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Marijuana Kills

mrplunkey said:
I believe for the vast, vast majority of users, pot diminishes initiative and lessens clarity of thought. Now if by "initiative" you mean playing X-box, eating a whole large pizza and watching "How High" for the 1,383th time, then you might have a point.



You're not going to make the whole "pot makes me creative" argument are you? I guess those Hollywood script writers really need all that cocaine to create too.

Guess what, a lot of recreational drugs (not just pot) make you think you are more creative or that your mind is working faster -- but they don't. Rest assured that if pot made you more creative or cocaine made you more efficient, big business would have successfully lobbied it into legal status and there would be joint and blow dispensers on the walls of every cubicle.

And then of course there's LSD, which is supposed to expand your mind overall...

And as far as taxes... yeah, you're right we don't treat everyone the same. One person can stay pot (and other drugs) free, go to school, graduate at the top of their class and go earn a great living. And another guy can become a stoner in high school, drop-out, and become a bum so he can be "creative" smoking pot full-time. Sad thing is, the wage earner will be forced to subsidize the pothead. Do they drug test the second guy before the first guy is forced to pay him? Nope. Do they cut the second guy's money off after his second or third drug conviction? Nope. Its just a systematic subsidization of one lifestyle by another lifestyle.
your correlations are still false. I grew up thinking the same thing.

- pot makes you a stupid and slow
- stoners are losers
- you'll ruin your life if you do drugs

I can understand preaching this to children to scare them the fuck away, children don't have any business with these things in my opinion.

But the facts are quite contrary to the drug war propaganda. Pot doesn't "make you stupid" this has never been proven, alcohol actually damages the brain in a much more dramatic fashion, to the point where with enough habitual use an abuser of alcohol will be unable to control their motor skills.

So I went off to college, where I was one of very few people who came from a lower middle class background. (Indulge me here, I try to give a lot of personal history just to show you where my particular world view comes from). I met Indian people (from India) for the first time in college, as well as my first non fillipino asians. And let me tell you at my college (consistently ranked in the top 50 overall and top 10 public schools) there were a lot of different ethnicities, but surprisingly not all that many different economic backgrounds. Many people came from priveledge. Many people went to private schools.

So I meet my roommate, he's this jewish dude from LA. His moms a school teacher (and get to meet a lot of celebrity parents that way) his dad is a lawyer who has his own firm. Multimillionaires basically. And yes, you guessed it, pot users! They didn't tell their son though until he came to them our freshman year and told them he tried pot (in my room). I waited until the 2nd half of the year to do because I still felt like only losers did it. Until I got to college that was pretty much what the evidence I saw told me as well. But in college I all of a sudde met people who where near geniuses who binge drank, did pot, xtast, coke, anything they could get their hands on even! I'm like dude! How do you pass your classes? They would say things "I blazed up before my SATs!" "oh yeah, what did you get?" "1500" I felt lame with my stone sober 1350.

Anyway, the reality of it is, since college, I've never met a loser pot smoker. Why? Because I generally hang out with college educated, gainfully employeed people. I've met doctors, lawyers, and executives that use pot. This really boggled and blew my mind. I also felt (yet again) lied to. If pot really did make you stupid, then why on earth are these intelligent, successful professionals using it. Something didn't add up, and it didn't take very long to figure out why.

I switched my major to bio psychology and spent a year studying the effects of drugs on the brain and people's behavior. I'm talking college courses taught by M.D.s and Ph.D.'s. I also did a semester of study on alcohol and its effects on asians vs whites. People amazing stuff. We did experiments where we gave people different levels of alcohol and ran them through all sorts of tests and monitoring. I can go into that further if you like but the research was very promising, and aimed at eliminating alcohol abuse/alcoholism.

So yes, I can see where you are coming from, because a lot of money has been spent to convince people that pot indeed makes you stupid and unmotivated, but there have been medical studies done that yield results quite to the contrary. one reason that the goverment lists marijuana as schedule 1 is because its very difficult to get funding for schedule 1 substances as they have "no medical benefit." If we ever did start studyin marijuana in great depth with long term studies I think some of the evidence would really blow people away (and embarass a lot of the pioneers of the "war on drugs").

Marijuana had a long time (hundreds of thousands of years ) to destroy human culture and civilizaion, and it didn't. It only became a source of such debate (and demonized so much) in recent years. Again I'll repeat, this was very deliberate propagana, and also, very baseless. The supposed effects of Marijuana on human brains came from a SINGLE study on primates, and there were only 7 of them, and some of them died of unrelated causes before the study was over. They measured the size of the brains before and after the study and since the brains weighed less after the study was over, it was assumed that marijuana causes brain damage. This is 100% false. In humans and primates after a cerain age (for humans its 2 for primates its earlier) the brain does die, and lose size/weight and continues to do so until you die. This isn't evidence of drug abuse, this is evidence of the natural aging process of the brain.

The fact is, there are MANY drugs that are available LEGALLY by prescription that have much great effects on the brain, specifically keenes of the senses and motivation. Have you heard of benzodiazapenes? They cause people to effectively "care less" about things in the users world/mind. Also classes of drugs reduce people's ability to feel certain ranges of emotion. Of course this is supposed to be a good thing for the people they are prescribed for, but blood letting was also considered good for people when administered by a Dr. because some people reported that they felt better afterwards.

if you want to talk LSD, that's a whole different discussion, it works on the brain in a completely different way than THC/marijuana. I've never done it and don't plan on it, although I have done mushrooms and really didn't think they were much of a big deal.

Ironically in my own life, my salary is strong correlated with my marijuana use. Also my bench press for a long time was correlated with it too. So for me, and granted I'm just one person and can't speak for everyone, I can note great effects that I partly attribute to marijuana. It is great when you have no appetite and are trying to bulk. Its great when you have a high stress job or class and need some down time to relax and/or sleep. Its good for some people who have anxiety. My Ashtma syptoms are far better since I became a regular marijuana user. The list goes on and on.

When i first started smoking weed in college I was real nervous that it changed me, changed my brain. I'd ask friends if they noticed anything different. I'd take IQ tests and what not to see if my mental acuity had changed. If anything I'm smarter now than I was when I first started smoking, mostly because I know a hell of a lot more about myself and the rest of the world.

I guess that you could make the argument that had I never touched a joint I'd be even MORE successful, but that is pure speculation and could be said about almost anything. I can also say that maybe I wouldn't have gotten to where I am today without it.
 
Lestat said:
your correlations are still false. I grew up thinking the same thing.

- pot makes you a stupid and slow
- stoners are losers
- you'll ruin your life if you do drugs

I can understand preaching this to children to scare them the fuck away, children don't have any business with these things in my opinion.

But the facts are quite contrary to the drug war propaganda. Pot doesn't "make you stupid" this has never been proven, alcohol actually damages the brain in a much more dramatic fashion, to the point where with enough habitual use an abuser of alcohol will be unable to control their motor skills.

So I went off to college, where I was one of very few people who came from a lower middle class background. (Indulge me here, I try to give a lot of personal history just to show you where my particular world view comes from). I met Indian people (from India) for the first time in college, as well as my first non fillipino asians. And let me tell you at my college (consistently ranked in the top 50 overall and top 10 public schools) there were a lot of different ethnicities, but surprisingly not all that many different economic backgrounds. Many people came from priveledge. Many people went to private schools.

So I meet my roommate, he's this jewish dude from LA. His moms a school teacher (and get to meet a lot of celebrity parents that way) his dad is a lawyer who has his own firm. Multimillionaires basically. And yes, you guessed it, pot users! They didn't tell their son though until he came to them our freshman year and told them he tried pot (in my room). I waited until the 2nd half of the year to do because I still felt like only losers did it. Until I got to college that was pretty much what the evidence I saw told me as well. But in college I all of a sudde met people who where near geniuses who binge drank, did pot, xtast, coke, anything they could get their hands on even! I'm like dude! How do you pass your classes? They would say things "I blazed up before my SATs!" "oh yeah, what did you get?" "1500" I felt lame with my stone sober 1350.

Anyway, the reality of it is, since college, I've never met a loser pot smoker. Why? Because I generally hang out with college educated, gainfully employeed people. I've met doctors, lawyers, and executives that use pot. This really boggled and blew my mind. I also felt (yet again) lied to. If pot really did make you stupid, then why on earth are these intelligent, successful professionals using it. Something didn't add up, and it didn't take very long to figure out why.

I switched my major to bio psychology and spent a year studying the effects of drugs on the brain and people's behavior. I'm talking college courses taught by M.D.s and Ph.D.'s. I also did a semester of study on alcohol and its effects on asians vs whites. People amazing stuff. We did experiments where we gave people different levels of alcohol and ran them through all sorts of tests and monitoring. I can go into that further if you like but the research was very promising, and aimed at eliminating alcohol abuse/alcoholism.

So yes, I can see where you are coming from, because a lot of money has been spent to convince people that pot indeed makes you stupid and unmotivated, but there have been medical studies done that yield results quite to the contrary. one reason that the goverment lists marijuana as schedule 1 is because its very difficult to get funding for schedule 1 substances as they have "no medical benefit." If we ever did start studyin marijuana in great depth with long term studies I think some of the evidence would really blow people away (and embarass a lot of the pioneers of the "war on drugs").

Marijuana had a long time (hundreds of thousands of years ) to destroy human culture and civilizaion, and it didn't. It only became a source of such debate (and demonized so much) in recent years. Again I'll repeat, this was very deliberate propagana, and also, very baseless. The supposed effects of Marijuana on human brains came from a SINGLE study on primates, and there were only 7 of them, and some of them died of unrelated causes before the study was over. They measured the size of the brains before and after the study and since the brains weighed less after the study was over, it was assumed that marijuana causes brain damage. This is 100% false. In humans and primates after a cerain age (for humans its 2 for primates its earlier) the brain does die, and lose size/weight and continues to do so until you die. This isn't evidence of drug abuse, this is evidence of the natural aging process of the brain.

The fact is, there are MANY drugs that are available LEGALLY by prescription that have much great effects on the brain, specifically keenes of the senses and motivation. Have you heard of benzodiazapenes? They cause people to effectively "care less" about things in the users world/mind. Also classes of drugs reduce people's ability to feel certain ranges of emotion. Of course this is supposed to be a good thing for the people they are prescribed for, but blood letting was also considered good for people when administered by a Dr. because some people reported that they felt better afterwards.

if you want to talk LSD, that's a whole different discussion, it works on the brain in a completely different way than THC/marijuana. I've never done it and don't plan on it, although I have done mushrooms and really didn't think they were much of a big deal.

Ironically in my own life, my salary is strong correlated with my marijuana use. Also my bench press for a long time was correlated with it too. So for me, and granted I'm just one person and can't speak for everyone, I can note great effects that I partly attribute to marijuana. It is great when you have no appetite and are trying to bulk. Its great when you have a high stress job or class and need some down time to relax and/or sleep. Its good for some people who have anxiety. My Ashtma syptoms are far better since I became a regular marijuana user. The list goes on and on.

When i first started smoking weed in college I was real nervous that it changed me, changed my brain. I'd ask friends if they noticed anything different. I'd take IQ tests and what not to see if my mental acuity had changed. If anything I'm smarter now than I was when I first started smoking, mostly because I know a hell of a lot more about myself and the rest of the world.

I guess that you could make the argument that had I never touched a joint I'd be even MORE successful, but that is pure speculation and could be said about almost anything. I can also say that maybe I wouldn't have gotten to where I am today without it.

I'm somewhat familiar with neuroscience myself. I recieved my Ph.D. from Vanderbilt in Electrical Engineering in 1992 -- but my disertation was in neuroscience (cortical spike sequencing, to be more specific). So yeah, I've had (and taught) those same neuroscience classes too.

There are plenty of studies out there that document decreased blood flow and functional impairment with marijuana use. Your google is as good as mine. And before you post an article saying pot helps something, please filter out "High Times" and "Cannabus News" as credible sources. Probably the only credible good news is its use in the treatment of fringe diseases and/or the fact that it doesn't appear to do permanent damage (except to grade point averages and careers).

And we've all known a bright (or brilliant) person who smoked pot and still did well. And we all know a guy who ate horribly and stayed thin. And we all know a guy who smoked cigarettes all his life and lived to 95 too. Anecdotal stories are data points -- and a data point does not a scientific study make.

Let's work with the ridiculous premise that pot doesn't impair and demotivate everyone. Let's even say it doesn't impact 1 in 5 people. So you're willing to throw the other 80% of the masses in the dumpster for your own enjoyment of a frivolous recreational drug? That doesn't sound very "greater good" to me. Maybe those poor downtrodden people in the projects need fewer tax dollars and more drug enforcement...
 
enigma4dub said:
what about the cannabinoid receptors that all humans have?

All humans have opiate receptors too. Does that mean we should start handing-out black tar heroin?
 
mrplunkey said:
I believe for the vast, vast majority of users, pot diminishes initiative and lessens clarity of thought.

Wait, we're actually arguing this? I thought the purpose of ingesting recreational drugs was for intoxication?

(Entymology intoxication, root toxic, cf. poison, etc etc)



... and anyone else find it really obvious who uses weed in this thread? It's kinda humerous...



:cow:
 
samoth said:
Wait, we're actually arguing this? I thought the purpose of ingesting recreational drugs was for intoxication?

(Entymology intoxication, root toxic, cf. poison, etc etc)



... and anyone else find it really obvious who uses weed in this thread? It's kinda humerous...



:cow:

I'm enjoying the part where the "for the greater good" crowd can't dump a recreational habit that helps keep millions of people imprisoned in poverty and crime.
 
mrplunkey said:
I'm enjoying the part where the "for the greater good" crowd can't dump a recreational habit that helps keep millions of people imprisoned in poverty and crime.

i just cant see where you are coming from.. in my world alcohol is so much worse.
 
enigma4dub said:
i just cant see where you are coming from.. in my world alcohol is so much worse.

I've never said alcohol isn't bad. I've never even said pot should or shouldn't be illegal. I have, however, said that anyone concerned with the downtrodden or proselytizing the virtues of helping the greater good could probably best start by not funding and fueling a drug that plays a major role in making them downtrodden in the first place.
 
mrplunkey said:
I've never said alcohol isn't bad. I've never even said pot should or shouldn't be illegal. I have, however, said that anyone concerned with the downtrodden or proselytizing the virtues of helping the greater good could probably best start by not funding and fueling a drug that plays a major role in making them downtrodden in the first place.
And based on the evidence, I do not think marijuana production or usage plays a significant role in any "downtrodding" of society, to the contrary, I think it greatly adds to the ability of humans to enjoy their own existance.
 
Lestat said:
And based on the evidence, I do not think marijuana production or usage plays a significant role in any "downtrodding" of society, to the contrary, I think it greatly adds to the ability of humans to enjoy their own existance.

Then you're ignoring more evidence than Pat Roberson does to form his beliefs on creationism.

You yourself have cited education as a key factor to success. If I plat search long enough, I think I can even find where you feel higher education should be a right (please correct me if I'm wrong on that point).

Given that, here's what NIH says about Marijuana and school:

-----------------------------

Adolescent Marijuana Use and School Attendance.

Roebuck MC, French M, Dennis ML; AcademyHealth. Meeting (2003 : Nashville, Tenn.).
Abstr AcademyHealth Meet. 2003; 20: abstract no. 87.

AdvancePCS, Metrics & Analytics, 11350 McCormick Road, Exec. Plaza II 9th Floor, Hunt Valley, MD 21031 Tel. (41) 229-8382 Fax (410) 785-8140

RESEARCH OBJECTIVE: Several economic studies have linked educational attainment with drug use (Cook & Moore, 1993; Yamada, Kendrix, & Yamada, 1996; Dee & Evans, 1997; Bray, Zarkin, Ringwalt, & Qi, 2000). None, however, has looked at partial attendance or examined different frequencies of drug use in these equations. This paper explores the relationships between adolescent marijuana use and both school dropout and truancy. STUDY DESIGN: The analysis predicted adolescent school dropout and, conditional on being enrolled, estimated the number of days truant in the past 30 days. Dropout and truancy were estimated using four models. Along with individual and family characteristics, Model 1, the core model, included a single binary measure of any marijuana use during the past year. Model 2 segmented marijuana users into two discrete groups: chronic marijuana users with weekly or more frequent use during the past year, and non-chronic marijuana users with less than weekly use during the past year. Model 3 controlled for other drug use by adding a dichotomous measure of any drug use other than marijuana during the past year to Model 2. Finally, Model 4 augmented Model 3 with a measure of any alcohol use in the past month. The potential endogeneity of marijuana use was tested in all specifications. POPULATION STUDIED: Data pooled from the 1997 and 1998 National Household Surveys on Drug Abuse were used to form a sample of 15,168 adolescents aged 12-18 who had not completed high school. PRINCIPAL FINDINGS: The results indicate that any marijuana use was positively associated with school dropout and truancy in all models. However, when chronic marijuana use (weekly or more frequent) was distinguished from non-chronic marijuana use (less frequent than weekly), chronic marijuana use was found to be the dominant factor in these relationships. These results prevailed even after controlling for other drug and alcohol use. CONCLUSIONS: A general conclusion from this research is that all marijuana users are more likely to be school dropouts and, conditional on being enrolled in school, skip more school days relative to non-marijuana users. Weekly or more frequent marijuana use (chronic) had a larger positive marginal effect on school attendance than less than weekly marijuana use (non-chronic). Indeed, when non-chronic marijuana users were distinguished from chronic marijuana users in the dropout equation, the marginal effect of chronic marijuana use was more than four times the marginal effect of non-chronic marijuana use. IMPLICATIONS FOR POLICY, DELIVERY OR PRACTICE: This study has several important implications for educators, substance abuse treatment providers, and policymakers. First, all levels of marijuana use were associated with increased truancy and dropout. The fact that higher frequencies of use showed larger marginal effects than lower frequencies of use further strengthens the claim that adolescent marijuana use is associated with increases in school attendance problems. Second, these analyses suggest that "one size fits all" prevention programs are probably inappropriate. While general prevention programs may be sufficient for non- or even low-frequency users, high frequency users may require more intensive early intervention or even brief treatments. Furthermore, reaching these more chronic users via school-based programs may be problematic given these adolescents attend school much less than their peers.

-------------------------
Cliffs notes: The more you smoke, the greater your chances of attendance problems and/or dropping out of school.

How can a drug that denies someone of their basic rights (your right to an education) also add to their ability to enjoy their own existence?
 
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