Lets c if this ends the Chest debate...

[WannaBPowerful]

OK, people are saying you cant work UPPER chest. You can only work the whole chest. On this pretty extensive site, it lists a starnal head (http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisSternal.html) and a clavical head (http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.html) with the clavical head being the upper chest. Both have diagrams along with extensive information. Check it out and tell me what you think. I think this pretty much proves you can work upper chest.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

You can work it, but the question is, does it get worked any more than doing flat, or if it does, does this hold up under heavy load.

 

[gettinlarger]

maybe this will end the debate ...

the pec is one muscle ...

any incline or decline whatsoever ... will still work the pec!!

 

[CytoMel]

It is a lot genetic where the pec seems to grow the most. I have been doing a ton of flat benching and variations of flat benching for over a year maxing out every week in floor presses, board presses, flat etc and my upper pecs grow fast from flat benching. I had upper pecs even before I started training.

I know others who do a to of flat benching and get a lot of middle to lower pec development from the same presses I do.

So basicly people get different development because they are different genetically.

I dont think think that inclines will give you anymore upper chest growth than flat.

 

[Vortexx]

Somebody ought to design study where they put 100 subjects for one year on incline benches exclusively and a control group of 100 subjects on flat benches exclusively for :

MO heavy: 5 * 5
TH
WE
TH
FR medium 12 * 8
SA
SU
MO
TH heavy 5 * 5
WE
TH
FR
SA light 12 * 12
SU
MO
TH
WE heavy 5 * 5 etc....


No assistence work for chest, you have a low, medium and high reps day to allow at least some results for most subjects as you cover different fibre make-ups. 3 days rest should be enough if no other training or minimal training is done...


I would really like to see the outcome of such a field experiment....

 

[Vortexx]

Oh yes and a "placebo" control group using the abdominizer , beer and pretzels....

 

[magdelana]

Vortexx, leuk om je weer te zien hoor.

I have never seen a man develop nice fully rounded pecs from just flat benches. The angle of the motion appears to be quite important. I also agree however that there seems to be a genetic factor as well. Some fellows get that droopy tit look even though they do inclines as part of their regualar workout and there are others that are much careful about doing different movements and have far better pecs.

I am a woman that has C-level breasts so i cannot see my lower pecs anyway. After several years of flat benching only i still saw rather little beef above my boobs even while i could bench then about 190 or so. Five more years of concentrating on inclines and i now see MUCH more thickness at my sternum. My flat bench is up to around 260 now. Inclines helped my thickness obviously but they also i belive helped me to add quite a lot to my flat bench by making stronger the upper area of the pecs.

 

[Frackal]

From my experience there is DEFINITELY a difference between working upper and lower chest.

 

[Vortexx]

I think it's very insightfull to listen to the experiences of female bodybuilders here as they are usually far more into filling the upper chest than us guys (because the boobs will kinda hide lower pecs anyway)

Maybe we should continue this debate in the woman board?

 

[strong island]

IF EVERY BODYBUILDER THAT EVER WALKED THE PLANET USES INCLINES THAN WHY WOULDN'T YOU?

and there have been many EMG studies done which state that inclines do stimulate the "upper" chest slightly more than flat.

But how you work out is a personal choice...so if you don't want to do them because you don't think they are necessary to build your upper chest...THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

 

[gettinlarger]

IF EVERY BODYBUILDER THAT EVER WALKED THE PLANET USES INCLINES THAN WHY WOULDN'T YOU?

and there have been many EMG studies done which state that inclines do stimulate the "upper" chest slightly more than flat.

But how you work out is a personal choice...so if you don't want to do them because you don't think they are necessary to build your upper chest...THEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

the mans a goddamned genius.

 

[Imnotdutch]

maybe this will end the debate ...

the pec is one muscle ...

any incline or decline whatsoever ... will still work the pec!!

And the muscle has several heads....so in theory isn't it possible to favour one head over the other depending upon the exercise used?

 

[MarshallPenniford]

heads/muscles - you can use them interchangeably I believe. Fair to say that the pectoralis group has 3 muscles in total.

BTW - Not everybody is born with both the clavicular and sternocostal portion.

 

[gettinlarger]

ok, this may not be the same for everyone ... but ...

if i do declines, i can feel pump in my upper chest as well as my lower chest, and vice versa with inclines. and flat.

 

[strong island]

heads/muscles - you can use them interchangeably I believe. Fair to say that the pectoralis group has 3 muscles in total.

BTW - Not everybody is born with both the clavicular and sternocostal portion.

Pectoralis Major is one muscle with two heads.(like the biceps brachii)

Here are variations from Gray:
"Variations.—The more frequent variations are greater or less extent of attachment to the ribs and sternum, varying size of the abdominal part or its absence, greater or less extent of separation of sternocostal and clavicular parts, fusion of clavicular part with deltoid, decussation in front of the sternum. Deficiency or absence of the sternocostal part is not uncommon. Absence of the clavicular part is less frequent. Rarely the whole muscle is wanting."

 

[strong island]

ok, this may not be the same for everyone ... but ...

if i do declines, i can feel pump in my upper chest as well as my lower chest, and vice versa with inclines. and flat.

You are not going to ISOLATE a part of the muscle. The debate was about if one could EMPHASIZE the upper head with inclines.

 

[coolcolj]

Guys think about it

if a muccle has one common insertion point from a single tendon at either end, then you can't change ther overall shape or stress certain fibres more than the others. Ie a Bicep.

The pec is not one of those muscles. Each fibre in the pec fans out from oneside to the other. All fibres do not share a common insertion at one end. So there is pretty damn good chance certain fibres can be empahsised over others!

And also remeber some very lean guys display a split between the upper and lower sections of the pec - so what's up with that?

 

[strong island]

Guys think about it

if a muccle has one common insertion point from a single tendon at either end, then you can't change ther overall shape or stress certain fibres more than the others. Ie a Bicep.

The pec is not one of those muscles. Each fibre in the pec fans out from oneside to the other. All fibres do not share a common insertion at one end. So there is pretty damn good chance certain fibres can be empahsised over others!

And also remeber some very lean guys display a split between the upper and lower sections of the pec - so what's up with that?

Just so the terminology is correct...you should replace the word insertion with origin.

Because the fibers "all end in a flat tendon, about 5 cm. broad, which is inserted into the crest of the greater tubercle of the humerus."(Gray)

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Strong - You'll see head and muscle used interchangeably in the medical community. There is nothing incorrect about saying that the biceps brachii is a muscle group composed of two muscles.

 

[needsize]

Vortexx, leuk om je weer te zien hoor.

I have never seen a man develop nice fully rounded pecs from just flat benches. The angle of the motion appears to be quite important. I also agree however that there seems to be a genetic factor as well. Some fellows get that droopy tit look even though they do inclines as part of their regualar workout and there are others that are much careful about doing different movements and have far better pecs.

I am a woman that has C-level breasts so i cannot see my lower pecs anyway. After several years of flat benching only i still saw rather little beef above my boobs even while i could bench then about 190 or so. Five more years of concentrating on inclines and i now see MUCH more thickness at my sternum. My flat bench is up to around 260 now. Inclines helped my thickness obviously but they also i belive helped me to add quite a lot to my flat bench by making stronger the upper area of the pecs.

Glad to see you over here on the training board.
You never cease to impress me, if only more women trained like you....

 

[strong island]

Strong - You'll see head and muscle used interchangeably in the medical community. There is nothing incorrect about saying that the biceps brachii is a muscle group composed of two muscles.

You see..you learn something everyday. I am not in the medical community so I will have to take your word for it. All I know is that in every book I have ever read, the bicecps brachii is considered one muscle. Can you say it is two muscles because of the separate origins?

So it is considered one and two muscles...what is it technically?

Do you have any websites which state that the biceps brachii is two muscles.

 

[HansNZ]

A friend of mine had the most awesome physique except for his chest which he couldn't get to grow.

The base of his pectoral in the nipple region was fine, but the top of his chest was the worst. He had no development at all and was completely flat. He battled with it for years. He tried EVERYTHING - went to god-knows-how-many different training specialists. Essentially he was fighting against his own physiology and genetics.

So what did he finally do? He went to the surgeon and got chest implants. He looks great now! LOL.

 

[WannaBPowerful]

I tried to fix this problem, not start yet another 2 page thread argueing about it.

btw thats pretty low to go n get chest implants. Im sure some DBol coulda cured that problem lol.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

You see..you learn something everyday. I am not in the medical community so I will have to take your word for it. All I know is that in every book I have ever read, the bicecps brachii is considered one muscle. Can you say it is two muscles because of the separate origins?

So it is considered one and two muscles...what is it technically?

Do you have any websites which state that the biceps brachii is two muscles.

I can find some, but the one you'll see most often is the usage when referring to the quadriceps (same principle here), but I think because the individual heads are so commonly talked about in rehab (interestingly, the most predominant theory, at least that I can find, is that you can't hit an individual head in the quad in any meaningful sort of way).

Let me see if I can quickly find one for you. Personally, I find the dual terminology confusing myself. I think it is because of the different origin though, for example you could cut off one of the heads/muscles in the biceps and still have a thing there that was in essence a muscle unto itself. Ok, I'm rambling. I'll check around.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Strong - here this quote is from Gray's in which the refer to the quad as one muscle and many muscles in the same sentence:

"The Quadriceps femoris (Quadriceps extensor) includes the four remaining muscles on the front of the thigh. It is the great extensor muscle of the leg, forming a large fleshy mass which covers the front and sides of the femur. "

In their sections on the biceps and the triceps, I could only see the groups referred to as heads. I told you, it's confusing. I can't seem to find a clear answer, so I just consider that they get used interchangeably. If anyone else has insight, maybe we can all learn something more on this.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

bumping for StrongIsland

 

[strong island]

Whats up Marshall....I was referring to the bicpes brachii.

I never assumed that the quadracep was a single muscle. I always thought it was a muscle group.

But you do see it referred as both a muscle group and as a muscle itself.

Plus all four do share the same insertion.
" The tendons of the different portions of the Quadriceps unite at the lower part of the thigh, so as to form a single strong tendon, which is inserted into the base of the patella "(Gray)

Similar to the bicep which has two origins and one insertion.

Valid point...maybe it has something to do with having separate origins.

Do you consider the pectoralis major to be two muscles, since it has two heads? But lacks "separate" origins.

 

[bignate73]

Valid point...maybe it has something to do with having separate origins.

Do you consider the pectoralis major to be two muscles, since it has two heads? But lacks "separate" origins.

the pectoralis major HAS seperate origins (sternum, clavicle), its insertion point is common (humerus).

 

[louden_swain]

Whats the big deal? I say do whats best for you. I personally, do all incline movements and my chest has transformed in shape over the years. I now have thick muscle filling in the sternal, clavicle, and outer areas. From a personal view, I think flat pressing is way over-rated.

 

[strong island]

the pectoralis major HAS seperate origins (sternum, clavicle), its insertion point is common (humerus).

Misunderstanding....I am saying that there is no distinct separation. It is one long origin that encompasses both the sternum and clavicle.

As opposed to the bicep and quad which have distinct separate origins.

 

[bignate73]

gotcha!

 

[Lumbuss]

Genetics determine the shape of your chest, not inclines or declines. All you can do is make it bigger or smaller. Thats it.

 

[Vortexx]

Well, since it's "all genetics" and we can only develope size, we might as well stick to incline benchpressing, just to be on the save side

 

[Lumbuss]

Im thining about adding some inclines to my delt routine because they are lagging.

 

[Iron Force]

Inclines will hit your front delts more.

 

[b fold the truth]

You guys are so funny...and it is funny that the larger people on this board (bignate, needsize, etc...) say that to bring up the upper chest one needs to do some sort of inclines.

Someday you will realize that just because a book says it...it doesn't mean that it is true.

B True

 

[bignate73]

You guys are so funny...and it is funny that the larger people on this board (bignate, needsize, etc...) say that to bring up the upper chest one needs to do some sort of inclines.

Someday you will realize that just because a book says it...it doesn't mean that it is true.

B True

there is a difference though bfold the way you train and the way the majority of people are training. you train verrry heavy. max fiber recruitment. the majority of people dont periodize their training so they stick to the 8-12 range 60-85% 1RM. so in order for them to thoroughly tax the muscle, it requires them to tire out one area, then another and another. they arent always hitting fast twitch per se, and alot of it goes on "feel". if i had the safety of a spotter or a rack, i would probably train similar, just for the experience.

incline to me is not incline for some. ideally i would like about a 10% incline. i usually skip flat, and do weighted dips. i use the palpation method to how i train. i feel where i get maximum tension on the muscle (what angle, grip width, etc) and go with that.

as of late i have been switching up my presses to decrease the angle of my elbows from my body. it feels pretty nice on my shoulders and i can still get some good weight up, especially with a little goose from my legs. today i was getting 95s on incline for 8+.

i'll be the first to say, there is no absolute answers, or no one way to train that will yield constant results. so thats where something like you do, or a more bodybuilding type routine, or even explosive movements cycled into a program will be a more rounded program because it doesnt take one side it encompasses many styles/beliefs/principles.
variety is the key, IMO.

as for me being one of the bigger people here. LOL. im just a strong little bird. <tweet tweet>

bigger means over 200 lbs to me, thats alot of burger king. but thanks for the compliment.

ive been reading and reading (and practicing) as of late and learning more than i ever thought possible. so hence a bit more open mindedness.

 

[b fold the truth]

bignate73: You said exactly what I meant!!!! I agree with you very much. I just think that it is funny that the big guys here on Elite (yes you are one of them) say that inclines help build the upper chest and the smaller ones say that it doesn't for one reason or another.

I may debate with you quite a bit...but I do listen to every word that you post in detail. From looking at your pics, you DO know what you are talking about and have put your principles to good use (even if you are under 200 pounds). I just think that it is time that people look at you and think to themselves...If bignate and needsize say that they built their chest with inclines and higher reps...maybe I should too.

B True

 

[needsize]

Thanks bfold, it still sounds weird being the skinny 145lb kid that I was, hearing anyone call me big, especially someone your size.....
This is where the debate started to annoy me, sure those kids may have read a book or 2, but how long have the vets on here been researching things for themselves. But at least we can add what did work for us, to the knowlege we gained from reading. I know I'm not an expert, but being a hardgainer that busted his ass for 10+ years for every ounce I gained, I did definitely get a feel for what did build muscle and where.
BTW, when I talk about inclince, I mean a 20-30% one, any more and all I get is shoulders. Since none of the barbell benches are ever built at that angle, I dumbell press, and put a few plates under to bench to customize the angle that I want.

 

[b fold the truth]

My incline is about a 30 degree also...

B True

 

[Lumbuss]

bfold, you are basically saying that anything you say is right as long as you are bigger than the person who you are arguing with. that is incorrect. the only thing worse than saying inclines work the upper pecs is saying you are right because you are bigger.

 

[CytoMel]

Putting a milk crate or a small wooden box under one end of a flat bench works well for making it into an incline too.

Well I have to say that you definately dont have to do inclines to get upper chest development but doing inclines may increase upper chest mass faster than flat benches.

 

[b fold the truth]

bfold, you are basically saying that anything you say is right as long as you are bigger than the person who you are arguing with. that is incorrect. the only thing worse than saying inclines work the upper pecs is saying you are right because you are bigger.

To each his own...and as long as they enjoy being the size they are...let them believe what they believe. When you decide that you really want to grow...then it will be time to reconsider.

I am NOT saying that you should listen to me because I am bigger...just saying that maybe there is a trend between what the bigger guys are saying and the way that they look. You really think that a lot of pro bodybuilders don't do inclines...haha...

B True

 

[WannaBPowerful]

Lemme step in here a little...

I think BFold is saying that he is right because he has GROWN more not that he is bigger. If someones results outweigh someone elses, id guess he knows more. Otherwise, why wouldnt the other guy have the same results? I agree with the big guys. Im gonna keep doin my inclines for my upper chest, and u do what u gotta do. Lets see who developes better.

 

[Vortexx]

I guess this chest debate will remain a sticky for some time. Often the upper chest need several years of dedicated hard work before it fully filled. Therefore switching to inclines will not give you results overnight.

I think that if you train for 5 years and the flat benchpress gives you nice overall chest development, you should stick to it, but if you feel you are still lacking in the clavicle area you should give the inclines a change.....

 

[strong island]

I would like to find someone with great pec development that has never done inclines.

I would also like this debate to end.....but both seem impossible.

 

[MarshallPenniford]

Strong, I've made this point before, but it gets ignored.

I've acheived what seems to be identical chest development from doing flat as from doing incline. I do almost exclusively incline these days. My "upper" chest has always sucked IMO, regardless of either way.

Not quite what you were looking for, but interesting enough.

 

[benchmonster]

I would like to find someone with great pec development that has never done inclines.

I would also like this debate to end.....but both seem impossible.

I have literally done inclines less than a dozen times in my life, and when I wear a competition shirt, I have cleavage. Screwball laughs at this, but I retort that it is visual proof of my well developed upper chest.

Inclines definately have their place, as do flat bench and declines. And anyone out there who thinks Bfold does not know what he is talking about is a fool.

I don't say this because he is big. A lot of big guys don't know much. But if you saw the incredible improvement Bfold has made since his martial arts pics, and can still say this guy does not know what he is talking about, then you are not worth wasting keystrokes on.

B.

 

[ZZuluZ]

I haven't read most of this threads. Let me only say that how much somebody gets bigger is also dependant on genetics.

Some people may NEVER get BIG regardless of training, steriods, recuperation, whatever.

-Zulu

 

[b fold the truth]

The ONLY point that I guess that I can really make is this...Prove it to yourself!!! That is what I have done. I do some inclines now because it does help with my overhead press and gives me a little chest development (something my routine lacks).

I don't have to prove anything to you and I can't do it. We are dealing with a topic where I can not only post evidence that says that inclines don't work the upper chest just like I can show pics and tons of people's opinions that say that inclines solely developed their chest. We can not come to a solid decision here because there is evidence to support both sides.

Just prove it to yourself, just like any other advide given here on Elite. Prove it, either way, to yourself and be happy.

B True

 

[strong island]

Some people may NEVER get BIG regardless of training, steriods, recuperation, whatever.

-Zulu

This is the silliest thing I haver EVER read. It sounds like a cop out. "Big" is a relative term but even someone with bad genetics can get big if they are willing to pay the price.

I hate when people say the word hardgainer...when they really don't eat enough. Maybe they have a faster metabolism, but if they eat enough and work hard they will get bigger. And as far as steroids go...if the person knows what he is doing, they pack on size. PERIOD.

I love bodybuilding because you get what you put in. Some might have great genetics(not me) but if you bust your ass you make gains.

I dedicate myself...working out five days a week, eating perfectly, getting enough sleep, setting my goals and then one by one reaching them.

Thats what weight training is all about....whether you are a bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman competitor, fitness competitor etc.

So keep your excuses to yourself....cause nobody cares.

 

[louden_swain]

This is the silliest thing I haver EVER read. It sounds like a cop out. "Big" is a relative term but even someone with bad genetics can get big if they are willing to pay the price.

I hate when people say the word hardgainer...when they really don't eat enough. Maybe they have a faster metabolism, but if they eat enough and work hard they will get bigger. And as far as steroids go...if the person knows what he is doing, they pack on size. PERIOD.

I love bodybuilding because you get what you put in. Some might have great genetics(not me) but if you bust your ass you make gains.

I dedicate myself...working out five days a week, eating perfectly, getting enough sleep, setting my goals and then one by one reaching them.

Thats what weight training is all about....whether you are a bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman competitor, fitness competitor etc.

So keep your excuses to yourself....cause nobody cares.

This is true. . . .people would rather make excuses than train hard and eat the required food to gain mass. I believe everyone can make great gains, but they must work very hard to achieve their goals. People forget that building a body and building strength takes years to accomplish. I personally love training because it allows me to set goals and I have plenty of time to achieve them. I am willing to go the extra mile (drug free) to make gains. I am sure other trainers at this site have the same attitude and determination.

 

[coolcolj]

Fresh info EMG measurements for muscle simulation amount


EXERCISE % iEMG

Pectoralis Major

Decline dumbell bench press 93
Decline bench press (olympic) 89
Push-ups between benches 88
Flat dumbell bench press 87
Flat bench press 85
Flat dumbell flys 84

Pectoralis Minor

Incline dumbell bench press 91
Incline bench press (olympic) 85
Incline dumbell flys 83
Incline bench press (Smith) 81