Lats

[Mithrandir]

I am really into that 'V' shape, as most of us are...so I have been focusing heavily on wide grip pull up and lat pulldown (wide grip)--but I am not seeing much growth..I am doing more weight or more reps, but I am not getting too much bigger

I do three sets of wide grip pullup..first set is about 11-12 reps, second is about 10-11, then last set is about 8..

Then I head over to lat pulldown, and do four sets

1st--6 reps at 175
2nd--6 reps at 175
3rd--6 reps at 175--I have a spot for the last sometimes
4th--3-4 reps at 187.5--spot just in case

I go to about my lips, any more than that is not lats..
I weight about 163, so pull that down makes me think they (lats) should be bigger..but most of my muscles are like that, I am stronger than I look..what am I doing wrong (I want biggness too!)


Thanks for everything and all feedback.

 

[ruggermu]

Your talking abou tgrowing hows your diet? What other back work do you do?

 

[Mithrandir]

I start with what I originally posted. Then I do DB Rows. ( I do not know how to do barbell rows, it feels weird, help?)--

I do not do deadlifts, not sure how to do them, wanna help?

Then I do shrugs..this is all I really do. Soemtimes I do seated rows (machine) but it feels like my bi's get hit more with this...


DIET:

I eat oatmeal everymorning, I try to have a protein shake with it. Sometimes I have three eggs though. BUt always oatmeal, two packages, I use half milk, half water, about 70 grams of carbs, plus 45 with the protein shake. or about 18 if I eat eggs.
I have a banana sometimes too. Depends how I feel. and ow much time I have.

I always have a shake after workout and one banana.

about two hours later or so, I have either turkey, chicken, beef or tuna. Depends how I feel, what I feel like eating, but one of these four.

About two hours later I will have toast or sometihing, sometimes I will make mac n'cheese with tuna and eat half a box..sometimes i will have two small bagels..I do not like too much carbs for this meal, but what else do I eat? another meat meal, no cause that is next,

I eat one of the four..with steamed brocolli (I have this about 5-6 days/wk) or/and black beans. And sometimes I will have bread..

I only eat sourdough bread now, better for you.

I drink about half gallon of milk/day..HEB mootopia skim (4 grams of sugar, 14 grams of protein, no fat, and more calcium)

I eat peaunts and milk before bed (dry, unsalted, about 200-250 cal worth)

I eat sirloin (11 grams of fat per 23 grams of protein) ground beef.
I eat ground turkey (1 gram of fat per 27 grams of protein)
I eat skinless boneless chicken breast
I eat chunk white Tuna, the big cans.


I have been doing this well for only a week, and I ALREADY SEE GAINS better.

I know this is haphazard, but I eat pretty well.



I want to start the 5x5 routine..how do I do deadlifts and BB rows? Thanks you.

 

[Mr_MAX]

bent over rows.......
sure you need to bend over knees slightly bent...
grab the bar about the same as you do on bench..
try to keep you upper body parellel to the floor...
when you bend over stick your but out.. and arch your back with you chest out..
pull the bar to about your belly button.. as you let the bar down let the weight stretch you muscles.... dont jerk.. stay in control.. dont think about bringing the bar up think about flexing your back and pulling your elbows up...
it will not feel comfortable at 1st... but it soon willl..

 

[Mr_MAX]

when doing shrugs.. for traps... keep your arms straight.. at your sides...
you should not feel it in your bies.. unless you are bending your arms... because you are thinking about lifting the weight... dont think about lifting the weight.. think about lifting your shoulders... try to touch your shoulders to your ears...
dont do circles.. just go up and down.. straight.. is bad on the cuff.
when you take the shoulders down feel the stretch.. on the way up touch your ears...

 

[skookum]

Well, your new diet looks pretty good. Keep in mind, even if you THINK you've eaten enough protien, you're probably short - jack it up with a shake or two.

Regarding you're back training...Here's a suggestion that worked for me:

-Deadlifts 5-6 sets
-Weighted Wide-Grip Pull-Ups 4-5 Sets 6-8 reps
-Heavy T-Bar Rows Wide&Narrow 4 Sets Each Way ("Ya Gotta Row To Grow, Baby!!!)

Try It For Awhile...It Made May Back Absolutely Explode...If That Doesn't Work, Up The Dosage...

I start with what I originally posted. Then I do DB Rows. ( I do not know how to do barbell rows, it feels weird, help?)--

I do not do deadlifts, not sure how to do them, wanna help?

Then I do shrugs..this is all I really do. Soemtimes I do seated rows (machine) but it feels like my bi's get hit more with this...


DIET:

I eat oatmeal everymorning, I try to have a protein shake with it. Sometimes I have three eggs though. BUt always oatmeal, two packages, I use half milk, half water, about 70 grams of carbs, plus 45 with the protein shake. or about 18 if I eat eggs.
I have a banana sometimes too. Depends how I feel. and ow much time I have.

I always have a shake after workout and one banana.

about two hours later or so, I have either turkey, chicken, beef or tuna. Depends how I feel, what I feel like eating, but one of these four.

About two hours later I will have toast or sometihing, sometimes I will make mac n'cheese with tuna and eat half a box..sometimes i will have two small bagels..I do not like too much carbs for this meal, but what else do I eat? another meat meal, no cause that is next,

I eat one of the four..with steamed brocolli (I have this about 5-6 days/wk) or/and black beans. And sometimes I will have bread..

I only eat sourdough bread now, better for you.

I drink about half gallon of milk/day..HEB mootopia skim (4 grams of sugar, 14 grams of protein, no fat, and more calcium)

I eat peaunts and milk before bed (dry, unsalted, about 200-250 cal worth)

I eat sirloin (11 grams of fat per 23 grams of protein) ground beef.
I eat ground turkey (1 gram of fat per 27 grams of protein)
I eat skinless boneless chicken breast
I eat chunk white Tuna, the big cans.


I have been doing this well for only a week, and I ALREADY SEE GAINS better.

I know this is haphazard, but I eat pretty well.



I want to start the 5x5 routine..how do I do deadlifts and BB rows? Thanks you.

 

[seizer]

For rowing work you will get more emphasis on inner and upper back. While you will get good lat stimulation with them, i would hit the pullups and ditch the lat pulldown all together. Lat pulldown would be a good warmup before pullups. Just add weight to your pullups, get a nice wide grip, lower yourself all the way down to the point that you are hanging, and then back all the way up.

 

[blut wump]

All well and good for some. I can get about 1.75 reps on a pullup which is a big improvement from none. Without a lat pulldown I wouldn't be able to do the exercise at all.

 

[ruggermu]

Well as far as not being able to do pull ups then stick to pulldowns until you can. Gotta start somewhere but when you can switch. As far as how to do those exercises everyone has given good explainations but here's my advice, put the exercises in a search engine and find a site with pictures it's the best way to see how it's done. The statement about concentrate on flexing the muscle not movung the weight that is key it will improve your form in no time. I don't know if this is perfect but here's the back work I do works well for me.

Deadlifts
Pull ups
Dbell Row
Barbell shrugs
Barbell row
Dbell shrugs

Whatever you do if you want your back to groe DEADLIFTS!!!!!!!

 

[blut wump]

You should try throwing in power shrugs and/or power cleans. The power variant is a lot more effective than the normal shrugs.

 

[chewyxrage]

Deadlifts are a great back exercise but really doesn't help the lats grow much.

 

[araiber]

Clean and Jerks are awesome for lats too. I was sore for a good 2 days where as when i did 30 pullups i felt nothing. Siick burn.

 

[BlondBomber]

Deadlifts are a great back exercise but really doesn't help the lats grow much.

How could deadlifts be a great back exercise, but not really help the lats?
I could see the rational of a pro not doing deadlifts because they are highly developed and want to refine their physique, but still think of it, who has the sickest backs? The names that I think of are Ronnie Coleman, Johnnie Jackson, Mike Francois and Victor Martinez, and they all deadlift. Shit Coleman, Jackson and Francois all employ/ed heavy PL-style deadlifts in their routines. Dorian Yates also did deadlifts in his Blood&Guts, albeit not with any weight over 405.
No flame here, I just wonder what your reasoning is.

 

[BlondBomber]

Try this Johnnie Jackson inspired routine:
1. pull-ups: 3 sets of 10
2. deadlifts: 3 sets of 5 (first set an acclimation set, then 2 working sets) &(use a belt) (perform these snatch-grip w/straps or over-under PL-style)
3. BB rows: 2 sets of 8 (use varying grips)
4. T-bar rows: 2 sets of 8 (use varying grips)
5. seated rows: 2 sets of 8 (use varying grips)
6. close-grip pulldowns: 2 sets of 10

I would recommend training your traps on your shoulder day because after 6 back exercises 2-4 sets of shrugs will pretty hard to perform with great intensity.

 

[chewyxrage]

How could deadlifts be a great back exercise, but not really help the lats?
I could see the rational of a pro not doing deadlifts because they are highly developed and want to refine their physique, but still think of it, who has the sickest backs? The names that I think of are Ronnie Coleman, Johnnie Jackson, Mike Francois and Victor Martinez, and they all deadlift. Shit Coleman, Jackson and Francois all employ/ed heavy PL-style deadlifts in their routines. Dorian Yates also did deadlifts in his Blood&Guts, albeit not with any weight over 405.
No flame here, I just wonder what your reasoning is.

My reasoning is that if a person is trying to focus on LATS, there are better exercises to utilize as opposed to deadlifting which is more for hams, glutes, erectors, and traps.

 

[musketeer]

Why do people always wide grip for lats. The lat is worked much harder with a grip say, 16" inches wide. Wide grip just works the top of the lat.

 

[Madcow2]

Pulling from the floor (deadlift/clean/whatever) and squatting are absolutely fundemental movements when developing the body. You aren't just going to arrive at big lats one day. Squat and pull - everything will grow - this is absolutely key. Deadlifts are a heavy stress on just about all your musculature. The lats will develop along with everything else but optimally you add in some BB rows (back parallel to the floor and accelerate the bar into your abdomen throughout the motion) and then pullups. There is no need to do anything else for your back on a regular basis.

 

[chewyxrage]

Pulling from the floor (deadlift/clean/whatever) and squatting are absolutely fundemental movements when developing the body. You aren't just going to arrive at big lats one day. Squat and pull - everything will grow - this is absolutely key. Deadlifts are a heavy stress on just about all your musculature. The lats will develop along with everything else but optimally you add in some BB rows (back parallel to the floor and accelerate the bar into your abdomen throughout the motion) and then pullups. There is no need to do anything else for your back on a regular basis.

I agree deadlifts are a great exercise. I was in no way telling people not to do them. I split up my back into 2 different days. Width and thickness. It's been working pretty well I must say.

 

[BlondBomber]

I agree deadlifts are a great exercise. I was in no way telling people not to do them. I split up my back into 2 different days. Width and thickness. It's been working pretty well I must say.

To each their own.

 

[Mr_MAX]

Why do people always wide grip for lats. The lat is worked much harder with a grip say, 16" inches wide. Wide grip just works the top of the lat.

well wide grip will help some from using there bies during the movment..

but i say put you arms to your side and flex your lats.. where ever you feel your lats the most..that is how wide you should go...

 

[chewyxrage]

How far are you supposed to pull down on closed grip lat pulldowns?


As for the wide grip question - I go pretty wide on pullups to avoid Bi recruitment like mr.max said.....

 

[Mithrandir]

Man, you guys have been a great help. I really appreciate it

One Q. How to deadlift?? I want to start 5x5 routine, I have 9 weeks till classes let out, I want to hit this shit up b/f summer. Thank you.

 

[blut wump]

There's a sticky in the powerlifting forum.

 

[view]

having a big back is all about these exercises:

chins (weighted if possible)
rows parallel to ground
deadlifts

anything else is inferior and second rate -- including seated cable rows, lat cable pulldowns and the almighty hammer strength machine.

 

[blut wump]

Not quite anything else. Power cleans and power shrugs have a place in a well-rounded back program or even a decent deadlift program.

 

[musketeer]

How far are you supposed to pull down on closed grip lat pulldowns?


As for the wide grip question - I go pretty wide on pullups to avoid Bi recruitment like mr.max said.....

Pulldowns and chinups should touch your chest- about nipple level. When you are too exhausted to touch your chest then grind out a couple more reps to as far as possible before terminating the set.

Your back should be arched to the max to fully activate the lats.

 

[view]

Not quite anything else. Power cleans and power shrugs have a place in a well-rounded back program or even a decent deadlift program.

true dat.

 

[rbtrout]

When I'm doing lat exercises, pulldowns especially, I arch my back slightly back and lean slightly back and then during the pulldown motion try to touch my shoulder blades together. Once I started this, I could really feel a difference.

 

[supreme]

Musketeer is right on!

The myth of wide grip = wide lats does not work unless your are < 18 years old and your bones have not ossified. The-bi-acromial width of the shoudler girdle can be enhanced with young athletes like gymnasts and swimmers both of who have wide shoulder development due to the constant pulling on the shoulder girdle in their sports.

Most gym guys like wide grip pulldowns/ pullups so they can use more weight and work their egos! wide grip really means shorter ROM which allows you to move more weight.

Your problem more than likely is form! The pulldowm / pullup is a VERTICAL pulling exercise, ANY leaning back is wrong and shifts the emphasis of the pull to the scapular retractors of the mid-upper back & rear delts.

The retards you see leaning back and using momentum are causing serious shoulder, elbow and or back damage. You need to focus on pulling your elbows down to your sides vertically while keeping your torso erect. DO NOT start the movement with your shoulder blades contracted together like some idiots teach. This disrupts scapulo-humeral rythm (the timing of the scapulo-thoracis joints & glenohumeral joints) and leads to damage in the shoulder.

As you pulldown, your lats should contract and the shoulder blades meet at the bottom of the movement, when returning to the top of the movement you must release the shoulder blades or you will do even MORE shoulder damage!!

Here is a great article on building lats with good form:

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=10

Also heavy deads & rows are absolutely needed for the lats, and pullups are superior to pulldowns (it is always harder to move your body three dimensionally towards a fixed axis then to move a weight towards you).

Most guys can't do pullups due to: excess bodymass - either fat or non-functional tissue due capillary density, connective tissue growth and anabolics which cause all tissues to grow. Not all muscle size is due to contractile proteins- high reps i.e training for a pump cause an increase in blood flow which the body responds to by making more capillaires
So many large of the muscles on body builders is some muscle, increased capillaries, increased blood & stored water and glycogen and connective tissue. That is why Olympic lifters are not as big as bodybuilders yet they are much stronger, better muscle coordination due to enhanced nervous sytem activation and NOT training for a pump

The other reasons bodybuilders can't do pullups: poor muscle coordination and ROM where they can't fire enough of the back muscles simultaneously through a full ROM to execute the pullup because of too much isolation work and tight muscles due to shortened ROM.(remeber short ROM alows more weight to be moved = nice, big EGO!)

Probabaly the greatest lat execise is weighted pullups & chinups!

S


***My apologies; I incorrectly typed earlier that pulldowns are superior to pullups- it is the reverse!! Pullups are the SUPERIOR exercise. (that's what happens when you post late at night!)

 

[chewyxrage]

Musketeerr is right on!

The myth of wide grip = wide lats does not work unless your are < 18 years old and your bones have not ossified. The-bi-acromial width of the shoudle girdle can be enhanced with young athletes like gymnasts and swimmers both of who have wide shoulder development due to the constant pulling on the shoulder girdle in their sports.

Most gym guys like wide grip pulldowns/ pullups so they can use more weight and work their egos! wide grip really means shorter ROM which allows you to move more weight.

Your problem more than likely is form! The pulldowm / pullup is a VERTICAL pulling exercise, ANY leaning back is wrong and shifts the emphasis of the pull to the scapular retractors of the mid-upper back & rear delts.

The retards you see leaning back and using momentum are causing serious shoulder, elbow and or back damage. You need to focus on pulling your elbows down to your sides vertically while keeping your torso erect. DO NOT start the movement with your shoulder blades contracted together like some idiots teach. This disrupts scapulo-humeral rythm (the timing of the scapulo-thoracis joints & glenohumeral joints) and leads to damage in the shoulder.

As you pulldown, your lats should contract and the shoulder blades meet at the bottom of the movement, when returning to the top of the movement you must release the shoulder blades or you will do even MORE shoulder damage!!

Here is a great article on building lats with good form:

http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=10

Also heavy deads & rows are absolutely needed for the lats, and pulldowns are superior to pullups (it is always harder to move your body three dimensionally towards a fixed axis then to move a weight towards you).

Most guys can't do pullups due to: excess bodymass - either fat or non-functional tissue due capillary density, connective tissue growth and anabolics which cause all tissues to grow. Not all muscle size is due to contractile proteins- high reps i.e training for a pump cause an increase in blood flow which the body responds to by making more capillaires
So many large of the muscles on body builders is some muscle, increased capillaries, increased blood & stored water and glycogen and connective tissue. That is why Olympic lifters are not as big as bodybuilders yet they are much stronger, better muscle coordination due to enhanced nervous sytem activation and NOT training for a pump

The other reasons bodybuilders can't do pullups: poor muscle coordination and ROM where they can't fire enough of the back muscles simultaneously through a full ROM to execute the pullup because of too much isolation work and tight muscles due to shortened ROM.(remeber short ROM alows more weight to be moved = nice, big EGO!)

Probabaly the greatest lat execise is weighted pullups & chinups!

S

Interesting....couple questions...

You say:
"and pulldowns are superior to pullups"

And then:
"Probabaly the greatest lat execise is weighted pullups & chinups!"



So.....which is it? Pulldowns or pullups?




"Most gym guys like wide grip pulldowns/ pullups so they can use more weight"

The wider I go for pullups the more difficult it gets. If you're saying narrowing grip pullups work better then I'm happy cuz my max reps just went up 3-4

 

[Madcow2]

Interesting....couple questions...

You say:
"and pulldowns are superior to pullups"

And then:
"Probabaly the greatest lat execise is weighted pullups & chinups!"



So.....which is it? Pulldowns or pullups?

He meant it the opposite and just reversed the words. If you check the sentance again his support does not apply to pulldowns. It threw me for a second there too.

ie:

and pulldowns are superior to pullups (it is always harder to move your body three dimensionally towards a fixed axis then to move a weight towards you).

 

[Mr_MAX]

try... putting your abdomen on a bar.. light weight..
grab the bar with a close grip.... keeping the bar close.. move your grip out..
see if you can tell a difference.. my back can contract more with the wider grip...
the closer girp constricts my movement.. the the the wide vs close should have to do with your elbow placment.. every one should try a really light weight.. and see what feel good to them... ..... mostly wide helps keep biecepts out of play..

 

[supreme]

Chewy:

I apologize for the confusion, I typed it backwards! - see my retraction in the post!

What I am saying that narrow grip provides a better ROM and places less damaging stress on the anterior shoulder capsule & the common flexor tendon. Most guys cheat the weight with a wide grip or place a lot of unecessary capsular stress on the shoulder etc.

S

 

[chewyxrage]

Chewy:

I apologize for the confusion, I typed it backwards! - see my retraction in the post!

What I am saying that narrow grip provides a better ROM and places less damaging stress on the anterior shoulder capsule & the common flexor tendon. Most guys cheat the weight with a wide grip or place a lot of unecessary capsular stress on the shoulder etc.

S

Good info, thanks for clearing that up

 

[wallcrawler]

Will t-bar rows work as well as bent over bb rows? Also there is a contraption in my gym that you lay on face-down at a slightly less-than-45 degree angle to the floor, reach down, grab the bar, and row. Are these as effective as bent over rows?

 

[Mr_MAX]

it depends on the angle... usually t-bar will work more of your upper back.. rear delts..and traps.. is a very good exercise.. is comparable.. to rows.. all depends on form and the angle you are bringing it to your body..

 

[Madcow2]

Will t-bar rows work as well as bent over bb rows? Also there is a contraption in my gym that you lay on face-down at a slightly less-than-45 degree angle to the floor, reach down, grab the bar, and row. Are these as effective as bent over rows?

No, they are absolutely not as effective. Not close at all. You would do well to avoid "contraptions" and machines. Build your mass and foundation with basic free weight movements. If you need to address weak points or imbalances or support rehab treatment certain machines can really help out but this should be specific and targeted (this should be an exception and you won't have too many instances where this is required during a year). Do not throw a shotgun spread of exercises and hope you hit the magic one. Stick to the basics and work on getting better at them.

 

[chewyxrage]

No, they are absolutely not as effective. Not close at all. You would do well to avoid "contraptions" and machines. Build your mass and foundation with basic free weight movements. If you need to address weak points or imbalances or support rehab treatment certain machines can really help out but this should be specific and targeted (this should be an exception and you won't have too many instances where this is required during a year). Do not throw a shotgun spread of exercises and hope you hit the magic one. Stick to the basics and work on getting better at them.

This is interesting and I've always been wondering if I've been cheating myself...

When I started lifting seriously about 1.5 years ago I tried out BB rows and didn't feel comfortable (I had a really weak core, etc) and have been subsituted T-bars since.

I had a problem concentrating on form ( I get really impatient w/ progress ) and went to t-bars ever since.

Weak on my part, I know. I'm bout to change it up after reading this thread, lats are one of my weakest body parts and I need to take care of that

 

[Madcow2]

This is interesting and I've always been wondering if I've been cheating myself...

When I started lifting seriously about 1.5 years ago I tried out BB rows and didn't feel comfortable (I had a really weak core, etc) and have been subsituted T-bars since.

I had a problem concentrating on form ( I get really impatient w/ progress ) and went to t-bars ever since.

Weak on my part, I know. I'm bout to change it up after reading this thread, lats are one of my weakest body parts and I need to take care of that

This is something you want to read then. Two variations are presented and explained. A more standard one at the top and a supperior one towards the bottom of page 1. Keep in mind explosive and accerleration means smooth acceleration. There is no jerking for sudden momentum, just continuously accelerate the bar maximally as you pull through the range of motion.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

 

[Mr_MAX]

This is something you want to read then. Two variations are presented and explained. A more standard one at the top and a supperior one towards the bottom of page 1. Keep in mind explosive and accerleration means smooth acceleration. There is no jerking for sudden momentum, just continuously accelerate the bar maximally as you pull through the range of motion.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

very good stuff!!!