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Please help a noob - How often to lift?

H

Hellbore

New member
I have actually lifted before but I don't have tons of experience.

There is a question that my friends and I have debated over the years and I don't know who is right. Here it is. 2 things (and remember we are NATURAL lifters, none of us is using gear or anything but protein):

He says a muscle group only needs 48 hours of time to recover. He says it's OK to lift the same muscle group 3 times a week. I always thought it worked better for me to do 1 or 2 times a week. Even if I do 2 times I only like going hard and heavy 1 time a week. Who's right? Does your body need that much time or is it OK to bench every other day?

The second thing is the issue of getting sore. When I lift hard and heavy, I get really sore, not the next day but 2 days after. Then I stay sore until it has been 4 or 5 days. I have been lifting for about 6 weeks now and I still get sore. I always push myself. About 7 years ago I lifted on a regular basis for a year and saw great gains, but I seem to remember getting sore on a regular basis.

However, he says after 2 weeks or so of lifting, your body gets used to it and you don't get sore any more. Is this true? Why am I not used to it, how come I get sore? Is it possible that he's not getting sore simply because he's not pushing himself hard enough? Or is it that I am doing something wrong and that's why I still get sore?

Does soreness tell us anything? I thought it meant your body was rebuilding, getting stronger. Is is really possible to shred the muscle and rebuild it bigger, without getting sore in the process?
 
I found training full body 3x per week on mon weds and fri using monday as a medium weights day, weds as light and fri as heavy/max effort pretty much cut out all DOMS... I'm almost suprised now when I get sore although I'm not doing much isolation work and when I throw some of that in I still get the odd ache.
 
There is no way in hell you can train a muscle hard 3x a week and not overtrain. A muscle should be trained HARD no more then once per week. Now don't listen to the people who are on more drugs then Jimi Hendrix, like the ones you see in the magazines.

It pisses me off when they show the split routine, 6 day a week workouts that these pro freaks do. New people to the sport of bodybuilding/powerlifting read these routines and think they are the way to go. Without drugs, your body just can't rebuild fast enough. Overtraining is VERY real and it can wreck havoc on your body AND mind. Depression, fatigue, weakness, trouble sleeping etc.. Don't go that route. I suffered from overtraining and I really thought I was sick. Once I cut way back working out, everything got much better and my gains started coming back.

If you are new to lifting, I would say 3x a week, for no more then 1 1/2 hour, working different muscles each time is the most you should do. You can do Biceps/Triceps day one, Chest/Shoulders day two, Legs/Back day 3 for instance. Take a day off in between each workout, and 2 days after the 3rd. You can tell if you can do more or less then that, but you will need to fine tune it by the way you feel. If start feeling tired and your gains start DEcreasing, take more time in between workouts. I personally take 2 days in between my workouts and have made better gains then with 1 day.

I also am WAY against doing a full body workout each time. There is no way you can workout everybody part properly without running out of gas and training too long. Studies have shown that after 50 mins into a workout, your test production hits a peak and starts to fall dramatically after that. So one hour or a bit more is all you should do per workout.

The BIG KEY to success is 4 things.
1. Consistancy- Stick with it, don't look at lifting like another hobby, look at it like a job.

2. Intensity- Ever see a guy who works out all the time, but still looks like a stick or just the oppisite?? They train with low intensity for too long. They don't challenge themselves with heavier weights. They quit a set when they reach some number like 10, when they still have 2 good reps they could churn out. They sit in the gym doing a full body workout for 2+ hours. You have seen these people, and they always wonder why they don't get bigger.

3., Rest- Remember you don't build muscle while working out, you build it in the rest period between workouts. The pump you get working out makes you feel like you are building muscle right then and there, but thats just blood filling up your muscles. Your body needs a break to repair itself.

4.Proper Nutrition- This is the brick used to build the muscles. You can't build a house without enough bricks and you can't build muscle without enough protein/carbs/fat. You would be suprised how little protein some people take in who workout. Make eating a priority, its just as important as your workout.
 
Hellbore said:
I have actually lifted before but I don't have tons of experience.

There is a question that my friends and I have debated over the years and I don't know who is right. Here it is. 2 things (and remember we are NATURAL lifters, none of us is using gear or anything but protein):

He says a muscle group only needs 48 hours of time to recover. He says it's OK to lift the same muscle group 3 times a week. I always thought it worked better for me to do 1 or 2 times a week. Even if I do 2 times I only like going hard and heavy 1 time a week. Who's right? Does your body need that much time or is it OK to bench every other day?

The second thing is the issue of getting sore. When I lift hard and heavy, I get really sore, not the next day but 2 days after. Then I stay sore until it has been 4 or 5 days. I have been lifting for about 6 weeks now and I still get sore. I always push myself. About 7 years ago I lifted on a regular basis for a year and saw great gains, but I seem to remember getting sore on a regular basis.

However, he says after 2 weeks or so of lifting, your body gets used to it and you don't get sore any more. Is this true? Why am I not used to it, how come I get sore? Is it possible that he's not getting sore simply because he's not pushing himself hard enough? Or is it that I am doing something wrong and that's why I still get sore?

Does soreness tell us anything? I thought it meant your body was rebuilding, getting stronger. Is is really possible to shred the muscle and rebuild it bigger, without getting sore in the process?
Click to expand...

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418597

Take a look here for even more opinions.
 
Micker said:
There is no way in hell you can train a muscle hard 3x a week and not overtrain. A muscle should be trained HARD no more then once per week.
Click to expand...

Just plain wrong bud. As long as the other variables are in proper proportion (intensity and volume) there's no reason why not to hit a muscle 3x week. I've been hitting my legs hard 4x/week and seeing gains.

Micker said:
I also am WAY against doing a full body workout each time. There is no way you can workout everybody part properly without running out of gas and training too long. Studies have shown that after 50 mins into a workout, your test production hits a peak and starts to fall dramatically after that. So one hour or a bit more is all you should do per workout.
Click to expand...
what does test production have to do with it? Sure it drops during the workout but it bounces right back w/ proper PWO offerings (simple carbs).
 
Just plain wrong bud. As long as the other variables are in proper proportion (intensity and volume) there's no reason why not to hit a muscle 3x week.
Click to expand...

Ok, let me rephrase that. No way you won't overtrain a muscle if you work it hard 3 times a week, WITHOUT AAS. Do you use any gear?? When I train legs hard, 2 days later I am still walking funny, no way I could train them that soon. Some people are genetic freaks so to say and can recoup much faster then your avg. person. This guy is new to lifting and he will be hurting for some time to come just training a muscle once a week.
 
No, no gear here. First off I should state that my response to your post sounded a bit harsh. Also, I left out a major component of why it's ok to train hard and frequent w/out overtraining: it's called the fitness/fatigue theory. I HIGHLY recommend you read the article entitled "How to benefit from planned overtraining." You can find it at this site:

www.higher-faster-sports.com

Gold in that article, I'm tellin' you.

BTW I'm no genetic freak. Far from it. At 250 pounds I'm only dl'ing in the mid 400's.
 
if i was you i'd check out the "5x5 single factor routine" - go back and read all the sticky's on the 5x5 routine...i just started lifting seriously a LITTLE over a month ago...and on the routine my stats have increased from old max: 2 reps on bench at 65 lbs (wow...weaksauce) to 5 reps on bench at 105 lbs (i'm not magnus samuelson or anything but it's a big improvement) and i've increased squats from max at 5 reps at 95 lbs to new max at 195 lbs for 3 reps (could do 185 for 5 reps) by this next week will do 195 for 5 reps :) - i think i have increased so much on my legs because my legs have always been nice and long and thick...but nonetheless the routine has helped me increase weight by alot by increasing every week (sometimes 2x a week if i felt super strong thanks to new diet/routine) - for these kinds of improvements you need to change everything though...you need to fix your entire diet and be very strict with your routine...write down everything...your starting weights...your max..# of reps...etc...

can't go wrong - welcome to the site bro - goodluck with whatever routine you decide to take
 
Nice link guinness!!

I agree that controled overtraining is great sometimes. My only problem is that for a person new to lifting, its not good to get into an overtraining routine right from the start. They won't know when to back off/rest and overtraining is not a fun thing to go through.
 
I agree. I was responding specifically to your comments. There's a thread started by Steve the Bluesman that has some good beginner info in it that the original poster may find valuable. Worth looking for...
 
I'll chime in to by saying that you can train muscles 3x per week without AAS and without undue doms. If you are new to lifting then capacity for gym work will be very low. Not only can muscles be worked 3x per week but I think that they should.

If you're new to lifting then you doesn't have the conditioning or work capacity to benefit from split training unless you spend a lot of time working little muscles which would, of course, be pointless for a newbie to do.

When I started and whenever I've come back to the gym from a long layoff I always start again with a full-body 3x per week regimen. Depending on the length of the layoff, I've run this anywhere from one month to three months. I wouldn't put someone onto splits until after their first three months. There's just no point.

Just keep it simple: two sets per exercise at around six reps. After a month or two switch up the reps for some high and low reps, maybe a set at five and another at 9. Keep the rest time between sets and exercises reasonably low to help with conditioning and the whole workout should be made to fit into 45-60 minutes.

I usually placed a little more emphasis on chest and triceps on Monday, legs on Wednesday and back on Friday. I also used to switch up grip for bench. Use the compound movements since they give best bang for the buck. Bench, rowing, OHP, squats. Use DB and barbell variants and you can make the three days sufficiently different that you don't even think about the workouts getting stale.

I've run it for more than a couple of decades and it piles the muscle back onto me just as it piled the muscle on when I started. No drugs required just food and rest. Thankfully I've not needed it for the last two and half years.

You could also take a look at the single-factor version of the madcow 5x5
 
Micker said:
There is no way in hell you can train a muscle hard 3x a week and not overtrain. A muscle should be trained HARD no more then once per week. Now don't listen to the people who are on more drugs then Jimi Hendrix, like the ones you see in the magazines.

It pisses me off when they show the split routine, 6 day a week workouts that these pro freaks do. New people to the sport of bodybuilding/powerlifting read these routines and think they are the way to go. Without drugs, your body just can't rebuild fast enough. Overtraining is VERY real and it can wreck havoc on your body AND mind. Depression, fatigue, weakness, trouble sleeping etc.. Don't go that route. I suffered from overtraining and I really thought I was sick. Once I cut way back working out, everything got much better and my gains started coming back.

If you are new to lifting, I would say 3x a week, for no more then 1 1/2 hour, working different muscles each time is the most you should do. You can do Biceps/Triceps day one, Chest/Shoulders day two, Legs/Back day 3 for instance. Take a day off in between each workout, and 2 days after the 3rd. You can tell if you can do more or less then that, but you will need to fine tune it by the way you feel. If start feeling tired and your gains start DEcreasing, take more time in between workouts. I personally take 2 days in between my workouts and have made better gains then with 1 day.

I also am WAY against doing a full body workout each time. There is no way you can workout everybody part properly without running out of gas and training too long. Studies have shown that after 50 mins into a workout, your test production hits a peak and starts to fall dramatically after that. So one hour or a bit more is all you should do per workout.

The BIG KEY to success is 4 things.
1. Consistancy- Stick with it, don't look at lifting like another hobby, look at it like a job.

2. Intensity- Ever see a guy who works out all the time, but still looks like a stick or just the oppisite?? They train with low intensity for too long. They don't challenge themselves with heavier weights. They quit a set when they reach some number like 10, when they still have 2 good reps they could churn out. They sit in the gym doing a full body workout for 2+ hours. You have seen these people, and they always wonder why they don't get bigger.

3., Rest- Remember you don't build muscle while working out, you build it in the rest period between workouts. The pump you get working out makes you feel like you are building muscle right then and there, but thats just blood filling up your muscles. Your body needs a break to repair itself.

4.Proper Nutrition- This is the brick used to build the muscles. You can't build a house without enough bricks and you can't build muscle without enough protein/carbs/fat. You would be suprised how little protein some people take in who workout. Make eating a priority, its just as important as your workout.
Click to expand...


you are clueless
 
you are clueless
Click to expand...

What is clueless about what I said?? I know my body and I know what works for ME. I know what worked for me when I started and I pass that on to others. I have helped many others start good workout routines and they fine tune them once they learn their bodies. I have yet to see a full body workout(arms/legs/back/tirs/chest etc.) work for anyone. It will get you in shape, but you aren't going to get huge with that. I was replying to a NEW bodybuilder who has no base of muscle, no idea what to expect from his body and no feeling for when he is overtraining. I assume you are clueless or you would have backed up your insult with some facts.

The thing with bodybuilding is that EVERY person responds differently to different routines. I don't think I know 2 people who do the same routine. Another problem is that peoples bodies recover quicker between sets and between workouts. Some people can do a set and start a new set one minute later with little loss in performance, others need 3+mins or they can't perform the next set. Some people can train everyday and be fine, others need a couple days between workouts to avoid overtraining. Some people need to do cardio, others will never see a pound of muscle if they do any cardio. Then of course you have people who use steroids and their workouts should not even be seen by others who try to copy them without the use of AS.
 
AlwaysOn said:
you are clueless

dude, I used to be like you
Click to expand...

If you think someone is wrong, explain yourself. Or are you not smart enough to use your words? Maybe you are just a troll.

Anyway, I just wanted to let y'all know, I have been pleasantly surprised that we HAVE been making progress, even though we have only been lifting 1 time a week, fully body.

My lifting partner and I have been using protein shakes (about 4 scoops a day), creatine monohydrate, and multi-vitamins. I also just started about a week ago using White Blood, BCAA, and ZMA.

So far in the 5 weeks we have been lifting, my 1 rep bench max has gone from 225 (first time we lifted together) to 275 (just yesterday). My partner's max went from 115 to 135.

So we ARE making progress, I just don't know if it is as fast as it should be. I am making faster progress than my partner but he is a skinny type guy while I am pretty thick and I was strong back in high school (7 years ago). He is in high school right now and is 17, lol.

So, I am wondering, if we are making progress now, would we make faster progress if we hit each group 2x a week instead of 1x?
 
Newbies or people fresh off of layoffs will grow and improve from damn near anything. You will almost certainly improve at a faster pace with another workout thrown in.

Could you list your current workout? That would be a helpful tidbit of info :)
 
Last edited:
Today I gave my friend who'd been asking me for a good routine a copy of the beginner 5 x 5. He currently does a pretty typical 1 bodypart/week workout...he's about my height and weighs 160 or so.

For example he has a shoulder day where he does seated behind the neck press, arnold presses, side raises and front raises. And I think he'll do seated db press sometimes too.

So anyway you should've seen his face when he saw squat 3 x week. I know where he's coming from, I had to do a serious about face to break away from the routines you see in the magazines.

So we'll see if he does it or not; I told him to tuck it away and when he feels like he's plateaued or dissatisifed with his current split to give it a try.
 
Micker said:
What is clueless about what I said?? I know my body and I know what works for ME. I know what worked for me when I started and I pass that on to others. I have helped many others start good workout routines and they fine tune them once they learn their bodies. I have yet to see a full body workout(arms/legs/back/tirs/chest etc.) work for anyone. It will get you in shape, but you aren't going to get huge with that. I was replying to a NEW bodybuilder who has no base of muscle, no idea what to expect from his body and no feeling for when he is overtraining. I assume you are clueless or you would have backed up your insult with some facts.

The thing with bodybuilding is that EVERY person responds differently to different routines. I don't think I know 2 people who do the same routine. Another problem is that peoples bodies recover quicker between sets and between workouts. Some people can do a set and start a new set one minute later with little loss in performance, others need 3+mins or they can't perform the next set. Some people can train everyday and be fine, others need a couple days between workouts to avoid overtraining. Some people need to do cardio, others will never see a pound of muscle if they do any cardio. Then of course you have people who use steroids and their workouts should not even be seen by others who try to copy them without the use of AS.
Click to expand...

Read this:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4627437&postcount=133
 
Thanks for the thread link. I know I am at the point that I need to start some advanced routines to make gains. But thats a whole new area, then when you first start out.

Newbies or people fresh off of layoffs will grow and improve from damn near anything.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and thats why the most important thing when starting is learning your body and how to feel the muscles you are using. Getting your body used to the stress of heavy weights. Not overloading it too soon and causing injuries.

BTW, I think that you could easily up your routine to 2x a week by now.
 
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