Lifting program for cutting?

[soze78]

Can anyone recommend a good weight lifting program to use while cutting? I am eating ~500 cals below maintenance and do cardio at least 4 mornings a week. I am looking for something that will help me hold on to as much muscle as I can while losing fat. Right now, I am around 300lbs @ 27% BF. I would like to lose 50lbs of fat. Thanks for reading.

P.S. I asked a similar question on the Diet board when I had some question about my diet. I am just trying to get all the info I can so I can do it right the first time!

 

[Cynical Simian]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=448248

 

[gymtime]

I don't think you need to do any special type of workout for cutting. You can do pretty much any standard workout you want to. I'd just spend a little less time between sets and not worry about lifting the heavy stuff for now. Other than that, cutting is going to be 90% diet.

Also, imo, the 5x5 lends itself more to a bulking cycle, simply because the set and rep ranges are relatively low. However you can still make it work if you want to use it while cutting.

 

[Protobuilder]

I disagree. Don't turn your weight lifting sessions into cardio sessions by trying to use higher reps or shorter rest times. In fact, you'd want to stay w/ max strength range reps (e.g., 5-ish) in order to send signals to your body that it needs to KEEP its muscles while you diet. If you stop lifting heavy, your body won't be as likely to hold the extra (e.g., unnecessary) muscle. Keep in mind that you're eating below maintenance so something's gotta' go! Make sure it's the fat!

Now, that said, don't look to necessarily set new PRs. Just keep the weight heavy.

Basically, if you're lifting heavy, keep doing it. But don't revamp your training program JUST b/c you're cutting. Keep the weight heavy. If you're currently doing high volume, think about reducing the volume so you're not taxing your glycogen stores so much, and as a trade off, bump up the weight/reduce the reps. Just keep it heavy.

 

[gymtime]

Normally I'd agree with that, but not for someone at 300lbs and at 27% bf. With all the am cardio your doing, combined with calorie depletion, you're going to have to sacrifice some muscle. The trick will be to minimize that as much as possible.

IMO, virtually any type of workout you do is going to help maintain muscle mass. And I'm not suggesting you do 10-14 rep sets with 30 seconds in between. I agree that that is not going to help you. However, I think if you stick to a standard 8-12 or so rep range, and don't wait too long between sets, you're better off (in terms of your current goals) than to try to lift for size. I think that should come later once your diet is more sound and once you've shed some weight.

 

[soze78]

Normally I'd agree with that, but not for someone at 300lbs and at 27% bf. With all the am cardio your doing, combined with calorie depletion, you're going to have to sacrifice some muscle. The trick will be to minimize that as much as possible.

Do you think 4 mornings a week is too much cardio; I planned on mostly doing them on the days that I wasn't going to be lifting? Also, if I did go with something in the 8 rep range...would it be ok to stick with the compound exercises and do full body workouts 3 times a week (M,W,F)?

Bench 3 x 8
Squat 3 x 8
Military press 3 x 8
Bent over rows 3 x 8
Reverse hypers
Decline curls

Then once I shed some weight switch over to something like the SF 5x5 program? How does this look?

Thanks for all the replies

 

[soze78]

I tried to get some help from a PT at the gym I workout at, but I don't think I got very good advice. I am definitely no expert, but it didn't look very good at all to me. It had mostly isolation exercises in it, and all of them were 4 sets (15,12,10,8). It was also split with a chest/back day, shoulder/arms, and a leg day. He told me that lifting heavy for lower reps was for building strength and would not work well for trying to lose fat. I have read several different places that you need to lift heavy so your body hangs on to the muscle that you have while cutting (basically what proto said a few posts up).

Anyways, sorry for all the noob questions...as I said earlier, I'm just trying to get it right the first time. Thanks again.

 

[Protobuilder]

Hell yes! That looks like a great option for cutting. Do the cardio, on non-cardio days, do weight training (8 reps is a good range), and stick w/compounds so you're hitting the most muscles w/ the fewest exercises.

One thought -- you may consider doing 2-3 cardio sessions a week for now, and see what happens. That way, when you stop dropping weight, you can add in another cardio session (brining you up to 3-4) instead of having no other options but dropping cals again. The point being, if you've already maxed out the cardio, you've got nowhere to go when you stop losing fat other than dropping cals. And you can drop cals for a while but eventually you'll be so low that (1) your metabolism will work against you, and (2) you'll lose muscle easily b/c you just aren't eating enough. I'd use as little cardio as possible to get the job done. When it stops getting the job done, add in more cardio. When that stops working, drop your cals a little, and maybe go back to 2-3 cardio sessions again . . . and repeat. Basically, if you can keep your cals high, it's better to do so.

Or you can just run your ass off, eat reasonalbe amounts of food, and watch the fat drop off quickly, but you'll risk losing muscle too. How much "muscle" is under that 27%? If not much, then screw it. Lose fat quick. Then return to building muscle once you've leaned up.

I was 27% in July, BTW. Didn't "feel" like it but I was. I took the slow, careful route and lost maybe 4 pounds of LBM and am at about 16% right now. I think that's decent progress. Not great but not terrible either.

 

[soze78]

Or you can just run your ass off, eat reasonalbe amounts of food, and watch the fat drop off quickly, but you'll risk losing muscle too. How much "muscle" is under that 27%? If not much, then screw it. Lose fat quick. Then return to building muscle once you've leaned up.

I don't believe that there is a whole lot of muscle. I have a big frame to start with (6'4" 38" waist), size 15 foot, broad shoulders ;p I carry the weight well, or so I've been told. I'm not real soft and flabby, just big all over But, for my size...I think I am very weak, maybe my muscles just haven't been trained properly yet What would be the losing it quick alternative, very low calories and lots of cardio? Maybe a very low carb diet (Atkins)? Would losing it fast leave me with lots of extra skin hanging around?

BTW, congrats on your progress so far...Looks like you've got your body figured out!

 

[gymtime]

Losing 11% in 6 months is decent? Dude that's more than respectable. Great work.

Soze - I agree with pb. I'd go two or three days of am cardio for now, and make sure you eat something before. Preferably maybe an oatmeal/mrp mixture. Don't do it on an empty stomach. Have one day where you eat right, as always, but don't excercise. Don't forget the importance of rest and recovery.

I'm concerned that you might be doing too much too soon here and you're at risk for early burnout. Again I'd focus primarily on what you're eating. That will have the biggest impact on your success at this point.

As for the workouts, I've never been a fan of full body workouts, but that's really up to you right now, long as you're doing something consistently. I'd say get a routine down now, shed some weight, you can tweak it later.

 

[gymtime]

I don't believe that there is a whole lot of muscle. I have a big frame to start with (6'4" 38" waist), size 15 foot, broad shoulders ;p I carry the weight well, or so I've been told. I'm not real soft and flabby, just big all over But, for my size...I think I am very weak, maybe my muscles just haven't been trained properly yet What would be the losing it quick alternative, very low calories and lots of cardio? Maybe a very low carb diet (Atkins)? Would losing it fast leave me with lots of extra skin hanging around?

BTW, congrats on your progress so far...Looks like you've got your body figured out!

There is no quick alternative to diet and excercise. This is going to take some time for you. You have a lot of work to do. Don't worry about how fast it will come off or extra skin right now. Focus on what you need to do to get started. Worry about that stuff when the time comes.

I would not suggest and adkins diet for you. You need carbs for all the work you'll be doing. You just need to learn the good from the bad.

 

[Protobuilder]

Losing 11% in 6 months is decent? Dude that's more than respectable. Great work.

Thanks. Nice to hear someone say it. I don't know what's good and whether I should've done better. I'm not done yet, but taking a 6 week break.

soze78 -- I had the impression that you were a big powerlifter type but if you're relatively new to lifting period, then some of this may be a lot to take in all at once. You can't just tell someone who's never really been in shape to just start doing heavy squats. I don't want to give you bad advice. There may be other reasons that you aren't at the stage where you can just jump into heavy, compound lifting. That complicates the plan I discussed earlier. LoL

I don't think you need Atkins or anything of that sort. Like gymtime said, it will take some time and it will be a lifestyle change really, if you're serious. You gotta' learn to choose healthier foods, eat less, get moving more, etc. The good news is, you're one big dude! If you really are only 27% BF and weigh 200, that's a lot of lean mass underneath still. So if you get down to a decent BF%, you'll have an awesome frame to work from! And you are weak right now but don't sweat it -- you're untrained. If you get into this stuff, you will find that you'll probably turn out to be quite strong. But it will take time. There are no viable shortcuts.

 

[soze78]

Well, I've had it checked by 2 different people recently because the first one was from the PT I mentioned earlier and I really didn't know if I could trust it. Both tests were the skin fold test (I believe it's called) they pinched 3 or 4 different spots on my body with calipers to figure it out. I guess he was good for something! So the 3 x 8 routine in post#6 and 2-3 off day cardio sessions seem like a decent place to start?

Both of you guys have been a HUGE help, thanks a lot for your patience!

 

[gymtime]

Thanks. Nice to hear someone say it. I don't know what's good and whether I should've done better. I'm not done yet, but taking a 6 week break.

Been there myself, so I know what's involved in that kind of loss. Most guys can't pull it off.

So I gotta ask, why the long break?

 

[gymtime]

Well, I've had it checked by 2 different people recently because the first one was from the PT I mentioned earlier and I really didn't know if I could trust it. Both tests were the skin fold test (I believe it's called) they pinched 3 or 4 different spots on my body with calipers to figure it out. I guess he was good for something! So the 3 x 8 routine in post#6 and 2-3 off day cardio sessions seem like a decent place to start?

Both of you guys have been a HUGE help, thanks a lot for your patience!

Yeah that will work for now. And don't worry about your exact bf%. It's too high, that's all you need to know right now. Remember: diet diet diet.

 

[silver_shadow]

Well, I've had it checked by 2 different people recently because the first one was from the PT I mentioned earlier and I really didn't know if I could trust it. Both tests were the skin fold test (I believe it's called) they pinched 3 or 4 different spots on my body with calipers to figure it out. I guess he was good for something! So the 3 x 8 routine in post#6 and 2-3 off day cardio sessions seem like a decent place to start?

Both of you guys have been a HUGE help, thanks a lot for your patience!

i'd say make that 4x8. as for the cardio... here's how i suggest u do it. don't do one (or 2-3) long slow cardio sessions. get on the bike (or treadmill or whatever u use) and after an initial slow session where u get nice and warmed up, up the pace... to around 70% effort... hold it till u get winded and a little more time. now u REALLY have to stop because ur heart and lungs are saying enough. stop, rest enough so that u get ur breath back and get back to 70% and repeat as many times as it will take u to finish 30 mins from start to finish. trust me, a few weeks of this and u should see some awesome results. keep us posted on how it's going.

 

[Protobuilder]

I gotta ask, why the long break?

I was down to 2100 cals/day and going into the Christmas season, going out of town, etc., and figured I'd help my metabolism out by taking a break and that it'd be nice to not try and diet strict over Christmas/New Years. Also, I'm down to 170 and don't like the idea of being any skinnier, LoL, so wanted to see if I couldn't gain a pound or two of LBM during this 4-6 week mini-bulk phase. I've got a few weeks to go and then it's back to cutting.

 

[coolcolj]

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