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Low volume high intensity training

hardrock

Go fuck your own face!
Platinum
Ok I know this should be on the training board, but it doesn't get enough action. I want as many opinions on this as I can get.


I am changing up my routine so I will hit 2 body parts per workout 3 times a week. I will be doing 2 warm up sets followed by 3 sets to failure(8-12 reps)for each body part. I want to know what the best split would be for maximum recovery, and also the 2 best excercises for each body part, as I will be alternating every other week.


All opinions welcome.
 
I was thinking something like this;
2 warmup sets for each body part, followed by 3 working sets to failure

Week 1

Mon- chest/back
Flat barbell
Bent over rows

Wed-legs/shoulders
squats
hammer strength presses

Fri- bi's/tri's
Preachers
skull crushers


Week 2

Mon- chest/back
incline barbell
reverse grip pulldowns

Wed-legs/shoulders
leg press
laterals

Fri-bi's/tri's
incline curls
over head 2 hand dumbell extentions


Note: calves, abs, and forearms will be done once a week also
 
You'd only be doing 3 working sets per body part per week...doesn't seem enough to grow...maybe to maintain.

Any reason you want to decrease volume so low? Maybe I'm missing something.
 
I've been doing alot of reading about high volume and over training lately. Some studies(read it on this site somewhere) have shown that 3 working sets to absolute failure on each set allows for better recoverey. It stated that most of us are over training, especially when off cycle.

Now when I start my next cycle I will increase volume to double or more. I am going to try it this way for at least a month first to see what my results are.
 
Unless it REALLY takes you a full week to recover from 3 sets to failure, then you are taking the HIT methodology WAY to far.

You will likely see regression, or at most just holding on to what you have. However, if you are currently in a state of overtraining that may not be totally true in the short term.
 
3 or 4 working sets to failure for each muscle group is what always works for me, as long as I'm going 5-8 reps on the big motions like deads, squats, etc. I train abs and calves differently... but I train everything else HIT style and it is much better than overtraining.
 
Tim-what body type are you, and what does your split look like? Also what are your stats? Have you been doing this long?
 
Hard rock.........you have made the wisest decision of your training career! Low volume with high effort and infrequent training on the basics is the way to go for best results.
It is also important to focus on progressive poundages adding small amounts of weight to the bars each week. Intensity should be a secondary focus but not primary...this is important!
Also many men cannot train with ULTRA intensity even while on roids so be very careful here.

You could go as high as 4-6 working sets while on roids but three would be good too. You could also workout as frequently as every other day on a three way split instead of Mon-Wed and Fri ....but ONLY while on juice and even then you need to be in tune with your body and if it proves to be too much then cut back to Mon-Wed-Fri.

While off roids you want to stick to three work sets and be careful with training to the point were you get stuck in a rep or pushing even further. While natural end a set at the point where you cannot do another good rep and if you tried you would likely get stuck. If is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to focus on adding small amounts of weight to the bar each week. Small to tiny increases. Also, lowish reps seem to allow for this better. The 2.5 pounders are too much too add wheh the going gets tough.
get some tiny plates www.fractionalplates.com


It is best to keep chest and tri's together and back and bi's together to allow for best recovery.
Shoulders can be done on a different day than chest BUT should be done second in the week. ie; Chest/tri's on Monday and shoulders on Wednesday with legs/low back on Friday.

Check out this good thread on my comments on training for mass.
Do a search for "Important info on volume and intensity"

I have been training for 25 years and have done EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN. I have done best by far with low volume, infrequent high effort routines on the big basic movements. I got to a 475 bench, 750 Squat and 800 deadlift in this way.

Take a look at how powerlifters and Olympic lifters train even while on gear..they train with much less volume than most bodybuilders and many of them are HUGE.

Seems like Arnolds way of high volume and many days in the gym is still alive and well even after 30 years... and this is why most men fail to get big and strong and many even quit in frustration.

The glossy magazines ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT for the most part UNLESS you are a genetic freak and on large amounts of gear.

Best book on training for the steroid user is "A Warriors Story" by Dorian Yates. Frequency and intensity has to be limited from his approach though while training naturally.
Even Dorian said that he couldn't train all out for more than 6 weeks at a time, after which he still used low volume but didn't train so hard.

Best of luck

RG


:)
 
Good info bro!! How long have you been training this way, and do you ever get stale?



Anyone else have experience with this?
 
You have made a good decesion hardrock because I know for a fact low volume high intensity works. Ever since I started it 3 months ago, I have been making steady gains. Ive gained 20 pounds SOLID. I use rest pause sets for biceps, triceps, delts, traps, and some back excercises like close grip pulldowns and bent over rows, and some chest like dips and machine flys. If im doing benches Ill do 2 working sets to failure of 2 exercises, incline and decline. For squats ill do one set for 20 LONG reps. For deads ill use 2 working sets of 10.

I don't see why I would have to do 12 + sets a body part to get my muscle to grow. I was SO rediculously overtrained when I used the high volume method. My muscle is either going to grow or its not going to grow. When I do my 1-2 sets or rp set im telling my muscle to grow, and given all the rest I get it GROWS, every time. I think a lot of guys are overtraining.
 
Shifti- what are the best mass movements for each bodypart when only doing a few sets? Also please explain rest pause sets.
 
hardrock, I'm not trivializing your back problem, or doubting its legitamacy in the least. But, I've had 2 crushed discs in my lower back since '95 and of course I was told that I could NOT do squats or anything resembling a deadlift. I've spent may hours curled up in a little ball in insane amounts of pain, not to mention hobbling around with a cane occasionally. A few years ago, I tried the empty bar, and I'm now pulling 545 and stiff-legging 405 for reps off a block. I've built erectors like granite pillars. I believe deads are the best thing I've ever done for my back. Without them, I would have had surgery by now and been much smaller. Just want to point that out, because I would hate it if you fell into the same trap as I did, thinking you couldn't do them. Just a thought man:)
 
hardrock said:
Shifti- what are the best mass movements for each bodypart when only doing a few sets? Also please explain rest pause sets.


Be sure to do hyperextensions for the back at least....and they will help in rehab. Do 3 slow sets of 12-15 with weight and hold at the top for a count.

Rest pause reps...a favorite of Dorian Yates....take a set to failure or at least until the last rep is the very last rep you can complete.....then put the weight down for 10 seconds...then pick it up and do more reps...put it down and rest again for 10 and then do more reps. Do this three times max.
They work very well for curls and calves especiallya lthough they work well on almost all exercises. Don't do this too much or you will over train.

Best exercises for mass

Chest.....dips with elbows out or declines. Try this.....hold your arms out straight in front of you and extended and then contract the pecs....now move the arms DOWN at about a 45-60 degree angle...notice how much stronger the contraction is. The fuction of the pecs is to bring the arms across the front but also to bring the arms DOWN.

Lats....palm up chins or pulldowns. This grip places the bi's and lats in their strongest pulling position.
Rows with a curl grip ie: Yates rows.

Upper mid back.....Deadlifts and rows. Row strictly and try to hold the weight in the fully contracted position with low back arched a bit.....same for pulldowns etc.

Shoulders.....seated overhead presses to the front. Bench set at about 80-85 degrees.

Bi's....regular curls
Tri's....close grip benches with a grip about 15 inches apart(elbows in) OR dips with elbows IN, either free dips or machine.

Low back....regular or stiff leg deads

Hams...stiff leg deads

Quads...DEEP squats or DEEP leg presses at least but squats are better
Abbs ...hanging kne ups curling torso up to chest.
Traps...shrugs and dealifts
Calves...donkeys but I also like raises in the leg press machine.

Focus on adding small to tiny amounts of weight to the bars weekly as this is KEY. The goal is NOT intensity but progressive poundages...intensity will come along with the very hard work done. www.fractionalplates.com

I have been training in this low volume high effort way for 22 years ever since Mike Mentzer. I did drift from it a couple times due to brainwashing from the glossy mags but I only became stale with high volume and gained NOTHING.

Everyone will go stale from time to time bro. You need to cycle your training intensity. You cannot train all out all the time. Even Yates couldn't train all out for more than 6 weeks after which time he backed off but still used heavy weights and low volume on the basics.
After you can no longer add even 2 pounds per week to the squat and 1 pound per week to the bench and half pound to presses etc then end the cycle and take 7-10 days off. Then start again with about 90% of your previous bests for the rep range used. Sometimes one can go for months with tiny progressive weight increases and keep growing and sometimes only 6 weeks or so....if you are still able to add small amounts of weight to the bars then you are still gaining and there is no need to stop.

Listen to your body....if you are tired then DO NOT train...take another day off..you will not shrink trust me.

RG



:)
 
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Thai- I hear what you're saying bro. I probably should give them a try again, I've just been hurt so much lately that I'm trying to avoid risk of injury.

Realgains - How does your volume change while "on" ?
 
hardrock said:
Thai- I hear what you're saying bro. I probably should give them a try again, I've just been hurt so much lately that I'm trying to avoid risk of injury.

Realgains - How does your volume change while "on" ?

Up to 5-7 working sets per bodypart while "on" but usually only 4-6 working sets ....3-5 or less working sets per bodypart while off.

One can do a hell of a lot with only 2-3 sets of full squats for 10 reps IF you really gring them out and go deep.

RG
 
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Low volume high intensity is definately the way to go. I used to do 20 sets per body part, but have cut back to 4 sets to failue now and am making great gains. My currently split is:
Tuesday
deadlift
palms up lat pulldowns
incline bench
military press

Friday
leg press
toe press on leg press machine
close grip press
preacher curl

I always start with a very high rep set and take it to failure. then pyramid up on every set. Every time I go into the gym, I am able to either add a little weight on each lift, or am able to get extra reps with the same weights. I've also found rest pause to be very effective, though I don't take 10 or 15 seconds. Usually when I hit failure, I take 2 or 3 seconds to catch my breath, then squeeze out2-4 more reps, once I fail I take a couple more seconds and am sometimes able to squeeze out one more. I'm now up to the point where I am inclining and closing grip 405, deadlifting 675, and leg pressing 1350 all for reps. On the leg press I always get at least 20, so I'm thinking of trying to talk people into climbing up on the slide for more resistance.
Currently I'm 5'9" 226 ibs (not sure of body fat but I can see my abes) with just under 3 years of training.
 
Yeah I've made awesome gains in size and strength from only twice weekly full-body workouts and I've never done heavy duty stuff like test or dbol, yet ;) I usually do squats in one and trapbar deadlifts in the other. Only do big compound compound movements also. Don't focus on insane intensity tatics like negatives and dropsets as these will result in overtraining even on most sane cycles. Personally I like the 5x5 system for upper body and 3x8 for lower body as my legs and lower back are simply too strong for my body weight (495lb squat and 565 dl @ 190lbs) Another thing to play around with is a death-set of 20 reps in either the squat or the deadlift. A single 20 rep set with your 10 rep weight done on a trapbar may be the single most result prodcuing excercise on the planet, IMHO. Also remember heavy shrugs (without working your calves :) ), as these will help you shoulder big weights in the squat. Good luck though and you have made a very wise decision, most bodybuilding routines have it all wrong in my opinion.
 
I've said it b4 and I'll say it again...pick up Mike Mentzer's ''Heavy Duty II: Mind and Body''. This is the BBer's bible advocating the low volume, high intensity approach. Works for EVERYONE,regardless of genetics....
 
I have been thinking about starting on this kind of program. I am just not getting the kind of results I want with my current program. What would the split look like?
 
Yea I used to overtrain really bad. I just started needsize's 5x5 workout and I absolutely love it. I would like to try the workouts you guys are talking about but I just enjoy going to the gym too much to do such a short workout and spend so many days away. Im currently going to the gym 5 days a week and making really good gains. Def low volume high intensity though.
 
BigRed, here's my split;

Day 1- Chest, anterior delts, and tri's
Day 2-off
Day 3- quads, hams, low back, medial delts, calves
Day 4-off
Day 5-upper back, traps, bi's and forearms
Day 6- off
Day 7-off if necessary otherwise repeat cycle
Abbs done twice a week
All bodyparts are 2-5 sets to failure

I love this split, and if you do it correctly you won't miss those extra days in the gym.
I just started a cycle last monday and will probably shorten this split by doing a three on one off split.
 
Here's my split, been doing it for a long time and continue to make great gains from it.

Day1: Shoudlers/Arms
Day3: Legs/Lower Back/Abs
Day5: Chest/Back/Calves


Chest/Back are done in compound sets (1 set chest, 1 set back, 1 set chest, 1 set back, etc), Arms are also done in compound sets.

Total sets per muscle:
Chest/Back/Quads: 9 sets to failure each
Shoulders: 3 sets presses, 3 sets side raises, 3 sets rear lateral, 3 sets shrugs, all to failure
Arms/Cavles/Abs/Hamstrings: 6 sets each to failure
Forearms: 5 sets to failure
Lower Back: 3 sets heavy (125lb d-bell) hyperextentions to failure
 
Do you guys think the Mentzer heavy duty method is still relevant today? He advocated very few sets- like 1-2 right? I hear allot of guys on here bad mouth Mentzer.

I have been running a program pretty close to the Needsize 5x5 with some tweaks. I haven't been seeing really great gains but I am not losing muscle either. I am trying to cut right now. Need to lose that little bit of fat around my waist. So, I should be looking for around 3-5 set per bodypart? Some of you suggest higher. Currently I do around 9 set per bodypart. Shit, I am still sore from deadlifts I did 3 days ago. I had really bad sciatica for over a year and it just recently went away. I am trying to be really careful with my back. I still stick to leg presses because of that. It would be nice to be able to squat again. Maybe soon.
 
BigRedCat said:
Do you guys think the Mentzer heavy duty method is still relevant today? He advocated very few sets- like 1-2 right? I hear allot of guys on here bad mouth Mentzer.

I have been running a program pretty close to the Needsize 5x5 with some tweaks. I haven't been seeing really great gains but I am not losing muscle either. I am trying to cut right now. Need to lose that little bit of fat around my waist. So, I should be looking for around 3-5 set per bodypart? Some of you suggest higher. Currently I do around 9 set per bodypart. Shit, I am still sore from deadlifts I did 3 days ago. I had really bad sciatica for over a year and it just recently went away. I am trying to be really careful with my back. I still stick to leg presses because of that. It would be nice to be able to squat again. Maybe soon.


The scientific approach (Mentzers method) will never change,and will always be relevant...
 
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