case, my apologies for the misinformation.

-Zulu

told you so...told you so..told you so

Just kidding bro...thats what the board is for.

 

[ZZuluZ]

What I have read has indicated that incline benching [and similar examples] only put other muscles at a mechanical disadvantage without further stressing the muscle intended.

If there are valid EMG studies to prove otherwise, than I'll gladly change my point of view.

Thanks to Arioch for clearing that up.

-Zulu

 

[MarshallPenniford]

There is no "Upper Peck" and "Lower Peck".. its all one muscle.

Incline press works the muscle at a different angle, and thus can affed the way that muscle hypertrophies, which effects how it looks.

Incline will help fill out the upper portion of your pectoral muscle more.

It's not all one muscle.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

The EMG studies are so useless. I can find you two that show opposite results. The reality is that even though a movement can favor the clavicular portion over the sternal, most likely when a heavy enough load is placed upon the pectoralis, it leads to full recruitment from both heads/muscles in the group.

I worked out when I was younger using all flat bench and devloped my chest. 10+ years later I came back and did it again with predominantly inclines. Both times, my chest has had identical shape throughout the development process.

Does someone have photos showing otherwise? Their lower pecs staying the same size, or even shrinking, while their upper pecs grew?

Lastly, everyone should go have a look at what the clavicular head actually looks like. It's not going to make a dramatic difference in the appearance of the upper chest area. Here's a link:

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.html

It would look pretty damn weird to see those HIGHLY developed in someone -- I've never seen it.

 

[needsize]

oct21-01-sidesmall.jpg

I can't believe this debate keeps coming up over and over again, yes you can stress the upper pecs, I don't care what someone read in a book once, I know what I've seen and experienced. Back in the day, after years of flat benching, i had the granny tit look. I decided to change that, so I developed a program that was designed to build upper chest, and just maintain the mass I had developed in the lower chest. Well somehow I managed to more than double the size of my upper chest WITHOUT gaining any more mass on my lower.

I'm big on proof, so I'll post mine, this pic is the result of my efforts. The pic is old (I've posted it before) and I've gained another 20lbs since then, but using mostly incline movements, I have almost managed to balance out my pecs. Anyone who says they can build a substantial upper chest using only flat movements, show us a pic of what your efforts have gotten you. Otherwise, CAN IT, I'm really sick of the SSAlexSS's of the world with no muscle or training experience, preaching their theories like it's gospel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Come on Needsize. I have both training experience and muscle. Don't compare me to SSAlex -- jeez!

Do you have a before pic -- I have seen this shot you put up before. Also, your upper pec doesn't look that large to me -- you do have great pecs overall though.

 

[Vortexx]

Try the following routine for some time:

- 45" incline benchpress 8-6-4(last set=triple dropset)
- 45" incline flye 14-10-8(triple dropset)
- 45" incline dumbell press 14-10-8(triple dropset)

finish with some work for lowe pec

14-10-8(triple dropset)

choose one of the following:

- weighted dips
- decline benchpress
- pec-deck
- cable cross

It's hard to exclusively target one part of a muscle in most cases there is considerable overlap so thats why we do 3 incline exercises to make sure the upper pecs are fried and only need one exercise to kill the remaining lower pecs as they already received secondary stimulation from the previousa 3 exercises.


Don't worry about the upper pecs getting larger than the lower pecs, i still have to encounter the first person with "reverse granny tits syndrome". Actually I think your pecs will fill out nicely (within your genetic bounderies offcoarse)

 

[needsize]

Come on Needsize. I have both training experience and muscle. Don't compare me to SSAlex -- jeez!

Do you have a before pic -- I have seen this shot you put up before. Also, your upper pec doesn't look that large to me -- you do have great pecs overall though.

It was aimed more at zulu, especially if he really is only 16, no one is an expert at that age. I know the upper pec isn't that large, but I've put a lot of mass on there compared to what was there before. I'll have to hunt around for some before pics

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Cool. BTW - when I say upper pec, please realize that I am referring to just the clavicular portion - you can see it on that link I referenced up above. Like I said, I've never seen that portion highly developed on anyone. Again, your chest is damn impressive.

Also, I can't comment on acheiving full development from flat bench alone, but I think I have seen this in people that I never have seen doing incline - not the most convincing anectdotal evidence, but it's all I can offer. Other than that, in my own case, I certainly have had no problems developing my lower chest area using only inclines. Like I said my "upper chest" (speaking of the whole area in general here) isn't that full, and all I do really is incline work. And, as I said in my first reply to the guy at the very top, maybe it's possible for some!

 

[ZZuluZ]

"It was aimed more at zulu, especially if he really is only 16, no one is an expert at that age."

Where did I say I was an expert??? I was only offering my opinion and I even specified as such.

Everything I have read has lead me to believe that yo ucannot isolate certain parts of a muscle. It doesn't seem to make sense.

And no amount of anecdotal evidence will make me thing otherwise.

Now, in light of what Arioch has posted I am no longer certain of my position. It's hard to tell who is right and who is wrong.

Seeing a bunch of before and after pics is meaningless. You have to establish the link between correlation and causation, and this cannot be done anecdotally.

-Zulu

 

[needsize]

zulu, you never stated in so many words that you are an expert, but when you make blanket statements saying in no uncertain terms that something can't be done, then that is how you're coming across. The only evidence you had to back up your claims was stuff that you had read, I'm not trying to be an asshole but that doesn't mean shit, especially if you're only 16, you can't possibly have studied the subject THAT much. I have been training seriously for over ten years, and have been researching the subject extensively for that entire time, yet I still don't make statements like the ones you made.

As this is an open board, everyone is more than welcome to post their theories on any subject, but as a 16 year old you don't have the training experience to back up what you are posting. I think it's important for people reading these posts to know who they are getting their advice from!

There are some very advanced lifters that hang on this board, take a lesson from the way they conduct themselves.

 

[The Dude]

just for clarification, pec major and pec minor are not sternal head and clavicular. pec minor is located deep to pec major and contributes little to the shape of your chest and also serves a different function than pec major.

Thanks for that. I know it didn't sound quite right as I was typing it, but my memory is fuzzy lately about a lot of things.

 

[strong island]

He is sixteen...LOL...this thread is fucking hilarious.

BOTTOM LINE: If you don't believe inclines target the upper chest then DON'T do them.

I will continue to use inclines......nuff sed.

peace.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Look folks, I shouldn't have stated my views as fact. That's the only thing I'm going to apologize for.

Age is a meaningless concept.

"but as a 16 year old you don't have the training experience to back up what you are posting. "

Common man, you know that's bull. I made some errors in this thread [and perhaps in other threads]. I'll admit to that. But to brush off everything I say because I'm younger than you, is quite dissapointing.

It is clear that on this board an invisible hierarchy has been set up amongst those with the most impressive lifts/most impressive poundages. I think it's unfortunate. I'd like to think we can all learn from each other.

Just maybe we might have an intelligent debate about whether incline hit the upper chest more than regular benchpreses. But it always degenerates into 'you're 16, you don't know shit, look at my 20 inch guns'

Peace.

-Zulu

 

[b fold the truth]

There is a lot to age and experience. I began liftining at age 16 and 152 pounds. I couldn't bench 95 pounds or squat the smith machine bar. The first time I did a deadlift was with 135...nearly killed me. I got my "impressive lifts" from years of hard work, dedication, intelligent training and lots of mistakes finding what works...for me.

B True

 

[needsize]

Zulu, you are dead wrong, and I'm sorry you took my comments personally. There is no individual hierarchy on this board, in all honesty I don't know what 99% of the regulars even look like. I'm not brushing anything off cuz you're younger than me, but what you think you know at 16 will change over time more times than you can count, or at least it should. I know this comes across like someone's dad.....and I had to walk 10 miles to school, uphill both ways.....but that isn't the case. I'm only 27 myeslf, but have been hitting the weights hard since I started highschool, which was quite a while ago. And one thing that I know is that training knowlege accumulates over time with consistent training. And at 16, your body wont even let you build any serious mass, so what exactly are you basing your opinions on? If I am going to follow the advice or heed their knowlege, then I'm going to want to know where it comes from? In my case, it comes from years of my own training, coupled with training alongside some of the best in the sport, both bodybuilders and powerlifters.

And as far as "'you're 16, you don't know shit, look at my 20 inch guns'", if you're saying that is my attitude, then you don't read much of what I post. I never preach, nor do I put down others, and the pic I posted had nothing to do with one-up-manship, it was to show what I have done using inclines. I come hear to help, but also to learn from others who have a different view point than mine.

 

[Lumbuss]

THis thread is funny. Anyone who knows any thing about muscle anatomy and physiology would bust out laughing at this thread.

I like how everyone comes on here and starts flaming Zulu, and calling him ignorant and arrogant. I have news for you guys, he is exactly right, and anyone who is disagreeing with him is wrong.

Let me make this real big so the meatheads talking about how they did this and that to get their upper pecs big can read it.

you cant isolate your upper pecs, and if you try you will fail

It is as simple as that period. There is no arguing with science, anatomy, and physiology. All your arguments about how you increased the size of your upper chest are weak and pathetic. Your chest will hypertrophy, or atrophy. You cannot isolate your upper pecs. Go try if you want, im not going to turn this into a debabte because zulu already gave you all the correct answer to the original question. Have a nice day, go do some inclines and be an ignorant jackass just like everyone who says overtaining is impossible and stays small year after year. You all laugh at those in your gym who do curls 7 days a week hoping for larger biceps, but you are just one small step above them in the ignorance and misinformed line. Those who know and are experts also laugh just as hard at you when they see you doing inclines to "hit your upper pecs." Have a nice day, you guys are flat out wrong and your personal experience cannot stand against science and physiology.

 

[ZZuluZ]

All I want to point out is that, on some occasions, what I have to say may be helpful to others regardless of whether I have years of experience myself.

I've done a great deal of reading. And I plan on continueing to read. People often have experiences that go both ways; to me science is the true answer.

Perhaps I was wrong in this thread, but I find it quite dissapointing to see all the responses I got. "LOL, this guy is 16..."

-Zulu

 

[Lumbuss]

All I want to point out is that, on some occasions, what I have to say may be helpful to others regardless of whether I have years of experience myself.

I've done a great deal of reading. And I plan on continueing to read. People often have experiences that go both ways; to me science is the true answer.

Perhaps I was wrong in this thread, but I find it quite dissapointing to see all the responses I got. "LOL, this guy is 16..."

-Zulu

Actually, you were originally correct. If you belive these guys and start to belive that you can isolate your upper pecs, that is the same as them telling you that 2+2=5. Keep reading, but be careful what you read. Most of the information out there is worthless, most people who read this thred will end up believing that inclines do target the upper pecs because the majority of the people think they do. It hard to sort through all the bullshit floating around out there.

 

[needsize]

THis thread is funny. Anyone who knows any thing about muscle anatomy and physiology would bust out laughing at this thread.

I like how everyone comes on here and starts flaming Zulu, and calling him ignorant and arrogant. I have news for you guys, he is exactly right, and anyone who is disagreeing with him is wrong.

Let me make this real big so the meatheads talking about how they did this and that to get their upper pecs big can read it.

you cant isolate your upper pecs, and if you try you will fail

It is as simple as that period. There is no arguing with science, anatomy, and physiology. All your arguments about how you increased the size of your upper chest are weak and pathetic. Your chest will hypertrophy, or atrophy. You cannot isolate your upper pecs. Go try if you want, im not going to turn this into a debabte because zulu already gave you all the correct answer to the original question. Have a nice day, go do some inclines and be an ignorant jackass just like everyone who says overtaining is impossible and stays small year after year. You all laugh at those in your gym who do curls 7 days a week hoping for larger biceps, but you are just one small step above them in the ignorance and misinformed line. Those who know and are experts also laugh just as hard at you when they see you doing inclines to "hit your upper pecs." Have a nice day, you guys are flat out wrong and your personal experience cannot stand against science and physiology.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when guys come to this board and preach like their word is gospel. Not only that but you have the nerve to come here and start name calling "ignorant jackasses" and such. Our arguements are weak and pathetic..... Okay Mr. Expert, your retarded rant has totally convinced me that all my years or training and research are wrong, and in fact, I must have just lucked into the results that I have gotten. It sure was a god thing that you were here to save us from our own ignorance, thank you jeebus for sending this guy to the training board.......

Zulu, no hard feelings I hope, I wasn't commenting so much on your age, a guy could be 30, but if he hadn't trained for all that long, my response would have been the same.

 

[Imnotdutch]

There is no individual hierarchy on this board, in all honesty I don't know what 99% of the regulars even look like.

I disagree with you on this point.....and agree with Zulu. A hierarchy does exist and a good position can be derived through several means:

1) You consistently post good knowledgable answers to posts (for example, Cornholio comes to mind).

2) You can show good results (e.g. Bfold- when pertaining to strength training, PJay for powerlifting).

3) You post alot but do it with such conviction that everybody assumes that you know your stuff. This is helped if you can quote similar sources of information as posters from the groups above.

This is not confined to this board.......it happens on many boards. A big problem is that most boards do not distinguish between those that are knowledgable in gaining size, strength in specific lifts or general strength. This is why occasionally we end up with the farcical situations where bodybuilders try to tell powerlifters how to get strong, and powerlifters try to tell bodybuilders how to bench properly even though the two groups have very different goals (a powerlifting bench is a lot different to a bodybuilders bench).

Disclaimer: there are many memebrs that are knowledgable- I only mentioned the names above because they came into my head first.

 

[needsize]

Imnotdutch, you do have a point there. But what I meant was that there isn't a highschool like clique here like on the chat board, there is kinda of a hierarchy, but it is based on members that have demonstrated through various means, that they know what they are talking about. And there is always room for memebers with the knowlege and experience to jion that hierarchy. It's not a bunch of meatheads sitting around comparing their 20" arms

 

[Lumbuss]

This is exactly what I'm talking about when guys come to this board and preach like their word is gospel. Not only that but you have the nerve to come here and start name calling "ignorant jackasses" and such. Our arguements are weak and pathetic..... Okay Mr. Expert, your retarded rant has totally convinced me that all my years or training and research are wrong, and in fact, I must have just lucked into the results that I have gotten. It sure was a god thing that you were here to save us from our own ignorance, thank you jeebus for sending this guy to the training board.......

Zulu, no hard feelings I hope, I wasn't commenting so much on your age, a guy could be 30, but if he hadn't trained for all that long, my response would have been the same.

i dont know where to start. i called you all ignorant jackasses because you are all wrong, and this one guy is right, and you all start flamining him. do you realize how stupid and pathetic it is when somone says something that is 100% correct, then everyone jumps on him and says he is wrong? it looks terrible for all of you, and terrible for the board. what do your results have to do with anything? do you workout, i hope so. do you diet, i assume you do. do you take steroids, maybe you do. of course you will get results. i dont give a shit about your results. what im talking about is what you and others said. you claimed that you can emphasize your upper pecs and hypertrophy them and target them by doing inclines, which is absolutley false. your results cant argue with muscle physiology man. the reason you may have a big chest is because you work your chest. wheather you work your chest in a way to get maximal results, or wheather you work your chest in a way to get submaximal results (inclines) is irrelevant. it is a fact that you cant emphasize your upper pecs by doing inclines peroid. they are better than nothing, but they wont hit your upper chest harder and stimulate more hypertrophy than if you do flat db presses, they will actually stimulate less hypertrophy because your delts are supporting much of the load. i dont give a shit to save you from anything, i just found this thread amusing and pathetic at the same time. go do inclines if you want, they wont make your upper chest proportionatley larger than your lower, sorry but they wont. that is a fact. there is no need to argue, like i said your experience means nothing, you can make gains from doing alot of things, but you cant increase your upper chest and not lower chest by doing inclines. inclines wont make your upper chest bigger than flat presses, just smaller. what dont you get? you should have known this a long time ago, its nothing new. like i said there are alot of bullshit myths out there, and you have bought into one and are too stubborn to admit that you have.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

But, it would be nice if there was some realization of the fact that correlation does not equal causation. Which I think is how people try to explain things quite often, when in fact there may be another explanation altogether.

I prefer to look at things scientifically myself, but I do give some weight to anecdotal evidence. What I find interesting is those that prefer anecdotal evidence (BFold comes to mind) often seem to ignore anecdotal evidence to the contrary. My experience with incline's and flats are a good example of this. Not too many people here have performed, albeit inadvertently, this kind of "experiment".

Not trying to "stir the pot" any more here, just pointing out an interesting observation.

 

[needsize]

Big surprise, I disagree, I have never seen conclusive scientific evidence that you can't hypertrophy specific areas of a muscle, especially larger ones like chest. But I have seen, and experienced tons of first hand evidence that suggest the opposite.

 

[Lumbuss]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/foru...perpage=20&highlight=upper chest&pagenumber=1

 

[needsize]

So are you saying then that I can pick just one exercise, say flat bench, and that can be my entire chest routine, and with that one exercise I can build a large, well balanced chest?

 

[Lumbuss]

What im saying is that inclines wont target your upper chest. I would advise you to do flat db press, but since you are bigger than me and know all the time honored myths you obviousley will stick to inclines. Make sure you do exercises to lengthen your tri's and bi's too so they aren't disproportionate to the large upper chest you have built using inclines. And dont eat any fat or you will become a lard ass.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

So are you saying then that I can pick just one exercise, say flat bench, and that can be my entire chest routine, and with that one exercise I can build a large, well balanced chest?

I have. Twice. Once with flat bench and then again with inclince. Both times, there has been no difference in the way my chest looks. Not saying this proves anything, just worth noting. It does support what the science shows, as of today, about fiber recruitment in muscle groups.

 

[ZZuluZ]

It seems perhaps I wasn't as wrong as I was made out to be.

In any case, how about we just address the issue respectfully?

I dislike anecdotal evidence because it cannot establish causation and correlation. The simple fact that you've changed exercise may promote growth. This says nothing of the exercise itself.

That is why physiology, anatomy, biomechanics are essential in answering such questions.

-Zulu

 

[Imnotdutch]

Imnotdutch, you do have a point there. But what I meant was that there isn't a highschool like clique here like on the chat board, there is kinda of a hierarchy, but it is based on members that have demonstrated through various means, that they know what they are talking about. And there is always room for memebers with the knowlege and experience to jion that hierarchy. It's not a bunch of meatheads sitting around comparing their 20" arms

Although I agree that some people achieve a high position for good reason, there is some cliqueness (is that a word?). You can see this in many threads where some arguments are dismissed because several people support an opposing or even marginally different view. This is by no means confined to the training board.....I will stick my neck out and prob upset a few people by saying that on the powerlifting board some followers of Westside (altohugh NOT all!!) are like this. That situation is worse than anything on this board. Alot of arguing could have been saved if people stopped to think for a minute or two.

JFTR I for one cringed when some of the powerlifters headed over here and started preaching about good bench form using lats etc, when that isn't what bodybuilders want. The deadlift thread was a good one too hehehe. Some people have a hard time accepting that different people have different goals and hence methods. Tis a shame because the people involved make good contributions on the PL board.

I can see me getting the silent treatment from some people now hehehe.

Later.

 

[needsize]

What im saying is that inclines wont target your upper chest. I would advise you to do flat db press, but since you are bigger than me and know all the time honored myths you obviousley will stick to inclines. Make sure you do exercises to lengthen your tri's and bi's too so they aren't disproportionate to the large upper chest you have built using inclines. And dont eat any fat or you will become a lard ass.

Some of the time honored myths I do actually believe are true, targettting upper chest being one of them. I do think that with some of the larger muscle groups, you can hypertrophy specific areas, but I don't believe you can lengthen a tri or bi muscle as that would be changing the basic shape, and that I don't believe you can do.

Just becasue after so many years of training, I am kinda set in my ways, it doesn't mean that I'm not open to new ideas, that is why I hang around here. The intelligent debates are what make this board a place of learning, but they need to remain mature, and this one definitely got away from that for a while. When anyone comes here and states their opinion like it is beyond reproach, on an issue that is up for debate, then people are going to react.

 

[sorerotators]

THis thread is funny. Anyone who knows any thing about muscle anatomy and physiology would bust out laughing at this thread.

I like how everyone comes on here and starts flaming Zulu, and calling him ignorant and arrogant. I have news for you guys, he is exactly right, and anyone who is disagreeing with him is wrong.

Let me make this real big so the meatheads talking about how they did this and that to get their upper pecs big can read it.

you cant isolate your upper pecs, and if you try you will fail

It is as simple as that period. There is no arguing with science, anatomy, and physiology. All your arguments about how you increased the size of your upper chest are weak and pathetic. Your chest will hypertrophy, or atrophy. You cannot isolate your upper pecs. Go try if you want, im not going to turn this into a debabte because zulu already gave you all the correct answer to the original question. Have a nice day, go do some inclines and be an ignorant jackass just like everyone who says overtaining is impossible and stays small year after year. You all laugh at those in your gym who do curls 7 days a week hoping for larger biceps, but you are just one small step above them in the ignorance and misinformed line. Those who know and are experts also laugh just as hard at you when they see you doing inclines to "hit your upper pecs." Have a nice day, you guys are flat out wrong and your personal experience cannot stand against science and physiology.

Hey you stupid fuck. We are not saying you can isolate the upper chest. We are saying you can put more stress on the upper chest
and have better growth there.

Stupid fucker.

 

[Lumbuss]

Hey you stupid fuck. We are not saying you can isolate the upper chest. We are saying you can put more stress on the upper chest
and have better growth there.

Stupid fucker.

You have to be the smartest moron in town. You will not put more stress on the upper chest by doing inclines, you will be taking stress of the pecs, and placing it on the delts. Now how will this create better growth there?

 

[Screwball]

All bodybuilders must die!

Imnotdutch, I will never speak to you again because you hurt me and all of my powerlifting buddies feelings. Damn you man.

Just for the record, I believe that it is possible to target specific muscle bellies (not parts of a muscle belly per say) using various exercises. For example, inclines target the pec minor while declines target the pec major. The fact that one is activated to a lesser degree is irrelevant. The only important factor is that the exercise targets specific muscle bellies. In other words, if you believe that inclines are not more beneficial in filling in the upper chest than a flat or decline press then you are mistaken. I've seen it work for numerous lifters, myself included.

 

[strong island]

Holy shit I went to the gym and the thread doubled:

First: I love this board. Threads like this make it all worth it.

Second: Zulu..no disrespect intended.

Third: Much of this sport we love is still a lot of THEORY, and there are many "experts" who will take both sides of this argument.

Fourth: Vocabulary is very important here. We have to make sure we are all discussing the same thing. Lumbuss started using the term "isolate" which is different from "emphasize." I never said that inclines would isolate the upper chest.

Ok...I found this article which is a good read. The article discusses a study which tracked EMG activity in different areas of the chest during incline, decline and flat...with different hand positions.

Zulu...Even though we were all bitching at each other, I have learned something new today by researching this.

PS: I think since we are all on the board together everyday, we all get our periods at the same time.

ENJOY:
Variations In The Bench Press
by Tom McCullough MEd., MSS
The bench press may be the most popular and widely used exercise used for developing the chest (Thompson, 1994). But go into any gym today and you will see quite a few different variations being done. There’s the decline, the incline, the flat bench and to make things even more complicated, all of these can be done with dumbbells. Is one better than the others? Which one should you use and what does each develop?

Well, this is where we must begin to separate popular ‘gym myths’ from reality. First let’s look at the claims of many bodybuilders. Most believe the angle of the bench has lots to do with what part of the chest you will use. So it is a pretty common belief among weightlifters that the decline bench targets the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major (the lower pecs) and the incline bench hits the clavicular head of the pectoralis major (the upper pecs). So obviously the flat bench must hit a little of both. What about the grip position? Should we use a wide grip or is a narrow grip? I’m sure most of us have heard that a wide grip uses more chest and shoulders and a narrow grip uses more triceps.

Is this common advice just another fine example of the ‘gym myth’ or is there actually some science to back these anecdotal claims? Before we attempt to answer this burning question let’s first take a look at what really happens when the bench press is performed. As most of us are aware the major muscle used in the movement of the bench press is the pectoralis major. While the pectoralis major is actually one muscle, it has two heads -- the clavicular head and the sternocostal head. The clavicular head or the upper pecs originate at the middle part of the clavicle. The sternocostal head or lower pecs originate at the costal cartlidges of the first six ribs and the adjoining portion of the sternum. Both heads span the chest and eventually join and insert on the humerus or the bone of the upper arm. It is pretty much accepted by sport scientists that the upper pecs are responsible for shoulder flexion or moving the arm upward and the lower pecs are responsible for shoulder extension or moving the arm downward (Lockhart 1974). So at this point it still seems logical to believe that the decline position may actually hit the lower pecs and the incline will hit the upper pecs.

But wait...before we draw any conclusions, let’s take a quick look at some of the other muscles involved in moving the bench press. First we have the triceps brachii. The major function of the triceps is to extend the elbow and shoulder joints. The triceps brachii actually consist of three heads (long, lateral, and medial). The medial and lateral heads attach to the upper arm and elbow performing extension of the elbow joint while the long head attaches to the scapula to extend the shoulder.

Next we have the deltoids. While the deltoid is only one muscle it actually attaches in three places giving it three distinct heads (anterior, lateral, and posterior). While the posterior and lateral heads are used as stabilizers in the bench press we are only going to be concerned with the anterior or front deltoids (McCaw, 1994). The front deltoids are responsible for flexion, by moving the arm upward and horizontal adduction, which is moving the arm toward the chest.

The last muscle we will take a look at is the latissimus dorsi or the lats. The lats in this case, act as an adductor by pushing the arm toward the midline of the body. The lats however, are thought to play only a very minor part in the actual moving of the bench press. They have been shown to be effective just prior to the bottom phase of the lift (Barnett, 1995).

Now what does science have to say about the effectiveness of all of these variations in the bench press? As many of us are aware, when a muscle contracts it produces electrical energy. The higher the electrical energy the more work the actual muscle is producing. By attaching electrodes to the skin over the bellies of each of these muscles this electrical energy can be measured and read using an electromyograph (EMG). EMG studies can be then be performed on subjects to determine which muscles each of these variations in the bench press may effect. In a recent study Barnett et al (1995) examined the EMG activity of the upper pecs, the lower pecs, the triceps, the front deltoids and the lats using the decline, flat and incline bench press. This study will be quite useful in shedding some light on this confusing subject of pectoral development. So let’s get started!

The Sternocostal Head

One of the most common assumptions in the world of iron is that the decline bench is the best for developing the lower pecs. However, this familiar premise may be nothing more than another unfounded gym myth. According to the Barnett EMG study, the flat bench produced much more electrical energy in the lower pecs than did either the decline or incline positions. "I agree with this research" says NPC National Champion and pro bodybuilder Jay Cutler, "The flat bench is much better for lower pec development than the decline."

But what is the best grip to use? EMG studies have also shown that when doing the flat bench, the muscle fibers of the lower pecs are activated the most when using a wide grip. "This is very much true," adds Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield, Ph.D. "A wide grip with the elbows out will cause much more lower pec activation." However, whether you choose to use a wide or narrow grip, we can assume that using the decline position to target the lower pecs is just not justified. Eddie Robinson, IFBB pro bodybuilder states, "I feel the flat bench press, with a wide grip is best for over all pec development, but you do not want to go so wide with the grip that you over stress the shoulders."

The Clavicular Head

Now we all know that the incline bench hits the upper pecs. Right? Since the upper pecs seem to help to raise the arm, this would make sense. The incline position would put the arm in more of a flexed position than either the flat or decline positions. According to EMG studies this advice seems to be pretty much true. The Barnett study tells us that the incline position produces just slightly more electrical energy in the upper pecs that either the flat or decline positions. However, the flat bench was found to be very close. While the difference between the two was considered insignificant, the slight advantage of the incline over the flat bench in upper pec activation may be just what some of us need to further develop the upper pecs. "This is all very true," says Robinson. "There is no doubt the incline bench hits the pecs more than the flat bench."

Cutler agrees and says, "I personally feel upper pec development is very important for a bodybuilder. So I concentrate more on the incline bench that I do the flat bench." While the incline position may provide slightly greater upper pec stimulation Hatfield contends, "The same thing can be accomplished by using the flat bench. I would suggest lowering the bar to the upper pecs instead of the lower pecs (as normal), using a wide grip with the elbows out."

Nevertheless, if you are going to use the incline position to target the upper pecs, a narrower grip has been shown to best activate them. Professional bodybuilder Mike Francois agrees and says "A grip that is just a little bit wider than shoulder’s width really hits my upper pecs best." But Sal Arria, D.C., founder of the International Sport Science Association and former powerlifting champion warns: "Using a wide grip can involve too much front deltoid and can cause the deltoids to slam against the acronium process, causing trauma to the muscle."

The Triceps Brachii

I’m sure most of us have been told that a narrow grip hits more triceps than the wide grip. The close grip bench is widely used by powerlifters to develop strength in the triceps to accomplish those massive bench press attempts. According to the EMG study this is very true. The narrow grip when done in a flat position, produced more electrical energy than the incline or decline positions. It should be noted though, that the decline position was pretty close. Cutler explains, "While the decline may be close, I prefer to target the triceps using the flat bench with a narrow grip." Professional bodybuilder Mike Francois agrees, "The flat bench with a narrow grip is a great mass builder." "A narrow grip means your hands should be at your body’s width," Dr. Arria warns, "If you want to create a permanent wrist injury, go with a extremely narrow grip."

The Anterior Deltoid

Since the front deltoids are used for flexion of the arm, it makes since that the incline bench would activate the deltoids much more than the flat or decline positions. Once again our EMG study agrees. The incline bench press with a wide grip produced more electrical energy than the narrow grip. Francois remarks, "I agree! The greater the incline of the bench the more the front delts will be activated." Dr. Arria adds: "While the narrow grip is a stronger position, the wider grip produces more stress to the muscle."

The Latissimus Dorsi

Many of us were probably unaware that the lats were even involved in the bench press. However, EMG studies do show that the lats are activated for a short period of time just prior to the start of the bottom phase of the lift. Robinson states, "There is no doubt in my mind that the lats are used to help get the weight moving off the chest." However, while the lats are activated briefly in the pressing movement, it should be noted that this activity is considered to be very small when compared to that of the other muscles used in the bench press. In any case, the decline bench seemed to activate the lats much more that either the flat of incline positions. Also the wider the grip the greater the activation of the lats. "While the lats are not so much directly related to the push motion of the bench press, they are directly related to the stabilization of the torso," says Dr. Arria. "This is very important because greater trunk stabilization means that the dynamic load on the muscle is more specific."

While the lats appear to help get the bench moving off the chest and provide stabilization, no variation of the bench press should ever be considered to be a good exercise for developing the lats. But that in no way means that good lat development is not important for optimal chest development. Francois agrees and says, "The lats are definitely a factor in the movement and stabilization of the bench press, but there are certainly much better ways to develop good lats."

Don’t Forget the Dumbbells!
Does the use of dumbbells in chest training change any of the rules? Absolutely not! "The rules we have discussed absolutely do not change when dumbbells are used, but what the use of dumbbell in training does is enable the lifter to have a much greater range of movement," claims Dr. Arria. "Further growth can be stimulated from these deep ranges of movement." Cutler agrees and says, "I think you should expect the about the same results with the use of dumbbells except it is much easier to isolate the pecs."

"Another important factor to be considered," says Dr. Arria, " Is because you are using the arms independently dumbbells will require a little more stabilization. This means more activation of the synergistic muscles in the shoulder used to stabilize the load." Francois adds: "I like using the flat dumbbells to isolate the chest and build more mass. I feel that dumbbells allow me to get a better stretch at the bottom and more of a contraction at the top."

Partial Movements
Do partial movements stimulate particular muscles better than full range movements? Perhaps some of the prime movers are used more during different phases of the lift. Elliot et al (1989) used an EMG to answer this question and reported that prime movers of the bench press (pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps brachii) achieved maximal activation at the start of the concentric phase of the lift and maintained this level throughout the upward movement of the bar. So while many still use partials to selectively target specific muscles Hatfield contends, "Overloading the upper ranges of the movement may work, but training partial movements is for those who haven’t learned the secret of compensatory acceleration. "I agree with Hatfield," says Robinson. "I don’t use partial movements at all, I feel they increase you chances for injury."

While partials may not be so great for targeting specific muscles, they do seem to be useful for exhausting the muscle. Cutler states, "I use partial movements at the end of a set only to further exhaust the muscle." Francois agrees and says, "Partial ranges of movement are great for further fatiguing the muscle after your full range of movement has failed." However, Dr. Arria again cautions: "While partials do further exhaust the muscle, you have to remember that chances of injury to the muscle are much greater as you reach the point of fatigue." So the use of partial movements should be done with discretion.

In conclusion, most of could benefit greatly by just depending on the flat bench to gain mass in the upper and lower pecs. However, you must custom tailor your training to meet specific goals. If you have a particular body part that needs further development you must find an exercise or angle that will stress that particular area even more. Therefore variations in the angle of the bench and the grip are important to optimal development of muscles of the pecs, shoulders and triceps."

www.nbaf.com/nbaf/apr8pgg.html

"

 

[Lumbuss]

All bodybuilders must die!

Imnotdutch, I will never speak to you again because you hurt me and all of my powerlifting buddies feelings. Damn you man.

Just for the record, I believe that it is possible to target specific muscle bellies (not parts of a muscle belly per say) using various exercises. For example, inclines target the pec minor while declines target the pec major. The fact that one is activated to a lesser degree is irrelevant. The only important factor is that the exercise targets specific muscle bellies. In other words, if you believe that inclines are not more beneficial in filling in the upper chest than a flat or decline press then you are mistaken. I've seen it work for numerous lifters, myself included.

Big chests are not built by working the pec minor, nor are big upper chests.

 

[strong island]

Big chests are not built by working the pec minor, nor are big upper chests.

Good article about how working the minor could increase pec size:

From T-mag:

"Chest: Nail the Pec Minor!

The pectoralis minor is a thin, flat muscle lying beneath the larger pectoralis major. It extends laterally and upward, originating from the sternal ends of the upper ribs (3rd-5th) and inserting onto the coracoid process of the scapula. The pec minor pulls the scapula forward and downward and can raise the ribs, thus aiding in forceful inhalation.

The following tip is derived from former Ironman contributor and author of several strength books, Fred Koch. To increase chest size, you have to train both the pec major and minor. The minor tends to get overlooked since it's not as glamorous as the major. Koch notes that the great upper-chest development of swimmers is due to the pec minor which is responsible for half of the freestyle stroke. So how do you train the pec minor without getting wet?


Perform limited-range dumbbell pullovers on a flat bench

According to Koch, the key to this exercise is to keep the elbows close to the head (within the lines of the shoulders) and to use a short range of motion (ROM). If you have a hard time getting into this position, consider Active Release Techniques (ART) for the following muscles: subscapularis, latismus dorsi, teres major, long head of the triceps brachii, and serratus anterior. Visit ActiveRelease.com to find a provider in your area.

Also, according to ART practitioner, Dr. Mark Lindsay, a sling pattern exists between the pectoralis minor and the short head of the biceps. In addition, Dr. Lindsay has noticed a tendency of the pec minor to adhere to the major. In order for the pec minor to function properly, you should free up any adhesions that may exist. If ART isn't an option, you can always stretch your lats by simply hanging from a chin-up bar with one arm. (Scratching your armpit or eating a banana is optional.)

Keep in mind that in most shoulder exercises, the pec minor functions as a stabilizer for the scapula, and not as a prime mover. In the limited-range pullover, however, it acts as a prime mover. Traditionally, this exercise has been touted to improve winging scapulae, but in reality, it does the opposite. The lats are also involved in this movement, and they actually end up pulling your shoulder blades apart! (Poliquin, 1997)

Now, you often hear horror stories about the pullover exercise and, to a certain extent, they're true. For instance, according to Durall et al: "…subacromial impingement can also be exacerbated by exercises that involve excessive flexion. The pullover exercise performed supine with free weights or on a machine forces the rotator cuff tendons and bursa against the undersurface of the acromion when the arms are hyperflexed. This exercise can be made safer by simply limiting flexion to the normal physiological limits or a comfortable ROM."

What this simply means is that if you have any shoulder problems, you might want to avoid this exercise altogether. Yes, performing pullovers on a decline bench is a much safer option to reduce the amount of shoulder flexion, but unfortunately, the pec minor doesn't get overloaded in this position. Okay, enough talk, let's learn to do the darned exercise already!

Cup a dumbbell between both hands and lay back onto a flat bench. With your arms fully extended above your face, carefully lower the weight until your outstretched arms are in line with your body. Keep the small of your back pressed against the bench and brace the abdominals throughout to protect your lower back.

Make sure the elbows stay in (don't let them flare out) or else the lats will kick in. Elbows should be directly beside your ears in the bottom position. Raise the dumbbell in an arcing motion only about six to eight inches, or 45 degrees from horizontal. Again, keep your arms straight throughout, and remember, this is a limited ROM exercise to emphasize the pec minor. You'll actually feel the muscle contract under your chin!

I must reiterate: keep the abdominals tight! Don't allow the back to arch excessively as this movement is notorious for abdominal herniations. The abs are recruited as heavy stabilizers in this movement—just another bonus!If you're still not convinced about the importance of training the pec minor, then listen up. According to Koch, there are feedback systems within the body to protect you from developing serious imbalances. Subsequently, the body may slow down or even halt the development of the pec major if the minor is underdeveloped. Bottom line: training the minor will make a major difference!

If you're still not convinced about the importance of training the pec minor, then listen up. According to Koch, there are feedback systems within the body to protect you from developing serious imbalances. Subsequently, the body may slow down or even halt the development of the pec major if the minor is underdeveloped. Bottom line: training the minor will make a major difference! "

I might have to try it out.

 

[Lumbuss]

Holy shit I went to the gym and the thread doubled:

First: I love this board. Threads like this make it all worth it.

Second: Zulu..no disrespect intended.

Third: Much of this sport we love is still a lot of THEORY, and there are many "experts" who will take both sides of this argument.

Fourth: Vocabulary is very important here. We have to make sure we are all discussing the same thing. Lumbuss started using the term "isolate" which is different from "emphasize." I never said that inclines would isolate the upper chest.

Ok...I found this article which is a good read. The article discusses a study which tracked EMG activity in different areas of the chest during incline, decline and flat...with different hand positions.

Zulu...Even though we were all bitching at each other, I have learned something new today by researching this.

PS: I think since we are all on the board together everyday, we all get our periods at the same time.

ENJOY:
Variations In The Bench Press
by Tom McCullough MEd., MSS
The bench press may be the most popular and widely used exercise used for developing the chest (Thompson, 1994). But go into any gym today and you will see quite a few different variations being done. There’s the decline, the incline, the flat bench and to make things even more complicated, all of these can be done with dumbbells. Is one better than the others? Which one should you use and what does each develop?

Well, this is where we must begin to separate popular ‘gym myths’ from reality. First let’s look at the claims of many bodybuilders. Most believe the angle of the bench has lots to do with what part of the chest you will use. So it is a pretty common belief among weightlifters that the decline bench targets the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major (the lower pecs) and the incline bench hits the clavicular head of the pectoralis major (the upper pecs). So obviously the flat bench must hit a little of both. What about the grip position? Should we use a wide grip or is a narrow grip? I’m sure most of us have heard that a wide grip uses more chest and shoulders and a narrow grip uses more triceps.

Is this common advice just another fine example of the ‘gym myth’ or is there actually some science to back these anecdotal claims? Before we attempt to answer this burning question let’s first take a look at what really happens when the bench press is performed. As most of us are aware the major muscle used in the movement of the bench press is the pectoralis major. While the pectoralis major is actually one muscle, it has two heads -- the clavicular head and the sternocostal head. The clavicular head or the upper pecs originate at the middle part of the clavicle. The sternocostal head or lower pecs originate at the costal cartlidges of the first six ribs and the adjoining portion of the sternum. Both heads span the chest and eventually join and insert on the humerus or the bone of the upper arm. It is pretty much accepted by sport scientists that the upper pecs are responsible for shoulder flexion or moving the arm upward and the lower pecs are responsible for shoulder extension or moving the arm downward (Lockhart 1974). So at this point it still seems logical to believe that the decline position may actually hit the lower pecs and the incline will hit the upper pecs.

But wait...before we draw any conclusions, let’s take a quick look at some of the other muscles involved in moving the bench press. First we have the triceps brachii. The major function of the triceps is to extend the elbow and shoulder joints. The triceps brachii actually consist of three heads (long, lateral, and medial). The medial and lateral heads attach to the upper arm and elbow performing extension of the elbow joint while the long head attaches to the scapula to extend the shoulder.

Next we have the deltoids. While the deltoid is only one muscle it actually attaches in three places giving it three distinct heads (anterior, lateral, and posterior). While the posterior and lateral heads are used as stabilizers in the bench press we are only going to be concerned with the anterior or front deltoids (McCaw, 1994). The front deltoids are responsible for flexion, by moving the arm upward and horizontal adduction, which is moving the arm toward the chest.

The last muscle we will take a look at is the latissimus dorsi or the lats. The lats in this case, act as an adductor by pushing the arm toward the midline of the body. The lats however, are thought to play only a very minor part in the actual moving of the bench press. They have been shown to be effective just prior to the bottom phase of the lift (Barnett, 1995).

Now what does science have to say about the effectiveness of all of these variations in the bench press? As many of us are aware, when a muscle contracts it produces electrical energy. The higher the electrical energy the more work the actual muscle is producing. By attaching electrodes to the skin over the bellies of each of these muscles this electrical energy can be measured and read using an electromyograph (EMG). EMG studies can be then be performed on subjects to determine which muscles each of these variations in the bench press may effect. In a recent study Barnett et al (1995) examined the EMG activity of the upper pecs, the lower pecs, the triceps, the front deltoids and the lats using the decline, flat and incline bench press. This study will be quite useful in shedding some light on this confusing subject of pectoral development. So let’s get started!

The Sternocostal Head

One of the most common assumptions in the world of iron is that the decline bench is the best for developing the lower pecs. However, this familiar premise may be nothing more than another unfounded gym myth. According to the Barnett EMG study, the flat bench produced much more electrical energy in the lower pecs than did either the decline or incline positions. "I agree with this research" says NPC National Champion and pro bodybuilder Jay Cutler, "The flat bench is much better for lower pec development than the decline."

But what is the best grip to use? EMG studies have also shown that when doing the flat bench, the muscle fibers of the lower pecs are activated the most when using a wide grip. "This is very much true," adds Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield, Ph.D. "A wide grip with the elbows out will cause much more lower pec activation." However, whether you choose to use a wide or narrow grip, we can assume that using the decline position to target the lower pecs is just not justified. Eddie Robinson, IFBB pro bodybuilder states, "I feel the flat bench press, with a wide grip is best for over all pec development, but you do not want to go so wide with the grip that you over stress the shoulders."

The Clavicular Head

Now we all know that the incline bench hits the upper pecs. Right? Since the upper pecs seem to help to raise the arm, this would make sense. The incline position would put the arm in more of a flexed position than either the flat or decline positions. According to EMG studies this advice seems to be pretty much true. The Barnett study tells us that the incline position produces just slightly more electrical energy in the upper pecs that either the flat or decline positions. However, the flat bench was found to be very close. While the difference between the two was considered insignificant, the slight advantage of the incline over the flat bench in upper pec activation may be just what some of us need to further develop the upper pecs. "This is all very true," says Robinson. "There is no doubt the incline bench hits the pecs more than the flat bench."

Cutler agrees and says, "I personally feel upper pec development is very important for a bodybuilder. So I concentrate more on the incline bench that I do the flat bench." While the incline position may provide slightly greater upper pec stimulation Hatfield contends, "The same thing can be accomplished by using the flat bench. I would suggest lowering the bar to the upper pecs instead of the lower pecs (as normal), using a wide grip with the elbows out."

Nevertheless, if you are going to use the incline position to target the upper pecs, a narrower grip has been shown to best activate them. Professional bodybuilder Mike Francois agrees and says "A grip that is just a little bit wider than shoulder’s width really hits my upper pecs best." But Sal Arria, D.C., founder of the International Sport Science Association and former powerlifting champion warns: "Using a wide grip can involve too much front deltoid and can cause the deltoids to slam against the acronium process, causing trauma to the muscle."

The Triceps Brachii

I’m sure most of us have been told that a narrow grip hits more triceps than the wide grip. The close grip bench is widely used by powerlifters to develop strength in the triceps to accomplish those massive bench press attempts. According to the EMG study this is very true. The narrow grip when done in a flat position, produced more electrical energy than the incline or decline positions. It should be noted though, that the decline position was pretty close. Cutler explains, "While the decline may be close, I prefer to target the triceps using the flat bench with a narrow grip." Professional bodybuilder Mike Francois agrees, "The flat bench with a narrow grip is a great mass builder." "A narrow grip means your hands should be at your body’s width," Dr. Arria warns, "If you want to create a permanent wrist injury, go with a extremely narrow grip."

The Anterior Deltoid

Since the front deltoids are used for flexion of the arm, it makes since that the incline bench would activate the deltoids much more than the flat or decline positions. Once again our EMG study agrees. The incline bench press with a wide grip produced more electrical energy than the narrow grip. Francois remarks, "I agree! The greater the incline of the bench the more the front delts will be activated." Dr. Arria adds: "While the narrow grip is a stronger position, the wider grip produces more stress to the muscle."

The Latissimus Dorsi

Many of us were probably unaware that the lats were even involved in the bench press. However, EMG studies do show that the lats are activated for a short period of time just prior to the start of the bottom phase of the lift. Robinson states, "There is no doubt in my mind that the lats are used to help get the weight moving off the chest." However, while the lats are activated briefly in the pressing movement, it should be noted that this activity is considered to be very small when compared to that of the other muscles used in the bench press. In any case, the decline bench seemed to activate the lats much more that either the flat of incline positions. Also the wider the grip the greater the activation of the lats. "While the lats are not so much directly related to the push motion of the bench press, they are directly related to the stabilization of the torso," says Dr. Arria. "This is very important because greater trunk stabilization means that the dynamic load on the muscle is more specific."

While the lats appear to help get the bench moving off the chest and provide stabilization, no variation of the bench press should ever be considered to be a good exercise for developing the lats. But that in no way means that good lat development is not important for optimal chest development. Francois agrees and says, "The lats are definitely a factor in the movement and stabilization of the bench press, but there are certainly much better ways to develop good lats."

Don’t Forget the Dumbbells!
Does the use of dumbbells in chest training change any of the rules? Absolutely not! "The rules we have discussed absolutely do not change when dumbbells are used, but what the use of dumbbell in training does is enable the lifter to have a much greater range of movement," claims Dr. Arria. "Further growth can be stimulated from these deep ranges of movement." Cutler agrees and says, "I think you should expect the about the same results with the use of dumbbells except it is much easier to isolate the pecs."

"Another important factor to be considered," says Dr. Arria, " Is because you are using the arms independently dumbbells will require a little more stabilization. This means more activation of the synergistic muscles in the shoulder used to stabilize the load." Francois adds: "I like using the flat dumbbells to isolate the chest and build more mass. I feel that dumbbells allow me to get a better stretch at the bottom and more of a contraction at the top."

Partial Movements
Do partial movements stimulate particular muscles better than full range movements? Perhaps some of the prime movers are used more during different phases of the lift. Elliot et al (1989) used an EMG to answer this question and reported that prime movers of the bench press (pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps brachii) achieved maximal activation at the start of the concentric phase of the lift and maintained this level throughout the upward movement of the bar. So while many still use partials to selectively target specific muscles Hatfield contends, "Overloading the upper ranges of the movement may work, but training partial movements is for those who haven’t learned the secret of compensatory acceleration. "I agree with Hatfield," says Robinson. "I don’t use partial movements at all, I feel they increase you chances for injury."

While partials may not be so great for targeting specific muscles, they do seem to be useful for exhausting the muscle. Cutler states, "I use partial movements at the end of a set only to further exhaust the muscle." Francois agrees and says, "Partial ranges of movement are great for further fatiguing the muscle after your full range of movement has failed." However, Dr. Arria again cautions: "While partials do further exhaust the muscle, you have to remember that chances of injury to the muscle are much greater as you reach the point of fatigue." So the use of partial movements should be done with discretion.

In conclusion, most of could benefit greatly by just depending on the flat bench to gain mass in the upper and lower pecs. However, you must custom tailor your training to meet specific goals. If you have a particular body part that needs further development you must find an exercise or angle that will stress that particular area even more. Therefore variations in the angle of the bench and the grip are important to optimal development of muscles of the pecs, shoulders and triceps."

www.nbaf.com/nbaf/apr8pgg.html

"

That is a good article, but the pecs are still one muscle and they share a single insertion point. Regardless where the stress is placed, the pectorial is still one muscle and it cannot change shape, it can only get larger as a whole, or smaller. You cannot hypertrophy one muscle fiber in a single muscle, and not another. Just because the incline press may have placed more stress on the upper portion of the pecs does not prove that the muscle will change shape and that the upper portion of the muscle wil increase in size compared to the lower portion. Im sure there are articles out there just as convincing that say emphatically that it is completley impossible to target any portion of the same exact muscle over another. That study didn't prove that the participants chest changed shape, nor did it prove that inclines increased mass in the upper chest more so than flat presses. I read a convincing article a while back about "protien cycling" and i was like "this is a good idea.'' Then lyle mcdonald came on and commented on the thread and disproved every singel thing the guy said, and criticized his studies and showed them to be completley irrelevant.

 

[Lumbuss]

Good article about how working the minor could increase pec size:

From T-mag:

"Chest: Nail the Pec Minor!

The pectoralis minor is a thin, flat muscle lying beneath the larger pectoralis major. It extends laterally and upward, originating from the sternal ends of the upper ribs (3rd-5th) and inserting onto the coracoid process of the scapula. The pec minor pulls the scapula forward and downward and can raise the ribs, thus aiding in forceful inhalation.

The following tip is derived from former Ironman contributor and author of several strength books, Fred Koch. To increase chest size, you have to train both the pec major and minor. The minor tends to get overlooked since it's not as glamorous as the major. Koch notes that the great upper-chest development of swimmers is due to the pec minor which is responsible for half of the freestyle stroke. So how do you train the pec minor without getting wet?


Perform limited-range dumbbell pullovers on a flat bench

According to Koch, the key to this exercise is to keep the elbows close to the head (within the lines of the shoulders) and to use a short range of motion (ROM). If you have a hard time getting into this position, consider Active Release Techniques (ART) for the following muscles: subscapularis, latismus dorsi, teres major, long head of the triceps brachii, and serratus anterior. Visit ActiveRelease.com to find a provider in your area.

Also, according to ART practitioner, Dr. Mark Lindsay, a sling pattern exists between the pectoralis minor and the short head of the biceps. In addition, Dr. Lindsay has noticed a tendency of the pec minor to adhere to the major. In order for the pec minor to function properly, you should free up any adhesions that may exist. If ART isn't an option, you can always stretch your lats by simply hanging from a chin-up bar with one arm. (Scratching your armpit or eating a banana is optional.)

Keep in mind that in most shoulder exercises, the pec minor functions as a stabilizer for the scapula, and not as a prime mover. In the limited-range pullover, however, it acts as a prime mover. Traditionally, this exercise has been touted to improve winging scapulae, but in reality, it does the opposite. The lats are also involved in this movement, and they actually end up pulling your shoulder blades apart! (Poliquin, 1997)

Now, you often hear horror stories about the pullover exercise and, to a certain extent, they're true. For instance, according to Durall et al: "…subacromial impingement can also be exacerbated by exercises that involve excessive flexion. The pullover exercise performed supine with free weights or on a machine forces the rotator cuff tendons and bursa against the undersurface of the acromion when the arms are hyperflexed. This exercise can be made safer by simply limiting flexion to the normal physiological limits or a comfortable ROM."

What this simply means is that if you have any shoulder problems, you might want to avoid this exercise altogether. Yes, performing pullovers on a decline bench is a much safer option to reduce the amount of shoulder flexion, but unfortunately, the pec minor doesn't get overloaded in this position. Okay, enough talk, let's learn to do the darned exercise already!

Cup a dumbbell between both hands and lay back onto a flat bench. With your arms fully extended above your face, carefully lower the weight until your outstretched arms are in line with your body. Keep the small of your back pressed against the bench and brace the abdominals throughout to protect your lower back.

Make sure the elbows stay in (don't let them flare out) or else the lats will kick in. Elbows should be directly beside your ears in the bottom position. Raise the dumbbell in an arcing motion only about six to eight inches, or 45 degrees from horizontal. Again, keep your arms straight throughout, and remember, this is a limited ROM exercise to emphasize the pec minor. You'll actually feel the muscle contract under your chin!

I must reiterate: keep the abdominals tight! Don't allow the back to arch excessively as this movement is notorious for abdominal herniations. The abs are recruited as heavy stabilizers in this movement—just another bonus!If you're still not convinced about the importance of training the pec minor, then listen up. According to Koch, there are feedback systems within the body to protect you from developing serious imbalances. Subsequently, the body may slow down or even halt the development of the pec major if the minor is underdeveloped. Bottom line: training the minor will make a major difference!

If you're still not convinced about the importance of training the pec minor, then listen up. According to Koch, there are feedback systems within the body to protect you from developing serious imbalances. Subsequently, the body may slow down or even halt the development of the pec major if the minor is underdeveloped. Bottom line: training the minor will make a major difference! "

I might have to try it out.

T-mag is just another worthless muscle mag. The only online magazine i like is par dues' magizine. As far as im concerned to be completley honest T-mag is a piece of crap and i trust nothing they say, that is just my opinion. I dont take any of their stuff seriousley, that article they had a while back on GVT 2000 was complete bullshit. As was that article about seperating fats and carbs in meals, it was complete bullshit. THey are just another muscle mag spreading false crap and trying to sell their supplements IMO. I seriousley hate that magazine.

 

[Lumbuss]

I think it was lyle mcdonald that said on MFW that t-mag doesn't know shit from shinola.

 

[ZZuluZ]

Strong Island, I'm glad we're finally have some productive debate going now.

I don't particularly like that article.

I've read so many EMG studies particularly by Tudor Bompa, and I didn't they were convincing.

Arioch, what makes you think these studies are accurate?

-Zulu

 

[Lumbuss]

one study that shows that more stress is placed on the upper pecs doesnt prove that you can create localized growth in a single muscle, while neglecting another portion of that muscle. i think some guy on sportssci.com tried to say that you can easily add mass and lose fat at the same time because some study on overweight police officers said so, that has no revelance to bodybuilders.

basically it comes down to the fact that any exercise that puts stress on the pecs can generate hypertrophy. and inclines will make your upper chest larger, as well as your whole chest. but i guess you can also stand on your head while drinking water out of a straw. there are better ways to go about things, and if you want a big upper chest, you have to increase the size of your entire chest because you cant make one portion of a muscle grow and not another by chaning the angle at which you hit it. there are better ways to go about increasing upper chest size, and that is doing a flat bench because it increases total pectoral size better than inclines. increasing the size of your entire pecs is all you can hope for.

 

[Thaibox]

Are the assholes that can no longer access triedia coming here now?

What the fuck is this, Junior high?

Lumbuss, you come on here instantly calling repsected bros like needsize names like jackass and preaching your know-it-all bullshit. I just took a valium and feeling nice, so I will qualify my next statement. You may be a nice guy, but you have come across like a cocksucker, not a good start.

I have made my dislike for Zulu very clear, but I will give him credit for articulating his arguments thoroughly. Your age has been pointed out to you as a discredit due to the impossibility of any real empirical knowledge. The age itself is irrelevant. It is the exact same impeachment if you were 50 with a negligable amount of trianing experience.

Why do you guys(zulu and Lumass) believe that you are so knowledgable? B-fold, needsize, and many others have over ten years experience including myself. Do you think we just lift and don't study the scientific aspect of this game? Hell no. There is a balance between empirical and scientific knowledge in lifting. Find it. I started lifting at 6'1" 140 lbs and after years of researching, studying my ass off, and working hard as fuck, I am now at 6'2" 250 ~11%bf. B-fold and others have even more impressive numbers and acheivements.

This is like two 18 y.o. grunts still in basic training arguing about combat tactics with decorated Delta Force operators(because you've read all the field manuals). Guys like that get shut up really fast. The guys you are arguing with are dudes that have earned their knowledge, take advantage of it and learn. Open your ears and shut your fucking mouths. You'll go much further in life.

 

[needsize]

AMEN

 

[ZZuluZ]

"Open your ears and shut your fucking mouths. You'll go much further in life."

Your arrogance really is quite stunning. You don't come in with any studies or any sort of productive debate. Zilch. Nada.

Do you have anything at all productive to say?

I could care less if you train for 10 years, 20 years, have 20 inch guns, deadlift 900 pounds... it's all irrelevant to this debate. Until YOU have something productive to say, I suggest YOU shut the fuck up. I have respect for those on this board who have offered their opinions politely and have quantified them. I do not care what your stats are. They will not earn you respect in the real world or amongst intelligent people.

You do not understand what empirical evidence means. It is not synonymous with anecdotal evidence [which, almost by definition, is not evidence at all]

Who do you think you are helping by spouting insults? Please indicate to me your last productive post on this board. You have done nothing but stir up meaningless diatribe. You're worse than SSAlexS.

I respect Arioch's opinion, for example, not because he has a huge Total or amazing O lifts....but because the guy knows what he is talking about. Even if he benched 30 pounds I'd still take his advice.

I thought we might have some polite discourse. Obviously you have made that impossible. Good job.

-Zulu

 

[Lumbuss]

Are the assholes that can no longer access triedia coming here now?

What the fuck is this, Junior high?

Lumbuss, you come on here instantly calling repsected bros like needsize names like jackass and preaching your know-it-all bullshit. I just took a valium and feeling nice, so I will qualify my next statement. You may be a nice guy, but you have come across like a cocksucker, not a good start.

I have made my dislike for Zulu very clear, but I will give him credit for articulating his arguments thoroughly. Your age has been pointed out to you as a discredit due to the impossibility of any real empirical knowledge. The age itself is irrelevant. It is the exact same impeachment if you were 50 with a negligable amount of trianing experience.

Why do you guys(zulu and Lumass) believe that you are so knowledgable? B-fold, needsize, and many others have over ten years experience including myself. Do you think we just lift and don't study the scientific aspect of this game? Hell no. There is a balance between empirical and scientific knowledge in lifting. Find it. I started lifting at 6'1" 140 lbs and after years of researching, studying my ass off, and working hard as fuck, I am now at 6'2" 250 ~11%bf. B-fold and others have even more impressive numbers and acheivements.

This is like two 18 y.o. grunts still in basic training arguing about combat tactics with decorated Delta Force operators(because you've read all the field manuals). Guys like that get shut up really fast. The guys you are arguing with are dudes that have earned their knowledge, take advantage of it and learn. Open your ears and shut your fucking mouths. You'll go much further in life.

Wow! What a pathetic argument that is for your side. So because you are bigger than me that means you know what your talking about and i dont? If you are so smart you should tell everyone on this thread that inclines wont hit your upper chest more than a flat barbell press.

So are you saying that the bigger the person, the more they know and they are always right? So should no one listen to the diet guru lyle mcdonald because he is a skinny little pussy, forget about all his books he is skinny so no one should listen to him?

Would i get better results training according to arnolds methods? Will training two hours in the gym "pump up da muscles so i no look like a girly man no more?" Were the scientists that discovered leptin, did they all bench 400lbs? I dont thik they did, should we ignore leptin when dieting then?

I just find it stupid that so many people out there still belive inclines work the upper chest.

 

[needsize]

Wow! What a pathetic argument that is for your side. So because you are bigger than me that means you know what your talking about and i dont? If you are so smart you should tell everyone on this thread that inclines wont hit your upper chest more than a flat barbell press.

So are you saying that the bigger the person, the more they know and they are always right? So should no one listen to the diet guru lyle mcdonald because he is a skinny little pussy, forget about all his books he is skinny so no one should listen to him?

Would i get better results training according to arnolds methods? Will training two hours in the gym "pump up da muscles so i no look like a girly man no more?" Were the scientists that discovered leptin, did they all bench 400lbs? I dont thik they did, should we ignore leptin when dieting then?

I just find it stupid that so many people out there still belive inclines work the upper chest.

The amount of muscle mass or strength gained through training is one method of judging a person's knowlege on the subject, but not necessarily the only one. And admittedly, it's not always that reliable as some meatheads get huge without ever knowing how to train properly. But in my case, I'm a hard gainer that had to fight for every ounce gained, and in the process tried every routine/supplement I could get my hands on.
There are lots of training gurus like Dan Duchaine, Vince Gironda, etc, that were never huge but had mad knowlege when it came to training. But those guys also had proof that their theories worked, ie, they trained the best and biggest bodybuilders in the world. You are pretty convinvced that you are an expert in this field, all flaming aside, what then qualifies you as such? A degree in something related would be a start, but at the same time doesn't mean much as a degree doesn't necessarily mean you know anything about training as a bodybuilder.

 

[Lumbuss]

The amount of muscle mass or strength gained through training is one method of judging a person's knowlege on the subject, but not necessarily the only one. And admittedly, it's not always that reliable as some meatheads get huge without ever knowing how to train properly. But in my case, I'm a hard gainer that had to fight for every ounce gained, and in the process tried every routine/supplement I could get my hands on.
There are lots of training gurus like Dan Duchaine, Vince Gironda, etc, that were never huge but had mad knowlege when it came to training. But those guys also had proof that their theories worked, ie, they trained the best and biggest bodybuilders in the world. You are pretty convinvced that you are an expert in this field, all flaming aside, what then qualifies you as such? A degree in something related would be a start, but at the same time doesn't mean much as a degree doesn't necessarily mean you know anything about training as a bodybuilder.

Well one way to gain information (correct information) is to read stuff that the experts write. One way to gain false information is to read threads on training boards like this one. I would never trust anything i read on any thread on this board, most of the stuff here is wrong, this thread for example. I dont think i can be too incorrect if my arguments are based on stuff that people like dan duchaine, lyle mcdonald, par dues say. There are people out there who know what they are talking about, and then there are those who dont. I know who knows what they are talking about, so i use what they say and i try and pass it along.

 

[needsize]

Well one way to gain information (correct information) is to read stuff that the experts write. One way to gain false information is to read threads on training boards like this one. I would never trust anything i read on any thread on this board, most of the stuff here is wrong, this thread for example. I dont think i can be too incorrect if my arguments are based on stuff that people like dan duchaine, lyle mcdonald, par dues say. There are people out there who know what they are talking about, and then there are those who dont. I know who knows what they are talking about, so i use what they say and i try and pass it along.

Your basing your opinion on what SOME of the experts write, as not all of them agree with your theory, although it is a popular one. But you're basing all of this, your name calling, and flat our saying that you're right and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong, on some stuff you read? You'll notice that most that post around here, offer up what they say as an opinion, rarely will you see people come out and make the kind of statements you have made as there are very few "FOR SURES" in bodybuilding, but for some reason your opinions are definitely right.
Most of the stuff you read here is wrong, you say. that is really interesting as there are a lot of guys around here that listen to the advice of the vets here, and are making their best gains ever as a result. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if all you've got to back it up is that "you read it in a book once", you'll find that very few are going to listen to you

 

[Lumbuss]

Your basing your opinion on what SOME of the experts write, as not all of them agree with your theory, although it is a popular one. But you're basing all of this, your name calling, and flat our saying that you're right and everyone else who disagrees with you is wrong, on some stuff you read? You'll notice that most that post around here, offer up what they say as an opinion, rarely will you see people come out and make the kind of statements you have made as there are very few "FOR SURES" in bodybuilding, but for some reason your opinions are definitely right.
Most of the stuff you read here is wrong, you say. that is really interesting as there are a lot of guys around here that listen to the advice of the vets here, and are making their best gains ever as a result. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if all you've got to back it up is that "you read it in a book once", you'll find that very few are going to listen to you

i dont care who listens to me. i listen to myself and my body is the only one i give a shit about. im not even going to argue the inclines upper chest thing, i think the whole argument is a joke.

im done with this thread. there is always a better way to do things and i always try and find that way and do it. i am never happy with sub maximal results.

 

[strong island]

For those of you who still don't know why the rest of the world does inclines....I don't know what to tell you to make you happy.

All I know is that there are several EMG studies which say that inclines work the upper chest more than flat. Not by much...but they do. Look em up.

Plus EVERY bodybuilder I have ever heard of does inclines. So even if there was no evidence I would still do them because the best do them. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

So if you don't believe in inclines ....DON'T DO THEM!!! I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

So what if you are still in puberty and have only been working out for 2 years. So what if someone only weighs 85 pounds and can only bench their bodyweight.

I don't give a shit.

I am going nighty night.

Peace.

Lets put this thread to rest.

 

[needsize]

Your little digs are actually pretty amusing, it's just too bad that myself and the other guys around here with advanced physiques have been getting sub maximal results from our training; just imaging where we could be right now.....
Hopefully someday you will grace us with a picture of what kind of "maximal" results you have gotten from your training. Till then, how about you lose the attitude and quit being an ass!

 

[Lumbuss]

Your little digs are actually pretty amusing, it's just too bad that myself and the other guys around here with advanced physiques have been getting sub maximal results from our training; just imaging where we could be right now.....

no shit motherfucker. thats my whole point, imagine how much bigger you would be if you werent so stubborn and ignorant in your unfounded beliefs. every time you do stupid shit like inclines it stops you from reaching your potential, in the long run it adds up. im not going to lose sweat off my balls though, i dont dick around with inclines when i train.

 

[Screwball]

Hummm, Lumbuss and Dumbass are very similar. Coincidence, I think not.

 

[needsize]

no shit motherfucker. thats my whole point, imagine how much bigger you would be if you werent so stubborn and ignorant in your unfounded beliefs. every time you do stupid shit like inclines it stops you from reaching your potential, in the long run it adds up. im not going to lose sweat off my balls though, i dont dick around with inclines when i train.

"stubborn, ignorant", in case you haven't noticed, people on this board don't want to hear that immature flaming bullshit.

Unfounded beliefs, fuck that's funny, you come here with your holier than thou attitude, and tell people that have been training a lot longer than you and have much more advanced physiques than you, that our beliefs are unfounded cuz you read it in a book once. I don't normally get drawn into this type of kindergarten bullshit, but you are an absolute fucking joke! You have, from what we have seen, absolutely nothing to back this shit up, and yet you come to this board raving like a complete asshole, despite some people's best efforts to keep this a mature debate. I have far more respect for zulu as he at least seems open to what others have to say, which is the whole point of coming to a board like this. If this is how you conduct yourself, go back to the sandbox little boy!!!!

 

[Elite_Fry]

ive always wanted a long thread. can i have some karma?
this should be a sticky

 

[b fold the truth]

Are the trolls rampant? Is High School out for the year?

As long as you decide that you want to stay small...then you can believe what you believe. Doesn't phase me a bit.

Like I said before...if inclines don't work to build your upper chest...I feel really sorry for you because it does for me and the rest of the bodybuilding population. Your genetics must suck...

Remember...there comes a time when you have to put down the Flex magazine, close your mouth, and wrap your hands around a piece of cold steel and give it hell. Everyone can show lots of theory, few can actually take the pain.

B True

 

[Lumbuss]

i have nothing to back my beliefs? actually, i do. physiology, anatomy, and science back my beliefs. i dont recall reading it in a book somewhere either, i haven't gotten the latest copy of "the best upper chest workouts to blast your upper pecs mag!" yet. the reason you have respect for zulu is because you almost convinced him that because you are bigger and more experienced than he is, you are right and he is wrong. the thing you dont like about me is the fact that i dont give a shit about how big you are, i just know im right on this one because as far as im concerned it sholdn't be a debate. your 18" guns dont hold all the answers.

no one from elite is going to tell me you can hit your "upper chest" with inclines.

 

[Lumbuss]

Are the trolls rampant? Is High School out for the year?

As long as you decide that you want to stay small...then you can believe what you believe. Doesn't phase me a bit.

Like I said before...if inclines don't work to build your upper chest...I feel really sorry for you because it does for me and the rest of the bodybuilding population. Your genetics must suck...

Remember...there comes a time when you have to put down the Flex magazine, close your mouth, and wrap your hands around a piece of cold steel and give it hell. Everyone can show lots of theory, few can actually take the pain.

B True

flex magazine? never heard of it, but if i picked it up im sure it would say:

WORKOUT TO BLAST UPPER PECS!! perform this workout three times a week and you are garunteed to add 3'' to your upper pecs.

INLCINES 4x8-10
FLYES 4x10-15
FLAT BENCH 4x8-10
DECLINES 4x8-10

What you guys are saying comes straight from muscle magazines, so i dont see why you diss them.

What special properties does the chest have that other muscles dont, it is bigger? How come you can't change the shape of your bicep, or lengthen your tricep, but somehow you can make one part of your chest grow and have the entire muscle change its pre genetically determined shape?

WHy should everything the "Big" people say always be right? Im sure many big people dont even count every calorie they eat, so i guess no one should do that. What a great idea that would be, why dont we abolish the diet forum because a couple of the big fellas just go to the steak house 10x a day and are big.

 

[Vortexx]

A question for the nay sayers: why do you do flat benches anyway?

Following your line of reasoning, wouldn't DECLINE benching not even grant more overall pec development than incline or flat? Because of mechanical stronger advantage???

Mind you, some bodybuilders like Serge Nubret got good overall chest overall chest shape / size from flat benches alone (sometimes he used to do 20 sets of them and no other chest exercise)

But I feel this is highly dependant on:
execution style (powerlifting style or bb style and within bb where do you lower the bar, clavicles or midchest etc...)
Biomechanics: weak or strong links like delts and triceps will for a great deal influence how much result you get from a bench, some people are just better of with flyes etc...
basic muscle cell density: wich is often not uniformly distributed in one person, which is why you see that some of your muscles respond much better than others, I take it that serge nubret had good density in the clavicle area to start with so that he didn't need to do specific incline upper chest work to gett a balanced filled chest.

For me it comes as no surprise that good old Arnold who possessed one of the best upper pecs of all times routinely did incline benches with 440 lbs for 8 reps!

Funny thing is you would expect his front delts to explode as well with this kind of intensity, but Arnold was never a delt-man (sure he could make them look cut, but no cannonballs).
Again, i think this is a case of uneven distributed density and perhaps overtraining the delts (?)