no wonder iraqis hate us

[Lao Tzu]

http://www.uruklink.net/iraqnews/echild.htm



on my daily carouse of the internet, i decided to check out the state sponsored iraqi news agency website.

Its a nice counterbalance to the perpetual 'we are right and whoever we aren't getting along with now is evil' dogma spouted by the american media, but what blatant propaganda that iraq shit is.

 

[Citruscide]

No diggity, no doubt...

C

 

[KAYNE]

NORD

DO YOU LIVE IN THE U.S.? ARE YOU AMERICAN? CUZ YOU SURE SEEM TO DISLIKE THIS PLACE A HELL OF A LOT. WHICH BRINGS US TO THE OLD ADDAGE, "IF YOU HATE THIS PLACE SO MUCH, WHY DONT YOU JUST LEAVE"??? JUST CURIOUS.


KAYNE

 

[Lao Tzu]

NORD

DO YOU LIVE IN THE U.S.? ARE YOU AMERICAN? CUZ YOU SURE SEEM TO DISLIKE THIS PLACE A HELL OF A LOT. WHICH BRINGS US TO THE OLD ADDAGE, "IF YOU HATE THIS PLACE SO MUCH, WHY DONT YOU JUST LEAVE"??? JUST CURIOUS.


KAYNE

I didn't say anything anti-american in this post, i was pointing out what the Iraqis are exposed to everyday, trying to figure out why they hate us, and pointing out that stuff like that never appears in american media. Here in america we are perpetually exposed to stories about the kurds being gassed or female circumcision, and iraq is called an aggressor. Iraq newspapers perpetually talk about american aggression, and women/children dying from American actions. Its just a nice counterbalance. for example
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/wehr02.htm is german propaganda on WW2. It is a nice counterbalance to allied propaganda (we love freedom, and must protect it because we are attacked by the evil germans). I never said i agreed with iraqi propaganda, just that it was a nice counterbalance to american propaganda.

I will wholly admit that i used to be very antiamerican (about a year ago) but that was because i was indoctrinated with left wing propaganda at the time. I have become much more politically moderate, largely due to the intelligent (no sarcasm meant) debates i get into on elite with its conservative faction.

and i don't leave becuase it is a relatively free country. If you dont like that, that people can have their own opinions, why dont you leave? People are free to have opinions you dont agree with in america.

 

[italktoplanets]

People are free to have opinions you dont agree with in america.

enough said..

 

[madbomber31]

kayne man, why'd y ou jump on the guy for posting a news link??? i believe he was pointing out how biased the iraqi news was AGAINST us and that was the cause of our being hated so severely.... (news or letter or whatever that thing was)...

i'd hate a country that was using nuclear weapons on me too, and thats what they think due to propaganda by their gov.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Guys I think KAYNE was basically asking because it was kinda unclear if any antiAmericanism was going on.

I agree that freedom of speech (and opinion) is wonderful, but if anybody does hate America that lives here - that's fine to have an opinion, but get the hell out of America and quit wasting my tax money and wasting space!

 

[Ffactor]

Let's try to separate politics from patriotism, just becuase I don't agree with the government and media does not mean I am not patriotic. As far as Iraq goes we seem to forget that they did absolutely nothing to us, we attacked them for taking over Kuwait, something that other countries have done repeatedly in history. So, of course the Iraqis hate us!! We bombed the shit out of them. People are dying there by the boatload because of sanctions. Do you blame them?

 

[alien amp pharm]

Let's try to separate politics from patriotism, just becuase I don't agree with the government and media does not mean I am not patriotic. As far as Iraq goes we seem to forget that they did absolutely nothing to us, we attacked them for taking over Kuwait, something that other countries have done repeatedly in history. So, of course the Iraqis hate us!! We bombed the shit out of them. People are dying there by the boatload because of sanctions. Do you blame them?

Iraq did nothing to us???? How many times have they said that as soon as they acquire nukes (weapons of mass destruction) that they won't hesitate to use them on America? Hell, Sadam killed his own people. And the bombing was appropriate. -You just can't have some maniac like Sadam taking over everything (oil, countries, etc.). Somebody's gotta keep the peace and some sanity in the world. - even if it means 'some' people dying.

 

[dballer]

nord is right.. how can we expect them to like us.

all of you who understand this.. (we will make an example for curling).. ask yourselves.. where does all of this come from. There is only one reason.

We have been denied the facts. We have had our news supressed.

 

[Ffactor]

I cannot confirm nor deny that but did they do so before the war or after the war. I am by NO means a bleeding heart liberal but I cannot justify people dying for OIL under ANY circumstances! Now Saudi Arabia is a totally different issue.
Why?
1. The terrorists responsible for 9/11 were mostly Saudi.
2. Funding for those attacks came from Saudi Arabia.
3. They are funding the spread of a very fundamentalist sect of Islam across the globe.
4. THEY ATTACKED US!! IT WAS AN ACT OF WAR!!

 

[dballer]

I cannot confirm nor deny that but did they do so before the war or after the war. I am by NO means a bleeding heart liberal but I cannot justify people dying for OIL under ANY circumstances! Now Saudi Arabia is a totally different issue.
Why?
1. The terrorists responsible for 9/11 were mostly Saudi.
2. Funding for those attacks came from Saudi Arabia.
3. They are funding the spread of a very fundamentalist sect of Islam across the globe.
4. THEY ATTACKED US!! IT WAS AN ACT OF WAR!!

Have you asked yourself why these attacks were carried out?

 

[Ffactor]

Yes but it is difficult to do that when your country is attacked. New York is like a second home to me. I have family in Brooklyn Heights. I go there every month and every time I have to face it's permanently altered skyline, so I cannot in any way justify the attacks!

 

[dballer]

Yes but it is difficult to do that when your country is attacked. New York is like a second home to me. I have family in Brooklyn Heights. I go there every month and every time I have to face it's permanently altered skyline, so I cannot in any way justify the attacks!

of course I am not asking you to justify the attacks.. in NO WAY.. but you should at least know why they attack.. since our trusty news media has not really brought it to light.

 

[Prometheus]

Let's try to separate politics from patriotism, just becuase I don't agree with the government and media does not mean I am not patriotic.

Very true. Questioning the US and debating its policies in an effort to improve them is patriotic in the true sense.

Naturally, "patriotism" is defined by politicians as mindless flagwaving and unquestioning sacrifice when they say so - problem is that what the politicians want is not necessarily what is best for America.

Loving your country and striving to improve it aren't always consistent with obeying politicians.

 

[alien amp pharm]

of course I am not asking you to justify the attacks.. in NO WAY.. but you should at least know why they attack.. since our trusty news media has not really brought it to light.

enlighten us......why?

 

[dballer]

enlighten us......why?

I tell you what... if I tell you.. I am pushing my views down your throat. So go check it out for yourself. It is not a big secret in London media.. you should be able to find it easily. But if I was to post somthing on it.. I could be misleading you. I do not want that.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Okay. Although I am not usually one to get upset or angry over another's views (because even if I disagree, the arguments never has a winner) but if you were to express why, there'll be no flaming from me. I respect what you say/think.

 

[manny78]

Do you really think your lives will change after the US invade Iraq ?........

 

[Prometheus]

enlighten us......why?

I forgot the exact words, but there's a famous quote generally saying that a mark of intelligence is being able to argue an opposing position without espousing it.

point is that there is a difference between rationalization and justification. to ask WHY they attacked is not the same as saying it's CORRECT that they attacked.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Do you really think your lives will change after the US invade Iraq ?........

No, but at least I'll still have a life to live after we invade Iraq.

This could all be settled if they'd simply let weapons inspectors into Iraq. They are obviously hiding something (plus we wouldn't attack for no reason) and if it means getting nukes, etc. out of the hands of a madman, then it's worth it.

 

[manny78]

No, but at least I'll still have a life to live after we invade Iraq.

This could all be settled if they'd simply let weapons inspectors into Iraq. They are obviously hiding something (plus we wouldn't attack for no reason) and if it means getting nukes, etc. out of the hands of a madman, then it's worth it.

Saddam said he was ready to let US inspectors in.

Question for you: why don't you attack Saudi Arabia instead ? Too much for you ?

 

[alien amp pharm]

Saddam said he was ready to let US inspectors in.

Question for you: why don't you attack Saudi Arabia instead ? Too much for you ?

Hey, I wish these decisions were up to me, trust me! But we don't attack Saudi Arabia because we are constantly "kissing their butts" because we don't want to anger them. It's all about the oil my friend, sad to say.

 

[manny78]

Hey, I wish these decisions were up to me, trust me! But we don't attack Saudi Arabia because we are constantly "kissing their butts" because we don't want to anger them. It's all about the oil my friend, sad to say.

yup I know it's all about the oil, but think about it: you invade them then you seize their oilfield....... not so bad ?

 

[Frackal]

I find this whole thing fucking disgusting...particularly the use of depleted uranium.... some genius at the pentagon must have said "Hey, we've got all this nuclear waste lying around, lets make tank busters with it and dump it all over another country instead of dealing with it here."

 

[dballer]

I will post a news story in a few minutes. I am busy here at the job.

 

[manny78]

I find this whole thing fucking disgusting...particularly the use of depleted uranium.... some genius at the pentagon must have said "Hey, we've got all this nuclear waste lying around, lets make tank busters with it and dump it all over another country instead of dealing with it here."

remeber that Iraqis thanks were mostly from the old generation (T-54, T-62 and some T-72) driven by unexperienced crew. No need for uranium ammos IMO.

 

[alien amp pharm]

yup I know it's all about the oil, but think about it: you invade them then you seize their oilfield....... not so bad ?

ha ha, true. If we were Sadam or someone as equally evil, then we could do that.

I am all for the U.S. to start drilling in untapped areas here at home, but unfortunately we have too many "pollitically correct enviromentalist tree-huggers" that stand in the way. I understand some of their concerns, but some of it is way overboard.

 

[Prometheus]

Hey, I wish these decisions were up to me, trust me! But we don't attack Saudi Arabia because we are constantly "kissing their butts" because we don't want to anger them. It's all about the oil my friend, sad to say.

If it was about oil, there was ample opportunity to take it -- Iraq was completely defeated in 1991. The US could have taken the oil wells then. Saddam even set them on fire - the US sent specialists in there to put out the fires, then gave them back to Iraq. Today the US buys millions of dollars of oil a day from Iraq.

(yes, TODAY - the US is paying money to someone it terms a "madman" whose only goal is apparently to destroy the US. maybe he can use the US oil payments to buy bullets to further that goal...)

 

[manny78]

ha ha, true. If we were Sadam or someone as equally evil, then we could do that.

I am all for the U.S. to start drilling in untapped areas here at home, but unfortunately we have too many "pollitically correct enviromentalist tree-huggers" that stand in the way. I understand some of their concerns, but some of it is way overboard.

what they dont even understand is: it's not about pollution but rather about taking away the only political weapon the Saudis have, OIL. No oil, the Royal family is just a bunch of starving camel......

 

[alien amp pharm]

You all make some very good points. I like civillized discussions like this.

I use to think the Chat Board people were ruthless a-holes in general, but I've changed my attitude about that.

As for the uranium missles/bombs, I do structural design for a living and got to visit a local plant that makes the uranium rods for these missles. I was there to inspect the building, but the head guy had some interesting stuff to say. The rod is actually what penetrates the tanks. He said that during the gulf war some rods actually went completely thru the entire tank! wow!

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

Do you really think your lives will change after the US invade Iraq ?........

has YOUR life changed after 9/11? If you weren't there then most of you wouldn't really be affected by it. Sure most of you might have been glued to your TV's for about a week but I seriously doubt it changed your life forever.

And to that guy that was basically saying that Bush is just making up the idea that Iraq is a threat. Sorry to inform you buddy, but they ALWAYS have been. Especially after desert storm. The truth is that Sadam will be looking to get even with the US at any cost. You just want us to ignore him especially now?? I'm sure he's connected to the terrorist attacks and we're supposed to just let that slide.

A lot of you are saying, "No wonder THEY hate US." Do you see us parading around in the streets with the American flag after we bomb THEM? No, you don't. Because I believe we're better than that. We're more understanding. We don't teach our children IN OUR SCHOOLS to hate other people, just because.

I really hate the way that America always has to be the passive one. I know a lot of you would disagree. It just seemed that way espcially during the Clinton era. We HAD the opportunity to prevent everything that happened on 9/11; we had serveral. But don't blame our current President. There were warning about this years ago. I just can't believe no one bothered to bring this up.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Pure Extract:
Very well said and 100% agreed. Karma 4 U

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

thanks brother. I thought I'd get flamed like hell for that. I'm glad that you agreed.

 

[Prometheus]

I'm sure he's connected to the terrorist attacks and we're supposed to just let that slide.

I really hate the way that America always has to be the passive one.

I'm not going to flame you, but I think this is incorrect. You are sure he is connected to the attacks - based on what? The only ones saying so are those that are trying to justify invading Iraq and bombing Baghdad. Of course they say he's involved, they have no choice.

as for the US being passive, that is absurd. Passive how? economically? militarily? culturally? have you considered the role of the US's aggresiveness, rather than its passivity, in the hatred much of the world, especially the Arab world, harbors? Is there a lot of global hatred for truly passive countries, like Switzerland or Sweden?

as for dancing in the streets -- do a web search on VJ-Day - there are pictures of thousands of Americans dancing in the streets, confetti and flags flying, in celebration of the vaporization of 150,000 Japanese civilians. Just as the English celebrated when Hitler fell. And the East Germans danced when the Wall came down, and rightly so.

Again, not as a justification, but it's a question of perspective -- to them YOU are the enemy. just because they are dancing at YOUR defeat doesn't make the dancing any better or worse.

 

[manny78]

has YOUR life changed after 9/11? If you weren't there then most of you wouldn't really be affected by it. Sure most of you might have been glued to your TV's for about a week but I seriously doubt it changed your life forever.

And to that guy that was basically saying that Bush is just making up the idea that Iraq is a threat. Sorry to inform you buddy, but they ALWAYS have been. Especially after desert storm. The truth is that Sadam will be looking to get even with the US at any cost. You just want us to ignore him especially now?? I'm sure he's connected to the terrorist attacks and we're supposed to just let that slide.

A lot of you are saying, "No wonder THEY hate US." Do you see us parading around in the streets with the American flag after we bomb THEM? No, you don't. Because I believe we're better than that. We're more understanding. We don't teach our children IN OUR SCHOOLS to hate other people, just because.

I really hate the way that America always has to be the passive one. I know a lot of you would disagree. It just seemed that way espcially during the Clinton era. We HAD the opportunity to prevent everything that happened on 9/11; we had serveral. But don't blame our current President. There were warning about this years ago. I just can't believe no one bothered to bring this up.

good patriotic arguments, weak logic. The main responsible for the attacks were Saudis not Iraquis. But again your country has no balls when it comes to talk about the Saudis. Iraq a threat ? Wake up dude, China is a bigger threat (but you wanna make business with them duhh), North Korea (you wont since China is protecting them), Iran, Syria (they probably have nuke weapons), Pakistan, ......


Iraq is an easy target. Should take about a week to crush them. One week of gull CNN coverage with few casualties. Unless it turns into another Somalia blood fest.

No my life hasn't changed since 9/11.

The day the US will attack either Saudi Arabia or China I will respect them.

 

[Fonz]

You all make some very good points. I like civillized discussions like this.

I use to think the Chat Board people were ruthless a-holes in general, but I've changed my attitude about that.

As for the uranium missles/bombs, I do structural design for a living and got to visit a local plant that makes the uranium rods for these missles. I was there to inspect the building, but the head guy had some interesting stuff to say. The rod is actually what penetrates the tanks. He said that during the gulf war some rods actually went completely thru the entire tank! wow!

Its called a Sabot round. Its also normally fin stabilized.
The reason why depleted Uranium is used is that it is EXTYREMELY
dense. That thing will go through a whole foot of reinforced armour.
An M1A2 Abrams tank can take out another tank at 5000m
with these rounds.
They also have incendiary sabot...LOL

Fonz

 

[Ffactor]

PE - I understand what you are saying bro, I agree after their defeat in the war they will most likely take the first opportunity to harm us. I am just very cautious about what I hear from the media though. In Iraq, instead of dancing around in the streets as the media portrays who is to say they are not debating issues the same way we are. Are we really THAT much more civilized than they are as a country?

 

[alien amp pharm]

I see what you all are saying and respect your opinions. Now here's mine:

Iraq (Sadam) may not be directly related to the 9/11 attacks, but he is a supporter or terrorism, which is what 9/11 was.

As for the very passive contries like Switzerland and Sweeden, there would be no such contries if certain 'evil powers' took over the world. -and by evil I mean killing innocent people for no reason. We defend freedom and the "little guys" that connot protect themselves, and for this reason the US is hated by much of the world. I don't see the US going in and attacking places like South America, Australlia, etc. just for the hell of it trying to kill everyone.

Manny78: You're right, China is more of a threat, but what does the US do? It would end up the whole world nuked if two countries of such magnitude got into a full pledged war.
I wish we would do something about Saudi Arabia, but as mentioned earlier we won't due to oil.

Ok, I'm rambling because I'm thinking/typing fast here at work, but my main point is:
If the US doesn't stand up for human life and protecting freedom, then who is? I see no other countries with the balls to do it. We are the only ones, hence the hatred by these terroristic countries.

 

[Ffactor]

You all make some very good points. I like civillized discussions like this.

I use to think the Chat Board people were ruthless a-holes in general, but I've changed my attitude about that.

I agree until somebody jumps in with camel this and towel that and then everybody jumps into it and things become stupid.

 

[manny78]

Ok, I'm rambling because I'm thinking/typing fast here at work, but my main point is:
If the US doesn't stand up for human life and protecting freedom, then who is? I see no other countries with the balls to do it. We are the only ones, hence the hatred by these terroristic countries.

I see your point but where were you during the Rwanda genocide. That's my point: 9/11 has little to do with the invasion. It's about oil and influence in the region.

To answer the question about Rwanda: you didn't move (just like many other countries) cause Rwanda his a shitty country. Nothing strategic there.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Ok, I'm rambling because I'm thinking/typing fast here at work, but my main point is:
If the US doesn't stand up for human life and protecting freedom, then who is? I see no other countries with the balls to do it. We are the only ones, hence the hatred by these terroristic countries.

Most of the first world is actively involved in protecting freedom around the world, not just america. We all do it, not just USA.


I wonder what will happen if pakistan is overthrown by a neo-taliban regime? they already have nukes (short range nukes at least).

 

[manny78]

Most of the first world is actively involved in protecting freedom around the world, not just america. We all do it, not just USA.


I wonder what will happen if pakistan is overthrown by a neo-taliban regime? they already have nukes (short range nukes at least).

but they also have F-16 and a crazy bunch of Muslim fanatics so dont even expect a reaction from the US.

 

[alien amp pharm]

I see your point but where were you during the Rwanda genocide. That's my point: 9/11 has little to do with the invasion. It's about oil and influence in the region.

To answer the question about Rwanda: you didn't move (just like many other countries) cause Rwanda his a shitty country. Nothing strategic there.

Point taken. I suppose there is some sort of "double-standard" there as certain incidents are ignored due to such "nothing gained" situations.

Hey maybe we can take over Canada, nah, forget that there's nothing there worth anything either.
-----I'M ONLY JOKING!!! NO FLAMES PLEASE

(for the records, I like Canada. It's just too cold for me)

 

[minion]

as for dancing in the streets -- do a web search on VJ-Day - there are pictures of thousands of Americans dancing in the streets, confetti and flags flying, in celebration of the vaporization of 150,000 Japanese civilians. Just as the English celebrated when Hitler fell. And the East Germans danced when the Wall came down, and rightly so.

This statement is out of context. There is a big difference between the two events of 9/11 and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Most veterens here in Japan will tell you "we would have stopped at nothing less, it was war after all".

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

I'm not going to flame you, but I think this is incorrect. You are sure he is connected to the attacks - based on what? The only ones saying so are those that are trying to justify invading Iraq and bombing Baghdad. Of course they say he's involved, they have no choice.

as for the US being passive, that is absurd. Passive how? economically? militarily? culturally? have you considered the role of the US's aggresiveness, rather than its passivity, in the hatred much of the world, especially the Arab world, harbors? Is there a lot of global hatred for truly passive countries, like Switzerland or Sweden?

as for dancing in the streets -- do a web search on VJ-Day - there are pictures of thousands of Americans dancing in the streets, confetti and flags flying, in celebration of the vaporization of 150,000 Japanese civilians. Just as the English celebrated when Hitler fell. And the East Germans danced when the Wall came down, and rightly so.

Again, not as a justification, but it's a question of perspective -- to them YOU are the enemy. just because they are dancing at YOUR defeat doesn't make the dancing any better or worse.

First off, you're going to sit there and say that he isn't involved in ANY terrorist activity? You're a fucking tool. You want to bring up the past bro? You're going to say we didn't have to right to do what we did after Pearl Harbor? Fuck you and the rest that agree with you. I guess that's the difference between people like us. If this country was run by people like you there WOULDN'T even be a United States. Also I need to ask you, are you comparing Americans to Hilter and to the Japanese? I mean that's what it seems like to me. You're saying that the Palestenians had every right to be celebrating in the street when they killed thousands of Americans. I'm not the type of man that is going to sit in the middle of the fence. I'm for America and that is that. Anyone that doesn't like us IS against us. Plain and simple. And yes I believe us to be passive. I believe that we've proven that. Clinton had the power to take out Bin Laden, but backed off. Why? Because he was getting out of office. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference if we killed him or not, who knows. But that's the thing you see, now...we'll never know.

 

[minion]

Good points all around but that is also where some of the hatred stems. US doesn't get involved unless they have something to gain from it (or something to protect).

Yes the US protects the "little guys", but they also ignore the "little guys" too!

Iraq is not a real threat, just a nuisance. They will bomb them just enough to destroy their destructive potential, but just enough not to piss off the rest of the world (Saudis).

That's one way of looking at it, seems kind of skewd to me though. But yes I concede there is some truth to it. In retrospect the USA isn't a charity organization. I don't run the country but I could imagine the imense size of detail to run this country. Always having to think years in advance, coordination of other countries, management of its citizens, enterprising economy, ect, ect, ect, ect.

The Saudi's have control over OPEC. OPEC has control over the world economy. So yes it would be in our best interest to go around them for now.

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

good patriotic arguments, weak logic. The main responsible for the attacks were Saudis not Iraquis. But again your country has no balls when it comes to talk about the Saudis. Iraq a threat ? Wake up dude, China is a bigger threat (but you wanna make business with them duhh), North Korea (you wont since China is protecting them), Iran, Syria (they probably have nuke weapons), Pakistan, ......


Iraq is an easy target. Should take about a week to crush them. One week of gull CNN coverage with few casualties. Unless it turns into another Somalia blood fest.

No my life hasn't changed since 9/11.

The day the US will attack either Saudi Arabia or China I will respect them.

Weak Logic? How is this weak logic amigo? You don't have respect for the US? Yeah it's not like we hold this world together or anything. China? Give me a break. Yeah, might be the largest active army. But how effective are 10 people on mountain bikes? Simply not a challenge. People really seem to forget, we ARE the most advanced and the MOST powerful military force on this planet. We will always come out on top. No offense to any other countries out there; this is just my great patriotic non logic talk.

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

PE - I understand what you are saying bro, I agree after their defeat in the war they will most likely take the first opportunity to harm us. I am just very cautious about what I hear from the media though. In Iraq, instead of dancing around in the streets as the media portrays who is to say they are not debating issues the same way we are. Are we really THAT much more civilized than they are as a country?

I guess we'll never know. It's all very frustrating. I'm sure there are some there that don't hate us, but we have to take into consideration that they're not just making us look bad in the news, they're teaching this to their students in schools. As a country, I believe we are more civilized. Well, maybe it's just safe to say that there are more civilized ppl here than over there.

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

Hmmm...do you really think that WE don't have nukes? We probably have enough to blow up the planet 10 times. You obviously don't know shit about the military, I had to go through classes and learn about this shit when I was active. They don't feed us lies about any other Army. In Korea, we know that we're simply a road block there. But sorry bro, China on the ground would not compare. Just facts. Let's just remember this, after National Guard and Reserve Units have been activated, we are the largest Army. That's just the Army. I don't even want to bring up our other branches. China would get the PEOPLE'S ELBOW. You do have a good point though, they would launch first because they're probably the smartest people around and they'd know the ass whooping that would be coming to them.
I really respect the Chinese people though; most of them have great honor.

And Osama, well, let's just remember back when you were in high school and you used to run from the school bully. Well it's pretty much the same thing. You got away but eventually, he'd catch you and beat the shit out of you. (You forget that we could have taken Osama out, but Clinton backed down)

 

[buddy28]

Please post valid statistics indicating the total number of Iraqi child deaths caused by US led economic sanctions levied against Iraq after the conclusion of the Gulf War.

Bolix gave me a link to a Guardian newspaper article suggesting actual Iraqi child malnutrition deaths due to US imposed economic sanctions were less then previously estimated due to Iraqi Government embellishment of child malnutrition mortality rates to encourage global opposition to US led Iraqi economic sanctions.

So instead of 900,000 Iraqi child deaths, perhaps its something like 300,000 - 400,000 Iraqi child deaths. Whoop de doo.


The United States has played a large role in the genesis of this whole 'Iraq Problem'. So please spare me the blind US war rhetoric of defenders of justice and the free world. How was the US Government defending the free world when it stood idly by as their admitted ally, Saddam Huessien, gassed thousands of his own people with chemical and biological agents supplied to him by the US Government?

Was the brutal suppression of Iranian anti American sentiment even necessary to ensure short term US domestic national security objectives? Not even close.

The US just wanted to throw their fucking weight around and show the Arabs they wernt going to be fucked with. Justly or unjustly. And how many Iranians had to die under the Shaw so the American Government could courageously display its magnanimous will? More killed then in the Pentagon and WTC terrorist attacks. But who cares, right?! They're arabs!!

The US Government has and will continue to be purveyors of national dictatorships, tyrannical rulers, and terrorist factions just as long as it ensures its citizens the ability to wave their flags blindly and pat themselves on the back for being part of such a noble country. And sometimes their motivations arnt even that virtuous. Sometimes the US Government maliciously intervenes in foreign Government affairs, often at the expense of innocent foreign life, to send a message to foreign Governments not to fuck with US Corporate interests. pathetic.

US Government arrogance is going to get us all fucking killed.

how?

Propping up nondemocratically elected Pro American dictators in any country only polarizes nationalistic sentiment in the citizenry and national political opposition groups. Throw into the mix the religion card to unite the predominately Middle Eastern Muslim nations whom the American Government has maliciously meddled in the political affairs of, and you've got a real fucking problem.

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq.......


oh and heres an idea. Why don't we all unconditionally support the blood thirsty Israeli Jews in their conquest of the indigenous Israeli Palestinian population so we can further confirm the prevalent Muslim perception of Americans as biased, arrogant, glutenous war mongers who are incapable of compromise and developing an empathetic respect for foriegn cultures and religions.

Middle Eastern Muslim nations will eventually cooperativily retaliate against America and Israel because their affairs are being maliciously manipulated by an outside aggressor ( the US Government), and because the Koran, their BIBLE, admonishes them to attack any entity which threatens the integrity of their beleifs and way of life. Jihad. Holy War.


If the Soviets propped up an nondemocratically elected US President which served Soviet interests before your own needs, and the needs of your fellow country men, you wouldn't be calling for blood???!?

Hypocrites.

 

[KAYNE]

and i don't leave becuase it is a relatively free country. If you dont like that, that people can have their own opinions, why dont you leave? People are free to have opinions you dont agree with in america.

I'M NOT THE ONE BITCHING ABOUT AMERICA BEING SO BAD. THATS WHY I DONT LEAVE. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR OPINION (AS YOU PREVIOUSLY STATED IT). HOWEVER, YOUR OPINION IS ALWAYS NEGATIVE WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO THAT OLD ADDAGE AGAIN. WHY ARE (WERE) YOU ANTI-AMERICAN? WHERE ELSE CAN YOU GO TO ENJOY THE FREEDOMS THAT YOU HAVE HERE. EVEN THOUGH IT IS KINDA FUCKED UP, I'M SURE ESLEWHERE IS WORSE.

AS FOR THE PROPAGANDA, I ONLY HAVE ONE THING TO SAY ABOUT THAT: DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE IRAQIS ARE NOT BEING EXPOSED TO PROPAGANDA ABOUT AMERICANS!!!???


KAYNE

 

[minion]

Please post valid statistics indicating the total number of Iraqi child deaths caused by US led economic sanctions levied against Iraq after the conclusion of the Gulf War.

Bolix gave me a link to a Guardian newspaper article suggesting actual Iraqi child malnutrition deaths due to US imposed economic sanctions were less then previously estimated due to Iraqi Government embellishment of child malnutrition mortality rates to encourage global opposition to US led Iraqi economic sanctions.

So instead of 900,000 Iraqi child deaths, perhaps its something like 300,000 - 400,000 Iraqi child deaths. Whoop de doo.


The United States has played a large role in the genesis of this whole 'Iraq Problem'. So please spare me the blind US war rhetoric of defenders of justice and the free world. How was the US Government defending the free world when it stood idly by as their admitted ally, Saddam Huessien, gassed thousands of his own people with chemical and biological agents supplied to him by the US Government?

Was the brutal suppression of Iranian anti American sentiment even necessary to ensure short term US domestic national security objectives? Not even close.

The US just wanted to throw their fucking weight around and show the Arabs they wernt going to be fucked with. Justly or unjustly. And how many Iranians had to die under the Shaw so the American Government could courageously display its magnanimous will? More killed then in the Pentagon and WTC terrorist attacks. But who cares, right?! They're arabs!!

The US Government has and will continue to be purveyors of national dictatorships, tyrannical rulers, and terrorist factions just as long as it ensures its citizens the ability to wave their flags blindly and pat themselves on the back for being part of such a noble country. And sometimes their motivations arnt even that virtuous. Sometimes the US Government maliciously intervenes in foreign Government affairs, often at the expense of innocent foreign life, to send a message to foreign Governments not to fuck with US Corporate interests. pathetic.

US Government arrogance is going to get us all fucking killed.

how?

Propping up nondemocratically elected Pro American dictators in any country only polarizes nationalistic sentiment in the citizenry and national political opposition groups. Throw into the mix the religion card to unite the predominately Middle Eastern Muslim nations whom the American Government has maliciously meddled in the political affairs of, and you've got a real fucking problem.

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq.......


oh and heres an idea. Why don't we all unconditionally support the blood thirsty Israeli Jews in their conquest of the indigenous Israeli Palestinian population so we can further confirm the prevalent Muslim perception of Americans as biased, arrogant, glutenous war mongers who are incapable of compromise and developing an empathetic respect for foriegn cultures and religions.

Middle Eastern Muslim nations will eventually cooperativily retaliate against America and Israel because their affairs are being maliciously manipulated by an outside aggressor ( the US Government), and because the Koran, their BIBLE, admonishes them to attack any entity which threatens the integrity of their beleifs and way of life. Jihad. Holy War.


If the Soviets propped up an nondemocratically elected US President which served Soviet interests before your own needs, and the needs of your fellow country men, you wouldn't be calling for blood???!?

Hypocrites.

There is some truth to this, marginal at best. No one should be surprised.
Its easy to be an arm chair quarter back.

My perspective on the matter is, we may be in too deep. Who is right or wrong is inapplicable at this stage for all practicle purposes.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I'M NOT THE ONE BITCHING ABOUT AMERICA BEING SO BAD. THATS WHY I DONT LEAVE. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR OPINION (AS YOU PREVIOUSLY STATED IT). HOWEVER, YOUR OPINION IS ALWAYS NEGATIVE WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO THAT OLD ADDAGE AGAIN. WHY ARE (WERE) YOU ANTI-AMERICAN? WHERE ELSE CAN YOU GO TO ENJOY THE FREEDOMS THAT YOU HAVE HERE. EVEN THOUGH IT IS KINDA FUCKED UP, I'M SURE ESLEWHERE IS WORSE.

2. AS FOR THE PROPAGANDA, I ONLY HAVE ONE THING TO SAY ABOUT THAT: DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE IRAQIS ARE NOT BEING EXPOSED TO PROPAGANDA ABOUT AMERICANS!!!???


KAYNE

muhahahahaha. I can fuck with your emotions on the drop of a hat. I think i've found a new hobby while i waste my life away on E.F.


Imagine you are an iraqi, you know full well about the deaths by sanctions and depleted uranium, but you have never, ever, heard of the gassing of the kurds. Then pretend you saw american media outlets (CNN, ABC, etc), where stories like the gassing of the kurds are pretty common. It would be a shock, no? going your whole life being in the dark about the bad things of your country. It is the same way here, in order to get a more thorough opinion, you have to read both sides of the issue. A person who has never been exposed to the Iraqi p.o.v. hasn't really viewed the issue in its entirety.

Actually, most of the 1st world is relatively free at this point (thank god).

I stated before, and i was honest, that i used to be indoctrinated with left wing propaganda which is generally designed to make USA out to be a repressor of the world at large. I was a heavy chomsky reader, and all the 1 sided info created a severe bias in me. but that ended over 7 months ago due to the fact that independent research on my part showed most of the info was 1 sided, i have become much more moderate.

2. Yes, thats why i said in my original post 'but what blatant propaganda that iraq shit is.', because it was obvious it was designed to incite rage and disgust over the enemy (the same way we in america use the treatment of women in afghanistan to incite rage in us against the afghanis). We are both (us & the iraqis) exposed to 1 sided propaganda designed to close our minds and make us hate the enemy. Which is why i looked at iraqi websites. You may think you know the mentality behind WW2, but until you look at everyones propaganda, then decide for yourself what is going on, you are just being mind fucked by the powers that be. In WW2, millions of allies thought they were the ones being attacked by an evil country with evil intentions, and the axis thought they were the ones being attacked by an evil country with evil intentions. If they had been exposed to each others media coverate, psychological battles for the minds of men, and biased viewpoints they would have had more informed, independent decisions.

I wish i could find some soviet cold war propaganda, that would be a nice read. Did you know that in China, about 60 years ago, it wasn't uncommon for family members to beat other family members to death if they were capitalist? here in america, you could have lost your job & life for being communist. I've been exposed to the capitalist propganda, so the communist propaganda should provide a counterbalance.

 

[dballer]

muhahahahaha. I can fuck with your emotions on the drop of a hat. I think i've found a new hobby while i waste my life away on E.F.


Imagine you are an iraqi, you know full well about the deaths by sanctions and depleted uranium, but you have never, ever, heard of the gassing of the kurds. Then pretend you saw american media outlets (CNN, ABC, etc), where stories like the gassing of the kurds are pretty common. It would be a shock, no? going your whole life being in the dark about the bad things of your country. It is the same way here, in order to get a more thorough opinion, you have to read both sides of the issue. A person who has never been exposed to the Iraqi p.o.v. hasn't really viewed the issue in its entirety.

Actually, most of the 1st world is relatively free at this point (thank god).

I stated before, and i was honest, that i used to be indoctrinated with left wing propaganda which is generally designed to make USA out to be a repressor of the world at large. I was a heavy chomsky reader, and all the 1 sided info created a severe bias in me. but that ended over 7 months ago due to the fact that independent research on my part showed most of the info was 1 sided, i have become much more moderate.

2. Yes, thats why i said in my original post 'but what blatant propaganda that iraq shit is.', because it was obvious it was designed to incite rage and disgust over the enemy (the same way we in america use the treatment of women in afghanistan to incite rage in us against the afghanis). We are both (us & the iraqis) exposed to 1 sided propaganda designed to close our minds and make us hate the enemy. Which is why i looked at iraqi websites. You may think you know the mentality behind WW2, but until you look at everyones propaganda, then decide for yourself what is going on, you are just being mind fucked by the powers that be. In WW2, millions of allies thought they were the ones being attacked by an evil country with evil intentions, and the axis thought they were the ones being attacked by an evil country with evil intentions. If they had been exposed to each others media coverate, psychological battles for the minds of men, and biased viewpoints they would have had more informed, independent decisions.

I wish i could find some soviet cold war propaganda, that would be a nice read. Did you know that in China, about 60 years ago, it wasn't uncommon for family members to beat other family members to death if they were capitalist? here in america, you could have lost your job & life for being communist. I've been exposed to the capitalist propganda, so the communist propaganda should provide a counterbalance.

BRAVO!!!!!

good post Nord.. this is what I am talking about.

you used to be left wing until you did a little research. I used to be conservative.. until I found out that they are doing nothing but scratching the belly of the beast. Don't get me wrong.. I am still sided with the right wing.. but I have come to despise marxits/communist with a passion.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Please post valid statistics indicating the total number of Iraqi child deaths caused by US led economic sanctions levied against Iraq after the conclusion of the Gulf War.

Bolix gave me a link to a Guardian newspaper article suggesting actual Iraqi child malnutrition deaths due to US imposed economic sanctions were less then previously estimated due to Iraqi Government embellishment of child malnutrition mortality rates to encourage global opposition to US led Iraqi economic sanctions.

So instead of 900,000 Iraqi child deaths, perhaps its something like 300,000 - 400,000 Iraqi child deaths. Whoop de doo.


The United States has played a large role in the genesis of this whole 'Iraq Problem'. So please spare me the blind US war rhetoric of defenders of justice and the free world. How was the US Government defending the free world when it stood idly by as their admitted ally, Saddam Huessien, gassed thousands of his own people with chemical and biological agents supplied to him by the US Government?

Was the brutal suppression of Iranian anti American sentiment even necessary to ensure short term US domestic national security objectives? Not even close.

The US just wanted to throw their fucking weight around and show the Arabs they wernt going to be fucked with. Justly or unjustly. And how many Iranians had to die under the Shaw so the American Government could courageously display its magnanimous will? More killed then in the Pentagon and WTC terrorist attacks. But who cares, right?! They're arabs!!

The US Government has and will continue to be purveyors of national dictatorships, tyrannical rulers, and terrorist factions just as long as it ensures its citizens the ability to wave their flags blindly and pat themselves on the back for being part of such a noble country. And sometimes their motivations arnt even that virtuous. Sometimes the US Government maliciously intervenes in foreign Government affairs, often at the expense of innocent foreign life, to send a message to foreign Governments not to fuck with US Corporate interests. pathetic.

US Government arrogance is going to get us all fucking killed.

how?

Propping up nondemocratically elected Pro American dictators in any country only polarizes nationalistic sentiment in the citizenry and national political opposition groups. Throw into the mix the religion card to unite the predominately Middle Eastern Muslim nations whom the American Government has maliciously meddled in the political affairs of, and you've got a real fucking problem.

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq.......


oh and heres an idea. Why don't we all unconditionally support the blood thirsty Israeli Jews in their conquest of the indigenous Israeli Palestinian population so we can further confirm the prevalent Muslim perception of Americans as biased, arrogant, glutenous war mongers who are incapable of compromise and developing an empathetic respect for foriegn cultures and religions.

Middle Eastern Muslim nations will eventually cooperativily retaliate against America and Israel because their affairs are being maliciously manipulated by an outside aggressor ( the US Government), and because the Koran, their BIBLE, admonishes them to attack any entity which threatens the integrity of their beleifs and way of life. Jihad. Holy War.


If the Soviets propped up an nondemocratically elected US President which served Soviet interests before your own needs, and the needs of your fellow country men, you wouldn't be calling for blood???!?

Hypocrites.

I agree with alot of what you said, every country manages to ignore the deaths of the enemy (in black hawk down, 1000 or so somalis died, but 18 americans died. No concern was or will be expressed for the somalis), but every country does that. In the Iran-Iraq war, i doubt iran gave a shit about iraq casualites, and i doubt iraq cared about iran casualities. People are generally nationalistically elitist. In the end, America is no more evil than most of the countries on earth.

The part about sanctions isn't really fair though. All Saddam has to do is let the U.N. prove to itself that he isn't trying to develop nuclear/chemical/biological weapons and the sanctions will be lifted. And he wont do it.

Also, the iraqis are allowed to import food & medicine under the oil for food program.

http://www.terrorismanswers.com/causes/iraq.html

Richard Garfield, a Columbia University professor who studies how economic sanctions affect public health, estimates that about 350,000 more Iraqi children under the age of five died in the 1990s than would have died without the U.N. sanctions in place. On the other hand, in northern Iraq, where the United Nations supervises the distribution of goods from the oil-for-food program, infant mortality rates have fallen below pre-Gulf War levels.


If you read that carefully, it states that, even under the sanctions, when the U.N. is responsible for distributing humanitarian aid the infant mortality rate stays level or goes down. When Iraq is responsible, it shoots up.

In the end, Saddam is responsible for this. he chooses not to do what it takes to remove the sanctions, and he chooses to squander/misuse humanitarian aid. In northern Iraq, where distibution of food & medicine is controlled by the U.N., infant mortality has gone down to pre-gulf war levels. several websites will confirm this fact.

 

[Spiral Traveller]

I say F**C all the dumb shit! It was Saudis that bombed the world trade center, so we should nuke MECCA! That would put a big hurt on those dune coons. We got to play their game: Hit things that means alot to the enemy. And they ARE the enemy.

 

[dballer]

I say F**C all the dumb shit! It was Saudis that bombed the world trade center! So we should nuke MECCA! That would put a big hurt on those camel-jacker bastards. We got to play their game: Hit things that means alot to the enemy. And they ARE the enemy.

I made that same quote once.. but then I asked myself why did they do it? I mean.. lets make sure it does not happen again?? You gotta ask why they did it..

 

[Spiral Traveller]

I made that same quote once.. but then I asked myself why did they do it? I mean.. lets make sure it does not happen again?? You gotta ask why they did it..

The stated reason for the killing of over three thousand civilians is ostensibly because we have troops in Saudi Arabia, and because we support Israel. Well, I'm sorry, neither of those constitute a gross injustice to me. (Hell, I'm glad we support Israel, and I think we should attack Saudi Arabia!) Even if they did, the terrorists, if they are sane at all, should have know that this sort of activity could never help them achieve their goals, which makes the attack an act of pure spite.

But that doesn't even matter, IMO. The deed is DONE. All we can do now is hit them back... and the more violent our counter-attack, the better!

 

[beefybull]

Do you really think your lives will change after the US invade Iraq ?........

Cheaper gas maybe, haha.

 

[buddy28]

There is some truth to this, marginal at best.

Please.

My perspective on the matter is, we may be in too deep. Who is right or wrong is inapplicable at this stage for all practicle purposes.

I agree. I think we are in too deep. But its important to place blame accordingly instead of perpetuating a biased, distorted account of world events that coincides with an individuals nationalistic ideology.

The truth is important. It changes people. As it stands right now, theres a whole lot of nationalistic propoganda being pushed in the States which is just taking us all closer to the brink.

It starts with the individual. A sincere empathetic respect for foreign peoples is going to save us. Love. How ironic, eh?

But its true. You beleive in God Minion?

 

[manny78]

Weak Logic? How is this weak logic amigo? You don't have respect for the US? Yeah it's not like we hold this world together or anything. China? Give me a break. Yeah, might be the largest active army. But how effective are 10 people on mountain bikes? Simply not a challenge. People really seem to forget, we ARE the most advanced and the MOST powerful military force on this planet. We will always come out on top. No offense to any other countries out there; this is just my great patriotic non logic talk.

Most advanced army in te world, best secret service and guess what: a bunch of dirty camels were able to kill more Americans than Saddam ever did. Not even Hitler has been able to strike the US territory.

So following your logic you shouldnt attack China cause they're a weak army but rather Iraq ? Are you trying to say Iraq is a greater threat ? Come on. Do a search.

China has at least 3 different kinds of intercontinental ballistic missile. One of them with a range of over 7000 miles. Enough to reach the US coast.

The core of the Chinese aviation is the Su-27 which is equal to the F-16 and even superior on many aspects. Also the improved Su-30 is now in service. They have modern battle tanks and many other things. And just to let you know: they dont care about caualties unlike your country. No Somalia syndrom so far......

 

[dballer]

The stated reason for the killing of over three thousand civilians is ostensibly because we have troops in Saudi Arabia, and because we support Israel. Well, I'm sorry, neither of those constitute a gross injustice to me. (Hell, I'm glad we support Israel, and I think we should attack Saudi Arabia!) Even if they did, the terrorists, if they are sane at all, should have know that this sort of activity could never help them achieve their goals, which makes the attack an act of pure spite.

But that doesn't even matter, IMO. The deed is DONE. All we can do now is hit them back... and the more violent our counter-attack, the better!

Damn!!

That was a well thought out responce. This sentance below pretty much sums up the strength of your argument. So profound.. you should go into contemplative logic with this.

"Even if they did, the terrorists, if they are sane at all, should have know that this sort of activity could never help them achieve their goals, which makes the attack an act of pure spite."

 

[buddy28]

In the end, America is no more evil than most of the countries on earth.

I agree. If America wasnt bent on global political and economic hegemony, another country wouldve stepped up and dominated. Probably using similar tactics employed by the US Government.

However, the US Government is leading us on a path to a global conflict, which is becoming increasingly unavertable as time continues. And that single fact is incredibly important. We need to understand the divisive values, morals, and norms we've adopted which have led us to this point - if we get a second chance. We need to learn from our mistakes if we're to avoid repeating history. Humanity hasn't learned how to *respect* each other. And sadly, the US Government, indirectly supported by its populace, is the major culpable party responsible for handing out alot of the disrespect thats been going round. Does nothing for ones karma....

Personally, I dont believe humanity is fatally condemned to succumbing to its own spiritual inadequacies. There is hope. But in order for me to sell the hope, the mistakes need to be pointed out so they can be understood and remedied. I acknowledge your point about humanity's seemingly inherent character flaws, but I don't want to give up hope yet ( not saying you do, just exp laing to u why Im harping on the issue).

In the end, Saddam is responsible for this. he chooses not to do what it takes to remove the sanctions, and he chooses to squander/misuse humanitarian aid. In northern Iraq, where distribution of food & medicine is controlled by the U.N., infant mortality has gone down to pre-gulf war levels. several websites will confirm this fact.

Good point. I agree 100%. However, the Iraqi populace represents a powerless change agent to their nations leadership. And that cant be stressed enough. What can the Iraqis do to overthrow Saddam? History has taught them any such rebellion will be met with brutal Government suppression probably employing the use of chemical and biological weapons.

Saddam has made terrible choices. But why are we entrusting the fate of the Iraqi populace to a single man weve known for sometime is a fucking loon?

GW Senior *choose* not to depose Saddam from power after the Gulf War. Clinton and his asshole Secretary of State, Albright, *choose* to endorse crippling economic sanctions against Iraq in favor of taking Saddam out.

Y?

Largely because taking Saddam out wouldve incurred significant US and allied military causalities. Probably in the range of 10,000 - 50,000 troops. So the US Government let Saddam have his way, knowing all the while, any possible Iraqi civilian attempt to install a representative ruling national party wouldve been quelled with chemical and biological weapons the US Government gave him. Doesnt give too much hope to the indigenous Iraqi population, does it?

To me, there was a glaring moral imperative incumbent on the United States Government to take out Saddam after the realization post Gulf War economic sanctions levied against Iraq would likely result in significant loss of innocent Iraqi life.

But this avenue was not chosen. Because we were too fucking brave.


[insert sardonic tone here]

Sweeeeett lannnnd of liberrrrrt-y.......*sniffle* *sniffle*

 

[Spiral Traveller]

....because taking Saddam out wouldve incurred significant US and allied military causalities. Probably in the range of 10,000 - 50,000 troops. ...

We will not lose thousands of lives. Saddam's troops surrendered by the hundreds of thousands last time -- and as their army has only gotten worse, why wouldnt they this time? Even if they fought to the last man -- and they won't -- his soldiers and command are not exactly crack troops as we found all throughout the gulf war. Their Republican Guard "special forces" aren't that special. They have no Air Force and no Navy. What is the friggin problem here? So what if other arab nations joined in, ALL OF THEM COMBINED CAN'T EVEN DEFEAT ISRAEL! I think some of you need to watch the History channel a little more often and realize that a lot has changed in the American military since WORLD WAR 2! Has the media brainwashed everybody into believing that those videos of Saddam's troops marching along (very flambuoyantly, I might add) mean that the Iraqi military is an imposing and mighty force? Wake up people, and have some faith in your tax dollars!


By the way, word is that this photo was taken at a recent military parade in Iraq. All I can say is HELL ON WHEELS! Beware the famous Iraqi wheeled infantry!

 

[buddy28]

We will not lose thousands of lives.

My comment was in reference to the US Government decision not to take out Saddam *after* US armed forces removed the Iraqi military presence from Kuwait during the Gulf War.

Just adds more credence to my argument. But I highly doubt any Iraqi urban conflict would result in insignificant US causalities. One of the defining features of ground war is the higher probability of troop causality rates. No smart bombs locking targets in at 100nm range. Man to man. Clearing houses out one by one. Using comparable weapons at similar ranges, as the enemy.

 

[gymnpoppa]

Iraq did nothing to us???? How many times have they said that as soon as they acquire nukes (weapons of mass destruction) that they won't hesitate to use them on America? Hell, Sadam killed his own people. And the bombing was appropriate. -You just can't have some maniac like Sadam taking over everything (oil, countries, etc.). Somebody's gotta keep the peace and some sanity in the world. - even if it means 'some' people dying.

Post a link to prove this. And as was noted, we supplied the bioweapons to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. Obviously post of the people who post here have not served in the military in the M East, nor have they even ventured out of the country unless it was on vacation.

There is a clear pattern of US involvement in the creation of most of the "evil" characters today. We funded, trained, and assisted bin Laden years ago, we sold anthrax, bioweapons, and other weapons to Iraq, when Bush (41) was president. Yet NONE of this administration has had the Balls to come forward and admit that our stupid, meddling has come with a price. As a matter of a fact, they continually bombard the public with Saddam is evil crap, yet fail to own up to dumbass, murderous, covert operations which started years ago, before most of you were even born.

And because none of you even know, or acknowledge this, you continously blame whoever the media puts forth as the "guilty"
party to the problem.

Why don't you do some reading, or research, or travel, and get a much better perspective on what's really going on, than the national media.

For those who do post objective sources, or opinions, this does not pertain to you, I don't need to detail names..............

Engage in some debate with older vets who might have served during those years, the Reagan years, Bush years, and Carter years. If you can't find anyone, do some research.

This and every adminstration since Vietnam is scared to actually put troops on the ground in heavy combat scenarios because of political reasons.

Extract, you correctly note that we have the best (technological) military, then why didn't we use our own people in Afghanistan? Did you take the time to ask that question?

I personally think that the radical fundamentalists would kick our ass on a level playing field. Which is what the silent opinion is in Washington as well.

and before you or anyone else ignorantly questions my patriotism, I put in my time in the military/M East.

 

[Prometheus]

First off, you're going to sit there and say that he isn't involved in ANY terrorist activity? You're a fucking tool. You want to bring up the past bro? You're going to say we didn't have to right to do what we did after Pearl Harbor? Fuck you and the rest that agree with you. I guess that's the difference between people like us. If this country was run by people like you there WOULDN'T even be a United States. Also I need to ask you, are you comparing Americans to Hilter and to the Japanese? I mean that's what it seems like to me. You're saying that the Palestenians had every right to be celebrating in the street when they killed thousands of Americans. I'm not the type of man that is going to sit in the middle of the fence. I'm for America and that is that. Anyone that doesn't like us IS against us. Plain and simple.

a "fucking tool"? well, can't say I expected any more from you, given the juvenile logic of your other posts and your apparent stupidity.

given your limited capacity, and for final clarification, I'll try one more time: RATIONALIZATION IS NOT JUSTIFICATION - to understand WHY someone does something is *NOT* the same as saying its CORRECT.

I compared Americans with Hitler? Another conclusion only a true imbecile could have reached from what I wrote. I compared PEOPLE with PEOPLE. All people celebrate the defeat of their enemies. These people regard America as the enemy. That's not good or preferable, but it is the situation.

you "argue" that bombing Iraqis is justified based on the US news media having played footage of Palestinians celebrating in the street. Ignoring that they are separate countries and that there is some evidence that the celebration occurred long before 9/11, you lump all muslims together and declare without thinking: "muslims are not with us, therefore they are against us" and therefore ostensibly deserve to be blown to bits and their country overthrown, whether or not they were involved in the attacks and whether or not they pose a viable threat. [Ironically, this group characterization of Muslims is from one who has thrown wailing hissyfits about discrimination and prejudice, when he himself is the subject.]

But you are a "good American," doing your best to validate world disdain, exercising what your feeble mind regards as "patriotism" by blindly adhering to the administration's propaganda, without thinking, without an evaluation of past governmental lies and deceit, without questioning all the pieces that just don't fit, without wondering about who REALLY stands to gain from this, what the real profit motives are. believe what you want. I won't comment further here.

 

[manny78]

Man to man. Clearing houses out one by one. Using comparable weapons at similar ranges, as the enemy.

reminds me the movie Black Hawk Down.....

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

Most advanced army in te world, best secret service and guess what: a bunch of dirty camels were able to kill more Americans than Saddam ever did. Not even Hitler has been able to strike the US territory.

So following your logic you shouldnt attack China cause they're a weak army but rather Iraq ? Are you trying to say Iraq is a greater threat ? Come on. Do a search.

China has at least 3 different kinds of intercontinental ballistic missile. One of them with a range of over 7000 miles. Enough to reach the US coast.

The core of the Chinese aviation is the Su-27 which is equal to the F-16 and even superior on many aspects. Also the improved Su-30 is now in service. They have modern battle tanks and many other things. And just to let you know: they dont care about caualties unlike your country. No Somalia syndrom so far......

ok

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

a "fucking tool"? well, can't say I expected any more from you, given the juvenile logic of your other posts and your apparent stupidity.

given your limited capacity, and for final clarification, I'll try one more time: RATIONALIZATION IS NOT JUSTIFICATION - to understand WHY someone does something is *NOT* the same as saying its CORRECT.

I compared Americans with Hitler? Another conclusion only a true imbecile could have reached from what I wrote. I compared PEOPLE with PEOPLE. All people celebrate the defeat of their enemies. These people regard America as the enemy. That's not good or preferable, but it is the situation.

you "argue" that bombing Iraqis is justified based on the US news media having played footage of Palestinians celebrating in the street. Ignoring that they are separate countries and that there is some evidence that the celebration occurred long before 9/11, you lump all muslims together and declare without thinking: "muslims are not with us, therefore they are against us" and therefore ostensibly deserve to be blown to bits and their country overthrown, whether or not they were involved in the attacks and whether or not they pose a viable threat. [Ironically, this group characterization of Muslims is from one who has thrown wailing hissyfits about discrimination and prejudice, when he himself is the subject.]

But you are a "good American," doing your best to validate world disdain, exercising what your feeble mind regards as "patriotism" by blindly adhering to the administration's propaganda, without thinking, without an evaluation of past governmental lies and deceit, without questioning all the pieces that just don't fit, without wondering about who REALLY stands to gain from this, what the real profit motives are. believe what you want. I won't comment further here.

Don't go putting words in my mouth. I can care less if they were Christians I would dislike them just as much. I lump all Muslims together? Don't fucking make me out to be a racist pig. You like to criticize my country like yours is so much greater or so much righteous? Or is that just my juvenile logic talking again? God damn it. I hate it when that happens. You know what...America is the best, that's why EVERYONE wants to come here. FUck off

 

[aurelius]

I hate it when that happens. You know what...America is the best, that's why EVERYONE wants to come here.

Not so fast...

Today I went to the beach, drank a beer, smoked some hash and watched as topless thong clad lovelies played in the surf.

I love this country.

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

lololol. Ok you got me on that lol. Look, I'm just a very very very fucking proud American. I really don't hate anyone. I just don't like people talking shit about this country when their country isn't much better

 

[Spiral Traveller]

...you "argue" that bombing Iraqis is justified based on the US news media having played footage of Palestinians celebrating in the street. Ignoring that they are separate countries and that there is some evidence that the celebration occurred long before 9/11

I hate to break it to you, but the dancing was -- without a shadow of a doubt -- right AFTER 9/11.

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/cnn.htm

At any rate, you must realize that we have been at war with Iraq for years, since we performed victory interruptus at the end of the Gulf War phase. Iraq has attempted to assassinate a former American president, broken the agreement to permit international inspectors, aided anti-American terrorists both internationally and within the United States, and called for anti-American jihad with monotonous regularity. The only question is whether or not we’re prepared to finally wage the war in such a way as to win it.

What the United States must do is depose Saddam Hussein and his regime, whether or not that requires a full-scale war or a small conflict requiring fewer than 100,000 American and allied troops (and there will be allies). It should be far less difficult than Desert Storm in 1991: Saddam has fewer troops, poorly armed. The U.S. will win easily and with few casualties. There will be tens of thousands of Iraqi surrenders and defections. No quagmire.

Yes, I know some of you may not believe me, but we're going to win, and afterwards we're going to remove the tyrannies in Iran and Syria, and either Saudi Arabia is going to change their policies — shutting down the radical schools and mosques — or we will have to go after them as well. Remember there are lots of overqualified unemployed Hashemites nowadays. You don't believe we will win because you haven't studied our history. If it were Europe you might be right; Europe is ready to surrender to anyone. They tried hard to surrender to the Soviet Union but it just didn't work out for them, poor things. But we are talking about America, and Americans love to fight and love to win.

In this war, the U.S. is like Israel: no matter how long its enemies wage a war of terror, the U.S. will not surrender, just as Israel won't. And maybe all the lefties and Europeans with weak hearts out there will realize that their only hope of protecting their civilization is fighting, not appeasing.

 

[KAYNE]

muhahahahaha. I can fuck with your emotions on the drop of a hat. I think i've found a new hobby while i waste my life away on E.F.

I DIDNT EVEN READ THE REST OF YOUR POST DUE TO THIS MORONIC STATEMENT. HOW DO YOU FIGURE THAT YOU ARE FUCKING WITH MY EMOTIONS? I DIDNT EVEN GET MAD AND THAT WASNT EVEN A FLAME. SO AGAIN I ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FUCKING WITH MY EMOTIONS.

BTW...THE ALL CAPS DOESNT DENOTE EMOTION TO ME IF THATS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING.


KAYNE

 

[buddy28]

Yet NONE of this administration has had the Balls to come forward and admit that our stupid, meddling has come with a price.

Thank you.

And because none of you even know, or acknowledge this, you continously blame whoever the media puts forth as the "guilty"
party to the problem.

Thank you.

Check out CNNs online website recently ( i dont own a tv)? "Target: Saddam". Boy o boy. The hollywoodization of war.

and before you or anyone else ignorantly questions my patriotism, I put in my time in the military/M East.

Coming from my limited life experience, thats heavy. Thanks for sharing that. (where have i been, eh?

 

[Lao Tzu]

I DIDNT EVEN READ THE REST OF YOUR POST DUE TO THIS MORONIC STATEMENT. HOW DO YOU FIGURE THAT YOU ARE FUCKING WITH MY EMOTIONS? I DIDNT EVEN GET MAD AND THAT WASNT EVEN A FLAME. SO AGAIN I ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FUCKING WITH MY EMOTIONS.

BTW...THE ALL CAPS DOESNT DENOTE EMOTION TO ME IF THATS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING.


KAYNE

oops, i did it again.

such a tool. After your brother gets out of jail, i think i'll give him a rock or two to tie you up & butt fuck you.

ciao.

 

[Lao Tzu]

heres a free tip, NVR2BIG. Don't go around bragging that you are from new orleans, it doesn't make you tough. When people think of L.A., they think of crips & bloods. When people think of Chicago they think of Al Capone. When people think of New Orleans they think of geeks with french accents & mardi gras.

'Don't fuck with me, i'm from the land of paper mache'

 

[minion]

Soory I had to go to bed. I'm in Japan so my time zone is off.

Looks like some good post on both sides of the argumjent.

 

[PURE EXTRACT]

Can't we all just get along

-Martin Lawrence

 

[Wombat]

I used tan at a place that was owned by an Iraqie chick----her and her whole family got the fuck out of their and came to the U.S.

I used to shoot the shit with her about Iraq-----she told me Hussian is a fucking asshole and most of the population hates him----their all just scared of him.....most would love to see a change.......

regardless of the propaganda our country spits out, the guy should be shot and forgot about...period---

 

[minion]

General Iraqi history

Iraq (ee RAHK) is an Arab republic in southwestern Asia which is slightly larger than California. The country is bordered to the north by Turkey, to the west by Syria and Jordan, to the south by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and the Persian Gulf, and to the east by Iran.

Ancient Mesopotamia, the "land between the waters," was located between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers of Iraq. It is part of the "Fertile Crescent" and has been called by anthropologists as the "Cradle of Civilization," possibly the site of the Garden of Eden. One of the first civilizations of the world, Sumer, evolved here more than 5,000 years ago. The first Sumerians are believed to have been immigrants from the highlands of Turkey and Iran. As the area developed, migrations and invasions became more common and influenced the cultural make-up of the region. By the mid-24th century B.C., the Sumerians were overrun by the Akkadians and thus began the rising and falling of a long series of empires in the area. With the spread of iron new weapons of war were developed and the Kingdom of Ashur--or Assyrian, as it is usually called-from the northern part of this region began dominating its neighbors. After the Assyrians fell in the seventh century B.C. the Babylonians reestablished their empire in the region and they were followed by the Medes, Persians, Greeks, and Romans.

Following the seventh century A.D., Islam became entrenched in what is now Iraq. Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate (Islamic Empire), was the leading city of the world for five centuries and was the acknowledged leader of the Arab and Muslim world. In 1258 Baghdad was devastated by the Mongols and was later occupied by the Ottoman Turks. After World War I, the Turks were driven from the area by the British. Britain then created a mandate from three former Ottoman provinces and called this new country Al Iraq (the origin), the name formerly applied to only the southern region of the province of Basra. In 1932, Britain gave independence to this mandate and Iraq became a sovereign, independent state. However, Britain still maintained troops in Iraq and greatly influenced the government.

In 1933, Iraq's King Feisal died. His death coincided with political unrest and dissatisfaction with the government. In 1936, Iraq experienced its first attempted coup d'etat and between 1936 and 1941 there were six more abortive coup attempts. All of these attempted coups were motivated by personal goals rather than political issues. In January 1943, pro-British Iraq declared war on the World War II Axis powers (Germany, Italy, and Japan) under the terms of a treaty with Britain. In 1945 Iraq became a founding member of the League of Arab States. Postwar Iraq, however, did not regain the stature it enjoyed in the pre-World War II Arab world. After joining the United Nations (UN) in December 1945, Iraq bitterly opposed the UN partition of Palestine and in 1948 entered the war against Israel.

In 1958 King Faisal II of Iraq was executed in a coup by army officers. The leaders of the new regime declared their nation a republic committed to a foreign policy of nonalignment. Iraq's foreign policy, however, moved from a pro-West stance to one of friendly relations with the communist powers. Relations with the US were severed in 1967 after the US provided aid to Israel in the Six Day War.

The Iraqi Baath (Resurgence) Party came to power through a coup in 1968 and Saddam Hussein became the number two man in the regime. By 1976 Hussein had in reality become the power in the regime and in 1979 he took complete control. The Baath regime closely parallels those that have existed since the overthrow of King Feisal II in 1958. The Government is controlled by Sunni Arab military elements who have succeeded in avoiding commitments to a political union with other Arab states. Hussein's Baath Party dominates both military and civilian communities.

During the 1960s and 1970s Iraq had become increasingly more dependent on the former Soviet Union for military assistance. However, after the Soviets reneged on some military aid deals and provided inferior replacement equipment for war losses, the Iraqis began to improve relations with the West and decrease their dependence on the Soviets. During the late 1970s several border clashes with Iran increased tensions between the two countries. In 1979 Saddam Hussein expelled the Ayatollah Khomeini from Iraq, where he had been in exile since 1961. Removed from the seat of Shiite learning in Iraq, Khomeini vowed he would have Hussein's head brought to him on a platter. In February 1980 the Shah's caretaker's government fell and Khomeini returned to Iran via France vowing to spread the Islamic Revolution to the whole world. In September 1980, before Khomeini could consolidate his power, Iraq invaded Iran and the two countries were locked in war until September 1988, when a cease fire was agreed to, but no peace settlement has yet been achieved.

In August 1990 Iraqi troops occupied Kuwait. The United Nations passed 12 resolutions and urged Iraq to leave Kuwait by 15 January 1991, but to no avail. United States and multi-national forces were rushed into Saudi-Arabia in response to an urgent call from the rulers of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. On 16 January 1991 the Gulf War started with thousands of bombing raids in an effort to evict Saddam Hussein and his Iraqi forces from Kuwait. On 23 February 1991 the ground war started; it ended in a US and multi-national forces victory after 100 hours fighting by ground forces. Kuwait was liberated and fighting erupted between Iraqi troops and Shiite and Kurd rebels.

 

[KAYNE]

heres a free tip, NVR2BIG. Don't go around bragging that you are from new orleans, it doesn't make you tough. When people think of L.A., they think of crips & bloods. When people think of Chicago they think of Al Capone. When people think of New Orleans they think of geeks with french accents & mardi gras.

'Don't fuck with me, i'm from the land of paper mache'

I'M GLAD YOU ARE DEVOTING LOTS OF TIME TO LITTLE OLE ME SEARCHING FOR PREVIOUS POSTS FROM THE LAST 2 YEARS. YOU MAKE ME FEEL IMPORTANT IN YOUR LIFE. DO YOU WANT TO SUCK MY DICK??? WHY ELSE WOULD YOU BE SO WORRIED ABOUT ME??? YOU MUST WANT TO GIVE ME FELLATIO. THAT FLATTERS ME BUT I GO TO BAT FOR THE OTHER TEAM, NOT YOURS.

ANYWAY, I DONT BRAG ABOUT SHIT. I DONT THINK I'M TOUGH CUZ I'M FROM NEW ORLEANS. I HATE THIS CITY. HOWEVER, SOMETHING MUST BE FUCKED UP ABOUT IT IF IT HAD THE HIGHEST MURDER RATE IN THE COUNTRY. MORE THAN THE CITIES YOU MENTIONED. THATS ONE OF THE REASONS I HATE IT SO MUCH IS CUZ OF THE CRIME.

NOW GO BACK TO SURFING THE NET ON THE WEEKEND COMPUTER COWBOY. I AM GOING OUT TONIGHT TO HAVE SOME FUN. LET ME KNOW IF YOU FIND ANYMORE INTERESTING POSTS FROM ME. LITTLE PUKES LIKE YOU WHO THINK YOU ARE SO TOUGH BUT IN REAL LIFE ARENT SHIT. AND DONT THINK YOU ARE PLAYING WITH MY EMOTIONS, I'M JUST TELLING YOU LIKE IT IS. HAVE FUN SEARCHING FOR POSTS.


YOUR HERO
KAYNE

 

[spongebob]

ha ha, true. If we were Sadam or someone as equally evil, then we could do that.

I am all for the U.S. to start drilling in untapped areas here at home, but unfortunately we have too many "pollitically correct enviromentalist tree-huggers" that stand in the way. I understand some of their concerns, but some of it is way overboard.

im just making a total guess here, but it could have something to do with our strategic oil reserves policy. whatever that is.

there is only so much oil left, and if you look at our imports id almost bet that the percentages correlate to the amount of proven crude oil reserves for any given area. or somewhat close to correlating. the theory being that if we use up oil in any one location i.e. the U.S. then eventually 40 to 50 years from now there will still be an abundance of oil in hotspots around the world i.e. saudi arabia(which has 2/3 of the worlds proven crude oil reserves) then you will see extreme demand for "thier" oil. and what kind of mess do you think we would be in then? this is just a thought.

 

[spongebob]

as for dancing in the streets -- do a web search on VJ-Day - there are pictures of thousands of Americans dancing in the streets, confetti and flags flying, in celebration of the vaporization of 150,000 Japanese civilians. Just as the English celebrated when Hitler fell. And the East Germans danced when the Wall came down, and rightly so.

this is my thoughts and i could be wrong. the difference between americans (and the english) dancing in the streets after VJ day and the defeat of hitler and the dancing in the streets by arabs and other nationalities is that the US and england were dancing because they were GLAD THE WAR WAS OVER not the fact that 150000 japanese were vaporized. they wanted to return to what normal human beings want to do, live thier lives unobstructed and without the constant threat of warfare. when you see arabs dancing in the street after 9-11, they are doing so strictly out of hate. maybe you dont agree but i think there is a difference.

 

[spongebob]

There is a clear pattern of US involvement in the creation of most of the "evil" characters today. We funded, trained, and assisted bin Laden years ago, we sold anthrax, bioweapons, and other weapons to Iraq, when Bush (41) was president. Yet NONE of this administration has had the Balls to come forward and admit that our stupid, meddling has come with a price. As a matter of a fact, they continually bombard the public with Saddam is evil crap, yet fail to own up to dumbass, murderous, covert operations which started years ago, before most of you were even born.

you are right gym and these type of situations are called blowback. but it doesn't just happen internationally. we trained lee harvey oswald, timothy mcveiw, and others probably not so well known. im sure noone expected osama to suddenly get pissed because we had troops station in saudi during the gulf war. we were given permission by saudi to do just that. who is this osama? he's no authority figure in saudi, he has no say so there. he's been thrown out. but because he thinks we are infadels occuping the holy land we should change our foriegn policy, ofcourse not. in the future do we limit our involvement in forgien lands and curtail our forgein policy based on the fact that we may have blowback one day. i dont believe so.

 

[minion]

you are right gym and these type of situations are called blowback. but it doesn't just happen internationally. we trained lee harvey oswald, timothy mcveiw, and others probably not so well known. im sure noone expected osama to suddenly get pissed because we had troops station in saudi during the gulf war. we were given permission by saudi to do just that. who is this osama? he's no authority figure in saudi, he has no say so there. he's been thrown out. but because he thinks we are infadels occuping the holy land we should change our foriegn policy, ofcourse not. in the future do we limit our involvement in forgien lands and curtail our forgein policy based on the fact that we may have blowback one day. i dont believe so.

Good post, if I was the type to give karma I would.

 

[buddy28]

we were given permission by saudi to do just that. who is this osama? he's no authority figure in saudi, he has no say so there. he's been thrown out. but because he thinks we are infadels occuping the holy land we should change our foriegn policy, ofcourse not. in the future do we limit our involvement in forgien lands and curtail our forgein policy based on the fact that we may have blowback one day. i dont believe so.

thats stretching it sponge. The Saudi Monarchy gave permission for US armed forces to occupy military bases in Saudi Arabia. True.

However, the ruling Saudi Monarchy is unrepresentative of the domestic populace, who only occupy a position of leadership largely because of their reliance on US economic and political 'assistence'. So theyre really no authority on the matter either.

The recent massive anti US demonstrations in Saudi Arabia, coupled with the surge in Saudi Monarchy financial support of Islamic extremist sects to prevent the overthrow of the unstable Saudi Monarchy, attest to the fact a significant portion of Saudi citizens want the US to leave Saudi Arabia.


Whats the global champion of human rights and freedoms doing supporting a corrupt undemocratic regime with a dismal human rights record anyway?

 

[buddy28]

. in the future do we limit our involvement in forgien lands and curtail our forgein policy based on the fact that we may have blowback one day. i dont believe so.

Everyone else takes a backseat to American interests, huh?


Sponge, in case you havent noticed, that ethnocentric philosphy used to guide US foreign policy formation is the exact reason why America got itself into this mess in the first place.

Just keep on hitting urselves in the foot.

 

[minion]

Everyone else takes a backseat to American interests, huh?

As an American I think this is fair. I would expect all other countries to do the same, it would be in their "best interest".

 

[buddy28]

As an American I think this is fair. I would expect all other countries to do the same, it would be in their "best interest".

Actually, it wouldn't be in *their* best interest. It would be in *Americas* best interest. So please, don't conflate the two. You make yourself to sound more magnanimous than you really are.

I honestly cant respect your position at all Minion. That philosophy is leading us on a path to war, which is seemingly what you want.

 

[minion]

Actually, it wouldn't be in *their* best interest. It would be in *Americas* best interest. So please, don't conflate the two. You make yourself to sound more magnanimous than you really are.

I honestly cant respect your position at all Minion. That philosophy is leading us on a path to war, which is seemingly what you want.

My writing style isn't to sound "magnanimous". Or honorable, nobel or to sound pompous. I keep it to the point as not to loose the essence of my point.

This isn't a matter of philosphy. Its reality. Philosophically by design many phenomena should or should not function or exist.
When adversity rushes in on you there is no time for philosophy only strategy.

From what I read inbetween your lines I agree to some extent. There needs to be a paradigm shift an elevation of human conscience. Perhaps if we survive as a species one day we will have a utopian society. Until that day.

For the present the gods of war have spoken, "kill or be killed".

I pray it can be worked out peacefully. Sometimes prayers go unanswered.

 

[aurelius]

lololol. Ok you got me on that lol. Look, I'm just a very very very fucking proud American. I really don't hate anyone. I just don't like people talking shit about this country when their country isn't much better

No problem. I think the US, in general, is a great place to live. But that doesn´t mean you can´t be extra critical when examining it.(much more difficult to do that in Saudi Arabia)

You see, personally I hold the US (or Western Democracies) to a higher standard. When dictatorships commit atrocities what can you say, what do you expect? That´s all.

 

[aurelius]

As an American I think this is fair. I would expect all other countries to do the same, it would be in their "best interest".

What´s in your best interest today might not be tomorrow.

 

[buddy28]

When adversity rushes in on you there is no time for philosophy only strategy.

This is part of the problem. America isnt the victim. America has let itself be victimized by its own drunken sense immortality, which is now coming back to haunt the nation.

I agree. Theres no room for philosephey when events, issues and policies are seen as a disjointed series of unrelated happenings. But history has shown this repeatedly to be false.

The fatalistic attitude we adopt today will condemn the chances of our princibles guiding decisions of tomorrow.

From what I read inbetween your lines I agree to some extent. There needs to be a paradigm shift an elevation of human conscience. Perhaps if we survive as a species one day we will have a utopian society. Until that day.

For the present the gods of war have spoken, "kill or be killed".

I pray it can be worked out peacefully. Sometimes prayers go unanswered.

I agree. Its probably going to take Gods help to get us out of this. However, the paradigm shift we chose to embrace, either having divine orgins or not, must manifest itself beginging in the individual.

 

[minion]

What´s in your best interest today might not be tomorrow.

Unless your omnipresent, which no one is.
Welcome to the human condition.

 

[minion]

This is part of the problem. America isnt the victim. America has let itself be victimized by its own drunken sense immortality, which is now coming back to haunt the nation.

I agree. Theres no room for philosephey when events, issues and policies are seen as a disjointed series of unrelated happenings. But history has shown this repeatedly to be false.

The fatalistic attitude we adopt today will condemn the chances of our princibles guiding the decisions of tomorrow.

I agree. Its probably going to take Gods help to get us out of this. However, the paradigm shift we chose to embrace, either having divine orgins or not, must manifest itself beginging in the individual.

Alright, allow me to try a different approach.
Have you seen the movie Seven? (Morgan Freeman, Brad Pitt)
If you have seen the movie to the end? What would you have done in detective David Mills shoes?

This thread is essentially about a paradox. "The paradox that standing is more tiring than walking."

 

[aurelius]

Unless your omnipresent, which no one is.
Welcome to the human condition.

I don´t believe that all repercussions from a given policy decision are unforseeable, as the above reply appears to say.

 

[buddy28]

Minion,

Likening David Mills act of vengeance to Americas loss on sept 11th cannot be compared because the circumstances which surround the losses of both parties are different.

David Mills never provoked the serial killer to murder his wife. America has provocated and played the role of antagonizer in Muslim countries over the past several decades which significantly influenced the development of extreme anti American sentiment while providing motivation for Islamic terrorists to carry out sept 11th attacks.


David Mills was blameless for his wifes death. Therefore, exacting retribution for his wifes death was justified under moral law. The American Government, to a large degree, is to blame for the sept 11th attacks by maliciously manipulating the affairs of sovereign Muslim states, often resulting in death of innocent Muslim civilian life. Therefore, the US Government is in no position to don the cloak of moral indigence when its condoned, approved, and financed the very activities it now claims to abhor when exacted on itself. Its called hypocrisy.

Ironically, David Mills gets taking away in the cop car at the end of the movie.

There are repercussions to the actions we take. We're not animals. We have the choice to exercise restraint or not. America is not the victim. Your conveniently looking at history through a fragmented paradigm which considers events only recent enough to pull no relationship between historical US foreign policy and the gestation and widespread adoption of militant Islamic sects.

 

[spongebob]

Everyone else takes a backseat to American interests, huh?


Sponge, in case you havent noticed, that ethnocentric philosphy used to guide US foreign policy formation is the exact reason why America got itself into this mess in the first place.

Just keep on hitting urselves in the foot.

im not saying that. i said we should conduct our foreign policy accordingly(in the interest of the US and foreign countries together) without taking into consideration that some madman may not agree with it.

again your comment about just keep on hitting yourselfs in the foot is irrelevant here. we do not change our policies acorrding to what madmen want. there is always going to be a price to pay for our involvement around the world. thats the arguement, should we start to limit our involvement? if we did would we have another hitler? he was left alone untill it was too late.