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Older cycles....older results

BigPapaPump

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Ok, maybe some of you new guys can help me with this.

I'm an old school type of guy. I read through these posts and I'm amazed at some of the cycles people are doing today.

I've been training and using basically the same stuff for the last 17 -18 yrs. My basic cycle's are geared around test and dbol with an occassional deca and A bombs.....period the end.

Can any old school guy tell me if they are seeing better results by tossing in all the fina, eq, slin, insulin,....etc ? Or is more so that the new lifters are not putting forth the same effort to get the results and are relying on using all this gear ? Could this by why there are so many more bad side effects than I've ever experienced ?

I mean, I'm a big block chevy type of guy, give me that old 427 with a blower and a pair of holley's on top. You can keep your all aluminum small block with the fuel injection and twin turbo's. I'll get down the track just as fast.

ANy of this make sense to anyone other than me ?

BPP
 
BPP...

I am a Test/Dbol man myself, I havent been training as long as you, but about 10 years...I am more of a bread and butter type of guy, the basics do just fine for me, no need to inject a gram of test a day to see great results, to be honest with you, i dont think i will ever go over 750mg .....and thats the most i will ever do, and i dont plan that til my next cycle....i agree that most of the people...seems more like kids tho, nowadays are relying to much on gear to compensate for poor work ethic and shitty diet and most importantly undereducated decisions ....i have heard nothing but good things about tren/fina and plan to start in 3 weeks, im currently on test 500mg 4 weeks, then tren 75mg/day with test 250mg/wk (just to keep my sex drive)...

if u want PM me your email and ill tell u my progress since i dont see as my progress warrants a whole thread
 
I'm old school... I've been experimenting with high dose for a few years. I'm not impressed with fina at all.

Results? I don't see better results on 600-800mg EQ over what I used to see on 150-300mg EQ.

With deca, anything after 300mg a week seems a waste.

Test is the one I'm not sure about. I'm getting incredible results the last many months... but I've done high dose test before (to me 1500-2000mg a week is high dose.)

I think more than anything... I'm better learning to optimize results... the doseage isn't as important as the knowledge.
 
I think Test/Anavar cycle would surprise you. Slin is useless for most users unless you shot 30 ius or so a day which is extremely dangerous.

Also, one more thing to consider is how underdosed gear is these days.
 
I'm not getting into dosages with this comment. I'm more concerend in just the shear amount of different compounds people are using.

:)
 
Basic

Test/Dbol/ experimenting with tren

so far i found test/dbol work together well like an old married couple..lol
 
BigPapaPump said:
I'm not getting into dosages with this comment. I'm more concerend in just the shear amount of different compounds people are using.

:)

That's easy... deca... d-bol... test... EQ... no need for anything else. Fancy substances usually don't do jack compared to the "Big 4."

I'd add primo to the list but it is so rare you see it anymore.
 
I pretty much just use test and dbol. If I feel like shooting a lot, I use fina. I like high doses though. I also like to eat lots of "food." I find that "food" makes a great addition to any cycle.
 
slobberknocker said:
I find that "food" makes a great addition to any cycle.

Amen. 9 times out of 10 over the last 20 years when I've heard guys complaining that their juice was fake or underdosed... they simply weren't eating enough. Protein has done more for me than d-bol.
 
bumpo said:



Andy whats your experience with this combo, I'm thinking of running this for my fourth cycle.

Just my alltime favorite stack

Prop: 150mg-200 EOD for 6 weeks.

Anavar: 50mg ED for 8 weeks.

Liquidex: 0.5mg ED

T3: 12.5mcg ED for 8 weeks.

You keep all your gains, the strength gains are great and it's a fast and effective cycle.
 
i'm a young guy, and a novice when it comes to juice.. i've been liftin hard for about 6 years now and the past 2 i have focused more on b.b than powerliftin which i did for football.. i'm 21yo and have 2 cycles under my belt... from what i've read and my beliefs.. i feel that good work ethic and diet are everything... and 2 or 3 cycles a year of a combination of fina, test, eq, or deca is all that u need... its all about hard work
 
I am still a newbie to AS, but a vet at lifting. Natural I was 5'9" 220. I have gotten great results from Test/Deca. I feel great!
Test rules in my book.
 
Dial_tone said:
Alright, finally the Old Schoolers are coming out of the woodwork. I was beginning to think I was the only one. These young bucks today are stacking 4-6 things with only 6 months to a year of training and wondering why they can't keep any size after a cycle. Give me two cycles of Test/Dbol/clomid and at the end of a year I'll net as much size as they do and have an extra $1,000 in my pocket to treat their gf to a weekend in Vegas. LOL.

AMEN DIAL TONE !

BPP
 
I am in my mid thirties and keep my cycles simple.....I just can't imagine stacking 6 drugs in one cycle...to me its unhealthy and a waste of cash.....
 
New school boy! The more the better, you aint lived until you've felt the magic of over 2000mg a week!!!
Bull shit rose coloured glasses, looking back gets you no-where.
Even the old school dudes are learning a trick or two from todays experts
Where would the pros be without the breakthroughs of the last 10yrs, theyd still look like Arnie, no disrespect but thats well out of date
Bro
 
Again, I'm not complaining about doses...I'm all for 1000 + mg's of test a week. I just do not see the need to add a million other compounds with it.

BPP
 
BigPapaPump said:
Again, I'm not complaining about doses...I'm all for 1000 + mg's of test a week. I just do not see the need to add a million other compounds with it.

BPP
AMEN TO THAT!!!






RADAR
 
hey im young at age, but id say im a little bit old school.
gotta love that old rock & roll, and you cant beat an alcohol blown 540 Merlin twin-dominator big block at all.

im not too experienced at the AAS game either (3 cycles), but test will always be the basis of any cycle i do

and all ive done is test,fina, dbol. next cycle may be test, fina, and winstrol though.
 
just test :) 250 - 500 mg a week :)

I have done previous cycles with WAY more and didn't notice that big of a difference, but I train alot harder now. If i stop growing off that, I'll throw in some Deca or dbol.
 
Just to set the record stright, Primo, Deca and Winstrol have been around for 40 years.

Take a look at the "new" stuff: GH is junk. DNP is for fools. And of course, Clomid blows.

Secondly, all steroids are based on the testosterone molecule so it's ridiculous to mix 4 or 5 compounds that are essentially the same thing. People have been ignoring, forgotton, or are simply unfamiliar with the anabolic/androgenic ratios in devising a stack.

As Sofa already stated, it isn't so much what you use, but how you use it. And in that regard, most people do not utilize steroids to the best advantage.
 
GH junk? Clomid blows? Please clarify bro, because I've seen some pretty amazing transformations (fat loss that is) with GH. And if clomid blows what do you suggest for post cycle? I know HCG+nolv isn't a bad way to go on more suppressive cycles, but saying clomid blows seems a little extreme.....
 
To answer the original question......I have tried about everything out there over the last 25 years, but when I want to be damn sure to get predictable results I always come back to the same stack. Test/deca/dbol.
If you have been at this for 18 years, BPP, then you are no kid either. For this old man, GH has been an extremely effective addition to my anti-aging arsenal. Somewhere in my forty's, it became near impossible for me to stay big and lean at the same time. GH changed this for me. I don't think I've ever been better!

Yes, McBane, Nelson is extreme. Extreme sells books....more power to him.
 
I agree on the "Clomid blows" bit. I've never broken out so bad before in my life! I still have plenty of clomid that I don't think I'll ever use again. And, I'm 30...not 18, and I don't have an acne problem, never did. I broke out all over my shoulders and upper back with clomid. I guess I'll try nolva as a gainskeeper and natural test jumpstart next time.
 
I understand that ironmaster that he is extreme but I just think that he should make it clear that his advice is extreme, I mean he's got quite a following here and I must say there are some things he states as facts that are very very questionable. I think these boards should be used as places to get facts across....not comprimise people's cycles by trying to sell books.
ceo said:
I agree on the "Clomid blows" bit. I've never broken out so bad before in my life! I still have plenty of clomid that I don't think I'll ever use again. And, I'm 30...not 18, and I don't have an acne problem, never did. I broke out all over my shoulders and upper back with clomid. I guess I'll try nolva as a gainskeeper and natural test jumpstart next time.
Bro you have to realize the acne is prob from the hormone crash after the cycle, not the clomid. Too many people fail to realize this. When you have large fluctuations in hormone levels acne can result, it just so happens that you are taking clomid at the time to try to stimulate LH, FSH and testosterone production in an attempt to return to homeostasis. Go use nolvadex and I am willing to bet you still get acne post cycle because of the reasons I just listed.
 
Nothing I say is compromised in order to sell books. But I will not compromise in order to make more people happy. I say what I believe and I believe what I say and it's always based on real world evidence.

I have addressed the issue of Clomid and GH, in depth, several times on this board.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Nothing I say is compromised in order to sell books. But I will not compromise in order to make more people happy. I say what I believe and I believe what I say and it's always based on real world evidence.

I have addressed the issue of Clomid and GH, in depth, several times on this board.
Bro, no offense but that is sort of impossible. I mean if you are selling something, you are partial to it, whether it be consciously or unconsciously. That's just human nature.

In terms of clomid, I've seen you state before that you think that clomid does nothing for post cycle and it seemed as if you were saying there is no need for post cycle meds..well I am curious because it has been proven that clomid does raise LH and FSH levels which aids in recovery..so I fail to see how it "blows"
 
Just to back up my above statement that clomid is useful post cycle. Although I must admit I did not find these refs on my own, came from good old Dr. Evil :D

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.


__________________
 
Another
Fertil Steril 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5 Related Articles, Links


Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Programs in Geriatrics and Andrology, Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas, USA

To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.Case report.University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.A 30-year-old male.Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.
 
Thirtysomething...

I remember my first cycle. Laurabolin and T-200 w/ 16g vet pins. Years ago. I have tried mixing and matching and adding compounds, to the point I was taking 4-5 AAS for my yearly bulking cycle. I have to agree w/most on here, after 10+ years of cycling. It's about the basics. Just like any sport, if you don't get the basics, you can't play the sport, (not very well, anyway). My basics are this TEST!! D-bol, Deca. I've never done drol (not that I didn't have the chance, and still might give it a go?) so I can't comment, but for as long as it's been around I should probably include it.
 
McBane......I'm not endorsing extremism at all. I don't post any statement unless I can back it up through science or personal experience.
I don't use anti-e's, so I won't comment there, but I flat disagree with NM regarding GH and insulin. I am meticulous in my training and have kept pictures over the years that illustrate the effects of different supplements on my physique. My pics while using GH and insulin are like night and day different than without, while maintaining the same diet and excercise routine.....and with the EXACT same steroid stack. I have posted some of these before.
I am an old guy, and my natural hormone prouction is considerably less than trainer in his 20's, so that fact has to be considered as well.
 
I'm in my mid 40's and have been at this for the past 20 years. I agree with the others that test/dbol is the way to go.
 
Here we go with the nelson bashing again. I would love to know what is good for post cycle recovery though.
 
Absolute bullshit. Saying GH and Slin are crap.
Yeah good luck to ya mate, try and change everybodynuilders mind that GH isnt any good, and you tell em to just take test and d-bol.
And you say primo decca and winny have been here for 40yrs?
Exactly, just proves that todays physiques are based on alot more pharacuticals than simple old test, decca and primo.
Wake up guys, you only need to look at the 2002 Mr O compared to the 1980 to see the difference the new drugs make.
Bro
 
Stick with the original thread, please, not another 4 page clomid debate! Do your research guys, clomid is recommended more often than anything else for post cycle recovery. Nelson has a very long thread on his views that oppose these issues.
 
My goal is to inform -- the changing of one's mind is up to the individual. Everyone has the right to remain ignorant.

The reason for todays champs being do much bigger:

People in general are bigger.

Bigger people are attracted to bodybuilding whereas in the past, it was mostly the little" guy who lifted weights in order to compensate.

Drug dosages have quadrupled.

Guys stay on year round.

Guys can eat 1000's more calories because they can lose fat with more drugs.

GH and insulin may increase size. They'll also cause diabetes, tendontitus, and dissended stomachs. But hey, you do get a groovy plastic trophy for your efforts! Wait a minute. I think only about 2 or 3 guys on this board actually compete. So explain to me again why Gh and insulin are so great?
 
Fuckin hell, you really aint got a clue have you. Ive seen GH and slin add over 50lbs lean mass to people i know, something that more gear, or higher doses could not do. Gh for dieting is one powerful tool, exte=remely anti cataboilic, and one of the best fat loss aids that drug market has seen.

And if you think todays pros are bigger because in general people are bigger then you really are ignorant. Your reasons are fuckin insults to anyone and everyone in the sport.

And if it is your goal to inform, then inform the correct information, dont tell everyone a load a shit.
Bro
 
GH is the best fat loss aids on the market? Whatever you say bro.

I do find it humorous when I site several reasons for something and someone shoots back with a strong retaliation to ONE of them. Unbelievable.

I've also spoken to dozens, maybe hundreds, of pro bodybuilders in depth. I have their phone #'s in my book. How many do you chum around with? It must be plenty since you seem to have the inside scoop on what they do.

I'll bet High Intensity will lose more fat riding that bike he's gonna buy than he would from a course of GH.



.





Don't even think about asking for anyone's number.
 
I know enough semi pro amateurs, and have contact to a couple of pros if need be. I work for one of the UK's biggest supplement companies and we sponsor a number of world class athlete and yes, I do 'chum around with them'.

But face it your reasons were bullshit. Arnie trained hard and took what he could, but didnt look anything special. However apply todays knowledge to his physique and you'll have a different person altogether.

Stick to your old time bullshit, think the reason for todays bodybuilders being 300lbs is because "people are bigger in general", "drug doses have quadrupled" and "people stay on all year round". Yeah im sure they add 50lbs muscle to anyones physique. Stay away from GH, Slin, DNP, Whey protein etc because they dont work, all you need is test and d-bol, like the good old days.
Times over old man, its time for the new and improved.
Bro
 
Arnold didn't look anything special?

Yeah, if only he had more slin -- maybe he would have made something of himself.
 
Some interesting points made.

Comment: Nelson, sometimes I think you don't make any sense and then sometimes you do.:confused: Your ideas sure stir up some debate though which, is good.
 
It seems like everthing is always discredited by someone. Really i never know what to believe anymore. Now insulin doesnt do shit! Clomids dont work. WTF. Anymore i say fuck it man. There are alot of smart bros on here. ALOT. But seriously, anymore, i dont give a fuck about the science behind juice. Id rather ask a couple dudes what worked for them and give it a whirl. Ill be my own ginny pig. someone will always be there to tell you this or that sucks. Nelson you a smart mofo but u cant believe everything you hear. Pros arent going to give their secrets out to be put in a book. Id much rather take advice from a bro on here thats been their done that in the gym. Than one thats heard how to get big on the phone.
 
My god this topic sure hit a nerve with some.

Here's my take on some of the comments.

I will exclude any thing good or bad about gh, I have tried it but sadly I am one of the 1 in a 1,000,000 that has a bad reaction to it.

I think clomid is crap, but do not wish to debate the anti e's.

I agree that body building is more main stream today, years ago you would have been called a freak if you openly displayed yourself in such a manner.

I think athletes are in much better condition today than say 20 yrs ago, is it the gear, the training equip, diet, easier lifestyles ? Don't know.

I guess that leads back to my original question then.

BPP
 
Nelson Montana said:
My goal is to inform -- the changing of one's mind is up to the individual. Everyone has the right to remain ignorant.
What about the clomid studies I just posted bro? I mean if you want to inform people that's fine....I respect that...that's what we are all trying to do here. However if you are making statements you should be able to back them up. Your comments about clomid being crap and post cycle drugs not neccessary (except maybe proviron and HCG which both are suppressive of HTPA) seems like it endangers the health of the members. So basically all I am asking is you back up your theory about post cycle meds....not by saying I talked to a pro and he told me....or that you believe it...but with facts. I don't wish to sound like an asshole, but no matter who you know, or how friendly you are with them, I still want to see some facts to back up your statement. Keep in mind all these statements are in regards to your post cycle theories....I'll leave the GH & slin debate alone
 
McBane said:
Bro you have to realize the acne is prob from the hormone crash after the cycle, not the clomid. Too many people fail to realize this. When you have large fluctuations in hormone levels acne can result, it just so happens that you are taking clomid at the time to try to stimulate LH, FSH and testosterone production in an attempt to return to homeostasis. Go use nolvadex and I am willing to bet you still get acne post cycle because of the reasons I just listed.

Um...ok, even though I've NOT used clomid after cycles and NOT broken out. I'm not the only one who has experienced this with clomid either. Maybe I'm part of a minority who reacts aversely to clomid...who knows. I'm just saying what I know about me based on my own "clinical" research. Besides, I've read studies which support the arguement of why nolvadex would be a better post cycle therapy than clomid, so I'll stick to that. The nolva seems to work for me and I dont break out from it. It's cheaper too.
 
brotheriron said:
Arnie trained hard and took what he could, but didnt look anything special.

However apply todays knowledge to his physique and you'll have a different person altogether.

Times over old man, its time for the new and improved.
Bro

Yes, poor, poor Arnold! Whatever happened to him anyway? He was a good guy, but just nothing special...too bad he never really made anything of himself. Probably lost his motivation...lacked dedication.

I'm glad Arnold wasn't freakish. I MUCH prefer his physique over today's pros. Give me the days of old over the "new and improved" anyday.

I'm sure that brotheriron looks MUCH better than Arnold ever did.
 
My point was that arnie wouldnt win an amateur comp today, never mind a pro.
Yeah, and come september i will be competing at around arnie's weight, but im only 5'9, and ive got legs.
If you want arnies body go and train arms and chest.

Bro
 
I'd like to put this thread to rest too but I'd still like to hear from Nelson as his clomid claim was a bit extreme so I'd like to hear his response.
 
People have to just find what works for you. EVERYBODY IS DIFFERENT. If I asked for advice about my next cycle on here, I would get so many different ideas that I would be more confused as to what to try. You have to find out yourself, you have to experiment and go from there.
 
I've addressed the clomid issue ad-infintum.

Let's just say, it doesn't work for everybody, has negative side effects on many others and works against your goals.
 
Raising of LH, FSH, and testosterone levels are against our goals? Seems to me like the only negative sides that are claimed (and a couple I question) are moodiness, acne, and vision probs [which go away upon discontinuation of the clomid]. None of these are big deals really. And the acne and moodiness MOST get post cycle anyways because "crash" in hormones.
 
Let's not forget increases in LDL, decreased libido (in some) depression, slower gains by inhibiting estro (if taken during cycle) lessened ejaculate and increased SHBG.

And once you go off, you drop right back down to where you were except that you'd be more suppressed because you've been relying on exogenous stimulation longer.

Clomid will not raise T in many people.

There's more, but you get the idea. (or maybe you don't.)
 
I was speaking strictly about post cycle. The decreased libido and depression you speak of is related to coming off a cycle anyways, I have not seen any evidence at ALL that links the depression or decreased libido to clomid.

None of the other sides you mentioned are significant. Although there have been some studies linking nolvadex and clomid to increase in LDL, it doesn't seem to be very significant, as if you read the info on clomid on pharmacy websites it makes no mention of avoiding clomid if you have cholesterol problems or heart problems.

Please show a study that shows that you "drop right back down to where you were except that you'd be more suppressed because you've been relying on exogenous stimulation longer." I've thrown up some studies showing increases in testosterone production, FSH, and LH.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Let's not forget increases in LDL, decreased libido (in some) depression, slower gains by inhibiting estro (if taken during cycle) lessened ejaculate and increased SHBG.

And once you go off, you drop right back down to where you were except that you'd be more suppressed because you've been relying on exogenous stimulation longer.

Clomid will not raise T in many people.

There's more, but you get the idea. (or maybe you don't.)

Chances are they dont
 
To put my info on the ORIGINAL topic of this thread, I've tried some of the newer things... and I've found that FOR ME, test is what works.

I get more consistent gains, I stay leaner, feel better and stronger, and I don't have a hard time keeping what I gain. I'm 26 years old, and though I'm not where I want to be... I'll keep running test, throwing in d-bol and anadrol here and there... and I'll strive to look like that one Schwarvenyeater guy.

Now as far as ol' what's-his-name... Arnold Brownshwagger or whatever that "old timer's" name was... maybe I'm stupid... but I think he has the greatest physique of all time. So his legs didn't look like he was walking around on two skinned buffalo or anything... but I think legs THAT big suck anyway. (my opinion)

I know he wasn't great... it's not like he put bodybuilding on the map or anything.

When I turn 50, I'd like to at least SOMEWHAT look like what I did when I was 27. I don't wanna lose 200 lbs when either I shit my liver out, or my body just can't handle it so I have to come off all the compounds, and lose everything I've gained.

To each their own, I suppose.
 
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