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LETS get it straight TREN and sides!

R

Realgains

New member
Some think tren is particularily bad for the steroid user. They often say it will damage kidneys and cause all sorts of problems. I would like to clear this issue up once and for all.....

As far as steroids go YES they carry risk.....the #1 side BY FAR is the change they cause in ones lipid profile...ones hdl drops a lot and ldl goes up. The hdl to total cholesterol ratio gets very bad in all men.

The #2 side is liver damage . This is caused by long term use of 17 aa roids like anadrol, d-bol winstrol or any other 17aa roid. Most men know enough to limit 17aa roid use to 4 weeks at one time and allow for time off between cycles so liver damage is not seen that often with steroid use. That said there have been some men that have died from liver tumors and liver failure from steroid use...the late Dave Johns is an example ....but he loved anadrol and d-bol and used it far too much.

#3 side is high blood pressure. Caused usually by sky rocketing estrogen levels and the resulting water retention. This is an issue with the aromatizing gear.

Contrary to popular belief SHUT down comes very rapidly with any steroid use save for low does primo AND very few have trouble with long term HPTA receovery.

******NOW tren is bad for the lipid profile, as are all steroids and testosterone in high doses but less so than 17aa roids.

****** Tren is not hard on the kidneys and if it was then my creatine and BUN would have changed AND we would be hearing of young men hospitalized with acute kidney issues form tren use, especially in small town USA where tren is often the only steroid readily available...so where are all the horror stories? NONE!
I have always followed myself with blood work while "on" (19 years )and I have been using tren for 15 years and have done 100mg for 10 weeks stright many times...NEVER has my creatine and bUN levels climbed even slightly.

****** all steroids stress the liver to some degree but the 17aa roids are far worst.
17aa roids are so bad because the 17aa compound, which is there to protect the steroid form the gut, is hard on the liver. Also taken orally this compound enters the portal vein directly from the small intestine and travels directly to the liver for one "big hit "detoxification. Tren is not 17 aa and it is injectable so any liver stress will be spread out over a longer period of time.

********Tren almost never raises BP since it does not cause water retention. Testosterone and all the aromatizing gear are far worse.

What about hair loss......well you are going to get it if you have the genetics for male pattern baldness. Tren is strongest androgen that we use for muscle building reasons mg for mg and so it is is hard on the hair line in some but Testosterone is worst as it converts to the absolute strongest androgen and that is DHT.

What about gyno?........tren is progestogenic but I telling ya bro's it almost NEVER causes gyno. Usually what happens is a bro is taking an aromatizing roid or testosterone along with the tren...then they start to notice gyno so they hit the Nolvadex....gee they say, the gyno is getting worst....no kidding bro YOU WERE TOO LATE with the nolva. Be safe and always take nolva with aromatizable gear.


So is you are looking for bad sides then take d-bol and test together with no estrogen inhibiton or blockers...and boost the dose to a gram or more and believe me you will have sides! Better yet "chicken out" on injections and take anadrol, d-bol or halo for 10 weeks!

Best of health to you all. ....AND if you are going to worry about somthing then worry about your lipid profile...there are things you can do to help this while "on" but that will take another thread.

RG







The tren /kidney thing is a myth and it was started way back by the late Dan Duchaine. Before Duchaines comments NOBODY thought tren was hard on the kidneys. ITS A MYTH.
I have followed myself with blood work since strting roids almost 20 years ago. I have always checked liver enzymes, lipid profile and kidney function. NEVER have I had any problems with tren. NEVER has my BUN and creatine been elevated even slightly(Kidney fuction test) and I have taken 100 of tren for 10 weeks straight many times!

:)
 
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Fina may not lead to water retention, but, androgrens are strong cardiovascular STIMULANTS (and tren bieng the big daddy of androgens), BP can be raised this way. Unless you take beta blockers..
 
You forgot one side effect....uncontrollable itching from all the hives you get from that shit. lol I used 2 different kits and still the same result. Probably just me though...I have ZERO luck in life lol Great fucking post though brother
 
MuSuLPhReAk said:
I agree with you Realgains.
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My psa has gone up with tren/test cycles and test alone cycles but then went back down post cycle. I think test is probably the worst in this regard but tren will likely have some affect since it is a very strong androgen.....then again any steroid can affect the prostate.

Again the main and worst side for most users is a very shitty lipid profile.

RG:)
 
Twitched said:
Tren is the safest roid out there of course!
Click to expand...


There is no such thing as a safe steroid.....all carry very similar risks #1 of which is a shutty lipid profile. There is a pretty large gap between non 17aa roids and those that are 17aa though.

Sides largely depend on dose ....but here is a list.

Worst roids

#1 Anandrol due to its high concentration of 17aa compound and large dose needed for effectiveness. It is also highly progestogenic and can cause the same sides as aromatizing roids....ie: water retention and resulting high BP and more
Also a strong androgen.
**High estrogen and or progesterone levels are bad for the electrolyte balance

#2. Halo for same 17aa reasons but it doesn't aromatize and is not progestogenic....but it is a stronger androgen than testosterone

#3. D-bol for similar reasons to Anandrol accept it isn't progestogenic. Slightly better than halo or anadrol since less dose is needed

#4. Anavar and Winstrol as a tie.........both need high doses to be effective and are 17aa. Winstrol is particularily bad for the lipid profile for some reason.
Both are week androgens though
Wait a minute some will say.......are you really saying that mild out anavar is less toxic than tren and test? YES I am bro's and its due to its 17aa componen and the affect this compound has on the lipid profile and liver. My lipid profile and liver enzymes were far worse on anavar alone at 50 per day compaired with tren alone at 50 per day after weeks 4.
True test and tren will give worst androgenic sides like hair loss on the head and bodily hair growth, oily skin and acne but these are minor sides really.

#5.Testosterone in decent doses as it highly androgenic and converts to the worlds strongest androgen DHT.
Bad aromatizing properties leading to elevated estrogen levels and possibly high BP and electrolyte imbalances.

#6. Trenbolone acetate. It does not aromatize and is only slightly progetogenic BUT is is the strongest androgen mg/mg of all the muscle building roids or test........so we don't take 200 per day now do we.

NOTE:
Trest and tren are highly androgenic and as such are harder on the prostate than winstrol or anavar BUT prostate problems are fairly rare amoungst users and when they are its usually benign prostatic hypertrophy or minor infection.
If you already have cancer cells in the prostate then test or tren would be bad news, especially test , since protate cancer feeds off of testosterone and all androgens.(including anavar)




RG:)
 
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I forgot to cover the "I have kidney pain while on tren issue"

Tren gives very strong muscle pumps , especially in the low back. Often the bro has a very stiff sore lumbar region while on steroid. This is caused by that pump amd water retention and is actually far worse with test or aother aromatizing hormones.

True kidney pain is very rare and comes either after extensive damage or because of kidney stones. True kidney pain is felt VERY HIGH UP ON THE FLAKNS and usually radiates to the upper lateral abdomen as well.

True kidney pain IS NOT IN THE LUMBAR AREA!(low back region)

I suggest that to get your BUN and creatinine levels checked(kidney function test) while they have this pain in the back. I will bet my house that it is not kidneys at all. Your lipid profile will be a mess but your kidneys will be fine!

RG:)
 
bump for realgains-- good to see people out there looking at the information available objectively, and making recommendations based on their extensive experience.... and starting some good discussions along the way.

thanks---
 
Anavar being more toxic than tren?.....not in a million years....strictly speaking of lipid profile it MAY be worse, I don't know, I do know that I've read from ulter and others that Ox is used to help REPAIR damage from alcohol abuse. Ox is not significantly aggravating to the prostate, which is arguably a worse side effect than a temporary poor lipid profile that can be combatted.....Ox is a thousand times easier on the HPTA, will not cause virtually any of the androgenic sides of tren......I am NO expert on steroids, but one also has to wonder what sort of stress your CNS goes through when it's so stimulated that you can't sleep well if at all on tren. (of course that varies)

Also people DO get hives from tren, perhaps it is a strong immunosuppresant...? High Intensity as well as Pure Extract are two people who I can think of that have gotten hives from it.

Realgains I'm not flaming but to say that overall tren is safer than oxandrolone is ridiculous IMO...
 
Frackal said:
Anavar being more toxic than tren?.....not in a million years....strictly speaking of lipid profile it MAY be worse, I don't know, I do know that I've read from ulter and others that Ox is used to help REPAIR damage from alcohol abuse. Ox is not significantly aggravating to the prostate, which is arguably a worse side effect than a temporary poor lipid profile that can be combatted.....Ox is a thousand times easier on the HPTA, will not cause virtually any of the androgenic sides of tren......I am NO expert on steroids, but one also has to wonder what sort of stress your CNS goes through when it's so stimulated that you can't sleep well if at all on tren. (of course that varies)

Also people DO get hives from tren, perhaps it is a strong immunosuppresant...? High Intensity as well as Pure Extract are two people who I can think of that have gotten hives from it.

Realgains I'm not flaming but to say that overall tren is safer than oxandrolone is ridiculous IMO...
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****************************************************
I knew I would get some replies about the anavar thing so I am not surprised.

There is a myth going around the bodybuilding world that says that anavar is a very safe steroid. This is because people think it must be safe since its such a mild androgen. This is simply not true.
Also anavar is not so mild androgenically at decent muscle building doses. Sure it is mild if you waste you time and money on 20-30mg per day.....Anavar needs at least 40 to be half decent..half decent that is. Along with this 40 comes plenty of the toxic 17aa compound used to protect the hormone from the gut..........tren has NONE of this.

***Anavar used at a muscle building dose is harder on the liver due to is 17aa component, and it is harder on the lipid profile. These are the worst sides of steroid use.

Just because tren is a much stronger androgen doesn't mean that it is going to have a more lasting negative impact . Those androgenoic sides form tren may APPEAR worse simply because you NOTICE them but believe me the UNNOTICED or UNSEEN sides are far worse.ie: liver stress and a shitty lipid profile.
Having a shitty lipid profile for months on end several times per can indeed add up.

You may loose more hair from tren and get terrible ance but try this little experiment please....... Take 50 of anavar for 6 weeks and then get your lipid profile and liver panel done. Then wait for a couple months while on no steroids at all. Then take 50 of tren per day and repeat the blood work. I will bet my house that the anavar has your liver enzymes WAY higher than the tren and your lipid profile will be worse too.

I have used anavar alone and tren alone for cycles in the past and I have always followed myself with blood work. My hdl to total cholesterol ratio while on the anavar was TERRIBLE at 15 to 1!!!!!! That had my doc almost passing out! My liver enzymes were also through the roof.
With tren my lipid profile wasn't the greatest but nothing like with the anavar. Also only one of my liver enzymes was slightly elevated and it was the one that gets elevated form heavy exercise without steroids , that is AST. The best liver enzyme that indicates damage seems to be GGT and that was only10.

And I was on a perfect diet devoid of saturated fats, low cholesterol intake, high in Omega 3's, with tons of fiber and cardio for 30 minutes every other day... etc etc

Liver enyzmes while on ANAVAR 50 per day ...taken after week 4.
AST 120.....normals 10-36
ALT 110......normals 10-55
GGT 79......normals 0-50

Liver enzymes on tren after week 4
AST 50
ALT 49
GGT 10

Lipid profile while on ANAVAR after week 4
Total cholesterol 245!! Normals should be no more than 180 and preferably less than 165
HDL to total chol ratio 15:1!!!!!!!!!!!! should be less than 4.5 to one.

Lipid profile while on Tren at the end of week 4
Total chol...202
Ratio......6 to 1


Also my kidney function tests were normal(BUN and creatinine) while on tren BUT my creatine was up while on anavar!!! It was 145 and it should be less than 110!! That is nothing to worry about really, especially since my BUN was good, BUT while on the so called kidney toxic tren my creatine dropped to 80!

I did get more acne while on the tren though and lost no hair with either since i do not have the genetic predisposition for hair loss.

Don't be deceived by so called mild androgens...if they are 17aa!

RG





RG:):)
 
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Realgains man i love your posts, after absorbing the information i feel like a knowledge god. I only one day dream of become as intelligent and helpful as you. Every post of yours makes me go, oh thats why... or shit im a jackass... thanks man, kinda... damn it.
 
Sure that was Anavar your were taking and not anadrol LOL, just kidding bro. The hole issue with how liver toxic/kidneytoxic how you react, different values and so on are VERY individual. Sure liver/kidney detoxification suppliements help, but one must remember two people doing the same dose with the same oral steroid, boith eating and drinking the same, taking same suppliements etc could react very different. For one values could be ok, while values could be very high and not so ok for the other guy/girl.

My tren sides with oral fina 120mg ED(4 weeks): finadick, very very tired, sick pumps, dry skin, got angry much easier.

My tren sides with fina 60mg ED taken with DMSO(4 weeks): Same as above

My sides with inject. tren taken 75mg ED(4 weeks ½): Some joint pain. Painfull pumps. Actually had to leave the gym not being able to full fill my workout because of some sick lower backpain after deadlifts.
 
Realgains said:


****************************************************
I knew I would get some replies about the anavar thing so I am not surprised.

There is a myth going around the bodybuilding world that says that anavar is a very safe steroid. This is because people think it must be safe since its such a mild androgen. This is simply not true.
Also anavar is not so mild androgenically at decent muscle building doses. Sure it is mild if you waste you time and money on 20-30mg per day.....Anavar needs at least 40 to be half decent..half decent that is. Along with this 40 comes plenty of the toxic 17aa compound used to protect the hormone from the gut..........tren has NONE of this.

***Anavar used at a muscle building dose is harder on the liver due to is 17aa component, and it is harder on the lipid profile. These are the worst sides of steroid use.

Just because tren is a much stronger androgen doesn't mean that it is going to have a more lasting negative impact . Those androgenoic sides form tren may APPEAR worse simply because you NOTICE them but believe me the UNNOTICED or UNSEEN sides are far worse.ie: liver stress and a shitty lipid profile.
Having a shitty lipid profile for months on end several times per can indeed add up.

You may loose more hair from tren and get terrible ance but try this little experiment please....... Take 50 of anavar for 6 weeks and then get your lipid profile and liver panel done. Then wait for a couple months while on no steroids at all. Then take 50 of tren per day and repeat the blood work. I will bet my house that the anavar has your liver enzymes WAY higher than the tren and your lipid profile will be worse too.

I have used anavar alone and tren alone for cycles in the past and I have always followed myself with blood work. My hdl to total cholesterol ratio while on the anavar was TERRIBLE at 15 to 1!!!!!! That had my doc almost passing out! My liver enzymes were also through the roof.
With tren my lipid profile wasn't the greatest but nothing like with the anavar. Also only one of my liver enzymes was slightly elevated and it was the one that gets elevated form heavy exercise without steroids , that is AST. The best liver enzyme that indicates damage seems to be GGT and that was only10.

And I was on a perfect diet devoid of saturated fats, low cholesterol intake, high in Omega 3's, with tons of fiber and cardio for 30 minutes every other day... etc etc

Liver enyzmes while on ANAVAR 50 per day ...taken after week 4.
AST 120.....normals 10-36
ALT 110......normals 10-55
GGT 79......normals 0-50

Liver enzymes on tren after week 4
AST 50
ALT 49
GGT 10

Lipid profile while on ANAVAR after week 4
Total cholesterol 245!! Normals should be no more than 180 and preferably less than 165
HDL to total chol ratio 15:1!!!!!!!!!!!! should be less than 4.5 to one.

Lipid profile while on Tren at the end of week 4
Total chol...202
Ratio......6 to 1


Also my kidney function tests were normal(BUN and creatinine) while on tren BUT my creatine was up while on anavar!!! It was 145 and it should be less than 110!! That is nothing to worry about really, especially since my BUN was good, BUT while on the so called kidney toxic tren my creatine dropped to 80!

I did get more acne while on the tren though and lost no hair with either since i do not have the genetic predisposition for hair loss.

Don't be deceived by so called mild androgens...if they are 17aa!

RG

RG:):)
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Real Gains.......what's up bro :) I agree with most of what you said but I still think you're missing the point of Fracral's post. His point about strong androgens effecting the prostate is absolutely correct. With respect to "what side effects from AS are worse": prostate vs lipid profile.......Prostate problems take the cake.

Great info otherwise though.....:)
 
#4. Anavar and Winstrol as a tie.........both need high doses to be effective and are 17aa. Winstrol is particularily bad for the lipid profile for some reason.
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Nope.
Oxandrolone is the safest steroid by far and should never be compared to winny in terms of liver toxicity. You say that someone needs to use 50+ mg/day to build mass and I agree, but you actually need more than that to equal winny in building strength. The reason you need to take more is that 28% of the oxandrolone you take is excreted untouched by your liver. So you need to take at least 28% more Ox than Winny just have equal blood levels. But I don't agree that ox is dangerous to your liver at that dose.
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Here they used 80mg/day and saw liver values IMPROVE.

1: Am J Gastroenterol 1991 Sep;86(9):1200-8

A randomized, controlled trial of treatment of alcoholic hepatitis with parenteral nutrition and oxandrolone. I. Short-term effects on liver function.

Bonkovsky HL, Fiellin DA, Smith GS, Slaker DP, Simon D, Galambos JT.

Department of Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia.

The present studies were designed to provide careful measures of effects of oxandrolone, an anabolic steroid, intravenous nutritional supplementation, and the combination of these two treatments on liver functions, metabolic balances, nitrogen metabolism, and nutritional status in patients with moderate to severe alcoholic hepatitis. Of 43 patients originally recruited, 39 (19 men, 20 women) with typical clinical and laboratory features of alcoholic hepatitis (11 Child's-Pugh class B; 28 class C) were admitted to a metabolic unit and completed a 35-day three-phase protocol. Phase I was a 10-day baseline period of observation, during which routine and special quantitative tests of liver function (galactose and antipyrine metabolism), a 7-day elemental balance study, and a 15N, 13C-leucine metabolism study were done. Phase II was a 21-day treatment period during which patients were randomly assigned to receive one of four regimens: 1) standard therapy, consisting of abstinence, a balanced, nutritionally adequate diet, and multivitamins; 2) oxandrolone (20 mg orally four times a day) plus standard therapy; 3) nutritional supplementation, consisting of 2 L daily of 3.5% crystalline amino acids (in 5% dextrose), given by peripheral vein; or 4) a combination of oxandrolone and nutritional supplementation, along with standard therapy. Metabolic balances were repeated during phase II. Phase III was 2 or 3 days posttreatment, during which special studies of liver functions and volumes and leucine metabolism were repeated. All patients who completed phase I of study and were randomly allocated to one of the four treatment groups completed the subsequent two phases. Overall, with time, patients showed highly significant improvements in most clinical and laboratory features. For most standard laboratory tests (e.g., serum albumin, transferrin, prothrombin time) improvements were more marked in patients treated with nutritional supplementation and/or oxandrolone than in those given standard therapy alone. Liver volumes fell in all treatment groups, with greater improvement in those treated with nutritional supplementation. Improvements in galactose and antipyrine metabolism rates were significant only in those treated with nutritional supplementation or oxandrolone. Effects of treatments on metabolic balances, nitrogen metabolism, and measures of nutrition are described in this issue in a companion paper. We conclude that the addition of nutritional supplementation and oxandrolone to standard therapy of moderately severe or severe alcoholic hepatitis is well tolerated, and leads to more rapid improvement in the laboratory parameters measured.
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Here a woman who had been taking winny developed winny hepatotoxcity complications. So they switched her to oxandrolone and her condition improved without complication.


jd.gif


September 2000 • Volume 43 • Number 3


Treatment of lipodermatosclerosis with oxandrolone in a patient with stanozolol-induced hepatotoxicity

Stanozolol is a synthetic testosterone derivative with primarily anabolic (and few androgenic) effects that also has potent fibrinolytic properties.2 Presumably, it is the latter property that explains its successful use in the treatment of lipodermatosclerosis.3 However, major systemic side effects of stanozolol include sodium retention, hepatotoxicity, and lipid profile abnormalities.4 We describe a patient with chronic lipodermatosclerosis whose symptoms abated after treatment with stanazolol, but hepatotoxicity developed and the patient required alternative therapy.

Her worsening pain and extension of the induration prompted a trial of stanozolol (2 mg daily), which resulted in marked alleviation of symptoms within 2 weeks of its initiation. Unfortunately, within 2 months her liver enzyme levels rose from normal baseline levels (alanine aminotransferase, 38 U/L; aspartate aminotransferase, 38 U/L) to 257 U/L (alanine aminotransferase) and 562 U/L (aspartate aminotransferase). Although the patient did not exhibit signs or symptoms of hepatotoxicity, the stanozolol was immediately discontinued, with full resolution of the enzyme abnormalities. A newer anabolic steroid was then started, oxandrolone (10 mg twice daily), because it had been reported to be less hepatotoxic. Within 2 weeks, she experienced a reduction in pain (from a score of 7/10 to 3/10) as well as subjective softening of the skin. After 3 months of oxandrolone therapy, her symptoms had continued to abate, and she decided to discontinue the medication. No abnormalities in liver enzymes were noted. Incidentally, several months later she was diagnosed as having an idiopathic cardiomyopathy (a literature search failed to find any reports of oxandrolone-induced cardiomyopathy).

The newer anabolic steroid oxandrolone also has known fibrinolytic activity, but unlike the majority of oral anabolic steroids it undergoes limited hepatic metabolism and is associated with a lower incidence of hepatotoxicity. In our opinion, oxandrolone represents a therapeutic option for those patients with stanozolol-responsive lipodermatosclerosis in whom hepatic toxicity develops.

16/8/106517
 
Great Thread! I was curious if tren was hard on the liver and you answered that. I am doing LFT's periodlically through the next cycle.

Excellent scientific info! Thanks all!:)
 
RG- You're a wealth of knowledge Brother... great thread.

However, noone has mentioned 'agression' as a side yet. IMO the behavioral side effects of the AAS I use are of paramount importance. I had to call off my most recent cycle(6 weeks)early, right before the Tren stage, because the unreasonable sensitivity that developed was causing me some personal problems.

For the Brothers who have used a VARIETY of AAS... how does 75mg/ED of Tren compare to 500mg/EW of Test or 100mg/ED of Winstrol with respect to agression? I have no experience with Tren, I'd like to get some input.

Peace,
Scott.
 
Ulter gave some good info in regard to low dose anavar but I would like to remind you all of my liver values while I was on 50 of var per day.........they were much worse then when I was on tren alone.
My Lipid profile was also VERY shitty.

But after reading Ulters reply I would have to say that that winstrol is worse than anavar at least at low doses(and then probably ay higher doses too).
Yet at BODYBUILDING doses, for MEN, I do not think Anavar is that benign as evidenced by my lipid profile and liver enyzmes while "on" var alone.

Grant it they would probably have been even worse on winny alone but I have yet to test this hormone alone.


REALGAINS LIVER ENYZMES ON ANAVAR 50 per day alone after week Four.
AST 120.......Normals 10 -36
ALT 110 ....normals 10-55
GGT 79 .....normals 0-50

WHILE ON 50 or tren per day after week 4

AST 50
ALT 40
GGT 10

*********No change in creatinine and BUN(kidney function tests)

LIPID PROFILE after week 4 of VAR alone....far worse than the liver enzymes BTW

Total cholesterol 245!!!!!!!! should be less than 180 with 160 or less as ideal
Hdl to total cholesterol ratio.. 15 to 1 !!!!!! Absoluteley terrible and my doc had a COW!

LIPID PROFILE while on TREN alone at 50mg per week and after week 4

Total cholesterol 202...not the greatest but much better than while on anavar
Ratio was 6 to 1......again not the greatest but much better than with the var alone.

True we all react a little differently to various steroids but the difference isn't that great. I will never use avavar again as it is simply too expensive, too mild anabolically and it was not nice to my liver or lipid profile.


RG

:)
 
Realgains said:
****** all steroids stress the liver to some degree but the 17aa roids are far worst. Tren is not 17 aa and it is injectable so any liver stress will be spread out over a longer period of time.
Click to expand...

great info RGs.
This may be a duplicate question, but what about eating the Tren or going transdermal instead of shooting it (as to liver and lipids).
 
MrRTTB said:

My tren sides with oral fina 120mg ED(4 weeks): finadick, very very tired, sick pumps, dry skin, got angry much easier.

My tren sides with fina 60mg ED taken with DMSO(4 weeks): Same as above
Click to expand...

did you get any hairloss with the oral or transd fina (and are you predisposed)?
 
What about hair loss......well you are going to get it if you have the genetics for male pattern baldness. Tren is strongest androgen that we use for muscle building reasons mg for mg and so it is is hard on the hair line in some but Testosterone is worst as it converts to the absolute strongest androgen and that is DHT.
Click to expand...

This is not true for me anyways. tren is extremely harsh on my hairline, and Im not very prone to MPB
 
Ok, couple of things to consider.

First of all, as mentioned above, tren does elevate BP. It does so for the reason posted above as well as a result of blood volumizing. This increase in BP can cause kidney problems in some users if there is a predisposition to such a condition.

Secondly, winstrol and oxandrolone are not equally toxic in equal doses. Winstrol is more toxic, and it acts on the body in a different way than oxandrolone does. It also has a more negative and profound impact on the HDL/LDL ratio.

Thirdly, haloteston is more hepatotoxic than anadrol, by a pretty good margin. Anadrol can cause some problems pretty quickly, as stated by Realgains (his reasons are correct), but in terms of liver damage, halo is worse.

Lastly, tren causes the body to lose a little efficacy for receptor binding to testosterone. In other words, test is not quite as effective in the presence of tren. Not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Tren is the ULTIMATE anticatabolic, followed by winstrol. Tren is the most effective anticatabolic steroid and will preserve muscle even in a calorie deficit more so than any other steroid, although winstrol has a unique anticatabolic mechanism that is also very effective.

The rapid loss of size after tren is due to the blood volume returning to normal levels.
 
I haven't done a cycle yet because I'm afraid of the effects it may have on my HPTA. I would think that the WORST side effect would be any kind of impotence or impaired sexual performance... What's the point of having a great body if you can't fuck?
Every time I read a post about someone saying that their libido or sexual performance hasn't been the same since AAS it makes me think twice.
Even though RG says that the effects on HPTA are uncommon, should I be more worried because my natural test level is pretty low, like 325?
 
Fukkenshredded said:

The rapid loss of size after tren is due to the blood volume returning to normal levels.
Click to expand...


WHAT??????????????

I haven't tried tren yet, but everything i've read on it says the gains are very keepable lean mass real muscle gains.

which makes sense since what would be purpose of giving a cow something to up his blood volume if it's not actually increasing amount of meat you'll be able to sell?

which is it?
 
geoboy said:



WHAT??????????????

I haven't tried tren yet, but everything i've read on it says the gains are very keepable lean mass real muscle gains.

which makes sense since what would be purpose of giving a cow something to up his blood volume if it's not actually increasing amount of meat you'll be able to sell?

which is it?
Click to expand...


I lost size after every tren cycle... tren really isn't all its hyped up to be..
Hard shutdown
hairloss after cycle
mood swings (felt like killing EVERY person I saw)
gains aren't THAT great
 


One other point to consider: There have been in all likelyhood 100's of studies on human beings and oxandrolone.


How many studies have there been on humans and trenbolone?

 
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TraxZBT said:

I lost size after every tren cycle... tren really isn't all its hyped up to be..
Hard shutdown
hairloss after cycle
mood swings (felt like killing EVERY person I saw)
gains aren't THAT great
Click to expand...

Goddamit. Stop pissing on my Tren fantasy. :(

I was about 15 minutes from starting a tren cycle.

1) are you predisposed to hairloss
2) anything else cause you to lose hair
3) now that I think about it, maybe you can fill out the TREN Survey in the sticky:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245062
 
First post and there are some great minds here IMO.
Just my experience with Tren.I am not very experienced with AAS but have been lifting for a while.

Diabetic lifter more into strength training than mass training as it's very difficult for me to add size.
40 yrs old. Have done 4 mini cycles of Tren only in past 6 months after curiosity got the best of me.
Two 2 weekers and Two 4 weekers.
Began the cycles at 164lbs. Ended at 178 even leaner than I was at 164 and have lost no weight yet but it's only been a couple weeks since I got off.
Every cycle gave me about 3-lbs.

Best bench naturally for me was 320 about 2 years ago and I was at a fat 185lbs, with 300 for 3reps. But had been stuck at 315 for a while.

At end of last cycle, 300 5 full reps and 340 max. Strength gains were fantastic when you consider I had been maxed out naturally for several years.

Gains were very lean and with very little to no water gain.
BP changed from my normal 130/90 to 140+/mid 80's.
Sort of an odd change.

The muscles got very hard and no doubt about it,I lost a lot of fat even on a pretty high fat diet.
Normally I would get pretty sore after a heavy workout. On the tren I had no soreness and felt like I could lift everyday.

I found it worked incredibly fast. In one week I could feel it.
By the 2nd week it really kicked in.
But by week 4 end, it seemed like it was actually having less effect. Night sweats completely stopped, mood swings were less pronounced and even BP dropped back to normal.
Worst side for me was a defenite change in moods.

I have used clomid for post cycle. I noticed no bad sides from it.
It seems like it takes me 10 days before I feel back to normal and my usual strong sex drive kicks in.
Tren did drop my sex drive no doubt about it but that did not stop me :D .
Not a trace of any gyno.
I did get a bad wrist joint problem which I am not sure if it is tren related or not but I think it was. Possibly from reduced cortisol?

I did only bi and tri injections at 60mg ED. Never had so much as a bruise and used my slin pins.
My arms gained about 3/4 inch from that with a great bi peak.
All in all these mini tren only cycles seem well worth it.
Not a big mass adder, but very good lean gains with quite a boost in strength.

I am going in for blood work soon and will see how much I screwed myself up or not.
My cholesterol was sort of high to begin with.
Am adding in some Lescol now as a precaution.
 
geoboy said:


Goddamit. Stop pissing on my Tren fantasy. :(

I was about 15 minutes from starting a tren cycle.

1) are you predisposed to hairloss
2) anything else cause you to lose hair
3) now that I think about it, maybe you can fill out the TREN Survey in the sticky:
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245062
Click to expand...


1) I'm don't think i'm very prone to hairloss. (my dad has a full head of hair at 58, but my uncles on mother side are balding a bit)

2) I don't lose hair on cycle... I lose hair post cycle only. I have very thick hair and don't shed at all normally. Was also running EQ, low dose test and var in past cycles.

3) will do..
 
one side effect....uncontrollable itching from all the hives you get from that shit. lol I used 2 different kits and still the same result. Probably just me though...
Click to expand...

Pure Extract, was that like a rash, i think i had the same thing. it iched like crazy and was on my inner forearm. what was that from? btw i has taken some prednisone and that worked.
 
The tren and fina are both good, but I feel too strong for long term use....... To build muscle I feel the hormone levels should remain elevated for at least 16 weeks if not more..... I would never use Fina for even half that much time.......
 
explain: fina cough and why its only given to cows just before slaughter.
i dont see how tren can give such dramatic effects yet still low in sides. a higher effect on the body usually translates to higher negative side effects, that can be seen in all of pharmacology.
 
bicepts101 said:
yeah whats up with fina cough?

does any body have scientific expaination for this?

or some sort of logical one
Click to expand...

Fina cough has been theorized to be the result of the high BA content in most homemade batches of tren. It is caused by some of the BA intering the bloodstream from a vien very close to the injectoin site.

I've noticed that since I've started being more conservative with the BA I make my kits with that tren cough, and those occasional itchy feels I get right after an injection have disapeared.

As far as side effects, it does seem to be hit or miss, but after experiementing with myself and 2 friends who started doing long tren cycles, that the longer you stay on the less sides you get. They also seem to be reduced with every cycle. Currently, I get a little acne every now and then. The night sweats, occasional loss of libdio, severe acne, false gyno (puffy nipps with no hard tissue that later just dissapears), and such have become non-existant. I still get sore joints on occasion. One of my friends still reports that he can't always cum while screwing his wife, so just gives up after a couple of hours, but the rest of his sides are gone now too. The night sweats for him were very severe. My other friend still gets gyno and acne from it, but he using a gram of prop a week on every cycle, and occasional likes to stack in eq and/or hgh with it, so the test could be a factor here.
 
Realgains said:
I forgot to cover the "I have kidney pain while on tren issue"

Tren gives very strong muscle pumps , especially in the low back. Often the bro has a very stiff sore lumbar region while on steroid. This is caused by that pump amd water retention and is actually far worse with test or aother aromatizing hormones.

True kidney pain is very rare and comes either after extensive damage or because of kidney stones. True kidney pain is felt VERY HIGH UP ON THE FLAKNS and usually radiates to the upper lateral abdomen as well.

True kidney pain IS NOT IN THE LUMBAR AREA!(low back region)

I suggest that to get your BUN and creatinine levels checked(kidney function test) while they have this pain in the back. I will bet my house that it is not kidneys at all. Your lipid profile will be a mess but your kidneys will be fine!

RG:)
Click to expand...

A possible reason someone may blame tren for a "kidney pain" might be the rapid increase of water intake they introduce to their body while starting a cycle rather than prior. I know some who didn't drink much water prior to cycle and then started the cycle and increased their water intake by at least 1 1/2 gallons and then complained of "kidney pain" which i would pass off as stress from the additional filteration needed. I may be wrong but its my 2 cents.

Viper
 
High Intensity as well as Pure Extract are two people who I can think of that have gotten hives from it.
Click to expand...


Absolutely! Especially at night.

Other things trigger it too. I shot nose spray and bam! I wanted to kill myself 10 min after. I NEVER EVER got hives in my life until week 4 of Tren. It looks like Tren does give them in my case and ANYTHING can trigger it BAD.

But not bad enough for me to stop! My wife screams STOP scratching already.
 
Just got some bad blood work on tren/winny 291 total.

What can I expect after i get off, I am usually arouind 170 - 190 anyone have any first hand expirience with a high cholestrol while on and what happens when you get cleaned out?

Any help appreciated
 
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