Matrix and Marxism Reloaded

[Krazykat]

Quote 2thick

"Neo= Adam of Zion
Agent Smith= racist capitalist pig
Zion= bastion of multiculturism
Cipher= rat-like Neo-Nazi
Trinity= conflicted feminist...Eve of Zion
Morpheus= father figure... he says to Neo "If you are not one of us, you are one of them."...sound familiar?
Oracle= mother figure
All agents= stoic, sadistic white men...not real so their demise is without guilt
Matrix= capitalism and its slave-like control over the people...with the evil neo-Nazi racist agents whipping them into conformity"

Hmm interesting 2thick, I remember this post. Just saw the film so dug it up to see what you said. I think the film is completly about Marxism but you got almost all the characters wrong.

What are you going on about with racist neo-Nazi`s for?!!?!?
Do you know what a neo-Nazi is? The film is not predominantly about racism as you stress although it is a part of it.

Here is my take.
If you know Marxism well, then this will all make sense.

Programs = ruling class ideologies/institutions.
Neo= Initially though to be the messiah, but Neo himself realises that religion (the oracle) is actually just another false ideology
created by the ruling class.
French guy and friends = bourgeoise / ruling class.
Agents = agents of capitalism, those that help support it.
Architect = creator of capitalism (looks like Colonel Saunders, symbolic of KFC Captialist pigs ) - Neo is the result of a flawed program or strucutre of society. Capitalism cannot prevent some people from realising the truth of its oppression and control.

The agents and architect are all white males to symbolise how power is concentrated predominantly in white male hands.

The film has a very strong deterministic view of humans. We cannot make choices for they are simply the result of the life we lead, every influence upon us makes us the people we are. And so our choices are nothing more than the sum of our influences.

The most we can do is try to understand our choices although even this is not a choice.

Also note how Neo and Trinity are very similar. Similar height, size, skin colour and so forth. They are androgonous characters.


All in all I really enjoyed the film, and almost completly goes with my own philosophies.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

For me,the bottom line is,love or hate it,it makes you THINK...When is the last time a film has stirred up so much philosophical discussion?It's a great,thinking person's film.

 

[HS Lifter]

Marxist propaganda!

The Wizard of Oz stirred up some good philosophical discussion.

But it still sucked.

 

[rushx79]

i cant count how many different interpretations i have seen of this movie. and just about every one of them makes sense.

 

[Krazykat]

Yes but I am right

 

[atlantabiolab]

Quote 2thick

"Neo= Adam of Zion
Agent Smith= racist capitalist pig
Zion= bastion of multiculturism
Cipher= rat-like Neo-Nazi
Trinity= conflicted feminist...Eve of Zion
Morpheus= father figure... he says to Neo "If you are not one of us, you are one of them."...sound familiar?
Oracle= mother figure
All agents= stoic, sadistic white men...not real so their demise is without guilt
Matrix= capitalism and its slave-like control over the people...with the evil neo-Nazi racist agents whipping them into conformity"

Hmm interesting 2thick, I remember this post. Just saw the film so dug it up to see what you said. I think the film is completly about Marxism but you got almost all the characters wrong.

What are you going on about with racist neo-Nazi`s for?!!?!?
Do you know what a neo-Nazi is? The film is not predominantly about racism as you stress although it is a part of it.

Here is my take.
If you know Marxism well, then this will all make sense.

Programs = ruling class ideologies/institutions.
Neo= Initially though to be the messiah, but Neo himself realises that religion (the oracle) is actually just another false ideology
created by the ruling class.
French guy and friends = bourgeoise / ruling class.
Agents = agents of capitalism, those that help support it.
Architect = creator of capitalism (looks like Colonel Saunders, symbolic of KFC Captialist pigs ) - Neo is the result of a flawed program or strucutre of society. Capitalism cannot prevent some people from realising the truth of its oppression and control.

The agents and architect are all white males to symbolise how power is concentrated predominantly in white male hands.

The film has a very strong deterministic view of humans. We cannot make choices for they are simply the result of the life we lead, every influence upon us makes us the people we are. And so our choices are nothing more than the sum of our influences.

The most we can do is try to understand our choices although even this is not a choice.

Also note how Neo and Trinity are very similar. Similar height, size, skin colour and so forth. They are androgonous characters.


All in all I really enjoyed the film, and almost completly goes with my own philosophies.

In our earlier debate you argued that Marx, and yourself, believed in the rational, free-willed nature of man, which I knew to be false. Yet here you are claiming the true reality of Marxism, which is determinism and the inability of man to freely choose.

Answer this: if man cannot truly choose, with any certitude, since he is not capable of objective truth due to the cultural, political climate of his times, then how can you claim this philosophy as correct? How can you make an objective choice, if this is not possible due to cultural, political influence?

 

[Krazykat]

Actually Marx believed in the rational free willed nature of man.

I don`t! I am a determinist, but not just an economic one. One completly.

Your critism would be valid against postmodernism since that ideology defies the notion of any rational, valid truth. All truths are equally valid or invalid.

It is not a choice that I state my philosophy. Understand it is not cultural or political influence but rather this.

Every moment of our lives since we were born determines the people we are. Any choice, thought, action, anything is simply the sum of our previous life experiences. Where does choice come in? What is the x factor?

As for objective truth, this is not dependant on choice for it exists outside of human consciousness in some way. Men though are capable of objective truth through their lives leading them to such.

Marxists belive there is an objective truth, and for that matter they tend to belive in choice and rationality. But as I said this is not my belief.

In fact it is because of my lack of choice that I see my philosophy as so.

Choice is an illusion, this is not Marxist I stress again. But my OWN view amongst others.

 

[Krazykat]

Let me re stress my point.

Man cannot choose because he is the result of his life, not the cultural, political climate of his times per se although this is a part of it. Rather it is every moment in his life, everything that makes hum what he is.

Man is capable of objective truth through having a life that leads him to such.

Man can make an objective (illusionary) choice.

 

[Krazykat]

bump comrade

 

[plornive]

Let me re stress my point.

Man cannot choose because he is the result of his life, not the cultural, political climate of his times per se although this is a part of it. Rather it is every moment in his life, everything that makes hum what he is.

Man is capable of objective truth through having a life that leads him to such.

Man can make an objective (illusionary) choice.

Would you agree that a person's actions are the result of his life and his properties (biological and conscious)?

Why don't we play a semantic game and say that individual choice is defined as an action based predominantly on...
1. a person's properties AND/OR
2. a certain subset of a person's outside influences

This definition is effectively what people mean by individual (possibly rational) choice, regardless of ultimate causality.

It's about local vs. systemic control. In my view there is local control and systemic control. I can see both. I agree with Krazykat's views in that system control happens to an extremely large degree (I won't get into why I believe this in this post). However, I prefer individuals to be responsible for themselves (in the face of systemic control) to a large degree.