need a back excercise

[halfaclue]

OK I changed my HST program around and I'm doing 3 sets of squats followed by 2 sets of dead lifts and then i go to do back..I tried doing 3 sets of 5 of pullups but my 260lb fat ass could only do 5-5-4 so obviously i can not add any weight yet. Should I go back to do lat pull downs as my main movement?
My new gym doesn;'t have the weight assisted machines

 

[cmdubs]

yeah I'd go with the pulldowns

 

[JohnnyCoho]

OK I changed my HST program around and I'm doing 3 sets of squats followed by 2 sets of dead lifts and then i go to do back..I tried doing 3 sets of 5 of pullups but my 260lb fat ass could only do 5-5-4 so obviously i can not add any weight yet. Should I go back to do lat pull downs as my main movement?
My new gym doesn;'t have the weight assisted machines

Gotaclue, how goes it Bro?

Yer in your 5's,...stick with the pull-ups!! 5-5-5 will come and then ya do negs with weight after your 5's. If your not feeling your getting a desired effect then maybe after your last pullup go imediately to Lat Pulls without letting your body rest, and with a lighter weight, for a couple of 15 rep drop sets.

 

[halfaclue]

Gotaclue, how goes it Bro?

Yer in your 5's,...stick with the pull-ups!! 5-5-5 will come and then ya do negs with weight after your 5's. If your not feeling your getting a desired effect then maybe after your last pullup go imediately to Lat Pulls without letting your body rest, and with a lighter weight, for a couple of 15 rep drop sets.

I was concerned with sticking to pull ups for 2 reasons.
Lifting to failure.
progressive load.

I wasn't even going to do 5's this time and was going to go back to another set of 10's but I was feeling pretty healthy after the 8's with no real injuires so I decided to go for it. I definitely went lighter on DL then I normally would but I liked doing them right after squats

 

[JohnnyCoho]

I was concerned with sticking to pull ups for 2 reasons.
Lifting to failure.
progressive load.

I wasn't even going to do 5's this time and was going to go back to another set of 10's but I was feeling pretty healthy after the 8's with no real injuires so I decided to go for it. I definitely went lighter on DL then I normally would but I liked doing them right after squats

Your body should adjust quickly, especially being assisted, and results will show! As far as progressive load goes (reason for Lat Pull Dropsets) Up the weight each time ya go to the drop sets. Negs on Pull Ups are awesome, when ya get there!!

Do ya find yourself more fatigued from the Deads after Squats? Are your currenty goals more back or leg development?

 

[Madcow2]

You are following a set protocol - HST. It's success requires that you stick to the volume/intensity pattern. With you current weight, you can't do that and you will do more harm than good. I don't think pulldowns are nearly as good as chins or pullups (the weight assisted machine is not a substitute as your feet are fixed and the linearity of the movement is far easier to control). That said, you have no other option and getting assistance, using negatives, and training to failure (all of which should be drastically avoided on any type of consistent basis) will cause problems in the program. Your only opion is to swap for a pulldown. Plenty of bigger guys have to do it so it's not like you are alone.

 

[JohnnyCoho]

You are following a set protocol - HST. It's success requires that you stick to the volume/intensity pattern. With you current weight, you can't do that and you will do more harm than good. I don't think pulldowns are nearly as good as chins or pullups (the weight assisted machine is not a substitute as your feet are fixed and the linearity of the movement is far easier to control). That said, you have no other option and getting assistance, using negatives, and training to failure (all of which should be drastically avoided on any type of consistent basis) will cause problems in the program. Your only opion is to swap for a pulldown. Plenty of bigger guys have to do it so it's not like you are alone.

Madcow,
halfaclue is AAS assisted & definately "has-a-clue"...and knows his body well!! I truly respect the fact that he is actually using HST to train for an up-coming comp.

That said, I totally agree with you on lat pull-downs as not being a substitute for Chins & Pull-ups and the reason I suggested not going to failure on pull-ups but still doing them and going directly to a drop-set set up on Lat Pulls. Also true, one should not train to failure while on HST seems to be the protocall; but AAS Assisted? (only halfaclue has a clue there, there's no protocall for HST while on) Negatives are part of many HST routines and are usually incorporated before ones strategic deconditioning period and have personally worked wonders for me. Cant even imagine what they'd do for me if I was AAS assisted.

You are definately very knowledgeable and it shows!! "K" to ya Bro!

 

[H_T_]

you could do pull-ups with sets of 5 till you reach a total of 50, after a while it will take you less sets to get there.

 

[Madcow2]

Definitely not an HST guru but there are a lot of other ways, and I think better ways, to utilize the added work capacity and recovery provided by gear in a dual factor type program. Volume can be increased. Frequency can be increased - both of these can be adjusted fairly easily in either direction should you take it too far. if you know yourself and your lifts well you could alter the intensity protocol week to week but, I'd be hesitant on this one and this is where negatives and failure come in - it screws up the wave pattern pretty fiercely. In this case it would be just a single exercise and not a tremendously stressful one on the system but applying this accross the board is like a hard onshore wind blowing over a clean groundswell - from the beach it all looks like chop and the waves are no longer clearly defined nor as predictable.

You might want to post a question to this effect on Meso's training board. Some of the most knowledgable people you will get and several are very familiar with HST. I'm sure this question has been asked before and even if not directly in relation to HST (and I've seen it asked in relation to HST I believe) most good programs (dual factor) work under similar protocol so there will be a fair amount of commonality. That's what I would do. I don't know enough about HST to make a blanket recommendation but I'd lean strongly away from altering intensity by using negatives, drop sets, and training to failure. These are big wrenches to throw in and although they might yeild some gains it might be offset by a compromise of the program itself where you don't get the maximal gains on the back end.

It's something I'd seriously look into. These are good programs and simiularly to tuning a machine of some kind there might be one dial that is best left untouched or only barely touched at the end after you've finished with the other main ones.

 

[halfaclue]

JC and madcow..good points and thanks for the advice...since I can do 2 sets of pull ups maybe I'll change to 2 sets instead of 3 and then do a set of lat pulls???

JC beacuse I am traing for the show I kind of have to put everything as equal for now. After this summer when I've posed and been down to 5% BF then it will eb much easier to find what areas need work.