NYC opens first public high school for Gays and Lesbians!!!

[the nature boy]

OK, but you've also argued that the condition of gay kids is no worse than that of Arabs, jews, blacks. And when you are presented a statistic demonstrating the contrary, you question it because of the source of its REPORTING. So, your questioning is part of a pattern that is not exaclty objective since you took a stand earlier. ONe could as easily be skeptical about the claim that gay kids are no more abused than others.

what does it matter if their condition is worse or better? are there surveys from arab activist groups about the abuse of arab kids? or from white groups about white kids getting beaten in black schools? until those surveys come out I don't think you can say either way that gays have it worse than arabs or whites in black schools. right? or am I way off base on this too?

 

[musclebrains]

i am all for gays being allowed to have their own school, just so long as tax payers arent paying for institutionalized segregation.

What about the so-called boutique schools for kids in the arts?

 

[musclebrains]

what does it matter if their condition is worse or better? are there surveys from arab activist groups about the abuse of arab kids? or from white groups about white kids getting beaten in black schools? until those surveys come out I don't think you can say either way that gays have it worse than arabs or whites in black schools. right? or am I way off base on this too?

First you discount the statistic as biased. NOw you say, even though it's a comparison to the GENERAL population, that it doesn't matter.

I think there's probably a self-evident reason there is no survey (I can find) of the dropout and suicide rates among white kids beaten up in black schools. We aren't talking about abuse isolated from its consequences. We are talking about the consequences of the abuse. About Arab kids, I don't know. I doubt they are killing themselves very often.

What you don't seem to realize is that many of these children at the Milk school get no support at home. They get beaten up in the public schools and they go home and their parents tell 'em "tough shit." More than a few have been kicked out of the house by their parents -- a quite common adolescent occurrence among people I know. Sixteen year old kids kicked out by their parents. When those black kids who integrated the public schools with federal marshals as their escorts came home, they were treated like heroes by their families, communities and churches. That is NOT the situation of gay kids.

Arab children and white kids beaten up by black kids do not routinely lose the support of their families. A growing number of gay kids are supported by their familes. Many do not enjoy that and,again, the abuse is so intense and hateful that suicide becomes more attractive than living.

Finally, a member of an ethnic group is NOT told that his safety depends on his willingness to hide his identity -- because he can't. (Although the Uncle Tom was a psychological attempt at that.) Gay kids are routinely told to closet themselves -- hide thier identities -- and if they do not, they are told they are responsible for the abuse they suffer. YOu would never hear that said to a black kid: You're being beaten up because you are open about your identity. The Milk school acknowledges this reality without arguing against the ordinary job of schools to protect bullied children. It is dealing with what is -- not with what should be.

 

[atlantabiolab]

First you discount the statistic as biased. NOw you say, even though it's a comparison to the GENERAL population, that it doesn't matter.

I think there's probably a self-evident reason there is no survey (I can find) of the dropout and suicide rates among white kids beaten up in black schools. We aren't talking about abuse isolated from its consequences. We are talking about the consequences of the abuse. About Arab kids, I don't know. I doubt they are killing themselves very often.

What you don't seem to realize is that many of these children at the Milk school get no support at home. They get beaten up in the public schools and they go home and their parents tell 'em "tough shit." More than a few have been kicked out of the house by their parents -- a quite common adolescent occurrence among people I know. Sixteen year old kids kicked out by their parents. When those black kids who integrated the public schools with federal marshals as their escorts came home, they were treated like heroes by their families, communities and churches. That is NOT the situation of gay kids.

Arab children and white kids beaten up by black kids do not routinely lose the support of their families. A growing number of gay kids are supported by their familes. Many do not enjoy that and,again, the abuse is so intense and hateful that suicide becomes more attractive than living.

Finally, a member of an ethnic group is NOT told that his safety depends on his willingness to hide his identity -- because he can't. (Although the Uncle Tom was a psychological attempt at that.) Gay kids are routinely told to closet themselves -- hide thier identities -- and if they do not, they are told they are responsible for the abuse they suffer. YOu would never hear that said to a black kid: You're being beaten up because you are open about your identity. The Milk school acknowledges this reality without arguing against the ordinary job of schools to protect bullied children. It is dealing with what is -- not with what should be.

First, there are anecdotal cases of such abandonment, which are most likely true, but we must be presented with some number of these occurances. We are not bound to spend millions to form a school where 99% of the children are not suffering from such parental abandonment, only for the sake of 1%. There would be more efficient methods to address this occurance. This is a common method to pay for one's pet project: create the idea of a "hidden" multitude of victims who will come out of the woodwork only if you spend millions on their cause.

Second, there is no lawful foot that this school can stand on, since the Supreme Court has stated that "separate but equal" is unconstitutional. I believe that it is open to all, but to prevent others from diluting out the schools intended populace, gay children, it will have to attempt to exclude non-gay children in the future. This will no doubtedly happen if the school shows superiority in test scores compared to nearby schools.

Third, it does give precendence to the idea of separate but equal and will be the progenitor for any stretch of the imagination of "victim" children, be it fat, short, white, black, smart, stupid, etc.

 

[musclebrains]

First, there are anecdotal cases of such abandonment, which are most likely true, but we must be presented with some number of these occurances. We are not bound to spend millions to form a school where 99% of the children are not suffering from such parental abandonment, only for the sake of 1%. There would be more efficient methods to address this occurance. This is a common method to pay for one's pet project: create the idea of a "hidden" multitude of victims who will come out of the woodwork only if you spend millions on their cause.

Second, there is no lawful foot that this school can stand on, since the Supreme Court has stated that "separate but equal" is unconstitutional. I believe that it is open to all, but to prevent others from diluting out the schools intended populace, gay children, it will have to attempt to exclude non-gay children in the future. This will no doubtedly happen if the school shows superiority in test scores compared to nearby schools.

Third, it does give precendence to the idea of separate but equal and will be the progenitor for any stretch of the imagination of "victim" children, be it fat, short, white, black, smart, stupid, etc.

Nice try. There are boutique schools of all sorts all over the nation that are focused on the special needs of particular populations of students. Creating educational environments to meet special needs is not "separate but equal," a simplistic reduction. Black children do not have special needs on the basis of their skin color so segregating them IS in violation of that principle. This school was not created to teach kids how to be happy homos. It is not open to every gay kid who wants to attend. It was created to help those children who have been especially traumatized on the basis of their sexual identity. There is nothing in this remotely in violation of "separate but equal." It would be far more expensive to protect each of these kids individually in the public schools and I personally think that's what they should do, but this is a compromise with reality. I don't see Dubya sending little Bruce to school with a federal marshall, as Eisenhower did with black children, do you? And I can well imagine the reaction of people if he did.

LOL. A hidden multitude of victims. Did you read this thread? The hatred directed at gay people and their marginalization is hardly a "hidden" problem. Have you seen the documentary "Out in the Cold"? It thoroughly examines the community of homeless gay children in the South but, oh, I guess that's propaganda too. This is all a fantastic myth to gain sympathy and special rights for queers. It would be absolutely LUDICROUS to claim that gay children may be subject to more abuse than other kids. You only need to look at the empathetic language of these posts for a clue. (If this same hateful language were directed to other groups -- like blacks or Hispanics -- the posts would be locked. Indeed, under the rules of the board, I'm entitled to do that with hateful language directed at gay people.)

One suspects, as has already been demonstrated, that if a concerned organization conducted a survey of gay people regarding abandonment by parents, it would immediately be called biased. Do you imagine, the NYC board of education is making up cases to legitimate an expensive undertaking because -- what? -- it's under the spell of a charismatic gay person? This school is 20 years old and it is coming under attack NOW because it is expanding and because the Supreme Court has taken action that wingnuts are angry about.

I don't have the numbers on abandoned children. The school's material says it is particuarly interested in helping those kids, so it seems reasonable to presume that it is a significant problem. Anyone gay knows this to be true. I have noticed a persistent tendency to claim that all kids in school are teased equally, but nobody has demanded a survey in that respect. In that case, we are to be content with anecdotal evidence whereas the research projects that demonstrate the particularly grievous abuse of gay kids and its results are dismissed as biased. But personal experience of hetersexuals is not biased and apparently so self-evidently true that no survey is advocated. Righhhhhhhhhht.

 

[the nature boy]

First you discount the statistic as biased. NOw you say, even though it's a comparison to the GENERAL population, that it doesn't matter.

I think there's probably a self-evident reason there is no survey (I can find) of the dropout and suicide rates among white kids beaten up in black schools. We aren't talking about abuse isolated from its consequences. We are talking about the consequences of the abuse. About Arab kids, I don't know. I doubt they are killing themselves very often.

What you don't seem to realize is that many of these children at the Milk school get no support at home. They get beaten up in the public schools and they go home and their parents tell 'em "tough shit." More than a few have been kicked out of the house by their parents -- a quite common adolescent occurrence among people I know. Sixteen year old kids kicked out by their parents. When those black kids who integrated the public schools with federal marshals as their escorts came home, they were treated like heroes by their families, communities and churches. That is NOT the situation of gay kids.

Arab children and white kids beaten up by black kids do not routinely lose the support of their families. A growing number of gay kids are supported by their familes. Many do not enjoy that and,again, the abuse is so intense and hateful that suicide becomes more attractive than living.

Finally, a member of an ethnic group is NOT told that his safety depends on his willingness to hide his identity -- because he can't. (Although the Uncle Tom was a psychological attempt at that.) Gay kids are routinely told to closet themselves -- hide thier identities -- and if they do not, they are told they are responsible for the abuse they suffer. YOu would never hear that said to a black kid: You're being beaten up because you are open about your identity. The Milk school acknowledges this reality without arguing against the ordinary job of schools to protect bullied children. It is dealing with what is -- not with what should be.

you make some good points here. but isn't there a possibility that a percentage of the suicides and dropouts are as a result of feelings of confusion once a kid realizes they are homosexual? I would imagine that for some it might be a traumatic experience to come to that realzation. I'm not using this as a pro or a con for the school, I'm just trying to look into the statistics a bit.

 

[musclebrains]

you make some good points here. but isn't there a possibility that a percentage of the suicides and dropouts are as a result of feelings of confusion once a kid realizes they are homosexual? I would imagine that for some it might be a traumatic experience to come to that realzation. I'm not using this as a pro or a con for the school, I'm just trying to look into the statistics a bit.

Undoubtedly that's part of it, but the confusion and trauma pertinent to that self-realization is because it is so reviled in American culture. The VAST majority of kids remain silent and bide their time until they get out of school and aren't dependent on their parents and have more control over their environment. The kids killing themselves are "out." They couldn't be measured otherwise.

 

[MarthaStewart]

I think the school is a great idea.

The gays no longer have to recruit in the non-homo schools, which means that we will have more strapping young football playing lads growing up to rape cheerleaders at parties in college.

Without an active recruitment program, the gays will drastically drop in numbers, and before you know it, there will no longer be a need for their own schools.

 

[rvd_brock]

If there is evidence I'd like to see it. But since there is non that you can come up with you have to tell me to go ask a college professor. LOL How PATHETIC!!

Three of the biggest weaknesses of evolutionary theory are:

1. There is no adequate explanation for the origin of life from dead chemicals.
2. Even the simplest life form is tremendously complex.

In most people's minds like yours, fossils and Evolution go hand in hand. In reality, fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation. If Evolution were true, we should find literally millions of fossils that show how one kind of life slowly and gradually changed to another kind of life. But missing links are the trade secret, in a sense, of paleontology. The point is, the links are still missing.

Wow.....welcome to the 21st century. Let me ask you this. When was the last time you openend an evolutionary biology text? I studied evolution about 3 years ago and ALL of the newer texts have evidence of many of these "missing links" being found. Better yet, check out articles in LEGITIMATE biology and medical journals. Early fossils of whales showed that had leg-type appendages used for assisstance with mating. There are a plethora of other such changes in many different lines of species (I really don't feel like digging through my text books and listing them all).

One of the most significant pieces of evidence of evolution, that is irrefutable, is the existence of vestigial structures (body parts or biological and chemical structures inside the body that have no apparent use now). The most simple of these is the human coccyx (the tailbone). When you look at the transition from Australopithecus afarensis to Homo erectus to Homo habilus to Homo sapiens to Homo sapiens sapiens you will see this tail (and thus tailbone) slowly disappear. It was a useful appendage for earlier species, for balance, etc, but when they started more and more of an upright, bipedal stance, the tails became obsolete. And we still have a small part of that in us now, in a bone structure that is useless to humans today (except for hurting like a bitch when you fall on it and injur it). Another example of this is the human antibody IgE (Immunoglobulin Antibody E). This actually causes allergic responses, specifcially found in allergenic asthma. Why in the hell would this be in our systems? The answer: Early human ancestors needed this to fight diseases that were prevalent in their time. The diseases have since become extinct, but the antibody still exists in the human body (non-functionally), when it EVOLVED into the current form.

 

[MarthaStewart]

I think what you're going to find in this gay school is that shit is going to be AS fucked up there than as in regular school. sure the physical violence might not happen so much, but the verbal abuse will be the same. Kids at that age can be very nasty, and I'm sure homosexuals are no different.

yeah, but their plays and musicals are going to kick ass.