my mojo has emigrated

[Straker]

My last cycle was approximately 18 months ago (40mg/day Dbol and 30mg/day winny tabs - six weeks). My libido went awol about four weeks into the cycle and stayed away even after proper PCT was carried out (Nolva and Clomid). Since that time my libido has been extremely patchy and have had some woody problems too. I have been seeing an endo who originally gave me Nolva (no reaction), then tried yohimbine (nothing doing) and has now given me prozac! (in case this is depression related problem - still nothing happening). I have had blood tests throughout the past 12 months or so and they consistently show a high LH, normal FSH and normal/low test. I guess this is indicative of primary hypogonadism which means could be some permanent damage. I'm having trouble accepting this as have only ever taken two cycles (both as above). Had no ill effects from the first one and then this from the second one.

Am really interested in Jenetic's opinion on this and all others for that matter. I really don't want to go on HRT. I assume I am correct in my thinking that another PCT onlong the lines of that run by Jenetic would not be any good to me, as my LH is not a problem and it seems to be leydig cells that aren't pulling their weight. Any thoughts on remedies for sluggish leydig cell activity?

thanks

 

[Mr. Black]

If I were you I'd find another endo...

 

[oldman69]

My last cycle was approximately 18 months ago (40mg/day Dbol and 30mg/day winny tabs - six weeks). My libido went awol about four weeks into the cycle and stayed away even after proper PCT was carried out (Nolva and Clomid). Since that time my libido has been extremely patchy and have had some woody problems too. I have been seeing an endo who originally gave me Nolva (no reaction), then tried yohimbine (nothing doing) and has now given me prozac! (in case this is depression related problem - still nothing happening). I have had blood tests throughout the past 12 months or so and they consistently show a high LH, normal FSH and normal/low test. I guess this is indicative of primary hypogonadism which means could be some permanent damage. I'm having trouble accepting this as have only ever taken two cycles (both as above). Had no ill effects from the first one and then this from the second one.

Am really interested in Jenetic's opinion on this and all others for that matter. I really don't want to go on HRT. I assume I am correct in my thinking that another PCT onlong the lines of that run by Jenetic would not be any good to me, as my LH is not a problem and it seems to be leydig cells that aren't pulling their weight. Any thoughts on remedies for sluggish leydig cell activity?

thanks

Straker,

I was in a very similiar position as years ago. You indeed may have some permanent damage. I choose to "wait it out". It took approximately 2.5-3 years (no meds) for my test to return to the mid range. I too, had only taken a few mild cycles, mostly deca (400mgs wk). Never ran any PCT, except for sporadiac HCG.

Now, years after, the issue has surfaced again. Very low libido, ed issues, etc.., Tried 2 PCT (dr. JMW) cycles with no results. Still low libido, ed issues. Have appt. with uro who is familiar with HRT. He said that's what I need. Running bloods to determine correct meds.

Good luck.

 

[JKurz1]

Straker,

I was in a very similiar position as years ago. You indeed may have some permanent damage. I choose to "wait it out". It took approximately 2.5-3 years (no meds) for my test to return to the mid range. I too, had only taken a few mild cycles, mostly deca (400mgs wk). Never ran any PCT, except for sporadiac HCG.

Now, years after, the issue has surfaced again. Very low libido, ed issues, etc.., Tried 2 PCT (dr. JMW) cycles with no results. Still low libido, ed issues. Have appt. with uro who is familiar with HRT. He said that's what I need. Running bloods to determine correct meds.

Good luck.

Are you still putting on weight in the gym????????????

 

[Jenetic]

Straker,

I was in a very similiar position as years ago. You indeed may have some permanent damage. I choose to "wait it out". It took approximately 2.5-3 years (no meds) for my test to return to the mid range. I too, had only taken a few mild cycles, mostly deca (400mgs wk). Never ran any PCT, except for sporadiac HCG.

Now, years after, the issue has surfaced again. Very low libido, ed issues, etc.., Tried 2 PCT (dr. JMW) cycles with no results. Still low libido, ed issues. Have appt. with uro who is familiar with HRT. He said that's what I need. Running bloods to determine correct meds.

Good luck.

I thought that you have experienced some significant changes with the last few adjustments?

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

My last cycle was approximately 18 months ago (40mg/day Dbol and 30mg/day winny tabs - six weeks). My libido went awol about four weeks into the cycle and stayed away even after proper PCT was carried out (Nolva and Clomid). Since that time my libido has been extremely patchy and have had some woody problems too. I have been seeing an endo who originally gave me Nolva (no reaction), then tried yohimbine (nothing doing) and has now given me prozac! (in case this is depression related problem - still nothing happening). I have had blood tests throughout the past 12 months or so and they consistently show a high LH, normal FSH and normal/low test. I guess this is indicative of primary hypogonadism which means could be some permanent damage. I'm having trouble accepting this as have only ever taken two cycles (both as above). Had no ill effects from the first one and then this from the second one.

Am really interested in Jenetic's opinion on this and all others for that matter. I really don't want to go on HRT. I assume I am correct in my thinking that another PCT onlong the lines of that run by Jenetic would not be any good to me, as my LH is not a problem and it seems to be leydig cells that aren't pulling their weight. Any thoughts on remedies for sluggish leydig cell activity?

thanks

Please post your blood work results. Also, Prozac can ruin your libido to the point where it's nonexistent.

Jenetic

 

[Straker]

hanks for all the replies.

I am going to halt the prozac, I don't feel depressed anyway so I reckon it is a hindrance rather than any help.

My test results over the past year or so are as follows. I hope these make sense to you guys stateside, as in the UK we seem to take slightly different measures. Normal ranges shown in brackets.

test (10-30) FSH (1.8-8.6) LH (0.8-6.1)
june 03 9.7 2.8 9.4
oct 03 21.3 4.0 8.1
jan 04 21.3 7.8 20.4
july 04 20.8 10.4 16.9
Nov 04 17.2 8.3 18.5

There were also several tests taken between jan 04 and july 04 but I don't have those to hand. To give you a bit more background I am 34 years of age 5'8, I weigh about 12 stones. I still feel fine in the gym and have neither gained nor lost any lean body mass over the past 18 months and have not accumulated any low-testosterone related fat. I kept my gains from the cycles I carried out.

cheers

 

[pursuit]

Your Test levels are roughly in the middle of the normal range. On the other hand, if you have libido problems this may show that your levels were previously in the higher end of the range and this may be a problem. The most important thing of course is how you feel so this definetely is a problem to be sorted. Have you tried taking HCG?

 

[Straker]

I took a couple of shots of HCG about 12 months ago but didn't follow through on a full course because I was expecting some immediate effect, and none was apparent. How long should HCG take to work? Should I have noticed something from the two shots I took (approx 1500 each)? I have not taken again because I assumed it wouldn't help me due to my LH being high anyway. My impression was that HCG mimics LH. I figured my problem was further down the line at the testicles level, what do you think? I still have HCG so could try PCT again with it but am also worried about over stimulating my leydig cells just in case it aggravates the problem, does this make sense?

thanks for the reply.

 

[pursuit]

Taking two shots would have had some effect but really you need to be taking several consecutive shots of it as outlined by Jenetic and Dr. JMW in their PCT protocols to shock the testicles the most. Even when your LH is high it cannot have as powerful effect in stimulating the testes as HCG.
LH says to the boys "Right guys, I want you to produce more testosterone"
HCG says to the boys "I WANT LOADS OF TEST AND I WANT IT...NOW!!!"
I wouldn't worry too much about overstimulating the Leydig cells, that is a lesser evil than primary hypogonadism. I'm no expert so... Jenetic?

 

[patsfan1379]

^^

 

[Jenetic]

hanks for all the replies.

I am going to halt the prozac, I don't feel depressed anyway so I reckon it is a hindrance rather than any help.

My test results over the past year or so are as follows. I hope these make sense to you guys stateside, as in the UK we seem to take slightly different measures. Normal ranges shown in brackets.

test (10-30) FSH (1.8-8.6) LH (0.8-6.1)
june 03 9.7 2.8 9.4
oct 03 21.3 4.0 8.1
jan 04 21.3 7.8 20.4
july 04 20.8 10.4 16.9
Nov 04 17.2 8.3 18.5

There were also several tests taken between jan 04 and july 04 but I don't have those to hand. To give you a bit more background I am 34 years of age 5'8, I weigh about 12 stones. I still feel fine in the gym and have neither gained nor lost any lean body mass over the past 18 months and have not accumulated any low-testosterone related fat. I kept my gains from the cycles I carried out.

cheers

Were you taking any Clomid or Nolvadex around the time of these tests?

Jenetic

 

[Straker]

Hi Jenetic,

No, I wasn't taking any PCT related substances when these tests were performed. Do you think I should try some HCG followed by another course of Nolva/clomid (bearing in mind my high LH)? As stated previously my concern with this would be that it might cause more damage to my leydig cells, is there any logic to my anxiety?

thanks

 

[Jenetic]

Your current testosterone result of 17.2 nmol/L (SI unit) translates as 495 ng/dl (conventional units). This is considered normal, especially for your age. Unless you have test results to confirm otherwise, I don't see a problem. Have your testicles atrophied?

In regards to Ledig Cell desensitization, Nolvadex prevents and/or minimizies the HCG induced Leydig Cell desensitization. Therefore, you can run a recovery protocol without hesitation if desired.

Please keep in mind, there are various factors that attribute to erectile dysfunction. The most common is from a mental aspect which is very difficult for many men to accept. The one thing I would recommend right now is to use a sexual aid such as Viagra or Cialis. Personally, I prefer Cialis and you should definitely incoporate one of these as performance complications definitely exert a long lasting mental impression.

Jenetic

 

[oldman69]

[QUOTE=Jenetic]I thought that you have experienced some significant changes with the last few adjustments?

Jenetic

How in the world do you keep track of all your correspodences?

Yes, your correct I did start to see a turn around(ed issues) upon the addition treatment you suggested (see: Nuts like a Wild Field Mouse), now that I have discontinued the HCG (approx. 3 wks. later) my libido is zero! I did a "bloods" history check with my primary doctor and it revealed as far back as 15 years that I have consistently low LH & test. My LH ranged from 0.9 to 1.48(0.7-9.3) , total test from 134 to 398(241-827).

As we discussed, I go for new "bloods", 2 wks after end of PCT, that were suggested by my Uro on 12-24-04. I'll keep you posted on his recomendation, upon review.

Thanks again.

 

[Straker]

Thank you again for the replies.

It is very possible that my condition is predominantly a mental one. This heartens me in one respect (I'm physically ok) but depresses me in another, as quite difficult to quantify and treat.

I have stopped taking the prozac for approx 10 days now (no change anywhere) and have decided to run PCT yet again. I realise that PCT might not be necessary, if my problem is psychological, but I am hoping that running it will cause some sort of reaction that might give me a chance to re-calibrate my system (be it mentally or physically). Basically I feel the need to do something to shift me out of this gad damn awful rut I seem to have been stuck in for the last 18 months.

Tok my first shot of HCG last night and will administer again every 4 days until i run out, alongside nolva.

I will keep you posted as to any changes. Any advice or comments?

thanks

 

[sigmund]

Thank you again for the replies.

It is very possible that my condition is predominantly a mental one. This heartens me in one respect (I'm physically ok) but depresses me in another, as quite difficult to quantify and treat.

I have stopped taking the prozac for approx 10 days now (no change anywhere) and have decided to run PCT yet again. I realise that PCT might not be necessary, if my problem is psychological, but I am hoping that running it will cause some sort of reaction that might give me a chance to re-calibrate my system (be it mentally or physically). Basically I feel the need to do something to shift me out of this gad damn awful rut I seem to have been stuck in for the last 18 months.

Tok my first shot of HCG last night and will administer again every 4 days until i run out, alongside nolva.

I will keep you posted as to any changes. Any advice or comments?

thanks

Hi mate,

If you think the problem is likely to be psychological have you considered seeing a therapist via GP referral?

I'm a trained hypnotherapist (although not working in the field at the moment), some of my clients suffered with 'conversion disorder' where repressed mental conflicts (guilt, shame of sex or masturbation) were expressed in a physical way (ED). Sometimes it's more straight forward, i.e. performance anxiety and it's more common than most men will admit.

 

[Straker]

Thank you for your reply. Despite what I said in my previous post I am really having problems accepting that my libido and ED problems are psychological. This is not due to misplaced pride or embarrassment but because of the timing of the onset of my difficulties (coincided with cycle) and also because I do not get any spontaneous erections (morning woody or any other time). I am prepared to entertain any possibility of the root of my problem because i am so desperate to sort it out. Is there any way to definitely tell whether my problem is physical or psychological?

I see you are also in the UK. Could you recommend any specialists that might be able to help, if this is a psychological problem?

thanks.

 

[sigmund]

Thank you for your reply. Despite what I said in my previous post I am really having problems accepting that my libido and ED problems are psychological. This is not due to misplaced pride or embarrassment but because of the timing of the onset of my difficulties (coincided with cycle) and also because I do not get any spontaneous erections (morning woody or any other time). I am prepared to entertain any possibility of the root of my problem because i am so desperate to sort it out. Is there any way to definitely tell whether my problem is physical or psychological?

I see you are also in the UK. Could you recommend any specialists that might be able to help, if this is a psychological problem?

thanks.

If you're not getting morning wood - then that often indicates low levels of circulating free testosterone. It could be that your estradiol (E2) is high - this would have the knock on effect of increasing SHBG, so your free-test (which drives libido) could be low... I'm speculating here so what you really need is a full range of hormonal blood work.

I would guess you may be shut down to some degree and in addition the stress / anxiety of the situation is making matters worse.

If you would like me to recommend a hypnotherapist let me know your location via PM and I'll try to advise someone who is local to you.

As for a specific recommended specialist (London based) check your PM.

Alternatively (to save money) you could ask to be referred out to your local endocrinologist / therapist via your GP.

-------------------------------------------------

From: http://www.regentsparkclinic.com

What are the commonest causes of erection problems?

Erection problems can be caused by:

1. Physical factors
2. Psychological factors
Or 3. A mixture of physical and psychological factors - (Sig) NOTE: Which may possibly be your situation.

Physical Causes

There are many physical causes, which tend to occur in the older man (over 50 years old) and tend to start gradually and slowly get worse. Examples of physical causes are:

1. Damage to the nerve supply to the penis such as in diabetes and multiple sclerosis.
2. Damage to the blood supply to the penis such as with high blood pressure, atherosclerosis, and diabetes.
3. A lack of hormones required for such as testosterone or thyroxine.
4. Prescribed drugs can effect erections such as those for high blood pressure, depression, schizophrenia, and epilepsy.
5. A high intakes of substances such as smoking, alcohol, cannabis, heroin, and cocaine.

Psychological Causes

It is surprising how one episode of being unable to get or keep an erection can lead to such anxiety which then leads to further episodes of erection problems and so on in a vicious cycle. When psychological factors predominate the problems is often of a sudden onset and is variable over time and in different situations. Some factors include:

1. Stress, anxiety, and tiredness
2. Relationship problems such as poor communication, poor understanding and habitual conflict.
3. Decline in sexual interest
4. Depression

Regents Park Clinic will carry out a full assessment by taking a medical history and asking questions about the problem, about your sexual relationship/s, and about stresses such as work or money problems.

After that they will do an examination, which includes taking a blood pressure, and examining the heart, abdomen, and genitals. They check the nervous system by doing your reflexes and the blood supply by checking the leg pulses.

Finally they will check the urine for glucose to rule out diabetes, and do a blood test to check kidney function (U&E’s), liver function (LFT’s), thyroid function (TFT’s), and a testosterone level.

(Sig) Note: You may want to go in prepared and have a list of what you want back from the blood test - i.e.

Testosterone: (10.4-40.6) nmol/L

LH: (1.7-10.5) IU/L

FSH: (1.55-11.74) IU/L

SHBG: (7-50) nmol/L

- Free Testosterone ratio -

TSH: (0.49 - 5.0) mU/l

E2: (12 to 46) pg/ml - (5.37-65.9) nmol/L

Prolactin: (58-416) mU/l

DHT: (36-573) pg/ml

Free T4: 1.0 (0.7-1.9) nmol/L

Cortisol: (4.5-22.7) nmol/L

DHEA (180-1250) ng/dl

-------------------------------------------------

 

[geoboy]

It could be that your estradiol (E2) is high - this would have the knock on effect of increasing SHBG, so your free-test (which drives libido) could be low...

my estradiol is about 10 points above the reference range, and morning wood is not happening. I'm only doing a 10mg dbol bridge right now.

1) is that common with dbol?
2) how can I lower blood estradiol levels without arimidex (too harsh on my hair for some reason)?

 

[sigmund]

my estradiol is about 10 points above the reference range, and morning wood is not happening. I'm only doing a 10mg dbol bridge right now.

1) is that common with dbol?
2) how can I lower blood estradiol levels without arimidex (too harsh on my hair for some reason)?

1) 10 points above the ref range shouldn't impact morning wood providing there's internal hormonal equilibrium (homeostasis). Some docs say morning wood is not a good indicator of test levels (suggesting it is an auto response related to having a full bladder / the need to urinate) however in my experience I have noticed a correlation between morning erections and natural testosterone recovery.

You say you're bridging with dbol (10mg) currently - I thought I’d read in another thread that you’re on HRT (?). Do you have your other levels to hand? (Test, Free-Test, SHBG etc)? Is your sex drive ok in general? Did the problem coincide with you starting the dbol?

When I'm on Dbol I sometimes get mildly painful erections that seem to last for hours overnight until morning. I presume my circulating Free-Test has elevated well above normal levels – I also dream about sex non-stop.

2) Nolvadex will help block the active E2 from binding at receptor sites but as an aromatase inhibitor - Arimidex (.5mg EOD or E3D) is king, it should help to bring your E2 right down, preventing the estradiol from forming in the first place. I've heard hair loss unofficially listed as a side from Adex but it's supposedly very rare (remember the drug is intended for use in breast cancer patients who may have undergone radiation therapy). Are you sure that it is causing you to shed? At what dose / interval did you take it?

 

[geoboy]

1) 10 points above the ref range shouldn't impact morning wood providing there's internal hormonal equilibrium (homeostasis).

I just checked the report, its actually 24 pts above ref range of 10-50

You say you're bridging with dbol (10mg) currently - I thought I’d read in another thread that you’re on HRT (?).

Yes, to both

Do you have your other levels to hand? (Test, Free-Test, SHBG etc)? Is your sex drive ok in general? Did the problem coincide with you starting the dbol?

no on other levels, I didnt want to check test/free test with this doc because I knew they would be high and didnt want to freak the doc. and yes, everytime I do dbol, I have the same issue, and erections weaker which return to normal when I stop the dbol. this is the case even when I'm also doing high test 400-600mg ew.

When I'm on Dbol I sometimes get mildly painful erections that seem to last for hours overnight until morning. I presume my circulating Free-Test has elevated well above normal levels – I also dream about sex non-stop.

Showoff.


Are you sure (arimidex) that it is causing you to shed? At what dose / interval did you take it?

maybe shed is not the right description since I never take it long enuf to get to that point. what I experience is dry, brittle, lifeless hair within days of starting the adex. from past experience with proviron, 1-tu, winny, I know the next step for me is painful scalp, then a nice telogen effluvium. so I just stopped it. (dont remember mg exactly but I remember it was low dose)

my hair is apparantly very sensitive (positively & negatively) to estrogens, since dbol (believe it or not) and boldione (a prohormone that aromatizes at a high rate, at least for me) always cause my hair to look healthy within days of starting. this would be consistent with my high estradiol levels at only a 10mg dbol + 200 mg test dosing

 

[sigmund]

I just checked the report, its actually 24 pts above ref range of 10-50

In that case I'd say it's likely that high E is causing the problem. I suppose the only way to know for sure though is having an experienced Doc check out your hormone levels and probably conduct a thorough examination.

Dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and it could be throwing you out of balance.

Do you get any other symptoms associated with high E? Itchy nips / water retention?

Is your sex drive ok?

Only other things I can think of is blood pressure and prostate, have you had them checked?

What did you think about my Nolvadex suggestion? It won't prevent the formation of Estradiol but should help block it by occupying receptor sites.

Other option is Proviron - but (due to my cautious nature ) I'd recommend getting DHT / PSA levels evaluated before adding it to the mix.

When I'm on Dbol I sometimes get mildly painful erections that seem to last for hours overnight until morning. I presume my circulating Free-Test has elevated well above normal levels – I also dream about sex non-stop.

Showoff.

Cheers

 

[pursuit]

When I'm on Dbol I sometimes get mildly painful erections that seem to last for hours overnight until morning. I presume my circulating Free-Test has elevated well above normal levels – I also dream about sex non-stop

While you're on the dbol it is very likely that your test. levels will be lower not higher. Dbol does not convert to test. but does suppress the HPTA. Nevertheless your horniness is likely arising from the fact that dbol is an androgen, having test-like properties.

 

[patsfan1379]

I just checked the report, its actually 24 pts above ref range of 10-50

In that case I'd say it's likely that high E is causing the problem. I suppose the only way to know for sure though is having an experienced Doc check out your hormone levels and probably conduct a thorough examination.

Dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and it could be throwing you out of balance.

Do you get any other symptoms associated with high E? Itchy nips / water retention?

Is your sex drive ok?

Only other things I can think of is blood pressure and prostate, have you had them checked?

What did you think about my Nolvadex suggestion? It won't prevent the formation of Estradiol but should help block it by occupying receptor sites.

Other option is Proviron - but (due to my cautious nature ) I'd recommend getting DHT / PSA levels evaluated before adding it to the mix.




Cheers

when nolva. is used, it blocks the attachment at the receptor site, leaving "free roaming estrogen" once nolva. is discontinued, is there a flood of the left over estro?? Or does the blocked extra flow out of the body?

 

[sigmund]

when nolva. is used, it blocks the attachment at the receptor site, leaving "free roaming estrogen" once nolva. is discontinued, is there a flood of the left over estro?? Or does the blocked extra flow out of the body?

My understanding is that when Nolva is used PCT, the excess estro flows out of the body as levels gradually return to normal - so when Nolva is ceased approx. 6 weeks post cycle levels have regulated and there isn't a sudden flood of estro.

However if you were to continue taking dbol (bridge) / test (above natural production levels) - free roaming estrogen would remain elevated and you'd be back to square one.

If you use the dbol bridge in conjunction with small doses of Nolva, I think this may help solve the morning wood issue however you would need to continue the nolva (similar to those following PCT) for a few weeks after finishing with the dbol while the excess estradiol is flushed from your system.