Nolva during entire cycle

[stunter954]

Would taking 20mg of nolvadex ed during my entire 10wk cycle of test enth be ok, I went to the dr. today and he perscribed nolva for slight gyno I have had since I was 16, and wants me to try it for the next 2 or 3 months. I wanted to start my cycle on monday but now im not sure if I should wait a couple months or if I could go ahead and start anyway.

 

[GUARDIAN]

he prescribed 20mg of nolva to combat the gyno and u want to jump on a cycle?

i understand u have had it since 16 but i think i would be taking care of that first before risking a cycle, imo.

 

[Donnie Darko]

You can get gyno again, only it will be worse, so I would use extreme caution. Oh, and the tamoxifen you were prescribed won't reverse the gyno you've had for several years.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

The only thing ive seen to help REVERSE long standing pubertal gyno is Letro followed by Nolva.

I have done some of my own research and testing with this combo and I have seen that it can work. It wont work for EVERYONE but its the only non-surgical approach that I have seen for for SOME.

-Legacy

 

[bsdgeek]

The only thing ive seen to help REVERSE long standing pubertal gyno is Letro followed by Nolva.

I have done some of my own research and testing with this combo and I have seen that it can work. It wont work for EVERYONE but its the only non-surgical approach that I have seen for for SOME.

-Legacy

yep- what he said. 100%

 

[eddymerckx]

^^agree if you do a cycle, better ramp up real slow and have letro/armidex in your pocket al all times.

i also wonder about the nolavadex--with the half life you will end up w/a lot in your system and it is hard on liver--so do not use any orals on the cycle

 

[bsdgeek]

he prescribed 20mg of nolva to combat the gyno and u want to jump on a cycle?

i understand u have had it since 16 but i think i would be taking care of that first before risking a cycle, imo.

^^ ditto.

again, get the gyno taken care of first.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

If you want info on how to run the Letro/Nolva treatment let me know and I will post up some info.

-Legacy

 

[Cryptlord]

You can get gyno again, only it will be worse, so I would use extreme caution. Oh, and the tamoxifen you were prescribed won't reverse the gyno you've had for several years.

Actually Nolva has been proven to reduce existing gyno... I dont get why people cant accept this.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

^^^ It has not been shown to reduce LONG STANDING PUBERTAL GYNO. It has been shown to reduce gyno that was induced by AAS.

-Legacy

 

[eddymerckx]

If you want info on how to run the Letro/Nolva treatment let me know and I will post up some info.

-Legacy

i would like to read that--i think mava had some good info on the combo but i cannot find the damn thing

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Taken from another Article:

To first understand why you are doing what you are doing I am going to go over a few things and a few definitions:

SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. [MAVA NOTE: The 1st part of this paragraph is incorrect. see below]If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.
_______________________________________________________

-Legacy

 

[Donnie Darko]

I am a bit curious about it being puberty related gyno at 16. Everyone I've ever talked to that had this problem, it would hit them around age 13-14. 16 probably wouldn't be out of the question, but a bit out of the norm. When you were 16, did you work out and use any prohormones that could have added or compounded the problem? Before I forget, how old are you now?

 

[ALIN]

Would taking 20mg of nolvadex ed during my entire 10wk cycle of test enth be ok, I went to the dr. today and he perscribed nolva for slight gyno I have had since I was 16, and wants me to try it for the next 2 or 3 months. I wanted to start my cycle on monday but now im not sure if I should wait a couple months or if I could go ahead and start anyway.

i prefer the AI's during cycle. much more effective IMO.

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

I started to notice "puffy nips" around 15-16 also...before ever using any type of workout supplement other than creatine. I still have "puffy nips" partially because Im at 16% bf right now starting my cutting, but still from pubertal gyno. The "pea sized" lump behind the nips went down though, and just feels like fat and glandular material back there now. I also hold fat in estrogenic places mainly in my butt...Letro/Nolva seemed to help the issues.

-Legacy

As for the original post creator, I dunno what his story is.

 

[jumpmaster82]

I got pubertal gyno at around 14. Started aas at 17 for football and I took all the anti e and a's precautions but it only got worse. I had the surgery at 19 and havent had a single gyno problem since.

 

[stunter954]

My dr. told me nolva doesnt work for every one but the do have good results for the type I have and I would try any kind of pill they have to fix it before I pay a shit load of money for a surgery.

 

[Donnie Darko]

I had a relative who got gyno at puberty and his doctor gave him something (this was over 20 years ago) and he recovered nicely. How long has tamoxifen been around anyway?

Stunter, it would be nice if you kept us informed. I always have this curiosity that I need to plug into my notes for various things. I need a new house too because I need a bigger library room. I have three bedrooms and a den crammed with books and parents how are storing another 4-5 bookcases worth of books. My basement is full of binders with tons of steroid and fitness related stuff (some handwritten and some copy, paste and print).

Anyway, bbulla, keep us or me posted so I can add to my neverending collection of cranial excrement as my fiance likes to call it.

 

[needtogetaas]

he prescribed 20mg of nolva to combat the gyno and u want to jump on a cycle?

i understand u have had it since 16 but i think i would be taking care of that first before risking a cycle, imo.

I feel the same bro. Always always always take care of gyno first before starting another cycle.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Taken from another Article:


......This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO.

I didnt read the whole article, but this part ^^ is COMPLETELY WRONG.

the SERM's nolva and raloxifene are THE ONLY compounds with numerous double-blind controlled scientific studies demonstrating their effectiveness at reversing existing gyno. I've posted them in other threads if anyone feels ambitious and wants to search them out and link them here.

Arimidex, a AI like letro, proved ineffective.

While Letro hasnt been studied for this purpose as gfar as I know, it gets such good anedotal buzz that it may prove effective if and when studied since its much more efficient than adex at obliterating almost all the estrogen in your system.

-

 

[needtogetaas]

This part of that article is COMPLETELY WRONG.

the SERM's nolva and raloxifene are THE ONLY compounds with numerous double-blind controlled scientific studies demonstrating their effectiveness at reversing existing gyno. I've posted them in other threads if anyone feels ambitious and wants to search them out and link them here.

Arimidex, a AI like letro, proved ineffective.

While Letro hasnt been studied for this purpose as gfar as I know, it gets such good anedotal buzz that it may prove effective if and when studied since its much more efficient than adex at obliterating almost all the estrogen in your system.

-

Mava is the shit.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Mava is the shit.

thats good right? lol

 

[needtogetaas]

thats good right? lol

Well I did not mean the sticky type of shit lol.

 

[goku_kakarot77]

nolva hinder gains too much imo, use a low dose of aromasin 12.5 eod what will do the trick and you still should make good gains if everything else your doing is right


peace

 

[RearNaked]

One of the biggest fears of steroid use is the development of gyno. This is also one thing along with roid rage and shrunken balls and even shrunken penis that most people especially newbies know about when it comes to steroids. If fact these three things are probably the first thing that pops in mind when a newbie/uneducated person thinks of roids. Gyno is caused by estrogen levels that are elevated beyond normal amounts. It can also be caused by elevated progesterone and prolactin levels, but these are usually only responsible when estrogen levels are also high. The individual sensitivity varies greatly, so whether you are prone to gyno or not you won't know till you run your first cycle, even then it might take a few cycles to see how susceptible you are. There are two ways of tackling this problem. One is in estrogen control, the other is estrogen receptor antagonism with a serm.

It appears to me that running a SERM throughout the cycle at a low dose is a good effective way of preventing gyno. Nolva, clomid, toremifene, or raloxifene are SERMs that can be run during cycle to prevent gyno. These are also better choices than running an ai because it will keep estrogen in your system which will keep exerting some beneficial effects such as glycogen synthesis, bone density, and blood lipids. Which should you run? Well I would rule out clomid because it has too many side effects especially the emotional ones, also it can desensitize the testes to LH which is bad. Toremifene is a great SERM, but I believe its purpose is best served in post cycle therapy, and it's pretty expensive to run during a cycle. So we are left with tamoxifen and raloxifene.

Tamoxifen is the preferred SERM to run during a cycle to prevent gyno. It can be run at doses starting at 10mg ED and increasing if any signs of gyno begin to appear. If gyno begins to appear increasing the dose to 60mg ed till the gyno recedes then tapering the dose back down to maybe 20mg Ed should be OK. Once again you can run the nolva the whole cycle which I recommend, this is a newbie guide so this will be your first cycle better to stay safe than sorry and run the nolva 10mg ED form day one. If on a test cycle maybe you can wait till weeks 3-4 when the test starts to kick in or when you start seeing signs of bloat which would indicated that your test and estrogen levels are rising and then begin the SERM.

Raloxifene is a relatively newcomer to the steroid scene. A medical study comparing tamoxifen and raloxifene at reducing pubertal gyno (gyno caused during puberty due to hormonal imbalances) showed that ralox was a good deal more effective at not only in the percentage of subjects it reduced the gyno in, but also in the level of gyno reduction. Ralox seems to be the better choice for a gyno prevention/treatment SERM during cycle. Ralox can also be used for post cycle therapy but the feedback is limited and I would suggest this best serves its purpose in preventing/reducing gyno. The dosage used is still up in the air. I have done some research and have a hard time finding any consistent numbers when it comes to dosage. I would recommend maybe 30mg ED and working your way up if that seems to be ineffective. If gyno symptoms begin to appear it is imperative that you increase the dosage immediately to treat the gyno. The faster you take action to treat the gyno the more likely it is to go away. Wait t long and it may become permanent.

Gyno can also be treated/prevented by using an AI such as arimidex or letro. Letro is the more powerful of the two, but it can take up to two weeks to take full effect so arimidex might be the better choice. If I was to show signs of gyno I would take a dose of perhaps 60-90mg ralox ED along with .5-1mg arimidex ed. The arimidex shouldn't affect the levels of ralox in the blood as letro would do to nolva. Once the gyno resides the arimidex would be decreased to .25mg ed (basically to the lowest dose that is still effective for you) and the ralox back but to a dose higher than was originally used for prevention, so over 30mg ed. The ai's are best used to treat gyno with SERM. If you're looking for just prevention with a AI use the lowest dose possible as to not hinder gains and prevent possible side effects.

Gyno can also be caused by increased levels of progesterone and prolactin. Prolactin will actually cause lactation. These two hormones usually will not cause gyno unless estrogen is also present so in order to treat gyno caused by progesterone and prolactin we must first treat the excess estrogen. That would be done by using the protocol found above, in addition to that we would add some progesterone/prolactin inhibitors. It is difficult to tell whether it is estrogen or progesterone/prolactin that causes the gyno. If your first cycle is test/tren or test/deca you will not know whether the estrogen form the test is causing gyno or the progesterone form the tren/deca is causing the gyno. Therefore it is best to run test alone for a first cycle.

 

[nzrodney]

One of the biggest fears of steroid use is the development of gyno. This is also one thing along with roid rage and shrunken balls and even shrunken penis that most people especially newbies know about when it comes to steroids. If fact these three things are probably the first thing that pops in mind when a newbie/uneducated person thinks of roids. Gyno is caused by estrogen levels that are elevated beyond normal amounts. It can also be caused by elevated progesterone and prolactin levels, but these are usually only responsible when estrogen levels are also high. The individual sensitivity varies greatly, so whether you are prone to gyno or not you won't know till you run your first cycle, even then it might take a few cycles to see how susceptible you are. There are two ways of tackling this problem. One is in estrogen control, the other is estrogen receptor antagonism with a serm.

It appears to me that running a SERM throughout the cycle at a low dose is a good effective way of preventing gyno. Nolva, clomid, toremifene, or raloxifene are SERMs that can be run during cycle to prevent gyno. These are also better choices than running an ai because it will keep estrogen in your system which will keep exerting some beneficial effects such as glycogen synthesis, bone density, and blood lipids. Which should you run? Well I would rule out clomid because it has too many side effects especially the emotional ones, also it can desensitize the testes to LH which is bad. Toremifene is a great SERM, but I believe its purpose is best served in post cycle therapy, and it's pretty expensive to run during a cycle. So we are left with tamoxifen and raloxifene.

Tamoxifen is the preferred SERM to run during a cycle to prevent gyno. It can be run at doses starting at 10mg ED and increasing if any signs of gyno begin to appear. If gyno begins to appear increasing the dose to 60mg ed till the gyno recedes then tapering the dose back down to maybe 20mg Ed should be OK. Once again you can run the nolva the whole cycle which I recommend, this is a newbie guide so this will be your first cycle better to stay safe than sorry and run the nolva 10mg ED form day one. If on a test cycle maybe you can wait till weeks 3-4 when the test starts to kick in or when you start seeing signs of bloat which would indicated that your test and estrogen levels are rising and then begin the SERM.

Raloxifene is a relatively newcomer to the steroid scene. A medical study comparing tamoxifen and raloxifene at reducing pubertal gyno (gyno caused during puberty due to hormonal imbalances) showed that ralox was a good deal more effective at not only in the percentage of subjects it reduced the gyno in, but also in the level of gyno reduction. Ralox seems to be the better choice for a gyno prevention/treatment SERM during cycle. Ralox can also be used for post cycle therapy but the feedback is limited and I would suggest this best serves its purpose in preventing/reducing gyno. The dosage used is still up in the air. I have done some research and have a hard time finding any consistent numbers when it comes to dosage. I would recommend maybe 30mg ED and working your way up if that seems to be ineffective. If gyno symptoms begin to appear it is imperative that you increase the dosage immediately to treat the gyno. The faster you take action to treat the gyno the more likely it is to go away. Wait t long and it may become permanent.

Gyno can also be treated/prevented by using an AI such as arimidex or letro. Letro is the more powerful of the two, but it can take up to two weeks to take full effect so arimidex might be the better choice. If I was to show signs of gyno I would take a dose of perhaps 60-90mg ralox ED along with .5-1mg arimidex ed. The arimidex shouldn't affect the levels of ralox in the blood as letro would do to nolva. Once the gyno resides the arimidex would be decreased to .25mg ed (basically to the lowest dose that is still effective for you) and the ralox back but to a dose higher than was originally used for prevention, so over 30mg ed. The ai's are best used to treat gyno with SERM. If you're looking for just prevention with a AI use the lowest dose possible as to not hinder gains and prevent possible side effects.

Gyno can also be caused by increased levels of progesterone and prolactin. Prolactin will actually cause lactation. These two hormones usually will not cause gyno unless estrogen is also present so in order to treat gyno caused by progesterone and prolactin we must first treat the excess estrogen. That would be done by using the protocol found above, in addition to that we would add some progesterone/prolactin inhibitors. It is difficult to tell whether it is estrogen or progesterone/prolactin that causes the gyno. If your first cycle is test/tren or test/deca you will not know whether the estrogen form the test is causing gyno or the progesterone form the tren/deca is causing the gyno. Therefore it is best to run test alone for a first cycle.

Good information. The arguement still exists as to weather SERMs or AIs are more effective at dealing with gyno & estrogen control. Long term use of SERMS have found to be toxic & cargenogenic. Most of the studies done are on women with breast cancer -
"Anastrozole should, therefore, now be considered a valid alternative option to tamoxifen for adjuvant hormonal treatment in all postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive early breast cancer. "

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/10/1/355S

"CONCLUSION: Given a favorable tolerability profile, once-daily dosing, and evidence of clinically relevant benefit, letrozole is equivalent to megestrol acetate and should be considered for use as an alternative treatment of advanced breast cancer in postmenopausal women after treatment failure with antiestrogens. "
http://jco.ascopubs.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/14/3357

http://qualitycounts.com/drugs/breast_cancer/femara_letrozole.htm

 

[access]

This shouldn't be the argument here though. Ideally OP should be getting his gyno taken care of before beginning his cycle. Going on cycle will likely only exacerbate the situation.

Mav is spot on too with the Nolva reversing gyno including pubescent gyno. See below:

1: J Pediatr. 2004 Jul;145(1):71-6. Related Articles, Links

Comment in:

* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.
* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.

Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

[email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.

STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).

RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.
CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[DJLegacy2k1]

Keep in mind that I did not write the article I posted. Either way I have not seen studies showing GREAT %'s of people with NOLVA ONLY treatment being very high, as shown in the article above. Keep in mind we are talking about the best way to treat the GYNO 100% and shrink or destroy any mass to 0% or as close to it as possible. Most articles state that Nolva WILL help, but not many cases state that gyno was completely reduced or destroyed.

Letro seems to be a little bit better because it drops estogen levels DRAMATICALLY to almost nothing. This then STARVES the breast tissue of the estrogen it needs to survive, then following the letro with nolva then prevents any estrogen rebound and flares ups that may occur as your body trys to get levels back to normal.

I dont think anyone has a 100% solution, but I still think that Letro/Nolva combo would work better than Nolva alone.

Nolva WILL get some people results, its just a matter of where the gyno came from, how long its been around, and how much it will help.

I agree with your point though that the article is wrong to say that NOLVA will NOT help at all.

-Legacy