Natural vs. chemically assisted

[Nightwing]

Here is a hypothetical scenario.
Imagine there is Bill and Billy. They both are 25 yrs. old and currently have the exact same stats,DNA, lifts, and they love training. And they both have the same diet and the same training intensity.

At the age of 25, Bill starts juicing.

At the same time, Billy keeps working towards his genetic potential.

Of course Bill will quickly surpass Billy.

But then Billy starts juicing at 30 yrs of age.

By the time they are both 35 yrs. old, will they be the same size and have the same strength? Billy has only been juicing for 5 while Bill has been for 10 yrs. But Billy had waited until he filled out his genetic potential till he started aas.

So by 35 yrs. of age, who would be bigger and stronger? Bill or Billy?

 

[slimjim1985]

clear winner jacob

 

[Nightwing]

Let's use Kai Greene as an example.
I think he is 35 yrs. old. He got his natural pro card at maybe 19 then he got his IFBB pro card when he was like 29 yrs. old. Somewhere between his natural pro card and his IFBB card, he started the gear.

Let's say he started the gear at 25. He got 5th at this year's Olympia. HOWEVER, if he had started the gear before 25, let's say, 21, or dare we say 18?, EVERYTHING else being the same, could he still have been 5th place at this year's Olympia? Or would he have been even bigger? Or maybe even winning the show?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Bill may be bigger. But if they both went off completely, Billy would be bigger.

 

[thebigoz]

Bill has smaller balls.

 

[Peanutz26]

Bill may be bigger. But if they both went off completely, Billy would be bigger.

I have to agree with you on this. Not that I dont agree with you on ather things...

 

[ArmaniAK47]

Why are we making this a bigger deal than it is....
Properly used- NOT abused Steroids will allow you to train more frequently, recover faster, encourage strength and skill gain...

Digging through some medical literature and talking to my sister, a registered nutritionist, I've learned that naturally a human being (at best, young male) can only assimilate one to 1.5 grams of protein per Kilogram.
Steroids will allow you to assimilate more protein and better utilize protein.. While increasing levels of HGH and IGF-1 in your system.

The steroid user, if he didn't go ape shit with it, would clearly have the edge on the natural counterpart..

The real question for steroid use is this:

Am I just a casual lifter, or do I want to be pretty serious about this?
How important is the "natural" idea to you? -I personally think the sport itself is unnatural.. so why not use excess testosterone? just like protein powder to me..

If you use steroids and then aren't proud of your gains because of some twisted concept of being natural... don't use them... I am just as proud or more utilizing the tool that is steroids.

Your diet, training and rest must be 98% perfect before you use steroids-- Don't cheat yourself...

And finally, again, don't get redictulous with the dosages.... this is where the bad side effects and health problems usually come from.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Why are we making this a bigger deal than it is....
Properly used- NOT abused Steroids will allow you to train more frequently, recover faster, encourage strength and skill gain...

Digging through some medical literature and talking to my sister, a registered nutritionist, I've learned that naturally a human being (at best, young male) can only assimilate one to 1.5 grams of protein per Kilogram.
Steroids will allow you to assimilate more protein and better utilize protein.. While increasing levels of HGH and IGF-1 in your system.

The steroid user, if he didn't go ape shit with it, would clearly have the edge on the natural counterpart..

The real question for steroid use is this:

Am I just a casual lifter, or do I want to be pretty serious about this?
How important is the "natural" idea to you? -I personally think the sport itself is unnatural.. so why not use excess testosterone? just like protein powder to me..

If you use steroids and then aren't proud of your gains because of some twisted concept of being natural... don't use them... I am just as proud or more utilizing the tool that is steroids.

Your diet, training and rest must be 98% perfect before you use steroids-- Don't cheat yourself...

And finally, again, don't get redictulous with the dosages.... this is where the bad side effects and health problems usually come from.

I don't think the original post was about the ethics of drugs -- just what would be better in the long run in a side by side comparison. Good question.

 

[ArmaniAK47]

I was speaking 'ethics' and such because I thought that may have also had something to do with the decision..

I also stated that properly used the steroid user would be way ahead, and why to use steroids...thanks...

 

[sharkmaster]

bill would be ahead... I know guys who started juicing and made big gains and kept the majority of them or even continued to gain even after quitting for a few of years. They are still bigger and stronger than they would have been had they not.

 

[Nelson Montana]

bill would be ahead... I know guys who started juicing and made big gains and kept the majority of them or even continued to gain even after quitting for a few of years. They are still bigger and stronger than they would have been had they not.

But even with steroids, you can only get so big. And if you rely on them too soon, you'll never reach your natural genetic limit. It' s unlikely someone would use steroids for years and then stop and make gains naturally.

 

[sharkmaster]

I would agree with that if they had used large quantaties past they're gnetic limit that they would loose size and strength afterwards, but even still dont you think the retention of gains would keep them ahead of someone who had never reached the the level they had? The guys I know arent heavy users but have always kept the greater portion of theyre gains.

 

[sharkmaster]

I should add that using so much that your natural test production gets shot would be another story and lead to a very large loss when going back natty. In that case yeah the long time user would loose.

 

[Nelson Montana]

But even with steroids, you can only get so big. And if you rely on them too soon, you'll never reach your natural genetic limit. It' s unlikely someone would use steroids for years and then stop and make gains naturally.

Having said that, I think someone who did infrequent short cycles would be the biggest gainer of all in the long run.

 

[HugeLifter]

Here is a hypothetical scenario.
Imagine there is Bill and Billy. They both are 25 yrs. old and currently have the exact same stats,DNA, lifts, and they love training. And they both have the same diet and the same training intensity.

At the age of 25, Bill starts juicing.

At the same time, Billy keeps working towards his genetic potential.

Of course Bill will quickly surpass Billy.

But then Billy starts juicing at 30 yrs of age.

By the time they are both 35 yrs. old, will they be the same size and have the same strength? Billy has only been juicing for 5 while Bill has been for 10 yrs. But Billy had waited until he filled out his genetic potential till he started aas.

So by 35 yrs. of age, who would be bigger and stronger? Bill or Billy?

You are looking for a black and white answer, and people are giving their opinions, but IMO there is no good way to tell.

The general assumption is that the longer you wait the better, but the fact is that there are many variables. Remember that AAS generally increases motivation and intensity. Can Bill and Billy really keep the same intensity even though only one of them is on AAS?

Taking AAS is a personal choice. IMO the decision to take the plunge should be based on close monitoring of one's body and gains.

 

[Nelson Montana]

You are looking for a black and white answer, and people are giving their opinions, but IMO there is no good way to tell.

The general assumption is that the longer you wait the better, but the fact is that there are many variables. Remember that AAS generally increases motivation and intensity. Can Bill and Billy really keep the same intensity even though only one of them is on AAS?

Taking AAS is a personal choice. IMO the decision to take the plunge should be based on close monitoring of one's body and gains.

I disagree. In all the years I've been doing this I've found that the motivation gained from using steroids is quickly lost -- especially if started too soon. The guys who last the longest are the ones who train for the love of training.

 

[HugeLifter]

I disagree. In all the years I've been doing this I've found that the motivation gained from using steroids is quickly lost -- especially if started too soon. The guys who last the longest are the ones who train for the love of training.

I didn't mean to use motivation as my main argument. My point is that there are many factors and it is best to know your body and measure your progress.

Taking steroids is a personal choice and it is best to take everything into account before taking the plunge.

The hypothetical scenario that was given is pointless IMHO.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I didn't mean to use motivation as my main argument. My point is that there are many factors and it is best to know your body and measure your progress.

Taking steroids is a personal choice and it is best to take everything into account before taking the plunge.

The hypothetical scenario that was given is pointless IMHO.

The question had nothing to do with personal choice.

I think it was an excellent question.

 

[sharkmaster]

Having said that, I think someone who did infrequent short cycles would be the biggest gainer of all in the long run.

I agree with this.