Perfect Homebrew Recipe/Process?

[genomex]

Hey everyone, this isn’t my first time here at the forum. I’ve actually been here a very long time, but I’m just getting into home brewing, so I felt it was necessary to create a new account and keep all of this away from any of my other info.

I have been researching home brewing for a little over a year now (bought “Underground Anabolics” about 2-3 years ago and memorized everything, but didn’t really play with the thought of doing it myself until not too long ago). I only seriously started researching 2 months. However, I have been investing literally 1-6 hours almost daily these last 2 months to learn as much as possible. I feel this is a massive undertaking and potentially dangerous (not just legally, but also to one’s health), thus I feel it is imperative to learn absolutely everything possible. However, I have read many posts that make it blatant some do not share these feelings (of it being a large undertaking), and in which case, I will understand if some people feel I am a little over the top or too much of a “perfectionist”. It’s almost scary to imagine how unsterile some of the finished products are from what I’ve read… a lot of people don’t even want to filter their home brew with a 0.22 micron filtered because “it takes forever”… That shocks me.

My goal is having the best recipes that allow decent concentrations of anabolics without any pain related to the injection of them (or at least the possible minimum). I feel I have developed 2 great (general) recipes for home brewing regarding this goal. From what I have noticed (from personal use) and learned from my research, is long and short esters are very different. Thus, I feel they should be treated differently and there should be a recipe for each (definitely with Trenbolone Acetate and ESPECIALLY for Testosterone Propionate). Again, these are more general recipes, and I’m sure it would be beneficial to further tweak them for each individual substance as case-to-case situations.


Short Esters:

• 2% BA
• 20% BB
• 5% Guaiacol
• Gear
• Remaining: 40% EO
• Remaining: 45% Safflower Oil
• Remaining: 15% Cottonseed/Grapeseed Oil

Long Esters:

• 2% BA
• 20% BB
• 5% Guaiacol
• Gear
• Remaining: 30% EO
• Remaining: 50% Safflower Oil
• Remaining: 20% Cottonseed/Grapeseed Oil

I have also had the idea of adding in Benzyl Salicylate to further ensure no pain.

My explanation as to how I came to these conclusions are as follows. I have noticed many posts about extremely painful injections (PIP) and have read over many different potential reasons this could occur. The most prevalent reason for the pain when it comes to short esters (especially Test Prop) would appear to be it falls out of the vehicle that carried it, and then crystallized. In some cases, high BA was utilized, but I feel that is somewhat basic and self-explanatory on how to remedy that situation.

I then realized there was a correlation to individuals utilizing the thinnest possible oil (to have the ability to inject from the tiniest of needles possible) to homebrew, while also aiming to hold ridiculously high concentrations of the substance simultaneously.

From my research, I have come to conclude that a thicker oil (in this case, Safflower oil) would be superior in the fact that it will be able to hold and sustain that state of the encapsulated substance far superior than a thin oil. While I feel in some instances this *could* be a solution unto-itself, I feel it’s not a sure shot --- which is what I am after. By this, I feel thicker oils can hold higher concentrations of substances without being forced to utilize “super-solvents”, however there is an obvious limitation to this and to go beyond that would then require such substances.

However, I feel mixing a thick oil with a thinner oil (preferably a 75-80% to 15-20% though) allows close to the same capabilities, while also ensuring ease of injection isn’t too much of a concern.

I have read from many sources that EO can completely (or get extremely close to) removing all pain from injecting the substance. Furthermore, I have read that Guaiacol is a “super-solvent” that also is incredible for removing pain. The two of these seem to have the capability of keeping the substance from crashing and crystallizing (which would appear to be the #1 worst cause of pain with short esters). EO also seems to have the ability to make the finished product very smooth and very easy to inject. There have also been some credible individuals that swear these 2 solvents also would appear to have some sort of analgesic capabilities, though I have no opinion on this myself (yet).

The main concern of utilizing these incredible solvents along with BB is the rubber being broken down by them. For this, it is hardly more expensive to buy special stoppers for vials that won’t be broken down by the solvents. Furthermore, mixing the solvents with oils should also inhibit them from doing such things from the plunger in the syringe – just don’t preload and let it sit too long.

I am not scared of injection pain, but I will do anything to avoid suffering from debilitating pain again. I have had times where I couldn’t even get out of bed for 5 days after injecting into my quad. My significant other and friends literally had to help me just to get to the bathroom.

I will be doing daily injections, and if the pain is far too much, I will either have to give up the injections or not workout… Not working out is obviously unacceptable. It may not be totally out of the realm of possibility to supply a few people in the future. But right now that’s a definitely no.


My items to use for production are as follows:

• Stovetop (though I think I’m just going to buy a hot plate with a magnetic stirrer).
• An oven (sterilization, though I may just buy an autoclave since wet heat is far superior regarding neutralizing bacteria and what not).
• Multiple 1000ML glass Erlenmeyer Flasks.
• Multiple 500ML glass Erlenmeyer Flasks.
• Hand-held vacuum pressure pump.
• Large pack of 0.45 micron PVDF filters
• Large pack of 0.2 micron PVDF filters (I have read from multiple sources there is virtually no difference between the 0.2 and 0.22).
• Sigma-Aldrich vacuum filtration assembly for 47MM filters.
• Anabolic powders.
• Safflower Oil
• EO
• CSO
• BA
• BB
• Guaiacol
• Other general equipment that is obvious

Excuse me for not being precise about the quantities, I feel being precise about what I have isn’t important at all.

I have ready from multiple sources how the disposable filters can cause issues (change colors, the filtration wasn’t acceptable, they cracked, and so on). So I decided to buy a permanent and top-quality filtration unit that simply won’t fail me. Plus, it saves me a ton of money in the long run, and I am certainly going to be doing this for a long. I have attached a picture of the filtration unit.

I have also been considering spending the time to further filter everything with a filter even smaller than 0.22 microns.

My process will be as follows:

1. Completely sterilize where I will be doing all of this. I may or may not have a dedicated clean room.
2. Completely sterilize the equipment. Anything not in sterile wrapping will be stored in cleaning alcohol and (heat will obviously also be utilized). Everything is completely sterilized before, and then remains in the cleaning alcohol until it is taken out to be utilized. (We can get more into this later, but for now it has nothing to do with the goal of this post/thread).
3. I will also be wearing a disposable cloth body suit with a head cover, a facemask, and true sterilized disposable gloves (not the large packs, the individually wrapped ones, otherwise once you open the container they are all no longer sterilized).
4. Do calculations to figure the precise amount required for the quantity I will be handling that day. I had software developed specifically for me, for certain purposes (I may later have unique processes and steps that are not supported with the free calculators available). Plus it was done for free.
5. Each batch will begin with me verifying the melting point to ensure purity is as it should be. Although this slows the process, I feel this is one of the most important processes to ensure I am truly working with what I should be.
6. Cook the EO and oil mixtures at 220F for about 10 minutes to ensure they are homogenous and won’t “fall out”.
7. o They are then cooled before being mixed with the raw substances to ensure there is no risk of it being too hot and causing oxidation to the raw substances.
8. I will place the raw substances into the cooking “pot”, and then mix in the measured other substances.
9. I then heat the substance until it reaches the proper temperature to completely melt. I will either mix by hand, or utilize the hot plate with the magnetic stirring capabilities.
10. o I will be monitoring the entire process to ensure the temperature does not go too far. I have a wireless, portable thermometer with a long range. So if I have to step away for anything, I can continue to monitor the temperature.
11. o As soon as everything is completely mixed, I will immediately turn off the heat and remove the cooking “pot” from the heat source, as I do not want to damage the anabolic via oxidation at all.
12. I then run the substance through the pre-filter (0.45 microns) with the hand-pump. Once completed, the filter is immediately thrown away to ensure it isn’t somehow accidentally used another time.
13. I then setup the filter to use a new flask and top filter area (replace anything that the substance came into contact with at all), so there is no risk of anything that made it through the previous filtration getting into the final container.
14. From here, I handle filling the substance into my vials.
15. o Once filled, the vial immediately has a stopper placed in it and is immediately crimped with a 20MM flip top seal. This is repeated for each vial. They will never just sit around without being sealed.

Note: all of the oils and what not are completely filtered before all of this and stored in sterilized containers.

I am posting this to get everyone’s opinion. If this helps any other individuals, I am seriously happy to have been able to assist you with your goal of home brewing! If you have any thoughts or ideas on how to improve the recipes and/or process, please state them! I have the goal of having the perfect recipe and process of making the best possible home brewed substances. I would also love to get into contact with anyone that is an experience home brewer!

So please, give me your constructive criticism!

And with that, I suppose this is somewhat my introduction... Hopefully I can be a valuable member here.

 

[MaxxReps]

You have certainly put a lot of thought into this. Sounds more like you are wanting to startup a lab rather than just mix up a few vials for personal use. I have been injecting my own gear for about a year now (1 cycle + continuous self HRT), so while no means an expert have a bit of experience. I do it mostly because I had a good source for powder and bought a bunch, and I like to know what I'm taking. I've worked in clean rooms and with cultures before so I get the whole sanitary/sterilization thing. Personally, I find that mixing / cooking in a relatively clean environment and filtering directly into sterile vials through a .22 filter adequate. One years worth of injections and nothing so far - and honestly, if one were to get an infection antibiotics are easy to get.

A couple things I've found so far:

- BA doesn't overly contribute to PIP. I've shot myself with 10% BA solution just to see. A little bit of PIP but not much.
- Not everyone tolerates EO.
- I rigged a ghetto MP apparatus and felt that an MP test can help determine if what you have is completely not what you think it is but I think you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 75% and 99% purity with one.

I also was interested in bottling, sterilizing, and capping my own vials but I am not 100% sure if all the hormones would survive that temp under that pressure. Also, I don't necessarily think that the ester length or 'crashing' relates directly to PIP. I've injected things that I've purposely crashed into crystals in my muscle and had no pip. I think it has more to do with the ester itself, and possibly PH (compounded by concentration). For example, ace is similar to propionate and virtually no PIP.

If you do end up autoclaving your own gear I for one am interested in how you make out.

 

[genomex]

You have certainly put a lot of thought into this. Sounds more like you are wanting to startup a lab rather than just mix up a few vials for personal use. I have been injecting my own gear for about a year now (1 cycle + continuous self HRT), so while no means an expert have a bit of experience. I do it mostly because I had a good source for powder and bought a bunch, and I like to know what I'm taking. I've worked in clean rooms and with cultures before so I get the whole sanitary/sterilization thing. Personally, I find that mixing / cooking in a relatively clean environment and filtering directly into sterile vials through a .22 filter adequate. One years worth of injections and nothing so far - and honestly, if one were to get an infection antibiotics are easy to get.

A couple things I've found so far:

- BA doesn't overly contribute to PIP. I've shot myself with 10% BA solution just to see. A little bit of PIP but not much.
- Not everyone tolerates EO.
- I rigged a ghetto MP apparatus and felt that an MP test can help determine if what you have is completely not what you think it is but I think you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 75% and 99% purity with one.

I also was interested in bottling, sterilizing, and capping my own vials but I am not 100% sure if all the hormones would survive that temp under that pressure. Also, I don't necessarily think that the ester length or 'crashing' relates directly to PIP. I've injected things that I've purposely crashed into crystals in my muscle and had no pip. I think it has more to do with the ester itself, and possibly PH (compounded by concentration). For example, ace is similar to propionate and virtually no PIP.

If you do end up autoclaving your own gear I for one am interested in how you make out.

Actually, I just have a good amount of money and don't really care about how much I end up spending -- so long as the cost is justified. As mentioned, I do not want to supply anyone else. Not even my friends know about this. I feel the less people that know, the less risk I run. However, I would be lying if I said the thought of supplying a few people hadn't crossed my mind. I would already have everything for it, so it wouldn't be a massive undertaking to go from producing personal larger quantities. But again, I feel its not worth it. I don't need the money from selling... So why risk it?

It is good to hear that there is less cause for concern than I previously thought. And while I like the general idea of just using a 0.22 filter, I feel its important to go ahead and pre-filter as well, so the 0.22 filter doesn't clog up so quick and can handle more at once. Though the price for both is essentially the same. I just feel pre-filtering will help the smaller filter go further.

What do you generally sterilize your environment with? I have a few industrial solutions (plus bleach obviously), though I'd like to know if there is something better for the purpose.

Also, I figure the entire clean room bit is a tad over the top, but if its there why not utilize it. I wouldn't do it in a trash bin or bathroom, but the first thing people do when drawing the solution is inject air into the vial... so that seems to defeat the purpose of air quality control via filters and everything. But I also feel (with no backing though) that it can be much worse if bacteria/viruses/spores get into the solution when being created and mixed, rather than after its been filtered and has BA in it and what not.

Thank you for pointing that out about BA... that's excellent to know.

I have certainly read about how some people cannot tolerate EO, but I also feel the benefits for those that can tolerate it are simply worth it. I have used gear that supposedly had EO in it (I wouldn't know how to verify) and it definitely seemed to make a difference.

Yes, a MP test definitely won't be able to tell me a specific % or anything of the sort, but I feel its still important. If the purity is extremely low, I have read about certain methanol treatments to bring it to where its supposed to be (though I'll need to further research this to verify). I want the dosing to be as accurate as I can get it, so while this may not be a huge concern for some others, I feel its very important for my personal reasons and goals.

I won't be autoclaving the actual hormones, as I feel that can cause damage to the hormones. I am going to sterilize before use and ensure they remain so until being utilized. I feel the only time to apply heat is when mixing, and that is the only time. I do not wish to degrade the hormones at all.

Concerning you having substances crash in you purposely... You sir have balls. I have noticed some people can pretty much never get PIP even if they try. Perhaps you are one of those people. Because the cases I have read about the worst PIP suffered by others (debilitating) is general from what I have come to conclude (generally with others) that the hormones crashed from the oil vehicle and crystallized (or muscle damage, which is avoidable by slowly injecting). Maybe you're just one of those extremely lucky individuals that are just un-PIP'able!

The time I posted about having horrible pain for 5 days and requiring assistance just to walk was due to virgin muscle and injecting as fast as possible. I believe it was actually the 2nd time I had ever injected (and it was the TIP of the rectus femoris, right above the kneecap). It was prescribed testosterone, from a pharmacy (Bayer I believe), but I injected as fast as possible... Which probably caused damage to the muscle. But ever since then, so long as I don't go a long time without an injection in the area, and then inject too much/too quick, I rarely get PIP. So long as I inject early in the day and am active, I actually won't hurt at all. I've found it best to work legs some hours after I do a glute injection, actually.

I will be more than happy to keep everyone updated as to how everything turns out with this exact process and the recipes.

However, I was truly hoping I could get some feedback on the recipe and process... Is there anything anyone would suggest? No Substitutions? Does anyone feel I am wrong about anything (other than the BA that was kindly pointed out -- I truly appreciate that bro)? Does everyone concur the EO and Guaiacol (among the carrier oil mixture) will help ensure the hormones won't crash from them? Does anyone think I should utilize Benzyl Salicylate? Anything?

Hopefully through my trials and findings, I can help other home brewers.

 

[MaxxReps]

No, I'm not unpippable. I just think that the things that people think give them PIP really don't, or don't contribute as much as they think they do, as I found out with my BA experiment. I think that certain gear such as test prop, and high concentrations gives pip, period. My first shots of test e crippled me and I believe that was through no fault of my own. And again after shooting that stuff for a few months and running ond and switching to T400 that stuff crippled me again as well.

In terms of clean room, bleach, lysol, and alcohol are my main tools. In the home, without a flowhood its almost impossible to have a truly clean room. If you wanted that I'd look into a glovebox. I have one and if I was going to use the bottle top filter method into pre-sterilized vials that's exactly what I would do (and whats I was thinking of doing).

I have heard of people autoclaving finished bottles though. I was thinking of doing an experiment of autoclaving plain GSO in 10ml vials to see how they make out. Thing is, I found its cheap and easy to just filter into presterilized vials and for personal use that's enough for me. I have no desire to distribute this stuff. Although this is for personal use I have shared a bit of my stash with a good buddy but to be honest I trust my own stuff better than some unknown lab anyway but that's as far as it would go with distribution.

Also, I figure the entire clean room bit is a tad over the top, but if its there why not utilize it. I wouldn't do it in a trash bin or bathroom, but the first thing people do when drawing the solution is inject air into the vial... so that seems to defeat the purpose of air quality control via filters and everything. But I also feel (with no backing though) that it can be much worse if bacteria/viruses/spores get into the solution when being created and mixed, rather than after its been filtered and has BA in it and what not.

Make no mistake - bacteria and spores ARE in the powder and the solvent when mixed up regardless of how clean your room is. The filter eliminates most of that, and the BA is there to stop anything else that gets in from multiplying. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be completely free of bacteria and spores we just want to keep it as low as humanly possible. Even when doing cultures there are contaminants present we just want to keep the number of contaminants so low that the growth of the culture overruns the contaminants. Think of what junkies shoot day after day. Granted they are not IM'ing but they do miss a lot.

I am interested in how you make out with your recipes. I have only used GSO, BB and BA and only with a few test esters and tren so can't really comment there.

 

[genomex]

No, I'm not unpippable. I just think that the things that people think give them PIP really don't, or don't contribute as much as they think they do, as I found out with my BA experiment.

I definitely see what you're getting at concerning the PIP, and I do agree with that statement. If BA was as responsible for PIP as some people thought, then the test you did would have turned out differently. In which case, I'm very happy you informed this of me so I know its not such a massive part of everything.

I think that certain gear such as test testosterone propionate, and high concentrations gives pip, period.

This is more what I'm working towards solving. I believe that is true -- especially when the gear is in a thin carrier oil and it falls out... Though perhaps I'm wrong.

Do you have any other theories as to why this occurs (I'm being serious, not sarcastic)? I know some esters (like Acetate) is actually acidic, thus corrosive and can attack/harm the skin/cells where injected. Though you would think the acetate ester isn't concentrated enough to cause this... Though I suppose this could be a variable as to why some hurt worse than others. Perhaps some are just more poorly made than others, and have too much?

Though I like to think the thicker carrier oils, plus adequate solvents will ensure the gear doesn't crash and cause the pain. I suppose when I start producing for myself, I will find out fairly quick. Hopefully this will turn out to be a solution... I'm sure it will be a great thing for many people to hear. I've met quite a few people that simply can't handle frequent Tren pinning because of the horrible pain they've experienced from it.

There has to be something controllable though... Whether it is what it is suspended in, or the quality of the raw, there are obvious differences from different sources. Some people report gear as hurting like being stabbed with a knife, while saying another brand is a smooth as can be with no PIP. I am determined to figure what it is.

My first shots of testosterone enanthate crippled me and I believe that was through no fault of my own. And again after shooting that stuff for a few months and running ond and switching to T400 that stuff crippled me again as well.

What would you attribute this crippling pain to? I can't tell if you're saying it continued to be painful the entire you took it, or only at the beginning while you were adjusting to it?

In terms of clean room, bleach, lysol, and alcohol are my main tools. In the home, without a flowhood its almost impossible to have a truly clean room. If you wanted that I'd look into a glovebox. I have one and if I was going to use the bottle top filter method into pre-sterilized vials that's exactly what I would do (and whats I was thinking of doing).

Excellent, then I don't need to worry about some sort of industrial power cleaners. I figured bleach plus a few other things would generally handle this. It's just extremely important to make sure there aren't any poorly made surfaces that aren't flat, where bacteria and other nasty things can hide and are hard to get to.

I've looked into pharmaceutical gloveboxes before and I have to admit I've wanted to play around with one. Perhaps some day I will buy one or look into constructing my own. That would actually be an excellent choice for someone doing home production and didn't want to spend a fortune ensuring a clean environment/having to convert a room or however people generally do it at home.

I have heard of people autoclaving finished bottles though. I was thinking of doing an experiment of autoclaving plain GSO in 10ml vials to see how they make out.

I'm not sure if it would do anything to the carrier oils, but I know the heat and pressure will absolutely degrade the hormones. I actually did a little reading on this, because I thought it would be an excellent way to kill any of the bacteria. However, I don't believe its worth murdering the hormones to wipe out what little bacteria is left after the filtration... But if you play around with it and find out that isn't the case, please be sure to tell me!

Thing is, I found its cheap and easy to just filter into presterilized vials and for personal use that's enough for me.

For home production I definitely think this is adequate.

I have no desire to distribute this stuff. Although this is for personal use I have shared a bit of my stash with a good buddy but to be honest I trust my own stuff better than some unknown lab anyway but that's as far as it would go with distribution.

I don't even want to let any of my friends know tbh. I know that may sound greedy or whatever, but its not for that reason. I will gladly help a friend afford his gear or whatever. But I absolutely am not willing to risk the word getting out. What if one of the friends gets drunk and says something about how he has an awesome hookup because a friend makes it? Even a tiny slip of the tongue could lead back. Even something as tiny as someone deducing said friend has access to homebrew because they say they hardly spend any money at all... Its far too much risk. People talk too much when it comes to illegal activities.

Make no mistake - bacteria and spores ARE in the powder and the solvent when mixed up regardless of how clean your room is. The filter eliminates most of that, and the BA is there to stop anything else that gets in from multiplying. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be completely free of bacteria and spores we just want to keep it as low as humanly possible. Even when doing cultures there are contaminants present we just want to keep the number of contaminants so low that the growth of the culture overruns the contaminants.

Oh I'm absolutely aware of this. The 0.22 micron filter will handle the majority, but not all. Just to give an example, the Polio virus is 0.0025 microns, if I remember properly. A bit of an extreme example, but I'm sure you understand where I'm getting at. When I was first learning, I thought BA would completely handle everything... Then I found out it was more to ensure nothing continues to multiply. I must admit I was a little surprised when I found that out. About a year ago, I had thought the BA alone would handle everything remaining after filtration.

I definitely understand there is no way to ensure absolutely no bacteria/spores/viruses/anything unwanted gets into the production, but my goal is to ensure the least amount possible does. As I feel should be the goal of basically anyone... I definitely would hate to ruin my own health over being sloppy and not caring enough to make small changes.

I am interested in how you make out with your recipes. I have only used GSO, BB and BA and only with a few test esters and trenbolone so can't really comment there.

Absolutely bro. I will be more than happy to give you all of my notes and logs as to how everything turns out! I have to admit I'm a little disappointed more people didn't say anything, but I am happy you have told me what you have. Learning absolutely anything towards this is beneficial.

If I was going to post the findings publicly, I would want to see more support for it. I can't say I'd want to go through a lot of trouble to post it for everyone to see, if no one was truly interested or only wanted to know it for financial (reselling) reasons.

 

[MaxxReps]

Do you have any other theories as to why this occurs (I'm being serious, not sarcastic)? I know some esters (like Acetate) is actually acidic, thus corrosive and can attack/harm the skin/cells where injected. Though you would think the acetate ester isn't concentrated enough to cause this... Though I suppose this could be a variable as to why some hurt worse than others. Perhaps some are just more poorly made than others, and have too much?

What would you attribute this crippling pain to? I can't tell if you're saying it continued to be painful the entire you took it, or only at the beginning while you were adjusting to it?

I don't know but it does seem to be worse with different esters. It could be related to PH although from what I understand although esters are derived from carboxylic acids they are close to neutral ph. Some substances just hurt more than others. I remember when I was a kid getting immunizations when getting multiple shots they would give the ones that hurt the least first. Some always burned but the pain faded pretty rapidly. Since hormone esters in oil dissolve slowly they hang around much longer.

I always get PIP its just worse at the beginning. I can usually tell where I've taken the shot the next day, even though it is very mild. With the T400 it was always more painful than the test cyp I was taking prior. I attribute it to the inclusion of test prop and the higher concentration.

I've looked into pharmaceutical gloveboxes before and I have to admit I've wanted to play around with one. Perhaps some day I will buy one or look into constructing my own. That would actually be an excellent choice for someone doing home production and didn't want to spend a fortune ensuring a clean environment/having to convert a room or however people generally do it at home.

A pharmaceutical glove box is absolutely not necessary. I made a glovebox out of a cardboard box and successfully poured agar plates in it. There's also the issue of having all this professional lab and bio equipment around if the po po were to ever show up.

If I was going to post the findings publicly, I would want to see more support for it. I can't say I'd want to go through a lot of trouble to post it for everyone to see, if no one was truly interested or only wanted to know it for financial (reselling) reasons.

I too was hoping to get some interest going but I think that most who are into it more than the raws -> grocery store oil -> filter into pre sterilized vials are looking to distribute and have a financial incentive not to share information.

BTW as for the degradation of the hormones in heat, I am interested in where you found the information if you would care to share.

 

[genomex]

I don't know but it does seem to be worse with different esters. It could be related to PH although from what I understand although esters are derived from carboxylic acids they are close to neutral ph. Some substances just hurt more than others. I remember when I was a kid getting immunizations when getting multiple shots they would give the ones that hurt the least first. Some always burned but the pain faded pretty rapidly. Since hormone esters in oil dissolve slowly they hang around much longer.

I definitely see where you are getting at. Hopefully though some experimentation we can come to some conclusion as to why this happens though. It would definitely be an excellent finding. I sincerely hope its the solution crashing from too thin of oils/depots though... It seems like it would be a far easier fix than shitty production lol. I've just read from many reputable people that if the carrier is too thin, the hormones will leak out of it and pool in other areas (then crystallize, from what I understand, though crystallization seems to only be a concern with the hormones with high boiling points). But again, I'm only going off the words of others. I will soon find out for myself though.

And yeah... I recently had to get another tetanus shot from getting a rusty nail stabbed in it. Was nagging for a few days lol.

I always get PIP its just worse at the beginning. I can usually tell where I've taken the shot the next day, even though it is very mild. With the T400 it was always more painful than the test cyp I was taking prior. I attribute it to the inclusion of test prop and the higher concentration.

How do you generally do the injections? And would you say its from the muscle not being injected in for a while? Because I have definitely noticed this.

I have read its best to not inject while a muscle is still sore after a workout (not entirely sure why though). I always massage a bit before, and them massage afterwards through the day. I have noticed a huge difference with that. Plus just being active afterwards is a lot of help. I have noticed if I do a late night injection and fall asleep, I feel it far more the following day. So I generally do the injection, massage it (sometimes use a heating pad if I think its going to nag some), wait a few hours, then workout the muscle I injected. Sometimes I shower immediately before (I like being as clean as possible, even though I wipe the site before -- I feel it can make a difference) and other times I shower afterwards. Though I can't exactly comment on which one has made the largest difference.

I feel working out the muscle afterwards is one of the biggest factors in preventing the pain/nagging soreness the following days, as I'm sure it helps it spread out more in the muscles.

I know this may sound like a lot to put into avoiding PIP and soreness, but honestly its just how my day plays out (minus the few minutes of pre-massage and sometimes the heating pad for a few minutes). Plus massaging the injection site afterwards feels good to me lol.

A pharmaceutical glove box is absolutely not necessary. I made a glovebox out of a cardboard box and successfully poured agar plates in it. There's also the issue of having all this professional lab and bio equipment around if the po po were to ever show up.

Hahahaha! The cardboard glove box gave me a good laugh. I agree its not necessary (and I'm sure many many people think me discussing playing with one is far over the top). Though I feel the isolator (glove box) can be of massive help to people who don't have the larger sterile room, and still want to control the bacteria exposure and all. I actually want to discuss some of the design plans I have later, they're cheap and will work wonderful.

I have even read about people converting those clear plastic bins into isolators... They don't have to be expensive. Hell, they have "Rapid Field Containment Kits" that are basically plastic wrap with some cheap tent rods to keep it up in a dome fashion, with the glove inserts and 2 HEPA filters (which each can be made for around $50-100)... Probably costs $20 to manufacture on a large scale but they sell them for several grand lol. One could even make their own isolator out of freaking PVC (many of the clear pharmaceutical ones are made of PVC or some other high quality plastic like Polypropylene, which still isn't expensive)!

Actually the equipment itself isn't illegal at all. And if the isolator was home-made, it could easily be disguised or hidden to make the police think its nothing more than a clothes hamper or something lol.

I too was hoping to get some interest going but I think that most who are into it more than the raws -> grocery store oil -> filter into pre sterilized vials are looking to distribute and have a financial incentive not to share information.

Yeah... That is what I've come to the conclusion of. I was hoping there would be more people really hoping to learn and contribute, but earlier I was re-reading a lot of threads and noticed its a lot of the same re-regurgitated data over and over, with maybe a useful nugget of unique info here and there. I have a feeling quite a few people are going to take what was posted here and try it, or modify it and try it. And of course we probably won't be told about it. Hell, we may even hear about some new "SUPER SMOOTH LINE" coming out from some sources hahahaha. But in all honesty, if it helps people tolerate the gear better, then why not. We're all in it together, so the better quality for others the better for the game. Though many people seem to think the exact opposite and want to hoard everything to themselves !

I'm going to try a few things to pull a larger crowd to this thread though. Maybe something will work. Hell, even a discussion between 4-6 knowledgeable individuals would make this an incredible thread. But honestly, I feel just between you and I, we have already provided a lot more information than found in many other threads.

BTW as for the degradation of the hormones in heat, I am interested in where you found the information if you would care to share.

Sure bro. The first place I read it was in William Llewellyn's "Underground Anabolics", but I have read it in several other sources at all. Apparently the hormones are very susceptible to damage via oxidation when they get too hot (a bit above their melting point, though I'm not too sure where exactly they begin to degrade). This is why I said the only time I will ever heat my gear is when its being melted into everything else, and as soon as its all melted I will immediately take it from the heat source and leave it be (even if that means longer filtering time... oh noes!).

Here are some threads where it is discussed. See if you can find a ebook of "Underground Anabolics" though, he even gets access to a "high quality" underground operation and takes pictures and explains the processes! Though... I honestly became a little concerned about the quality of gear sold when this book boasted about how incredible high quality this operation was and everything. If the one in the book is high quality, I can't even imagine "decent quality"... Anyways, here are some of the links:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/b.../dont-bake-steroids-250-degrees-f-129571.html

The following quote:

Overheating definately is an oxidizing agent for hormones! Too much heat or prolonged heat will in fact begin to destroy hormones. Qustion is, how much and how long??? I've had the best success with MOST hormones at about 95 degree C for long enough that your powders dissolve in your BB an BA or just all your wets together!!! Once clear with no swirls then pull off the heat and continue stirring as it cools to about 65-80 degree or so for filtering!!!
I think baking is pointless and does degrade some weaker hormones and just any of the hormones in general!!! Not by much I'm sure but say 160 degree C for more than 2-3 min I believe you are degrading your hormone at that point!!!

Is from the thread:

http://www..com/forum/chemical-study/618102-overheating-degrades-hormone-potency.html

There are a few others that I will need to dig for. I will look for them and PM you them later. While I haven't looked explicitly for the exact scientific study to back these notions, I seem to lean towards it being true on the grounds of common sense... Anything will begin to degrade and become damaged when getting too hot. And hormones absolutely seem very fragile.

With the lack of any study concerning steroids and things of the nature, I feel it would be hard pressed to find anything truly relevant to it. The only way we could really figure it out is do a study, then send it to a lab to somehow be analyzed and see if there is degradation between the one that went far above the melting point and sat at that heat for a while, versus the one that was immediately cooled and cut off when it was all melted.

 

[MaxxReps]

I don't have any funky injection method. I am on full time, twice a week test cyp, and often forget so am doing it at the last minute or on the run. Quick clean up with alcohol and inject deep into the muscle with a 25g 1.5" needle. My gear is GSO based so its thick and it takes about 15 seconds or so to inject the .4ml. I do notice that if I haven't injected a site for a while I get more PIP there. I don't notice a real different if I've worked out that muscle that day. I try not to inject into a muscle that I'll be working out the next day. But my gear is relatively PIP free with GSO, 20% BB, and 2% BA.

The more I think about it the more I agree that heat sterilizing filled vials is probably not the way to go, even though I've read here and elsewhere that people do it. Perhaps that is one reason we have gear out there that is severely under dosed. Pharmaceutical companies sterilize their heat sensitive liquid drugs via filtration. They typically sterilize their equipment and vessels using gamma radiation though, and not via autoclave. I think it would be a challenge to sterilize vials, lids, and crimpers - and transfer to sterile environment (glovebox or hood) and pour and seal vials with the same sterility of filtering directly into sterile vials.

 

[genomex]

I don't have any funky injection method. I am on full time, twice a week test cyp, and often forget so am doing it at the last minute or on the run. Quick clean up with alcohol and inject deep into the muscle with a 25g 1.5" needle. My gear is GSO based so its thick and it takes about 15 seconds or so to inject the .4ml. I do notice that if I haven't injected a site for a while I get more PIP there. I don't notice a real different if I've worked out that muscle that day. I try not to inject into a muscle that I'll be working out the next day. But my gear is relatively PIP free with GSO, 20% BB, and 2% BA.

Yeah I will definitely have a lot to play with to sort out which will be best for me. A ton of people vouch for GSO.

Yeah I'm on HRT as well, so I generally just do a 200MG injection every Monday of Test Cyp. But I have noticed a lot of people do better with 2 injections, broken up through the week.

Also, a 1.5"? Damn, everyone I know does fine with the 1" and that's generally all they need.

The more I think about it the more I agree that heat sterilizing filled vials is probably not the way to go, even though I've read here and elsewhere that people do it. Perhaps that is one reason we have gear out there that is severely under dosed. Pharmaceutical companies sterilize their heat sensitive liquid drugs via filtration. They typically sterilize their equipment and vessels using gamma radiation though, and not via autoclave. I think it would be a challenge to sterilize vials, lids, and crimpers - and transfer to sterile environment (glovebox or hood) and pour and seal vials with the same sterility of filtering directly into sterile vials.

Yeah I've had some people say they keep temps no higher than 150 degrees. Interestingly, it would appear that the darker the Tren colors... the hotter the cooking was when it was being mixed/cooked!

And this very well could be why some solutions are very under-dosed... Or the makers are cheap assholes lol. But I could definitely seeing that being a reason. If someone wants to be a trusted source and they think it will help with quality control and unknowingly reduce the efficiency of the solutions.

But if everything is handled in a controlled fashion and its filtered in a decently sterile environment, then I feel there shouldn't be a need to apply any heat after the mixing.

I'm so jealous of everything pharma companies have to keep everything sterile and controlled lol. I've read about USP oil containers being irradiated to ensure they're sterile before being filled with the oils as well. I wonder if that's true.

As for moving the sterilized equipment, I've read about pharma's using glass boxes that are airtight to keep the newly sterilized equipment in a sterile environment, if having to move through non-sterile conditions. Using glass containers that are are well made and don't have any rough edges are the easiest to keep sterilized and are less of a concern apparently.

Though I have a feeling they keep everything wrapped in a way that doesn't allow contamination, and keep them so until the moment they are to be used.



Also, I want your opinion on something. A lot of people have been talking up MCT's as the carrier oils, and have been saying that it can even handle higher concentrations that most other oils without so many solvents (not that I care about the higher concentrations, rather the fact that it can hold them without crashing -- APPARENTLY). However, the drawback seems to be its only possible to sterilize through a 0.45 micron filter. While the oil interests me, I can't help but feel if it can't be filtered due to the congealing of the MCT's, then its too risky.

There is a reason the 0.22 micron filter is the standard for filtration of any solution to be injected in our bodies... And I can't help but feel even if its some wonderful carrier oil, its not worth the risk of not being able to filter it!

However, I'm thinking perhaps it would be best to use a combination of 2 oils, maybe CSO and MCT's (85-15 to 75-25 combo), and mix the gear with the CSO and filter it, then warm up the MCT's and filter it small amount at a time to ensure it doesn't congeal and block the filter. Once filtered, put the two together.

However, I also have my concerns since MCT's are utilized in Sythol... I have read some people say it can make areas lumpy since it takes a long time to break down. However, I can't seem to find anything that specifies how long it takes to do so.

Some people say it can potentially slow the absorption rate of the gear, but I personally doubt that since its the ester that dictates the release rate. However, I do believe that its possible the MCT's remain at the site for a while after the gear has been fully absorbed. If it really does absorb so slow, then it would definitely be an awesome candidate to ensure the contained gear doesn't crash out and crystallize (IF that is the cause of it).

I wish I could find something that could let us know the time each oil took to do so. That would be great.