My training partner doesn't like CLEANS

[Gladiola]

I recently learned cleans (from a friend who's a comeptitive rower) & I like the explosive movement.

My training partner is a cyclist (not competing yet, but wants to), so I thought the power training for lower body would benefit him in powering his butt up hills on his bike. He's been wanting variety in leg training anyway.

He said he just doesn't like flipping the bar (I think it made him nervous/uncomfortable) & doesn't see the reason for flipping the bar. (I told him if he doesn't flip it then he's accelerating it with no where to take it to!). He also doesn't feel it in his legs a lot.

His form seemed good to me. Any tips I can give him? I suppose I also want to be sure that it's worth it to keep trying them & see if he can get more comfortable with it. I think it is, but I don't have a lot of knowledge on this movement (or on OL/PL in general!)
Thanks

 

[spatts]

BUMP

 

[BigArnie]

Cleans are very beneficial to virtually any athlete. For a cyclist, however, I would say that it would depend on if he is a long distance endurance cyclist or a track sprinter. If the former is true, I would suggest that there may be better ways of spending his time in the gym. If the latter, you just have to look at almost all competitive sprinters (both on bicycle and runners) who incorporate some cleans into their workout as it is one of the best explosive strength builders around.

 

[ballast]

If he doesn't rack the bar, the movement is simply a high pull, which is still beneficial to the pulling muscles as an explosive movement is still required.You can still do your cleans and your partner can do the high pulls.

 

[CytoMel]

You could reccommend box squats to your friend instead of cleans. Box squats are better for getting powerfull legs and you can do them explosively with chains and bands too. I dont know why non-olympic lifters would want to do cleans much anyways when there are much better lower body stuff like box squats, GM's, deadlifts etc

 

[b fold the truth]

I love clean and jerks...I think that any athlete could benefit from them. It takes explosiveness, technique, skill, speed, and involves nearly every muscle in the body. I would not consider it a leg movement though...more of an entire body movement.

B True

 

[Hannibal]

You could reccommend box squats to your friend instead of cleans. Box squats are better for getting powerfull legs and you can do them explosively with chains and bands too. I dont know why non-olympic lifters would want to do cleans much anyways when there are much better lower body stuff like box squats, GM's, deadlifts etc

AGREED....in the time it takes to teach someone proper technique on the Olympic lifts you could easily put 25-50lbs on their Sq/Dl. And if your deadlift goes up...then your cleaning power increases...but the opposite is not true.

 

[b fold the truth]

AGREED....in the time it takes to teach someone proper technique on the Olympic lifts you could easily put 25-50lbs on their Sq/Dl. And if your deadlift goes up...then your cleaning power increases...but the opposite is not true.

I still think that your statement about the time it takes is speculation. The time it takes to teach someone the perfect lift could be years...just look at us for example. We have both been squatting for years yet we still strive to perfect our technique. Also...once the proper technique of the clean and jerk is present...they can be VERY beneficial.

If the box squat increases the deadlift and the deadlift increases the clean...does the box squat then increase your clean also?

B True

 

[Hannibal]

I still think that your statement about the time it takes is speculation. The time it takes to teach someone the perfect lift could be years...just look at us for example. We have both been squatting for years yet we still strive to perfect our technique. Also...once the proper technique of the clean and jerk is present...they can be VERY beneficial.

If the box squat increases the deadlift and the deadlift increases the clean...does the box squat then increase your clean also?

B True

Well if I gave you shit on the other thread I have to stick to it here...hahaha. Seriously I dont see how Olympic Lifts make you "explosive"...in comparison to a box squat with bands to accomodate resistance. I agree with you that in strongman they can be beneficial...just on a technique basis for some of the events. But as far as traditional sports I would spend more time of box squatting with bands...and less to no time on O-Lifts.

As for your second question...thats a good one. Would like to know the answer to that one myself.

 

[b fold the truth]

Well if I gave you shit on the other thread I have to stick to it here...hahaha. Seriously I dont see how Olympic Lifts make you "explosive"...in comparison to a box squat with bands to accomodate resistance. I agree with you that in strongman they can be beneficial...just on a technique basis for some of the events. But as far as traditional sports I would spend more time of box squatting with bands...and less to no time on O-Lifts.

As for your second question...thats a good one. Would like to know the answer to that one myself.

We ARE on the same page here. There is NO FREAKIN' WAY I would trade box squats for clean and presses!!!!!!!! I could trade flat or incline bench press for them though, especially in my sport.

I actually think that doing my high band tension box squats have helped me with my clean and jerk. I think that the goodmornings may help with the initial clean and the explosive box squats help with the leg drive on the press. So much of the overhead press is being purely explosive enough off of your shoulders that the bar just snaps into a lockout position.

You can see me doing a poor job on the log clean and press here (form has become much better since)...but you get the idea...

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/cfe19b85/bc/262+log+press.mpg?bcUiz18AHRHLcsas

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

Just to clarify...cleans don't take the place of squats...never...in my opinion...

B True

 

[Arioch]

And if your deadlift goes up...then your cleaning power increases...but the opposite is not true.

Not necessarily. The clean has to be pulled much higher, and the only time the deadlift is truly effective at improving the clean is if the lifter is weak off of the deck, which is very rare.

I agree that nothing can take the place of squats.

If you box squat goes up, your clean will increase assuming several factors:
1. Your squat was weak and holding back you clean (not to common, but more common in the US vs. other contries who squat much heavier than our athletes, and then trounce them in compeition - go figure).
2. Your technique is capable of handling the increase in strength. If the technique is not there, it does not matter how strong you are, within reason.
3. You also have the upper back strength necessary to handle the increase in strength following the box squat increase.

 

[Gladiola]

My head is spinning again!

No one is talking about doing any 'trading'. I usually do 3-5 exercises per muscle group per session. I also rarely do the exact same mix of exercises for more than 2-3 weeks a row, so I'm looking for variety. I would incorporate the great lower body stuff, like GM's & deads on a 'core day' (a new thing we're going to start) & maybe cleans on occasion too. Still do squats on leg day. Yeah, I'm trying to combine PL & BB training.... not sure how compatible it is, but I'm having fun experimenting.

Neither he nor I do ANY type of competition. I'm, uh, years (and pounds) away from being a competitive PL'er & competitive cycling is low on his priority list.

I dont know why non-olympic lifters would want to do cleans much anyways when there are much better lower body stuff like

We're not competitiors, but that doesn't mean we don't want to be explosive, powerful, strong, & work on technique, skill, speed (as B Fold said). No one questions non-competitive bodybuilders for wanting to be ripped & super lean, why question non-competitive PLer's for wanting to be skilled athletes? It's more enjoyable just trying to beat only myself anyway.

 

[Hannibal]

Not necessarily. The clean has to be pulled much higher, and the only time the deadlift is truly effective at improving the clean is if the lifter is weak off of the deck, which is very rare.

Should have clarified..that is what I meant. Once you past the waist the carryover from deadlifts is minimal. Might be more carryover if you practiced deadlift with bands. But to increase the top part you would have to employ hang cleans, or some other second pull exercise.

 

[Welsh power house]

You could reccommend box squats to your friend instead of cleans. Box squats are better for getting powerfull legs and you can do them explosively with chains and bands too. I dont know why non-olympic lifters would want to do cleans much anyways when there are much better lower body stuff like box squats, GM's, deadlifts etc

Cleans are by far the best total body lift as far as explosive power, speed and all over athletic ability goes. For rugby they are number 1, same goes for football, soccer, hockey and any other contact sport that requires explosive power, speed and general strength. Yeah squats, deads, bench are all good, but quick lifts are far more sport specific than powerlifts.

 

[CytoMel]

Cleans are by far the best total body lift as far as explosive power, speed and all over athletic ability goes. For rugby they are number 1, same goes for football, soccer, hockey and any other contact sport that requires explosive power, speed and general strength. Yeah squats, deads, bench are all good, but quick lifts are far more sport specific than powerlifts.

I think this discussion has gone way off topic. What is this crap about rugby and soccer? The original post is about bike riding which is all legs. How would cleans work better than box squats for strengthing the legs for a bicyclist?-they wouldn't.

Also speaking about sports like football and hockey I think the squats and bench pressing are more important than olympic lifts too. The NFL puts a lot of stock in the 225 for reps test in the bench press but as far as I know they don't test the clean. There is a powerlifting for football player program on elitefts.com and there is a lot more powerlifting training than olympic lifting.

 

[Arioch]

Ever seen the NFL combine test for reps. What a bunch of shit. I could bench my 1 rm for reps like those.

And the Bench has the least amount of carry-over to football out of any of the contested lifts. Not to many people are doing things with their entire torso supported during a play. The only ones who are receiving any form of support are riding the pine.

The clean is extremely popular with NFL strength coaches. The clean from the hang is favored among linemen as it closely simulates the blow administed coming off the line.

However, back to the original topic, as to why a cyclist would need to perform cleans, uhh, dunno. They look pretty cool. I would actually distribute the workload between squats and split squats, then really focus on hamstring and addutor work, as many long-term cyclists develop patella trouble secondary to overdevelopment of the vastus lateralis.