Point to lifting while eating below maintenance?

[Burning_Inside]

I just started dieting again, and I was wondering if anyone else thinks there's no point to do any sort of strenuous lifting routines while dieting, being that you need to eat above your amr to start adding muscle. If you're dieting, you're not eating above your amr, so what's the point of killing your muslces and not giving them enough nutrients to repair themselves? I think you're just doing yourself an injustice.

 

[diamonddiceclay]

you must lift or you'll become too skinny-also, if you eat alot of protein while dieting, you can keep all of your muscle

 

[Burning_Inside]

Yes i plan on eating like 300 grams a day. See i was always under the impression that even if you ate nothing but protein, even if you ended up eating less than your amr at the end of the day, you would still lose fat and muscle.

 

[diamonddiceclay]

you won't lose muscle with high protein

 

[JustinM]

you will loose a little muscle but you want to try and keep most of it..

gl with dieting man, it sucks

peace

 

[Travbedaman]

I used to think think the same thing like..."well since I`m dieting, it really doesn`t matter what I do in the gym, or I can even skip a few days here or there, since I won`t be gaining anything"...god I was so freaking wrong.

Now I realize that you must work hard (actually I lift almost as heavy when on a strict low cal/carb diet now, because when I eat a ton , it doesn`t take me two weeks or so to gain most of my strength back). And you need to work hard for a few reasons...

You will lose signifigant muscle if you lift really light weights.

You will not burn as much fat because the more active a muscle...the more fat your body burns.

You generally won`t lose alot of strength while dieting.

 

[Spartacus]

forced labor

I've wondered about muscle loss under conditions in which a person isn't eating at a maintenance level...particularily I've thought about the people in the concentration camps who had to do hard manual labor in order to survive..obviuosly they were not fed enough protein,but the strong(in a darwinian sense) were able to survive for many years..under the Nazi system,as long as you could do the work you were spared(so to speak),and those who possessed a strong will to live did so...their bodies must have spared the muscle it felt necessary to do the work,and much of this work was extremely manual-intensive...so I'm wondering if your body will spare the stressed muscles when you are dieting and/or not getting enough protein

 

[diamonddiceclay]

no it won't

 

[riskybizz007]

You can "spare" muscle by either consuming protein or carbs. And you still will lose fat if you eat below maintenance, even if you eat all protein or all carbs. And in order to keep that muscle, yes you do have to work out. It may sound unneccessary but it's vital to preserving your muscle. And anytime you are below maintanance you are risking your muscle to be used as energy, even if you eat high protein diet. Whole point in high protein is to help preserve muscle by supplying ample amount of aminos. Your body however will need carbs for energy, and if you don't consume carbs for energy purposes it will convert that precious protein for fuel.

 

[fiatconspiracy]

your muscle need to know that they are still 'needed' so you must keep lifting, and yes you can diet and lose fat and keep and sometimes gain muscle....

 

[MR. BMJ]

TIME UNDER TENSION!!!

I almost always lower the poundages and increase reps when dieting. My joints love me for it as well. Don't get me wrong, the feeling of benching 400 pounds is great, but I would rather be around for the long haul in life as well.

BMJ

 

[Travbedaman]

I think it`s a mistake to lower the poundages (much) while dieting..I think just lowering the volume is the way to go to keep strength and muscle mass levels up.

If you want to cut back on poundages for a week to rest your muscles, it would be most wise to do it during a higher calorie diet (because you won`t lose strength or mass, due to a higher anabolic state).

 

[Blood&Iron]

TIME UNDER TENSION!!!

I almost always lower the poundages and increase reps when dieting. My joints love me for it as well. Don't get me wrong, the feeling of benching 400 pounds is great, but I would rather be around for the long haul in life as well.

BMJ

Why would lifting "heavy" be a problem while dieting? References, please. I would agree with Travbedaman that volume should be reduced but I see no problem with lifting "normally", provided you're not doing something silly like restricting dietary fat to less than 10% of calories or anything equally stupid. Just for the record, I've been dieting for the past 5 weeks using a cyclical isocaloric diet and my strength has been increasing fairly steadily.

 

[cleverlandshark2001]

I'm about to post a whole new topic on this issue...very interesting.
Peace.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Why would lifting "heavy" be a problem while dieting? References, please. I would agree with Travbedaman that volume should be reduced but I see no problem with lifting "normally", provided you're not doing something silly like restricting dietary fat to less than 10% of calories or anything equally stupid. Just for the record, I've been dieting for the past 5 weeks using a cyclical isocaloric diet and my strength has been increasing fairly steadily.

My referment was for the joints specifically. I like lifting heavy as much as anyone, but some people cannot handle the heavy weight without their joints giving them problems on a hypocaloric diet. Therefore, to compensate for the loss, you have to blast the muscles from a different perspective, which for most is increasing the intensity by increasing the reps.

The whole point on a hypo diet is to maintain the muscle you have while losing the fat. You will not gain much, if any (especially if you are a vet lifter), muscle on a low calorie diet. I'm not talking about lifting pussy weight, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the 4-6 rep range if you know what I mean. Something that I do is maybe lift lift lighter weights with more reps and add in heavy workouts every other week to every 2-3 weeks.

I must add, even moreso than dieting is that there are so many ways people can train, there is NO ONE WAY TO WORKOUT. There are too many variables that are involved. However, I do stay close to the basic movements as well.

I am also a big fan of using different rep sets to hit different muscle fibers. Duchaine was big on using different movements for each set involving sets that ioncorporate movements from different planes of motion, and I think I agree with this as well, as some of my best gains have come using a different exercise for each set.

And...last but not least, different strokes for different folks.

Do I still have to dig up some references??? Or did I clarify a little better?

BMJ

 

[Blood&Iron]

My referment was for the joints specifically. I like lifting heavy as much as anyone, but some people cannot handle the heavy weight without their joints giving them problems on a hypocaloric diet. Therefore, to compensate for the loss, you have to blast the muscles from a different perspective, which for most is increasing the intensity by increasing the reps.

The whole point on a hypo diet is to maintain the muscle you have while losing the fat. You will not gain much, if any (especially if you are a vet lifter), muscle on a low calorie diet. I'm not talking about lifting pussy weight, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the 4-6 rep range if you know what I mean. Something that I do is maybe lift lift lighter weights with more reps and add in heavy workouts every other week to every 2-3 weeks.

I must add, even moreso than dieting is that there are so many ways people can train, there is NO ONE WAY TO WORKOUT. There are too many variables that are involved. However, I do stay close to the basic movements as well.

I am also a big fan of using different rep sets to hit different muscle fibers. Duchaine was big on using different movements for each set involving sets that ioncorporate movements from different planes of motion, and I think I agree with this as well, as some of my best gains have come using a different exercise for each set.

And...last but not least, different strokes for different folks.

Do I still have to dig up some references??? Or did I clarify a little better?

BMJ

I don't have any problem with the concept of switching rep ranges, etc for reasons of hypertrophy, but I still don't see any physiological reason why a calorie deficit would cause joint problems. Improper lifting technique and/or excessive volume? Yes. Calorie restriction? No(Of course I'm excluding starvations situations, etc.) So other than your experience, yes, I still need references to be convinced of this fact. From my experience, it is imperative to try to maintain, and if possible increase, one's poundages (The adaption will, of course, be primarily, if not completely, neurological.) to maintain muscle mass while dieting.

 

[MR. BMJ]

I don't have any problem with the concept of switching rep ranges, etc for reasons of hypertrophy, but I still don't see any physiological reason why a calorie deficit would cause joint problems. Improper lifting technique and/or excessive volume? Yes. Calorie restriction? No(Of course I'm excluding starvations situations, etc.) So other than your experience, yes, I still need references to be convinced of this fact. From my experience, it is imperative to try to maintain, and if possible increase, one's poundages (The adaption will, of course, be primarily, if not completely, neurological.) to maintain muscle mass while dieting.

I'll see what i can find as far as references go, however you can't deny the increased pains many people complain about when on an under maintenance calorie diet.

"Improper lifting technique and/or excessive volume?"

Most definately! I agree totally with this. However, many people get the concept that they will be able to lift the same amount of poundages as they could when following a higher calorie diet, then only to find out they can't. Ideally, if the diet is right, then most people should be able to maintain these levels, but due to cecreased liver and muscle glycogen as well as IGF and hormonal level declines, they are at a disadvantage. I really don't think many people will increase their lifts much if at all on a sub-maintenance diet.

I do agree that in order to keep an anabolic state that one should incorporate heavy weights to keep themselves primed. However, on a sub-maintenance diet this will in my opinion be totally directed towards decreasing muscle catabolism and not for an increase in much anabolism.

I don't think I am disagreeing with you much here...maybe my initial response was misleading as i do incorporate "some" heavy weight reps, but tend to cut it down to less weight and higher reps due to joint pains...as many people have to do. Really, I think a combination of both is ideal. I really don't like getting into debates over training as anything is basically game and seems to work as long as you know how to take into consideration other factors like hormonal and neurological changes and conditions.

I will agree that heavy weight is ideal for a more anabolic state of growth if one's body allows it....However, i don't necessarily think you need to go heavy each time you work that particular bodypart. Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is the fact that some muscles will grow better at low rep/heavy weights and some at high rep/less heavy weights. At the end of each set, whether high rep or low rep, the weight will be heavy.

Let me know what ya think about this....Agree or disagree?

BMJ

 

[Pharm Animal]

....However, i don't necessarily think you need to go heavy each time you work that particular bodypart. ....Agree or disagree?

BMJ

fuck yeah, i agree. this has turned into a very interesting discussion thread! thanks guys!

PA

 

[D00fy]

on my last diet to shed some fat i was eating lots of protein........... funny thing is i did lift hard real hard ,cardio hardly any but i did look more leaner and looked like i perserved my mass ,didn't loose lower stomach as much as i planned this diet i hope i do so

 

[Blood&Iron]

I'll see what i can find as far as references go, however you can't deny the increased pains many people complain about when on an under maintenance calorie diet.

I haven't done any surveys or anything, but in my experience and that of a few friends this is not the case. Not saying it isn't true, just that I haven't heard this before

"Improper lifting technique and/or excessive volume?"

Most definately! I agree totally with this. However, many people get the concept that they will be able to lift the same amount of poundages as they could when following a higher calorie diet, then only to find out they can't.

To me this is a sign that the person is doing something wrong. Generally, I pretty much maintain my poundages while dieting--though I *really* have to bust my ass--and recently have actually been increasing them. A friend of mine was also able to pull this off, though I thought his diet was shit(Basically, he was living on MRP's and oatmeal.)

Ideally, if the diet is right, then most people should be able to maintain these levels, but due to cecreased liver and muscle glycogen as well as IGF and hormonal level declines, they are at a disadvantage. I really don't think many people will increase their lifts much if at all on a sub-maintenance diet.
I do agree that in order to keep an anabolic state that one should incorporate heavy weights to keep themselves primed. However, on a sub-maintenance diet this will in my opinion be totally directed towards decreasing muscle catabolism and not for an increase in much anabolism.

I'd pretty much agree with this statement.

I don't think I am disagreeing with you much here...maybe my initial response was misleading as i do incorporate "some" heavy weight reps, but tend to cut it down to less weight and higher reps due to joint pains...as many people have to do. Really, I think a combination of both is ideal. I really don't like getting into debates over training as anything is basically game and seems to work as long as you know how to take into consideration other factors like hormonal and neurological changes and conditions.

I will agree that heavy weight is ideal for a more anabolic state of growth if one's body allows it....However, i don't necessarily think you need to go heavy each time you work that particular bodypart. Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is the fact that some muscles will grow better at low rep/heavy weights and some at high rep/less heavy weights. At the end of each set, whether high rep or low rep, the weight will be heavy.

I have some residual HIT tendencies that preclude me from using anything but "heavy" weights(But, I might define heavy differently. For me it just means, non-excessive reps, and going to failure. It's NOT neccesarily 3-5 reps.) But I'm thinking I might give German Body Composition a try in the next few weeks, since I REALLY need to give my body a break from ephedra, so that it actually does something, and at this point I don't think I could have a good "normal" workout without it(Really disturbing, but, oh well.)

Let me know what ya think about this....Agree or disagree?

BMJ

 

[riskybizz007]

Personally I always used to do what MrBMJ does, go lighter weight and more reps when cutting. I read a bit on HIIT training when cutting and I can honestly say I kept much more muscle while doing this. Some people even said I gained while I cut, I don't believe this, but i do think I shed more fat and kept more muscle going heavy.

I'll go 1-2 weeks of higher reps when I can no longer see gains or i'm not going up in weight anymore, just to incorporate a different technique, confuse muscles, and relieve joints a bit.

I don't know if this is true or not, but i have read somewhere that doing reps over 12-15 increased the amount of estrogen produced in male athletes.

 

[Travbedaman]

quote:
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Originally posted by MR. BMJ

however you can't deny the increased pains many people complain about when on an under maintenance calorie diet.
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I just came off off a low calorie (1800-2000) and low carb (50-75) diet and trained as heavy as I normally do...I felt no extra "pain" besides being a little extra sore the day after (due to the body recovering slower).