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possible to target upper chest?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elite_Fry
  • Start date Start date
" Mind you, some bodybuilders like Serge Nubret got good overall chest overall chest shape / size from flat benches alone (sometimes he used to do 20 sets of them and no other chest exercise) "

That is exactly my point.

Many people do things and they work. There is anecdotal evidence for everything.

Saying:

"Inclines make my upper pecs bigger"

is analogous to saying:

"I saw a stupid black guy, so all black people are stupid"

It doesn't mean anything in and of itself. Your experience does not translate as empirical fact.

My position is that Inclines place your lower pecs at a mechanical disadvatage. They may stress the upper pecs slightly more but this is due to things like posture and individual body mechanics.

I'll look up if I can find anything more convincing... My word is not fact, but hopefully that of the experts may be [whether or not they bench 600]

-Zulu
 
Arioch, what makes you think these studies are accurate?

Well, in at least on of the studies I linked to, I worked with one of the researchers (side benefit of this being my field for more than 20 years). I am a stickler for details. People hate it. He makes me look like the most carefree man on the planent. Hands down, he is the most anal retentive prick I have ever met. And I trust his research. Particularly when it comes to reading MVIC, as he has done a lot of work in the field.

Furthermore, there are specific anatomical functions of the clavicular head of the pectoralis major, which I listed. A simple anatomical review will show this. These functions do not as heavily recruit the sternalcostal head. Grip width also plays a factor.

Some of the people who do not see a difference could experiment with their grip. So could some of the people who do. This would be a decent method of comaring anectodal evidence over the net, assuming everone remains honest.

As well as the fact that some people will be genetically pre-disposed to have not only deficient size in part of a muscle, such as the clavicular head, which can occur, as well as poor recruitment patterns, which actually can be altered through years of trial and error.

What you guys are saying comes straight from muscle magazines,

What I am saying comes directly from peer reviewed research, including research from a department that I was a part of.

There is always a certain disparity in the research. To fully evaluate it, you must not only review the entire articles, which many do not, but review the authors of the study, which most never do. Many studies with poor EMG readings or MVIC results are often done by 1st year grad students as part of their Master's work, and the results do tend to show their inexperience. This is why there were several studies relavent to the bench sticky on the PL forum, that argued both for and against increased recruitment of the clavicular head of the pectoralis major, that I did not include.
 
b fold the truth said:

Remember...there comes a time when you have to put down the Flex magazine, close your mouth, and wrap your hands around a piece of cold steel and give it hell. Everyone can show lots of theory, few can actually take the pain.

B True

Well put
 
"Hands down, he is the most anal retentive prick I have ever met. And I trust his research."

LOL.... I'll take your word for it then.

Was there a significant disparity between the flat and incline bench or was it minimal?

-Zulu
 
Well, off the top of my head, it was at least statisically significant. Will pull the entire study out later and report back, rather than make a mistake, as I have been looking at far too many of them to go by memory at this point.
 
'Well, off the top of my head, it was at least statisically significant. Will pull the entire study out later and report back, rather than make a mistake, as I have been looking at far too many of them to go by memory at this point."

Is it possible that different EMG activity is a result of things like improper form when flat benchpressing, etc..?

Does every incline benchpress always yield more EMG activity in the upper pecs as opposed to flat benchpressing?

I'd love to look at the study.

Thanks,

[And btw, I completely revamped my strength routine...I think it's pretty cool now. Definitely not undertraining anymore. If you want to have a look I'll PM it to you]

-Zulu
 
Lumbuss said:
"That is a good article, but the pecs are still one muscle and they share a single insertion point."

Single insertion point, true.. But different origions. See, the clavicle and the sternum run at about 120 degree angles of each other. Therefore, angles ARE involved. And no, I'll say right now that I have no studies to back this up, just common sense. After all, anyone can find some bullshit study to prove nearly anything these days, am I wrong?

Will we all agree that bringing the insertion point of the muscle as close as possible to the origion will result in the greatest muscle flexion? Well it's my opinion that this occurs in the clavicular part of the pecs with the arms at an inclined angle. Let me explain why.

As an example, let us all try this... First, raise your right hand about 135 degrees over your head. OK, now place your left hand on the clavicular part of your right pec. Now flex... Pretty hard, eh? Now hold the flex and bring your arm down to straight ahead. Notice how the upper part gets slightly softer and the lower part gets slightly harder? Well I don't know about all of you, but it's pretty obvious to me that my clavicular part is much more flexed with my arm up at an inclined angle. And if you still don't believe me, try flexing your clavicular part with your elbows back, as in a cable row.

Also, is it just my imagination that I get a much better stretch in my upper pecs from inclined presses? This, with what I've previously mentioned, would mean greater range of motion, would it not? This is the name of the game, is it not?

Now if you don't get a more complete flex with your arms at an incline, than you either aren't doing it right, or our bodies just aren't made the same. Either way, I do get a more complete flex and I do feel it in my "upper pecs" the next day, and YOU cannot tell ME otherwise.
 
palpation is commonly used as a field method of muscle involvement. you dont need an EMG to tell if a muscle is contracted. good explanation sleaze.
 
ZZuluZ said:
They do not stress your upper pecs more, this is a physiological fact.

They're not talking over the workload; the workload is reduced. Which is why you incline less than you flat bench.

-Zulu

Zulu, you're a clown. Why don't you get on a good d-bol/test cycle , hmmmm dddd-bboool.....hmmmm teeessst, and after about 3-4 wks, when you get FULL FUCKING BLOWN even when you're spanking the monkey, walk into the gym and start with a few incline dumbell presses......next chest workout, do flat's......you'll see which one blows your upper chest up like a balloon!

On a more serious note, my input would be to start your chest workouts with incline dumbell, and don't use that much of an incline (<45 degrees, ~30), concentrate on totally isolating the upper pecs. Use a weight that you can do 8-12 times, and of course use a FULL range of motion, even pause slightly at the bottom of the movement. I'm telling you, it blows your upper chest up awesome. I do barbell once in a while for a change, but very seldom.....dumbells are the way to go.
 
ZZuluZ said:
Another bodybuilding genius walks in with some positive feedback.

You're a thaibox smurf?

-Zulu

zulu, just when I was starting to develop a bit of respect for you, you go and make a comment like that. The guy you just insulted is a competitive bodybuilder with an advanced physique, especially his chest (with pics in the pics forum), and you have the nerve to say something like that. You really should open your eyes before you go saying retarded shit like that!!!!!!!
 
That's exactly what I'm talking about.

You respect him only because he's a competitive bodybuilder.

I, on the other hand don't respect people for their physiques. I respect them based on their intelligence, their knowledge, their willingness to help others. This guy has exhibited none of the aftermentioned.

-Zulu
 
ZZuluZ said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about.

You respect him only because he's a competitive bodybuilder.

I, on the other hand don't respect people for their physiques. I respect them based on their intelligence, their knowledge, their willingness to help others. This guy has exhibited none of the aftermentioned.

-Zulu

Again you're wrong, he has demonstrated all of that, but obviously not in the little world in which you live. He is very knowlegable, in everything from training, gear use, and diet, but you not knowing any of that, come here and insult him, showing again who is the one without the knowlege!
 
ZZuluZ said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about.

You respect him only because he's a competitive bodybuilder.

I, on the other hand don't respect people for their physiques. I respect them based on their intelligence, their knowledge, their willingness to help others. This guy has exhibited none of the aftermentioned.

-Zulu

Intelligence? I fail to see the lack of intelligence on my part. Why don't you point that out for me. Also, I'm a chemistry graduate with a straight A average and now I'm studying to be a pharmacist, so I think my intelligence level is up to par with yours, and most likely above.
Knowledge? I've been bodybuilding for 10 yrs, and with respect to that, my level of knowledge is definately higher than yours.
Willingness to help others? I've helped a lot of people get started in bodybuilding, and I've helped a lot reach their goals. My 2nd paragraph in my last post was to give everyone some USEFUL information on the subject.

Do you respect me now?......probably not, because like I said, your a punk idiot clown
.....by the way......what's with all the big words? It doesn't make you look any more intelligent!!
 
I do not you. From your post you obviously had little constructive to say other than:

"Take dbol and do incline for hUUUGe pecs, heheh!!!"

Maybe you're a very intelligent and knowledgeable fellow.

THIS did not illustrate it:

" Zulu, you're a clown. Why don't you get on a good d-bol/test cycle , hmmmm dddd-bboool.....hmmmm teeessst, and after about 3-4 wks, when you get FULL FUCKING BLOWN even when you're spanking the monkey, walk into the gym and start with a few incline dumbell presses......next chest workout, do flat's......you'll see which one blows your upper chest up like a balloon! "

-Zulu
 
decadur said:


Intelligence? I fail to see the lack of intelligence on my part. Why don't you point that out for me. Also, I'm a chemistry graduate with a straight A average and now I'm studying to be a pharmacist, so I think my intelligence level is up to par with yours, and most likely above.
Knowledge? I've been bodybuilding for 10 yrs, and with respect to that, my level of knowledge is definately higher than yours.
Willingness to help others? I've helped a lot of people get started in bodybuilding, and I've helped a lot reach their goals. My 2nd paragraph in my last post was to give everyone some USEFUL information on the subject.

Do you respect me now?......probably not, because like I said, your a punk idiot clown
.....by the way......what's with all the big words? It doesn't make you look any more intelligent!!


Ok, without judging your intellingence b/c I don't know you. Having a straight A average isn't too complicated especially at most schools. I've known some fairly unintelligent people who have pulled that off. Training for 10 years doesn't make you any more knowledgeable in that area as well. And, the put downs that you guys sling back and forth are just unnecessary.

(and just for the record, for the most part, I happen to like everyone here, and I'm not trying to take sides, or put anyone down - I'm trying to respect everyones opinion)

Here's what I find odd though. While some guys, like needsize and thaibox and many more have some incredible physiques, and certainly have many years of training under their belt, do you guys think you are on par with Arnold?

Yet, if Arnold came in here, telling you that you could expand the rib cage, and all the other nonsense he espoused, you guys would jump down his throat! Especially if his screen name was SSAlex ;-). But would all his experience and impressive physique make him anymore correct? No.

Why don't we just keep an open attitude about learning knew information, rather than shut off new information that may be very correct?
 
MarshallPenniford said:



Ok, without judging your intellingence b/c I don't know you. Having a straight A average isn't too complicated especially at most schools. I've known some fairly unintelligent people who have pulled that off. Training for 10 years doesn't make you any more knowledgeable in that area as well. And, the put downs that you guys sling back and forth are just unnecessary.

(and just for the record, for the most part, I happen to like everyone here, and I'm not trying to take sides, or put anyone down - I'm trying to respect everyones opinion)

Here's what I find odd though. While some guys, like needsize and thaibox and many more have some incredible physiques, and certainly have many years of training under their belt, do you guys think you are on par with Arnold?

Yet, if Arnold came in here, telling you that you could expand the rib cage, and all the other nonsense he espoused, you guys would jump down his throat! Especially if his screen name was SSAlex ;-). But would all his experience and impressive physique make him anymore correct? No.

Why don't we just keep an open attitude about learning knew information, rather than shut off new information that may be very correct?

Your point about Arnold was a good one, I have to give you that. But that's why I don't just automatically do what every guy who is bigger than me, tells me to do. Some guys have great trainers that do all the thinking for them, or just have great genetics and lots of drugs and get huge without having a clue. That's why I take everything with a grain of salt. I would prefer to get my advice from (this sounds egotistical) guys like me, decadur, bfold, thaibox, and other guys in the same boat. Guys that started off small, in my case tiny, and had to fight their ass off for every ounce of muscle gained, and read everything they could get their hands on along the way. But there also guys around here, like Andy13 from the anabolic board, who has probably never seen a a weight room in his life, but is probably the smartest guy I've ever seen, and knows more about anabolics that most of the board put together.
So I take my info from a huge variety of sources, but for me to value what I'm hearing/reading, I need to know where that info is coming from.
 
ZZuluZ said:
I do not you. From your post you obviously had little constructive to say other than:

"Take dbol and do incline for hUUUGe pecs, heheh!!!"

Maybe you're a very intelligent and knowledgeable fellow.

-Zulu

OK Zulu, without talking trash, I was simply pointing out the fact that incline dumbell (or barbell) presses are required to develop your upper chest to its full potential. I din't say "do inclines to get hUUUGe pecs, duh!" Of course flat presses and some decline is needed as well for overall chest development, but the idea is to hit the muscle from all possible angles for overall development.
I'm not disagreeing with you and saying that flats are no good, but you can ramble on until you're blue in the face but you're not gonna convince me, or many others, that incline presses are NOT necessary to fully develop your chest.
Post a pic, lets see your upper pecs.
 
Would I listen to advice from someone who is knowledgeable AND has a "great" physique?

Of course I would.

Would I listen to advice from someone who is knowledgeable BUT does not have a "great" physique?

Only if that person is sometype of strength and conditioning or bodybuilding coach. (and I don't mean any PT)

Basically...there are too many "know it alls" in the world..especially when it comes to this topic. As someone pointed out before, You can find a study to back up almost anything.

So if we are discussing theory..that is one thing, and I love to listen to theories.

But when it comes to reality and what HAS WORKED, I really only respect the advice of my fellow "iron men" who have been pushing around barbells and dumbells day in and day out for years.

I am sick of people saying that it doesn't matter if you have 20 inch arms or can bench 600 pounds...because it matters to me.

If you have 20 inch arms and can bench 600 pounds...Odds are, you know what the FUCK you are doing!!(there are some exceptions)

Zulu, you are by far more knowledgeable than 95% of 16 year olds. But odds are, you have only been lifting 2-3 years tops. And you have probably never experienced a true plateau in your training OR your chest development. In my opinion you should take it down a couple of notches.

Because you are starting to sound like a "know it all."

Not flaming...just giving my .02.

Be wary in using the word FACT or PROVEN in bodybuilding.
 
I am not claiming to have any answers. I agree that stating my point of view as fact was wrong-- and I apologized for it.

"I am sick of people saying that it doesn't matter if you have 20 inch arms or can bench 600 pounds...because it matters to me.

If you have 20 inch arms and can bench 600 pounds...Odds are, you know what the FUCK you are doing!!(there are some exceptions)"

How is your Flex routine coming along??

'Post a pic, lets see your upper pecs."

If I post a pic of Arnold will you start doing pullovers to expand your ribcage?

You guys still aren't getting it. I do not care what your chest looks like.

====

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. That is all I'm trying to say and obviously I'm met with quite a deal of disagreement.

" Basically...there are too many "know it alls" in the world..especially when it comes to this topic. As someone pointed out before, You can find a study to back up almost anything. "

Which is why you analyze it critically. What was the time span? Does correlation equal causation? Was it statistically significant, etc...

-Zulu
 
How Cute!

ZZuluZ said:


How is your Flex routine coming along??

-Zulu

Awwww....now you are acting your age.

You keep analyzing other people's studies(THEORIES)...I am going to the gym to do some squats.(REALITY)

I never asked and I don't expect you to post a pic because you are probably a skinny 16 year old who likes to read.

I was a skinny 16 year old too BUT I have paid my dues with 13 years of lifting.

Peace..I have to prepare myself for squats.
 
Usually when I do chest I will do:
3x6 Decline DB
3x6 Incline DB
3x6 Flat DB
5x6 Flyers

Two days ago, just because of this post, I decided to do the following:
5x6 Incline BB
5x6 Incline DB
5x6 Flat Flyers

I noticed two things. My lower chest did not get sore as much and my chest seemed to get its pump higher than with my other routine (for a rounder, more fully chest look). What does this proves? Nothing, it's just my observation. I am going to continue my second routine for a few weeks and see how it goes.
 
Zulu, and everyone else; please read this at least two times. And then read it again. And maybe once more. And just for the joy of it, give it a go one more time.

GUYS WHO JUST LIFT
By Bob Whelan

Reprinted with permission of The Dinosaur Files

These guys don't just talk about training, read about it, write on the internet about it, or make excuses about why they can't do it. They just lift. These guys are the backbone of the Iron Game. They are the passion and the beauty of modern strength training. These guys are my brothers. Guys who work hard, sweat buckets, and move great poundages regularly and diligently in the icy cold garages of New England, in the barns of Iowa, or in the basements of London.

These are regular guys who train with a tenacity and dedication that is anything but regular. They do this because they love it. They believe in it. It is almost spiritual to them. They get no money, fame or glory for it. No one is making them do it; they just do it for themselves. They love getting stronger but would never dream of taking steroids to gain strength.

They just love to train hard and stretch their natural physical capacity to the limit. They live their life by the sacred code of our physical culture forefathers -- the code of GOOD HEALTH, STRENGTH, and DEDICATION, not the latest megahype gimmick.

I am talking about guys like Jon Schultheis of Keansburg, New Jersey, who is one of the strongest guys that you have probably never heard of. Jon has come down to train with me a few times, and I've put him through some brutal workouts. He loves to train hard. So does Jim Duggan of Seaford, New York, who can bench press over 400 pounds for several reps with a 3" bar! (Jim is one of the best natural lifters of all time.) Guys like Paul Condron of Manchester, England, who does regular farmers walks with 120 pound bells, going uphill for about 1/4 mile, or Lowell Boisen of Sioux City, Iowa, who is 65 years young and does regular power rack training, outside, including partial deadlifts with over 500 pounds!

There are many more guys like them, and I wish I could mention them all. They all deserve some recognition. Guys like these define what strength training is all about. The pure love of training. The brotherhood of iron. We all share this common goal and common bond that unites us. Passion for natural strength and hard training. Iron Nation is the brotherhood of Iron, Strength and Hard Work. All are welcome if they are willing to pay the price. Race, religion, political or nationality don't matter when you are battling iron. Citizenship to this nation requires only EFFORT and DOING, not excuses and theorizing.

You earn respect only by DOING. Not talking. Nothing turns me off more than a so-called expert who does not even train. There are so many of them. Many conferences and seminars are given by guys with 12-inch necks! It's incredible! These are the types of guys who usually spend hours each day on the internet arguing about strength training philosophy. They love to attack or put down others but would never have the balls to say it to their faces. They hide behind the computer screen, usually thousands of miles away using a phony name. The funny thing is that many if not most of these guys do not train and are ashamed to be seen.

Many of the PhD researcher types also fall into this category. They can talk forever about the human physiological response to strength training. However, they know nothing about real world strength training because they don't do it.

Respect is earned by doing, but it's not just how much you life that earns respect. It's about EFFORT. It's the guys who just lift that make brotherhood and good will come naturally. They are willing to put forth the effort and dedication that earns respect and promotes camaraderie. It's hard not to like a guy who works his ass off! It's hard not to respect a coach who works your ass off. Even a beginner who is not strong will be respected and liked if he works hard. People who train hard themselves usually respect others who train hard. They respect hard work because they do it. They know how it feels! They understand how tough it is. It's usually the pencil-neck type, who doesn't train hard himself, who loves to foster ill will and argue about minor issues (not load related). In fact, load (or poundage) is the last thing these guys want to talk about. They are more comfortable typing pages of excuses on the internet than getting themselves under the squat rack.

To all these geek types, here is some simple advice: SHUT UP AND LIFT!
 
'Awwww....now you are acting your age. "

You said you'd take advice from people who have 20 inch guns because they're doing something right. Then read flex magazing...they're full of people with 20 inch guns. Is the fallacy in your reasoning becoming apparent?

IRON, you're a disgrace. Ignornace is not a virtue and it never will be. Sure, go ahead and lift. Don't think twice. Don't bother debating or looking for answers. Ignorance is bliss...

-Zulu
 
ZZuluZ said:
'Awwww....now you are acting your age. "

You said you'd take advice from people who have 20 inch guns because they're doing something right. Then read flex magazing...they're full of people with 20 inch guns. Is the fallacy in your reasoning becoming apparent?

IRON, you're a disgrace. Ignornace is not a virtue and it never will be. Sure, go ahead and lift. Don't think twice. Don't bother debating or looking for answers. Ignorance is bliss...

-Zulu

Christ this is getting tiresome!! The vets on this board were more than willing to accept your apology on how you came across, and move on, but you just keep sticking your foot in your mouth and trying to act like you are an expert. I for one am quite sick of it, you're 16, can't possibly have any serious training behind you, yet you come here and give advice, what the fuck is that????? At your age you should be here to get advice, not dole it out! But yet you have the nerve to talk shit to the guys on here that have built physiques that you can only wish you had. Time and time again bro's have tried to explain themselves and how they view things to you in a nice manner, and you keep coming back with this bullshit. I am one of the last people on here to talk shit to anyone, but bro, you need to get a goddamn clue!!!
Come back when you actually have something to show for this VAST wealth of knowlege you seem to think you possess, either a physique that doesn't look like a before pic in a cybergenics ad, or a degree in something!
 
Iron ...great read. It seems the truth is getting to Zulu.

To make a long story short:

Zulu is 16. Zulu is ignorant. Zulu thinks he knows more than a professional bodybuilder.

I feel sorry for him.

nuff sed
 
I must admit. It is becoming quite clear that Zulu is nothing more than a egghead with a highspeed internet connection.

I'm willing to bet hes never even touched a weight in his life.

Hes the highschool nerd thats never played a sport in his life. Alls he can do is try and look smart because he has no real experience. It is becoming more obvious with every post.
 
We'll talk in like 5 years folks. I'll upload pics then.

I've never met a close minded bunch like you guys anywhere online.

You really do live up to bodybuidling stereotypes :)

"Zulu thinks he knows more than a professional bodybuilder. "

You think you know more than Arnold.... seems like your little paradigm works both ways. I never said I knew more than him. You guys have to start analyzing what I say more critically. I really haven't insulted any of you.

-Zulu
 
Zulu, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if I was closeminded then I would neverhave achieved what i have over the part 10 years. And if I remember correctly, you are the one who came on this thread and declared in no uncertain terms, that it could not be done, while the rest of us merely stated our opinions. I have nothing against you personally, but the role of a teenager (or anyone else for that matter) in this game is to learn, and you don't seem to be here to do that. I just hope that the attitude you display here isn't the one you carry in the other areas of your life, especially the gym. All false modesty aside, I am the biggest/strongest guy in my gym, but probably one of the most modest as well But then generally seems to be the case with the hardcore types, the bigger you get, the more modest (just look at b fold), I do hope you develop this yourself and achieve everything you set out to.
 
ZZuluZ said:
We'll talk in like 5 years folks.

Why wait? The guys you have been arguing with have pics now showing the validaty for their side of the discussion. With your obvious vast knowledge you should be able to post pics now and shut us all up.

.02,
Joker
 
Your tones are extremely condescending.

Being the great bodybuilders that you are I would think that you guys, especially, would be open to criticism. Be open to new ideas. To debunking of myths. To debating.

Obviously, insults and one upmanship is what it's all about here. It's all about pics and stats.

Personally I don't claim to be uber knowledgeable about anything. It'd be nice for me to post my opinion without being bombarded with insults, questioning my experience and or asking me for pics.

If something is wrong about my advice in this thread or another refute my advice, not me as a person.

An opinion which does not stand up to examination is less than worthless. same for everyone.

-Zulu
 
If you are not claiming to be an expert in anything, then perhaps all you need to do is step back and take a look at the way your opinions are worded. I have read through them myself, and they do tend to come across as though your word/opinion is law.

I am no expert myself. I am here to learn. That's why you will never see me tell someone that the way I do it is the right way. It may be the way I do it, but it is sure not the only way and it's very possible it's not the best way.

The guys here are more than willing to hear a different opinion or side to any argument. The way your posts are written come across offensive and with a "Holier than thou" attitude. Your opinions are welcome by all. Just maybe wording a little differently could keep these posts from turning into insult contests and keep them informational and educational.

.02,
Joker
 
Joker, I agree.

I haven't expressed myself well at all. I apologized for it already earlier in this thread.

My words are not gospel, they are my opinion.

Obviously, nobody is gonna let go of what I said...

-Zulu
 
zulu, some of us had let go, and then you went and started trashing people again, without knowing who it was you were insulting.
 
ZZuluZ said:
Joker, I agree.

I haven't expressed myself well at all. I apologized for it already earlier in this thread.

My words are not gospel, they are my opinion.

Obviously, nobody is gonna let go of what I said...

-Zulu

It's all in the way ones opinion is expressed.:D


Joker
 
"zulu, some of us had let go, and then you went and started trashing people again, without knowing who it was you were insulting."

Because that competitive bodybuilding guy had nothing productive to say in that particular post. All he did was insult me.

Then some guy posted about how we should all just shut up and train. Makes me wonder why he even posts here.

I take people words at face value. Even if the guy was the King of Belgium I wouldn't mend my words after he'd insulted me.

Hope that clears it up,

-Zulu
 
Man I hate when these long threeds get so off the topic and everyone just ends up arguing about what the other said and how everyone needs to just shut the fuck up (Zulu). Let's hear the other side of the argument. We've heard "scientifically impossible" and "anatomy and physiology is on my side", but let us hear WHY. I don't believe I've heard any sound evidence yet. There must be an anatomical and physiological reason WHY inclines don't hit the clavicular part more, right? So let's hear it!

Is it beacuse inclines only put the sternal part at a mechanical disadvantage? This reason alone doesn't cut it for me, my friends. See.. Yes, they do that. But that is not all that they do. What about the greater stretch and the greater contraction I can get in my upper region at an inclined angle? Are you going to tell me that it doesn't exist when nearly everybody who does inclines can feel it? Well read on and I will explain to you why they DO exist.

Look, the way I see it, it's all about bringing the origion to the insertion. As an experiment, let us try this... Use your forefinger to feel the tendon connecting the pec major to the humerus (front of your armpit) with your arm at your side. Now keep your finger there and put your thumb on your clavicle. Continue to feel them as you bring your arm up front to 135 degrees. Now at which angle is the tendon closest to the clavicle? The answer is, if you're human, somewhere around 135 degrees. Therefore, at that angle, the clavicular part will get a noticeably more complete flex.

You can try this also with stretching. Start off with your standard doorway pec stretch, with your upper arm at a 90 degree angle of your body. Good stretch, eh? OK, now raise your arm slightly higher to say 135 degrees and lean into it. Notice how we're now stretching the lower pec? Now lower your arm to about 45 degrees and pull on that doorway. Doing it this way, I get a greater stretch along the top of my pec leading to the clavicle. It feels very much like a couple of heavy db's pulling my arms down on an incline bench. :D

It'd be cool if I got a response this time. :)
 
ZZuluZ said:


Then some guy posted about how we should all just shut up and train. Makes me wonder why he even posts here.
-Zulu

I post here because of stupid, ignorant and totally idiotic cunts like you. You, Sir, are an idiot. Now, go back to your "Exercise science for dummies" and post your pics in five years. I'm sure I'll enjoy your 6'3, 110lbs. ripped physique.

Peace.

EDIT: Oh, and I post here once in a while to get good laugh. In the expence of guys like you and SSAssSS.
 
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IF you not feel "inclined" to emphaSIZE upper chest here is a nice free weights routine:

session 1:
5 * 5 incline benchpress (45" angle)
2 * triple drop sets(8-6 reps) incline (30" angle) db flyes
2 * triple drop sets flat dumbell press
2 * triple drop sets flat flyes supersetted with wide dips

session 2:
5 * 8 incline dumbell press (45")
2 * triple drop sets(8-6 reps) incline (30" angle) db flyes
2 * triple drop sets flat benchpress
2 * triple drop sets flat flyes supersetted with wide dips

session 3:
5 * 5 incline smithmachine press (30" angle)
2 * triple drop sets(8-6 reps) incline (45" angle) db flyes
2 * triple drop sets flat dumbell press
2 * triple drop sets flat flyes supersetted with wide dips

session 4:
5 * 8 incline dumbell press (30")
2 * triple drop sets(8-6 reps) incline (45" angle) db flyes
2 * triple drop sets flat benchpress
2 * triple drop sets flat flyes supersetted with wide dips

repeat

Supersetting flat flyes with dips is a nice killer for the lower chest you will find out.....
 
Also I feel that front delts can be a "make or break" factor for your incline benchpresses which is why I lately favour the millitary press over the behind neck press....

Question for Bfold, do you feel that your power cleans contribute to incline benchpresses?
 
I'll quote Bob Whelan one more time, just for you Zulu. Read this. Please, just do it. And think about it in the dark hours of night, when it's silent and you can let your thoughts run free.

Respect is earned by doing, but it's not just how much you lift that earns respect. It's about EFFORT. It's the guys who just lift that make brotherhood and good will come naturally. They are willing to put forth the effort and dedication that earns respect and promotes camaraderie. It's hard not to like a guy who works his ass off! It's hard not to respect a coach who works your ass off. Even a beginner who is not strong will be respected and liked if he works hard. People who train hard themselves usually respect others who train hard. They respect hard work because they do it. They know how it feels! They understand how tough it is. It's usually the pencil-neck type, who doesn't train hard himself, who loves to foster ill will and argue about minor issues (not load related). In fact, load (or poundage) is the last thing these guys want to talk about. They are more comfortable typing pages of excuses on the internet than getting themselves under the squat rack.
 
*sigh* Forget it Iron. You've obviously got nothing valid to contribute.

If you only come online to have a good laugh at people I suggest you go back to your trailor park home and start doing something productive.

-Zulu
 
LOL, what a comeback. I'm very offended now, very hurt. You compared me to trailorpark trash.

Ninja, please...:newbie:
 
Damn, I leave for a couple days and you manage to keep this bullshit rolling Zulu.

You know, I teach an unrelated field at a community college part time. Every class(unfortunately) has a Zulu in it. That one arrogant little prick that sits in front of the class spouting his big words, clouding his shallow waters in order to appear deep. Yeah, the one that got his ass beat throughout high school. One of the most important things I've learned during my own education was how to distinguish between those whom I should listen to, and those to just nod and smile at.

The people who have the most to say, usually speak the least. The people who speak the most, usually have the least to say.

Thank you George for having an 'ignore' option on these boards:angel:
 
I must say I've had a good laugh at some of the things you guys have had to say :)

Thanks for the laughs folks.

-Zulu
 
From the study that I cannot scan in right now, my interpetation of the results:

Clavicular head is slightly more active at 45 degree incline through integrated EMG analysis (using computer modeling)

It is more active wrt grip changes than degree of incline. Moving the grip in from twice shoulder width to shoulder width increased the activation of the clavicalular head.

A combination of the two will have the greatest effect. This is the result that is statiscally significant.

Personal observations (My opinion only)

From observing lifters who did not received supervised coach, I have noticed a slight tendency toward moving the grip in somewhat wrt flat bench when performing inclines. This would give results similar to the study in question. Also, it is simply explained as this not only increases the ROM, which would promote an overall increase, but can effect changes in recruitment patterns over time. Not measured in any study were sequences of ennervation, probably due to cost and/or difficulty in finding subjects (this method required EMG probes, not sensors).
 
"I must say I've had a good laugh at some of the things you guys have had to say :)"

But what about what I had to say? :confused:
 
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'But what about what I had to say?"

I didn't laugh at what you had to say, I'm glad you offered an opinion and justified it. I don't know what to tell you. I tried your little exercise and it is correct, however I don't know how this translates to muscle activiation during various exercises.

Thank you very much for that explanation Arioch. I find it interesting that GRIP NOT INCLINE is a more important factor here.

-Zulu
 
Sleaze - It seems to me, with the arm elevated like that, that your pec is just "pushing upwards", so it feels like there is a contraction occuring in the clavicular portion. Who knows. I can feel it contracting just fine with a flat bench movement as well.
 
Ok, one quick question. Are we discussing the clavicular head, or are we talking about the upper region of the sternocaostal head?

IMO, developing the clavicular head won't make your "upper chest" look any bigger, so it seems that we are questioning if you can target a specific region in the sternocostal head. Yes?
 
MarshallPenniford said:
Ok, one quick question. Are we discussing the clavicular head, or are we talking about the upper region of the sternocaostal head?

IMO, developing the clavicular head won't make your "upper chest" look any bigger, so it seems that we are questioning if you can target a specific region in the sternocostal head. Yes?

chances are clavicular head is being justified as the "upper" chest argument, but as a bodybuilding generalization chances are clavicular and upper region of sternal head is what is being referred to.

this argument is becoming trivial now. the majority of people on this thread are arguing over the clavicular and sternal head as justification of upper and lower chest. the fact of the matter is that there is varying degrees of muscle involvement/recruitment to accomplish the particular task. example: joe bb'er is doing incline presses so the fibers most effective for accomplishing the task are going to be fired. ie, the ones which serve to move the humerus the most effectively. if those are the fibers that run in the upper portion of the torso/pectoral region, then thats where it will be. thats not to say that those given fibers dont belong to motor units which have fibers in the mid to lower regions of the pectorals. being on the same neural loop, muscle contractions will occur there too.
when dealing with compound movements, its tough to generalize due to so many factors involved. grip width (in this case) was mentioned as can be range of motion etc. at different points in the ROM, different muscles will have a better or more involved role in that motion. thats why shortened ROMS are used to train parts that are lacking in a motion (lockouts, 1/4 reps etc.)
 
I have been working on my upper pec region for the last few months with good results, this is my chest workout:-

Incline Dumbell Press (approx 35 degree angle) x 3
Flat Barbell Press x 3
Very High Incline Dumbell press (about 65-70 degrees) x 2

these very high inclines have been doing the job, but you have to focus hard on using your pecs for the lift and trying to minimse the amount of involvement from the delts, I go abit lighter and slower so I can really "Target my Upper Pecs".
 
ZZuluZ said:
They do not stress your upper pecs more, this is a physiological fact.

They're not talking over the workload; the workload is reduced. Which is why you incline less than you flat bench.

-Zulu


WRONG I incline more then my flat bench Incline barbell presses for upper pec development not front shoulder presses
:finger: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
 
DirtyJa said:
I agree that doing incline works more of your upper chest, but i think what zulu is saying is that when the mussel grows, it doesn't't remember what section of that mussel got worked harder. It just knows the whole mussel needs to grow.



little bitches cant even spell WTF? Grow some muscle before you talk shit
 
ZZuluZ said:
"Bfold is too nice of a bro to say it. But I'm not. Zulu, you're an asshole. I'm tired of reading your arrogant responses to every single fucking thread that comes about with bullshit that you spew as gospel. "X is fact", "X is physiologically impossible", "I know many vets and PhDs that agree with ..." You are 16. Get some experience, grow some muscle, and come back later. This is exactly the type of attitude that is going to get your ass kicked many times in your life. Learn to shut the fuck up, be respectful, make friends, and learn something. Jesus"

IF you think my response is arrogant you need to get some physchiatric help. I'm only trying to offer my input. I even said it was my most humble of opinions and you shouldn't take my word for it.

Stop addressing yourself to me.

-Zulu


WTF? You little bitch Id like to hunt you down and kill you It would be pleasurable But its not all about living out fantasies in life hehe You never know :blow:
 
ZZuluZ said:
Look folks, I shouldn't have stated my views as fact. That's the only thing I'm going to apologize for.

Age is a meaningless concept.

"but as a 16 year old you don't have the training experience to back up what you are posting. "

Common man, you know that's bull. I made some errors in this thread [and perhaps in other threads]. I'll admit to that. But to brush off everything I say because I'm younger than you, is quite dissapointing.

It is clear that on this board an invisible hierarchy

-Zulu

I dont see this "invisible hierarchy" you speak of. You want us to feel sorry for you? Have we offended you? You need to humble yourself. Guys in this board lifting 900lbs arent nearly as arrogant as you are! Why dont you try listening more? AGE isnt a meaningless concept Have you lifted for 10-20 years like some on here? You seem to be missing that experience. You sure talk alot of shit. Build a base first before you bitch and moan about upper chest development. I doubt you have any to speak of, book knowledge is worthless when someone has little to no experience in a weight room. Think I made my point :bawling:
 
ZZuluZ said:
We'll talk in like 5 years folks. I'll upload pics then.

I've never met a close minded bunch like you guys anywhere online.

You really do live up to bodybuidling stereotypes :)

"Zulu thinks he knows more than a professional bodybuilder. "

You think you know more than Arnold.... seems like your little paradigm works both ways. I never said I knew more than him. You guys have to start analyzing what I say more critically. I really haven't insulted any of you.

-Zulu



Awwwwwwwwww you little bitch Go to sleep or die.....:bawling:
 
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