Rogue , actually were saying if your not using gear stick to working hard,creatin, efa's, and lots of good protein (isopure, myoplex, n-large)Sometime you just want to beleive so bad that something will do what it promised, but the PH supps are worthless and COST MORE THAN MOST GEAR! Like Nelson said you get almost all the sides w/ littlle-no benifits -listen to these guys!