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javaguru
Banned
Marketing scam or Saint????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzFEesUUX0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzFEesUUX0s
Mother T....
- Thread starter javaguru
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Gambino
Guest
good clip, watch the one about dalai lama
javaguru
Banned
I posted that one last week....Gambino said:
Dalai Lhama...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXRmPwWGwBA
Ghandi...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-QK35hYIWo
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Where do you come up with these links?
THANK YOU.
I always knew the church was a scam but good god of THIS magnitude.... TODAY?!?!
This crap really really pisses me off.
THANK YOU.
I always knew the church was a scam but good god of THIS magnitude.... TODAY?!?!
This crap really really pisses me off.
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javaguru said:
Absolute power, corrupts absolutely.
Tell me about it.... as we open yet another "fuck you" letter from the ACLU. It's all good... we will just keep goin till we get with someone who will help us.
There are so many people out there to fuck you and take your money. I find the religious fuckers THE WORST. Having said that, if me and the Old Grump had no souls, we would DEFINITELY go into the God business as we all know the God business is a good business.
We have a soul though, God dammit.
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Gambino
Guest
BIKINIMOM said:
to call mother t a scam is a bit much though
even penn/teller wouldn't go that far...i don't think that clip really takes away from her, just shows her humanness
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javaguru said:I posted that one last week....
Dalai Lhama...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXRmPwWGwBA
Ghandi...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-QK35hYIWo
The stuff about the Dalai Lhama was totally unknown to me and makes the handfull of *stars* willing to fund his cause seem ridiculous. I didn't know about the ruling monk social class and EVERYBODY else being left to live in lifelong serfdom. That is messed up.
As for the stuff about Ghandi, the racist aspect of it was fairly reprehensible to me, though somewhat understandable given where he lived and the times in which he lived. I mean, how many people today STILL think they are superior to anyone of a darker skin? You can't really blame the guy. Though I confess, I found it shocking. I never knew of this side of Ghandi's politics. The sexual stuff, yea well, he was a man afterall. So I am not the least bit surprised.
The fact that someone like the Rev Martin Luther King. Jr took Ghandi's politics and was able to SUCCESSFULLY incorporate them into non-violent protest and forwarding a movement that championed THE HUMAN RACE, I found to be just amazing - I mean, here is a guy who would have been HATED by Ghandi based on the color of his skin alone and yet he successfully employed his philosophies of acceptance and love urging us to judge one another on the content of our character alone.
NO HUMAN IS A SAINT. We are all flawed and we have all done things that some or most might consider reprehensible. I dont think that this is what should be given most weight, but rather how it was that we influenced MOST by our words and deeds.
As the quote in my signature says, "Every saint has a past and ever sinner a future." <---- came from the Helen Hunt movie, "A Good Woman."
None of us is perfect, least of all those that claim to be.
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heatherrae
Guest
Wow.
How ridiculous. First of all, all nuns have those nun names. They call them Mother so and so. It is is common not to use your name. It doesn't mean shit.
Plus, anyone who gave money to Mother Theresa was giving the money to the Catholic Church. If they had a problem with supporting the Catholic Church, I think they should have chosen a different charity.
Additionally, when someone gives money to charity, is she supposed to spit in their faces and judge their politics, lifestyles, etc? As much as they wanted to make her look like some sort of monster, did she personally benefit from any of that money? Guess they couldn't dig up any dirt on her living the high life.
She lived in poverty and serving the poor.
In India, there are absolutely unbelievable living conditions. People die in TERRIBLE conditions. So, she takes in as many as she can in the space that she has. We don't know why the rule about visitors is in place. Perhaps it is because they just have not got the space for all of that.
I'll tell you what, though. She is lots better than people complaining and moaning on the internet and trying to personally profit from degrading her memory. She worked with the poor her entire life and died with NOTHING. I usually like Penn & Teller, but I think they are just being crude now.
I'm not even Catholic. I don't particularly care for the Catholic Church, but defaming Mother Theresa with this little nit-picky bullshit is terrible/
How ridiculous. First of all, all nuns have those nun names. They call them Mother so and so. It is is common not to use your name. It doesn't mean shit.
Plus, anyone who gave money to Mother Theresa was giving the money to the Catholic Church. If they had a problem with supporting the Catholic Church, I think they should have chosen a different charity.
Additionally, when someone gives money to charity, is she supposed to spit in their faces and judge their politics, lifestyles, etc? As much as they wanted to make her look like some sort of monster, did she personally benefit from any of that money? Guess they couldn't dig up any dirt on her living the high life.
She lived in poverty and serving the poor. In India, there are absolutely unbelievable living conditions. People die in TERRIBLE conditions. So, she takes in as many as she can in the space that she has. We don't know why the rule about visitors is in place. Perhaps it is because they just have not got the space for all of that.
I'll tell you what, though. She is lots better than people complaining and moaning on the internet and trying to personally profit from degrading her memory. She worked with the poor her entire life and died with NOTHING. I usually like Penn & Teller, but I think they are just being crude now.
I'm not even Catholic. I don't particularly care for the Catholic Church, but defaming Mother Theresa with this little nit-picky bullshit is terrible/
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heatherrae
Guest
I'm not even bothering to watch the Ghandi and Dalai Lama ones. If Penn & Teller can come up with no other factual support for their arguments than some crackpot authors whom no one has even heard of, I completely doubt their credibility.
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heatherrae
Guest
I already said that I'm not Catholic. The Catholic church has done some rotten things.javaguru said:
Tibet? You are insulting the Dalai Lama and then talking about Tibet?
Thanks for telling me to review history again in your unending pedantic way. Don't you imagine that I may have picked up a book or two in my 7 years of collegiate study and beyond?
javaguru
Banned
You aren't talking about Christopher Hitchens????heatherrae said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
"Christopher Eric Hitchens (born April 13, 1949) is an British-American author, journalist and literary critic. Currently living in Washington, D.C., he has been a columnist at Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, The Nation, Slate and Free Inquiry; additionally, he is an occasional contributor to other publications and has appeared regularly in the Wall Street Journal. His brother is fellow journalist Peter Hitchens.
Hitchens is known for his iconoclasm, atheism, antitheism, anti-fascism and anti-monarchism. He is also noted for his acerbic wit and his noisy departure from the Anglo-American political left. He was formerly a Trotskyist and a fixture in the left wing publications of Britain and America.[1] But a series of disagreements beginning in the early 1990s led to his resignation from The Nation shortly after the September 11, 2001, attacks.[2] He is also known for his ardent admiration of George Orwell[3] and Thomas Jefferson,[4] and his criticism of Mother Teresa.[5]"
"In September 2005, Hitchens was named as one of the "Top 100 Public Intellectuals"[56] by Foreign Policy and Britain's Prospect magazine. An online poll was held which ranked the 100 intellectuals, but the magazine noted that Hitchens' (#5), Chomsky's (#1), and Abdolkarim Soroush's (#15) rankings were partly due to supporters publicising the vote.[57]
He is an Honorary Associate of the National Secular Society.[58]"
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heatherrae
Guest
Yep, a regular household name. Face it, you didn't know who the hell he was before you wikipedia'd him. He was a columnist for some magazines. Big deal.javaguru said:
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heatherrae
Guest
You know, instead of knocking people who are out helping the poor and defaming the dead, maybe your time would be better spent doing some charity work yourself.
javaguru
Banned
A well respected columnist and contributor for.....Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, The Nation, Slate and Free Inquiry and The Wall Street Journalheatherrae said:
Those are some pretty shady publications with no journalistic merit...
Apparently some people have heard of him...
"In September 2005, Hitchens was named as one of the "Top 100 Public Intellectuals"[56] by Foreign Policy and Britain's Prospect magazine. An online poll was held which ranked the 100 intellectuals...."
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heatherrae
Guest
he got an award from some magazine no one heard of and wrote some humor columns for some publications here. Whoopdie fuckin doo da.
When you start attacking the character of Mother Theresa Java, you better be clean as a whistle. I like you and all, but I doubt you are half the person as she was. You should learn maybe an iota of humility.
I'm beginning to wonder if you did this to your ex all the time. Did you just constantly act intellectually superior and insult her religion?
When you start attacking the character of Mother Theresa Java, you better be clean as a whistle. I like you and all, but I doubt you are half the person as she was. You should learn maybe an iota of humility.
I'm beginning to wonder if you did this to your ex all the time. Did you just constantly act intellectually superior and insult her religion?
seaking420
New member
I agree with Java and BM how it's all a scam
javaguru
Banned
The other "crackpot writer" according to HR.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroup_Chatterjee
Dr. Aroup Chatterjee is the author of the book Mother Teresa: The Final Verdict which seeks to challenge the claim to fame of Mother Teresa as a symbol of selfless service. Chatterjee, a physician who formerly worked with the Missionaries of Charity, the order founded by Mother Teresa, has accused her of unfairly damaging the reputation of the city of Kolkata. He also claims that she dishonestly exaggerated the good work she did among the poor, that she failed to spend the very large amount of money donated to her on helping the poor and that the medical care given to people in her homes is grossly inadequate. A documentary named Hell's Angel shown on Channel 4, a British television channel, narrated by another known critic of Mother Teresa, Christopher Hitchens (who co-produced the documentary with Tariq Ali). Dr Chaterjee has criticised the documentary for being sensationalistic, but has not commented on the veracity of the claims. The two were the only two official hostile witnesses to the church procedures for her beatification in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroup_Chatterjee
Dr. Aroup Chatterjee is the author of the book Mother Teresa: The Final Verdict which seeks to challenge the claim to fame of Mother Teresa as a symbol of selfless service. Chatterjee, a physician who formerly worked with the Missionaries of Charity, the order founded by Mother Teresa, has accused her of unfairly damaging the reputation of the city of Kolkata. He also claims that she dishonestly exaggerated the good work she did among the poor, that she failed to spend the very large amount of money donated to her on helping the poor and that the medical care given to people in her homes is grossly inadequate. A documentary named Hell's Angel shown on Channel 4, a British television channel, narrated by another known critic of Mother Teresa, Christopher Hitchens (who co-produced the documentary with Tariq Ali). Dr Chaterjee has criticised the documentary for being sensationalistic, but has not commented on the veracity of the claims. The two were the only two official hostile witnesses to the church procedures for her beatification in 2003.
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Gambino
Guest
people have a hard time when standards are attacked.
HR would not like the recycling penn and teller clip either
HR would not like the recycling penn and teller clip either
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heatherrae said:Wow.
How ridiculous. First of all, all nuns have those nun names. They call them Mother so and so. It is is common not to use your name. It doesn't mean shit.
Plus, anyone who gave money to Mother Theresa was giving the money to the Catholic Church. If they had a problem with supporting the Catholic Church, I think they should have chosen a different charity.
Additionally, when someone gives money to charity, is she supposed to spit in their faces and judge their politics, lifestyles, etc? As much as they wanted to make her look like some sort of monster, did she personally benefit from any of that money? Guess they couldn't dig up any dirt on her living the high life.
In India, there are absolutely unbelievable living conditions. People die in TERRIBLE conditions. So, she takes in as many as she can in the space that she has. We don't know why the rule about visitors is in place. Perhaps it is because they just have not got the space for all of that.
I'll tell you what, though. She is lots better than people complaining and moaning on the internet and trying to personally profit from degrading her memory. She worked with the poor her entire life and died with NOTHING. I usually like Penn & Teller, but I think they are just being crude now.
I'm not even Catholic. I don't particularly care for the Catholic Church, but defaming Mother Theresa with this little nit-picky bullshit is terrible/
I will be honest - all I know about this topic is what I have heard (in the past - went to Catholic high school) and what I saw in the Penn & Teller clip. Here is what I found questionable:
1. That the catholic church *magically* did away with TWO of the conditions necessary for someone to become a saint. And ONE of those two (the requirment that TWO miracles be attributed to her after her death) the husband of the wife admitted THAT THE ONE MIRACLE WAS A HOAX.
2. That though Mother Teresa may not have acquired any *expensive stuff* (It's not like we are talking Imelda with her shoes) she did continue to build lots and lots of buildings THAT BORE HER NAME. So now, don't you think that this is a bit suspect?
Just because the woman never gained any *stuff* that does not automatically absolve her of wrong-doing. Even her supporter said that SHE WANTED TO KEEP THE POOR LIVING IN POVERTY? What was that about?... so the poor would remain in not-so-nice conditions while more and more buildings were built that bore her name?
Just being honest about my opinion.
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Gambino
Guest
you didn't watch the clip obivouslybiteme said:
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And as for the Ghandi clip - his highly reprehensible racist propoganda was clearly documented by his own hand.
As I said, "Let the one without sin be the first to cast a stone."
I think that people with a certain level of intelligence should be able to realize that focusing on the negative is not helping anyone. Do I immediately discredit any of Ghandi's good because he did many things that I would question? NO... and further I stated, I think it REMARKABLE that a black man was able to discard Ghandi's hatred of ALL BLACK PEOPLE and actually use his ideals to HELP HIS PEOPLE... thus helpin us all.
As for the catholic church's need to proliferate all this "saint nonsense"... that is on them.
Hell, Istvan Kiraly (the first king of Magyar Orszag) was sainted by the catholic church. He was well noted as one of the Magyar people's MOST RUTHLESS BARBARIANS. But hey, he murdered in the name of the church so I guess that made it ok.
As I said, "Let the one without sin be the first to cast a stone."
I think that people with a certain level of intelligence should be able to realize that focusing on the negative is not helping anyone. Do I immediately discredit any of Ghandi's good because he did many things that I would question? NO... and further I stated, I think it REMARKABLE that a black man was able to discard Ghandi's hatred of ALL BLACK PEOPLE and actually use his ideals to HELP HIS PEOPLE... thus helpin us all.
As for the catholic church's need to proliferate all this "saint nonsense"... that is on them.
Hell, Istvan Kiraly (the first king of Magyar Orszag) was sainted by the catholic church. He was well noted as one of the Magyar people's MOST RUTHLESS BARBARIANS. But hey, he murdered in the name of the church so I guess that made it ok.
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cindylou said:
See now this was one of the problems the peeps that started the reformation had, why no protestants believe in saints.
It isn't that we don't necessarily believe in miracles. I, for one, do believe in them wholeheartedly. I just question bestowing some sort of *magical power* on someone because they will be able to *talk to God on my behalf*. God is everywhere that I am and he hears me always. He just doesn't necessarily respond in the way that I would like it at the time, the way any good parent does when a child asks for that parent's help and/or guidance.
Just my humble .02
javaguru
Banned
Let's see if we can get HR's head to spin.....Gambino said:
Recycling Bullshit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oloM_dSoW4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvfQ0iffj40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnoj9MPpi54
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heatherrae
Guest
The person who spoke on her behalf was just a terrible spokesperson. If she really is so mean and nasty and doing these nefarious deeds, what was it all for? Buildings in her name? What enjoyment did she get from them?BIKINIMOM said:
some people just want to be salacious about everyone. Slinging mud at Mother Theresa is a new low, though.
She did NOTHING besides being a nun. She had NOTHING. She gave all her time to charity and the church.
Is she perfect? I doubt it. Did she have a thing about suffering? Hell if I know. If she did, at least she truly went out there and did what she thought was bringing people to God, etc. That is far more than 99.999999% of people ever do.
Seriously, if you guys want to bash people in the church, stick with the ones who deserve it -- some of the televangelists and child molesters. Leave Mother Theresa out of it.
I'm not Catholic. I don't get the whole saint thing, anyway. If they want to honor her by calling her a saint, I don't care. lol. None of my business. However, I don't like to see a very good person trashed for shits and giggles.
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heatherrae
Guest
I wholeheartedly agree with the recycling bullshit. You guys are so strange that you think you understand my mindset. Obviously, you don't get me...lol.javaguru said:
javaguru
Banned
HR, Hitchens has made numerous US television appearances...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRvgSrBoI8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRvgSrBoI8k
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heatherrae
Guest
So does Paris Hilton. Doesn't exactly make either of them an expert, now, does it?javaguru said:
javaguru
Banned
Your comparison is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response......heatherrae said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZS7jIy608
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heatherrae
Guest
Your attack on Mother Theresa's morals didn't really deserve one either, but you have over 4 pages now.javaguru said:Your comparison is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZS7jIy608
Seriously, you think you are morally superior to Mother Theresa?
Okay, my angry little atheist. Continue your propaganda of hate.
javaguru
Banned
Where did I attack her morals? Bill Gates has done more to help the poor than Mother T.....he should be Sainted......heatherrae said:Your attack on Mother Theresa's morals didn't really deserve one either, but you have over 4 pages now.
Seriously, you think you are morally superior to Mother Theresa?
Okay, my angry little atheist. Continue your propaganda of hate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_&_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
Unlike her, he actually tries to help the poor to have a better life as opposed to letting them die on the floor of a second rate flophouse without adequate medical care and being refused visitation by their family.
Do you complain and rail when people criticize Bill Gates? It seems that once someone invokes a supernatural being they are suddenly above reproach???
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hitchens_16_4.html
HITCHENS: The care facilities are grotesquely simple: rudimentary, unscientific, miles behind any modern conception of what medical science is supposed to do. There have been a number of articles - I've collected some more since my book came out - about the failure and primitivism of her treatment of lepers and the dying, of her attitude towards medication and prophylaxis. Very rightly is it said that she tends to the dying, because if you were doing anything but dying she hasn't really got much to offer.
This is interesting because, first, she only proclaims to be providing people with a Catholic death, and, second, because of the enormous amounts of money mainly donated to rather than raised by her Order. We've been unable to audit this - no one has ever demanded an accounting of how much money has flowed in her direction. With that money she could have built at least one absolutely spanking new, modern teaching hospital in Calcutta without noticing the cost.
The facilities she runs are as primitive now as when she first became a celebrity. So that's obviously not where the money goes.
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heatherrae said:
Well you think that if it is so importnat for the Church to defend their choice for a saint (even though they are breaking the rules to saint her which I dont understand) then they might have made a better choice for a spokesperson. As for what she got from having say 10 buildings with her name on it that were less than acceptable as opposed to only 2 buildings with her name on it that did actually do something to help ease the suffering of the poor. My guess would be is that she was a megalomaniac? Doesnt make her the devil, just makes her less than saintly. And even less than charitable, IMO.
heatherrae said:
I dont disagree with the bolded part of your statement AT ALL.
I know you have a good heart and are probably more angry with the fact that it seems people are trashing someone who can no longer defend themselves (she is dead afterall) rather than who it is that is being trashed. My ex is catholic and his aunt is a nun and a high ranking nun at that. I can sit here and cite all sorts of less than becoming conduct on her part both *professionally* and *privately* as a human being. But that won't elevate my status in anyone's eyes, so why should I bother? My children saw her for the kind of person she was EXACTLY and that is enough for me.
Having said that, I think that The Catholic Church should be the one critisized for:
A - being so stupid as to choose an individual that doesn't even fit their own criteria for sainthood. Then doing a crappy job of altering that criteria. What were they thinking? That the entire world is filled with weak-minded sheep?
Goodness knows they got away with that shit for centuries but come on now.B - making an equally bad choice for who they chose to champion that person who is obviously incapable of championing herself. I mean, hello - she is dead.
As for the Ghandi clip. I have to say that I believe his grandson did quite a good job defending his grandfather. Maybe the church should have chosen Ghandi for sainthood? ('course you must know that I am saying this half tongue-in-cheek... right?)
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heatherrae
Guest
Yes, I would have a problem if someone railed on him for doing charity work because even that wasn't good enough or perfect enough for them. Seems you just like to bash anyone with any religious affiliations regardless of the good deeds that they do. You don't know shit about the work she did in India. You see a 10 minute clip from a couple of magicians/comedians and think you are an expert on her life? Give us all a break from your hate.javaguru said:
As for Sainthood, BM, I really don't care about sainthood. Like I said, I don't get into the whole saints thing. I'm not Catholic.
I just think that to sit around bashing a woman who very CLEARLY must have thought that she was doing the best work that she could to help the poor is in VERY BAD TASTE. If all of us were willing to dedicate our entire lives to help others, like she did, even if we were not perfect, this world would be a much better place.
She died in poverty herself. What did she have? Her robes to cover herself and her frail little body? What else? Nothing. She gave all she had. I can't believe people are targeting her with their hate because they are conflicted about religion. Good deeds are good deeds whether you believe in God, the church, aliens or whatever. Who cares?
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heatherrae said:
I do see what you are saying and it does seem unfortunate that whether she was good or just she thought she was doing good - that a person is being defamed posthumously because the very institution that is *using her* didn't think it through quite properly.
I think this rests more with the stupidity of the catholic church than anyplace else. Sadly, it is human nature to want to kick someone when they are down it seems.
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heatherrae
Guest
Ah yeah, well I won't defend the Catholic Church here...lol. Their coverups for priests over the years is something that I can't forgive. They do lots of good things, but, WOW, do they do lots of BAD things! Mother Theresa and I surely wouldn't agree on very much at all from a religious standpoint. I just think that she was a good person not deserving of lots of posthumous derisive bashing.BIKINIMOM said:
redsamurai
Banned
I have to admit that before watching that clip, I knew not a whole lot about mother theresa......but here's what I "thought" I knew.........that she was outside of the vatican and it's politics and was more of a human being than a "catholic"..........I feel I may have been misguided. Mother Theresa it appears was another catholic robot that yes, mnistered to the poor..........but with a plate of food in one hand and a bible in the other, you couldn't get that food unless you took the scripture that came with it. My god......50 million dollars she raised and did what with it? She was indeed simply a money maker for the vatican............those 50 million went into the vatican coffers to expand their politics around the globe. When those people gave her those 50 million dollars.........I"LL BET EVERYTHING I HAVE that they gave it to her under the understanding that the money would be geared towards making her ministry better, ensuring that people died with dignity or GASP!!!, didn't have to die at all because they got the proper medical attention. But I think it was pretty clear from her actions and the statements she made infront of the camera, that it was more important to her to have these people fullfill some kind of lame christian suffering agenda than to ACTUALLY help these people in a meaningful way...........such as proper medical attention and whatnot. I'm disgusted.........I really am.............and yet another aspect of this world which I "thought" remained pure, has been decimated............I mean fuck, is there anything pure left in this world? Is there "true" selflessness left anywhere? Is every good deed backloaded with personal agenda's and self furtherment and power seeking?? WTF??
And just the sight of that swine bred Donhue anymore makes me ill!! Listening to his feckless mealy mouthed car salesman like affirmations and assurances of purity makes me want to take my computer and throw it out the window........
And just the sight of that swine bred Donhue anymore makes me ill!! Listening to his feckless mealy mouthed car salesman like affirmations and assurances of purity makes me want to take my computer and throw it out the window........
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Gambino
Guest
redsamurai said:
watch the dala lama clip bro
pretty interesting
good debate hr/jg
redsamurai
Banned
Gambino said:
why should I? so I can shown more human impotence and corruption? I've had enough of that for one day.
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Gambino
Guest
redsamurai said:
i'd rather know then remain ignorant
but either way, i think you are talking it too personally.
you can still respect mother t and d.lama
if anything, i do more so cause i know they are imperfect as i
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heatherrae
Guest
Well, now, in part I would agree with redsam. More should have been done with the money. The catholic church loves to build lots of fancy buildings. I don't agree with that practice. However, I don't think that makes Mother Theresa bad. I think she was a pious woman who spent her time raising money for the poor, tending to the poor, etc. If the church didn't spend it the way it should have been spent, I think that is a prime example of bureaucracy gone amuck. I don't think it points to Mother Theresa being a nefarious character in any way, though.
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Gambino
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heatherrae said:
agree, but it does question her alleged saintlyness (sp)
saints are held to a higher level of scrutiny, no?
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heatherrae
Guest
I have repeated 2 or 3 times that I'm not arguing whether she should be a saint or not. Hell, I don't know. I'm not Catholic. If they want to call her a saint, I don't care one way or the other...lol. I'm sure that all the other saints were just as human as she was, although I'm no expert, by far on Saints.Gambino said:
I just took offense to the original piece which demonized her, in general. The content of the piece was not an argument on whether or not she becomes a saint.
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heatherrae
Guest
Gambino said:
Not that imperfect, urchin.
GoldenDelicious
New member
i completely disagree.heatherrae said:
anyone making any sort of argument should be judged based on the merits of their argument and nothing else.
having a clean rap sheet doesnt make you right. it often just means youre a better scammer, to keep it clean in the first place.
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redsamurai said:
very succint and i agree wholeheartedly
redsamurai
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Gambino said:
we all have our personal imperfections.............but when it's institutional?? I mean fuck me, listening to MT talk about how her people are suffering and how it brings them close to jesus and how de facto it brings her closer............well, it's just sick. She was almost using these people's suffering as a way for her own spiritual advancement...............I'm sorry, but that's not human anymore............if you want to call that "imperfection'....so be it............I call that evil
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heatherrae
Guest
the argument was twisted in that piece. It is a common saying that "the meek shall inherit the earth." I think what she is saying that through their suffering, the poor can better relate to the suffering of Christ. Do I agree with her? No. Do I think she was evil -- so far from it.redsamurai said:
redsamurai
Banned
heatherrae said:
well, given the fact that she could have elleviated alot of that suffering with the 50 million dollars she was given that couldn't be accounted for.......and also the fact that it really seemed like "she got off" on their suffering in some way...............yeah, I think it borders evil. She obviously wasn't right in the head, it's also obvious she was being used terribly............so I guess I'll recind judgement till I know more..........but certainly there's something VERY VERY VERY foul with her story, and I'm glad P&T point it out..........cause mainstream media won't.
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heatherrae said:
I dunno Ms PregoRae... I was with you until this point. If she KNOWINGLY diverted money FROM the poor in order to keep them impoverished for some sick sort of "enlightenment and spirituality" that SHE believed could only come from poverty, then I would say she was more than evil.... I would say she truly was a megolomaniac as then she played God.
But who is to know?
One would think that the Catholic church would be IN A HYUGE hurry to open up the accounting to clear Mother Theresa's name from such a horrible charge.
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Gambino
Guest
in the same token, this is only one side of the coinredsamurai said:
penn and teller just provide one side...you'd really have to see both arguements side by side to make a sound call on mother T IMO
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heatherrae
Guest
That is a ridiculous statement that they made. Did they present any PROOF at all that she diverted any money from the poor? NO. Despite all their crazy allegations and speculation, they didn't show any misappropriation by Mother Theresa. Do you think she has the checkbook to the Catholic Church? I don't know how much control that she had, where the money was spent, etc. NEITHER DO PENN & TELLER or the crackpots in that video. They presented 0 evidence, and everyone is so quick to jump on her as some evildoer. I think the only EVIDENCE that I have ever seen was to her selfless devotion to the church and to the poor.BIKINIMOM said:
They twisted a very common sentiment in Christian religion about suffering to their own liking. Truth is, I'm sure she saw more suffering than all of us on ef will ever see in our collective lives. When faced with that sort of suffering, the only way to deal with it is to try to make some sense of it. For her to say that those who suffer are closer to God, to me, speaks to her big heart. That is the way she found to make sense of all the suffering that she had seen. Just like when we see our loved ones suffer and die and then imagine that they are with God when they die. We need that to face the suffering. I can relate to what she said and why she said it.
redsamurai
Banned
Gambino said:
they brought up enough for me to see the vatican greasy little fingers in all of it..........I need not see the other side............cause the other side say's..."look what we did with that money, we furthered christianity throughout the godless pagan realms and brought them real salvation"...........
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heatherrae said:
Oh I dont think for one second that she was any sort of mastermind and I believe she probably didnt have much control.
My opinions about Mother Theresa haven't changed to be honest. I just thought that some interesting questions were raised and I should wonder if this will ever be resolved.
We all know how dirty scandal is... Sad, sad, sad.
redsamurai
Banned
heatherrae said:
you think she didn't know about the 50 million dollars? She used that money to build up her ministries and nunneries around the world.............so I have to assume she had some control over how that money was spent. Remember, these donations weren't to the catholic church per se, they were to her...........but the correct insinuation, IMO, is that the money was funneled to the church. Alot of non catholics gave money to her because they beleived in her ministry and hoped that money would be spent alleviating the suffering of her people...........as it turns out it looks like suffering is what she wanted as some sort of spiritual thing for her...........I don't know, I have no answer for that notion........it's so outside my moral and ethical ethos that I just............just.................well..........whatever.
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And for the record, I never really thought much about her one way or another as I was raised protestant. For us it always seemed odd that ANYONE would give up family life to *serve*. The way I was raised that you can still serve God and have a family.
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heatherrae
Guest
mere speculation on your part. You really have no idea about the finances of the charities or the church.redsamurai said:
You also have no idea what work those nuns were doing in the nunneries. I doubt they just sat on their asses all day. They normally do lots of good charity work.
Plus, I don't think anyone was mislead to think that donating to MOTHER THERESA was not affiliated with the Catholic Church.
Really people, do you have any good evidence before you lambast this woman who died penniless and with nothing but her good name? Man, you people are quick to deride a person based on speculation and nasty rumor.
javaguru
Banned
The second author Penn and Teller interviewed on their show was a physician working for Mother T's charity. Hitchens, a legitimate journalist, actually interviewed numerous former employees about the conditions. In the interview with him that I posted earlier he said enough people came forward after he published the book for him to write a volume II. Mother T's charity didn't publish any form of financial documentation, unlike other charities. Consumer watch groups will advise people to only give to charities that publish their financial information because not doing so is a sign of a scam....heatherrae said:
javaguru
Banned
As far as all the money going into the general operating fund of the Catholic Church.... This was money her charity controlled.....
"HITCHENS: Well, I have the testimony of a former very active member of her Order who worked for her for many years and ended up in the office Mother Teresa maintains in New York City. She was in charge of taking the money to the bank. She estimates that there must be $50 million in that bank account alone. She said that one of the things that began to raise doubts in her mind was that the Sisters always had to go around pretending that they were very poor and they couldn't use the money for anything in the neighborhood that required alleviation. Under the cloak of avowed poverty they were still soliciting donations, labor, food, and so on from local merchants. This she found as a matter of conscience to be offensive.
Now if that is the case for one place in New York, and since we know what huge sums she has been given by institutions like the Nobel Peace committee, other religious institutions, secular prize-giving organizations, and so on, we can speculate that if this money was being used for the relief of suffering we would be able to see the effect. "
"I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds.
I think the answer to questions about her wealth was given by her in an interview where she said she had opened convents and nunneries in 120 countries. The money has simply been used for the greater glory of her order and the building of dogmatic, religious institutions. "
"HITCHENS: Well, I have the testimony of a former very active member of her Order who worked for her for many years and ended up in the office Mother Teresa maintains in New York City. She was in charge of taking the money to the bank. She estimates that there must be $50 million in that bank account alone. She said that one of the things that began to raise doubts in her mind was that the Sisters always had to go around pretending that they were very poor and they couldn't use the money for anything in the neighborhood that required alleviation. Under the cloak of avowed poverty they were still soliciting donations, labor, food, and so on from local merchants. This she found as a matter of conscience to be offensive.
Now if that is the case for one place in New York, and since we know what huge sums she has been given by institutions like the Nobel Peace committee, other religious institutions, secular prize-giving organizations, and so on, we can speculate that if this money was being used for the relief of suffering we would be able to see the effect. "
"I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds.
I think the answer to questions about her wealth was given by her in an interview where she said she had opened convents and nunneries in 120 countries. The money has simply been used for the greater glory of her order and the building of dogmatic, religious institutions. "
javaguru
Banned
Mother T was considered an extremist in the Catholic Church.....but she was also an opportunist.....
"By the way, there is an interesting angle to that which has not yet appeared in print. During the Divorce Referendum the Irish Catholic church threatened to deny the sacrament to women who wanted to be remarried. There were no exceptions to be allowed: it didn't matter if you had been married to an alcoholic who beat you and sexually assaulted your children, you were not going to get a second chance in this world or the next. And that is the position that Mother Teresa intervened in Ireland to support.
Now shift the scene: Mother Teresa is a sort of confessor to Princess Diana. They have met many times. You can see the mutual interest; I'm not sure which of them needs the other the most. But Mother Teresa was interviewed by Ladies Home Journal, a magazine read by millions of American women, and in the course of it she says that she heard that Princess Diana was getting divorced and she really hopes so because she will be so much happier that way."
"By the way, there is an interesting angle to that which has not yet appeared in print. During the Divorce Referendum the Irish Catholic church threatened to deny the sacrament to women who wanted to be remarried. There were no exceptions to be allowed: it didn't matter if you had been married to an alcoholic who beat you and sexually assaulted your children, you were not going to get a second chance in this world or the next. And that is the position that Mother Teresa intervened in Ireland to support.
Now shift the scene: Mother Teresa is a sort of confessor to Princess Diana. They have met many times. You can see the mutual interest; I'm not sure which of them needs the other the most. But Mother Teresa was interviewed by Ladies Home Journal, a magazine read by millions of American women, and in the course of it she says that she heard that Princess Diana was getting divorced and she really hopes so because she will be so much happier that way."
javaguru
Banned
FI: There is a Roman Catholic doctrine about the redemption of the soul through suffering. This can be seen in Mother Teresa's work: she thinks suffering is good, and she doesn't use pain relievers in her clinics and so forth. Does she take the same attitude towards her own health? Does she live in accordance with what she preaches?
HITCHENS: I hesitated to cover this in my book, but I decided I had to publish that she has said that the suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering.
FI: A horrible thing to say.
HITCHENS: Yes, evil in fact. To say it was unChristian unfortunately would not be true, although many people don't realize that is what Christians believe. It is a positively immoral remark in my opinion, and it should be more widely known than it is.
She is old, she has had various episodes with her own health, and she checks into some of the costliest and finest clinics in the West herself. I hesitated to put that in the book because it seemed as though it would be ad hominem (or ad feminam) and I try never to do that. I think that the doctrine of hating the sin and loving the sinner is obviously a stupid one, because its a false antithesis, but a version of it is morally defensible. Certainly in arguments one is only supposed to attack the arguments and not the person presenting them. But the contrast seemed so huge in this case.
It wasn't so much that it showed that her facilities weren't any good, but it showed that they weren't medical facilities at all. There wasn't any place she runs that she could go; as far as I know, their point isn't treatment. And in fairness to her, she has never really claimed that treatment is the point. Although she does accept donations from people who have fooled themselves into thinking so, I haven't found any occasion where she has given a false impression of her work. The only way she could be said to be responsible for spreading it is that she knowingly accepts what comes due to that false impression.
FI: But if people go to her clinics for the dying and they need medical care, does she send them on to the proper places?
HITCHENS: Not according to the testimony of a number of witnesses. I printed the accounts of several witnesses whose testimony I could verify and I've had many other communications from former volunteers in Calcutta and in other missions. All of them were very shocked to find when they got there that they had missed some very crucial point and that very often people who come under the false impression that they would receive medical care are either neglected or given no advice. In other words, anyone going in the hope of alleviation of a serious medical condition has made a huge mistake.
I've got so much testimony from former workers who contacted me after I wrote the book, that I almost have enough material to do a sequel.
HITCHENS: I hesitated to cover this in my book, but I decided I had to publish that she has said that the suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering.
FI: A horrible thing to say.
HITCHENS: Yes, evil in fact. To say it was unChristian unfortunately would not be true, although many people don't realize that is what Christians believe. It is a positively immoral remark in my opinion, and it should be more widely known than it is.
She is old, she has had various episodes with her own health, and she checks into some of the costliest and finest clinics in the West herself. I hesitated to put that in the book because it seemed as though it would be ad hominem (or ad feminam) and I try never to do that. I think that the doctrine of hating the sin and loving the sinner is obviously a stupid one, because its a false antithesis, but a version of it is morally defensible. Certainly in arguments one is only supposed to attack the arguments and not the person presenting them. But the contrast seemed so huge in this case.
It wasn't so much that it showed that her facilities weren't any good, but it showed that they weren't medical facilities at all. There wasn't any place she runs that she could go; as far as I know, their point isn't treatment. And in fairness to her, she has never really claimed that treatment is the point. Although she does accept donations from people who have fooled themselves into thinking so, I haven't found any occasion where she has given a false impression of her work. The only way she could be said to be responsible for spreading it is that she knowingly accepts what comes due to that false impression.
FI: But if people go to her clinics for the dying and they need medical care, does she send them on to the proper places?
HITCHENS: Not according to the testimony of a number of witnesses. I printed the accounts of several witnesses whose testimony I could verify and I've had many other communications from former volunteers in Calcutta and in other missions. All of them were very shocked to find when they got there that they had missed some very crucial point and that very often people who come under the false impression that they would receive medical care are either neglected or given no advice. In other words, anyone going in the hope of alleviation of a serious medical condition has made a huge mistake.
I've got so much testimony from former workers who contacted me after I wrote the book, that I almost have enough material to do a sequel.
javaguru
Banned
They are entertaining, they bring joy to people......Stefka said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qQX-jayixQ
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See, Penn and Teller aren't claiming sainthood.
THAT is the difference here.
THAT is the difference here.
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Stefka said:
As I have said, perhaps any outrage should lie with them for their ill-thought notion to put her in that position.
redsamurai
Banned
If penn and teller expose more of this filth and hypocrisy, that's as noble a service to mankind as it gets. I will salute anyone who properly exposes the hypocrites, the liars, the filthy vermin of our world who do nothing but chain us to old myths and legends. This was what real journalism was supposed to be about........protecting the consumer from the scammers.
Stefka said:
I thought it was in the pudding?
javaguru
Banned
HR, go back to first year of law school and read Larry Flint Vs Falwell. If you're a public person you are subject to greater scrutiny, critique and ridicule. Secondly, you make a no basis claim for her good works....all hearsay...She let dying people die.......and self admittedly endorsed suffering? Contrary to your assertion, people who have met and worked for her claimed her endorsement of suffering and actually "know" her. Hell, Hitchens actually met Mother T unlike you. I think it's generally accepted people prefer not to suffer and the dying prefer pain meds over suffering........ Your personal attacks on me just show your true colors and lack of a valid argument....stick to the facts. You know next to nothing about me or my relationships.....heatherrae said:
BTW, my ex wife called me the,"The smartest and kindest person I've ever known."
Stefka said:
Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's probably for the better, I can't handle the truth
I think its against the law to quote yourself bro.
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javaguru said:
I gotta say this quote is fairly damning. What would have possessed her to say something like that?
I've been poor and homeless but nothing like the lot of these people. Hell, I had it easy. And I can tell you there is NOTHING christly, holy or wonderful about being poor or suffering. Anyone who thinks that is mentally ill.
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heatherrae
Guest
I don't find that quote damning at all. I have been both very rich in my life and very poor. I've been so poor that hunger was an issue and we had to stay up in shifts at night to watch for rats. Mother Theresa can't cure all of world hunger and all the suffering in the world. She does what she can. Then she has FAITH. That is something that you aren't grasping, JG. She has faith in god that the suffering will be short lived compared to eternal life and that it will bring them closer to god. Is she correct? I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. However, it doesn't matter if she is right or not. She did the most she could to assuage the suffering of those who she could help.javaguru said:
I guess because she didn't cure all of world hunger, she is a crook now?
Seriously, give up the tirade on Mother Theresa. You look like one of the crazy fanatics that you so desperately dislike, only on the other side of the fence.
javaguru
Banned
HR, her missionaries didn't use pain killers and she disagreed with birth control, because of her faith.She had a suffering kink that she felt everyone else she "helped" should feel. I can have an objective opinion about how you should treat dying people...pain killers are one of the things I agree with....heatherrae said:I don't find that quote damning at all. I have been both very rich in my life and very poor. I've been so poor that hunger was an issue and we had to stay up in shifts at night to watch for rats. Mother Theresa can't cure all of world hunger and all the suffering in the world. She does what she can. Then she has FAITH. That is something that you aren't grasping, JG. She has faith in god that the suffering will be short lived compared to eternal life and that it will bring them closer to god. Is she correct? I'm not arrogant enough to think that I know all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. However, it doesn't matter if she is right or not. She did the most she could to assuage the suffering of those who she could help.
I guess because she didn't cure all of world hunger, she is a crook now?
Seriously, give up the tirade on Mother Theresa. You look like one of the crazy fanatics that you so desperately dislike, only on the other side of the fence.
redsamurai
Banned
I think she could have fed some people with 50 million......no? Ah well.........I'm willing to admit that hitchens and P&T may not have the full story either........she could have been a vatican puppet...........but what does appear to me to be obvious now, is that she was a very simple minded person who probably really beleived that what she was doing was somehow spiritually beneficial to these people. My father had lived in calcutta for a short period of time and he did describe to me what that place was like..........at about 6am people would walk through the streets and jostle all the bodies with a stick to see who was really dead and who wasn't, then they would pack up all the dead in wagons. So yes, things weren't any better outside of mother theresa's hospices...........and the woman would personally wash and bathe these people with her bare hands.....and these people according to my father were just living in their own exrement. So I do respect her work.......but I can't wrap my head around the matter of all the money she raised. Heather, in a prior post you stated that people who gave her money knew that they were giving to the catholic church and all it's works around the globe.........I'm not so sure. I'm sure we all remember the late night infomercials that show starving Indian children and imploring us to give money to help MT and her ministry...............and I'm sure that people who then wrote a check pretty much had the notion that their money would predominantly go to what they were seeing on their television screens. I'm sure that if you broke them down a pie chart showing what percentage of their dollar actually went to Indian people and their respective hunger........they might not have given, cause it seems like the majority of each dollar went to ministries around the globe that yes, ministered to poor, but were mostly recruiting outposts. I mean look at the one in new york........not that there's not poor in new york............but c'mon, that was a recruiting job. If I give money to a charity, I expect at least half of every one of my dollars to actually go to charitable work. I understand that people have to get payed, that's why I'm flexible..........but if you knew the facts about 501c3's.........and that with most non profits it comes down to a couple pennies that are actually going to the poor..........you might not be apt to give money. I've been exposed to some obscene 501's here in america...........you wouldnt' beleive how much money those people took for themselves.........it's government sponsored theft!! So if you told me that 2-3 cents out of my dollars were going to the poor and the rest to vatican coffers..........I'd say fuck no eh? It really seems like that woman could have had a budget of a couple million a year............you can't imagine what that would have done for the poor of calcutta................but politics are politics, even in religion.
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heatherrae
Guest
Really are you getting all your information from that crackpot journalist? You really don't know fuckall about her life. A suffering "kink." Yeah, okay. According to a crackpot journalist and an ex-nun who was so obviously gay. I don't have anything against gay people, but my guess is our little disgruntled nun finally came out and quit the nunnery and has a chip on her shoulder now.javaguru said:
Of course she didn't hand out birth control. She was a nun! Pain killers? I'm not sure nuns are qualified to administer narcotics.
I know you are so far morally superior to her and know exactly how everyone should be helped when they are suffering and dying. So, why aren't you in India picking those people up off the streets and doing anything with them? Oh, but you are so quick to cast dispersions.
When it comes right down to it, she spent her entire life trying to help people. You seem to be spending yours trying to tear others down.
Mother Theresa always said "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."
JG, you are part of the problem.
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heatherrae
Guest
I never saw an infomercial with Mother Theresa in it. If you did, we must not be watching the same programs. For God's sake, her very name is "MOTHER THERESA" DUH!!!! CATHOLIC OBVIOUSLY!redsamurai said:
And, all this speculation about money being spent on this and that is merely speculation and nasty rumor based on some loser journalist trying to make a name for himself by saying things so completely sensational and outrageous. He makes me sick.
When my mother was dying of cancer. I had her in a hospital bed in my living room. She went from a beautiful woman to a skeleton in a matter of weeks. I could not feed her or give her water for a week before she died. When you are dying, the ability to eat and drink shuts down. She had bedsores b/c we couldn't move her without her screaming in agonizing pain. The guilt was overwhelming. DEATH ISN'T PRETTY! I'm sure her friends criticized me plenty that I could have done more or done things differently. Truth is, at least I fucking did SOMETHING all the time. I did what I thought she wanted and what was best. In the end, I probably killed her with all the morphine I gave her for the pain. So, I'm more monstrous than Mother Theresa. I'm a murderer.
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