Late-night post-workout carbs.

[SteelWeaver]

Sorry, I know this question has been asked before, but just want to double-check. So many contradictory posts.

Workout is approx. 7-9pm. Post-workout protein shake with some high GI carbs 9:30 or so, final meal 11:00 or so. When cutting, assuming calories are below maintenance level, is it better to stop eating complex carbs by 4 or 5pm or so, or to have some in the last 2 hours before bed to refill glycogen stores?

MS - I know you said one time it didn't make any difference, and that refueling was more important, but that was for gaining mass. You recommended 2g carbs per kg. Is it the same when cutting?

I know there are people here who've tried both ways - any differences?

 

[diamonddiceclay]

In MY opinion, when cutting, do not have carbs late in the day

 

[wilson6]

Depends on what is happening the next day (heavy workout or cardio only).

But, I would say some simple carbs with the post wo meal, but then the final meal should be food protein (was going to say meat) and veg for carbs. Keep it really low glycemic but high protein (slow protein).

If only cardio the next day, then low carbs (veg) and protein.

2g/kg is OK on high carb days, and about 0.5/kg on low carb day.

Sure wish we could get you to start eating meat, I personally think it would make a big difference in helping you achieve your lifting goals and body composition.

If I remember, when Ms Wilson gets back from the gym she has a Met-Rx, then a couple hours later some chicken breast and veggies before going to bed. Cutting or no cutting, and always higher carbs the day before a heavy day.

If she splits her routine as she is doing now (Hannibal would approve, 2-a-days ), she will have a Met-Rx after both workouts morning and evening). She is still only working each bodypart once a week, heavy everyother regardless, just has to make time to do cardio after the weight routine. She is still able to cut very well on this system as well as maintain size and strength. The carb thing is all timing. Gotta have them to hold muscle size and keep the strength up but can't have too much or too often or the fat will not be burned, and everyone is DIFFERENT.

W6

 

[MS]

Yup, what Wilson6 said. Stick with cottage cheese or eggwhites for you last meal (plus veggies).

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thank you - that helps.

2g/kg is OK on high carb days, and about 0.5/kg on low carb day.

Er ... well, after weeks of huge and frustrating indecision I finally decided to try a 40/40/20 split, so I'm not going high/low carb right now. I figured that way, if I hit a wall along the way, I can still try carb cycling to mix things up, and in the meantime it's less complicated. (???) Dunno - never worked with macronutrients dietwise, only extreme caloric deficits.

Let's just say it's 2g/kg - would that be about half high GI immediately postworkout, then the rest low GI later?

Sure wish we could get you to start eating meat, I personally think it would make a big difference in helping you achieve your lifting goals and body composition.

If that's true, then I wish so, too. There are just so many reasons, GOOD reasons, for me to stay with vegetarianism. Besides which, I'm still a real novice. I'd like to see how far I can really push myself, for at LEAST 5 years, to build some decently mature muscle, before I even think about looking at changes like eating meat or AAS or whatever as options. It's unlikely I ever will resort to them, but I still think at this stage it would be inappropriate for me to consider them. (I know I shouldn't lump those 2 in the same category, but they're both the same no-no to me).

Anyway, thanks again.

 

[Suzie]

Eating meat...

I think W6 has right, on that eating meat thing.
Trust me, I have also been a vegetarian, but when I began eating meat, I made huge changes in my body!
Much more harder and fuller etc. I wasn`t the only one who noticed that.
I wish I had (before&after) pictures to show You that... but I have only after...

 

[AE86Turbo]

Would love to see those pics suzie.

Anyway you gotta have protein. Whether it comes from food or not, It is very important

 

[wilson6]

"far I can really push myself, for at LEAST 5 years, to build some decently mature muscle, before I even think about looking at changes like eating meat"

1) mature muscle is meat. You want to build it but not eat it?

2) you're not getting any younger you're only slowing you're progress that age will slow regardless. In five years it may be harder to build muscle than it is now, so it makes no sense not to optimize as much as possible now.

3) Eating meat cannot be compared to taking steroids from a health perspective. No comparison.

" Er ... well, after weeks of huge and frustrating indecision I finally decided to try a 40/40/20 split, so I'm not going high/low carb right now. I figured that way, if I hit a wall along the way, I can still try carb cycling to mix things up, and in the meantime it's less complicated. (???"

Come on Steel, get with the program. You're line of thinking here makes no sense. You ask for all this advice, we take the time to post, use your head and plan out a diet. Others have done what you are planning on doing and have had better results with carb cycling, why take the half-ass approach to this?

How hard is 2.0 x bodyweight in kilos and 0.5 x bodyweight in kilos? and a 3 day at 2.0 and 2 day at 0.5?

This ain't rocket science. A pencil, paper and calculator will do the job. Quit making excuses and work out a program for yourself.

W6

 

[SteelWeaver]

1) mature muscle is meat. You want to build it but not eat it?

Heh heh - better rippling on me than putrifying on my plate or in my gut! If Clarence Bass, Bill Pearl and MS can do it, why not me?

2) you're not getting any younger you're only slowing you're progress that age will slow regardless. In five years it may be harder to build muscle than it is now, so it makes no sense not to optimize as much as possible now.

Point taken - but who knows where I'll be even 2 years from now? I don't think I'm making terrible progress - maybe it's a little slow - I don't know - everyone's DIFFERENT. But I DO know that I'm making better progress even than some of the skinny guys over on the training board. And according to one of MS's posts about gains in LBM, I'm gaining LESS LBM right now than I will be once my bodyfat drops and I start eating more again after my comp. I would like to go through a few comp. prep, cycles to see how my body responds. This is reasonable, no?

3) Eating meat cannot be compared to taking steroids from a health perspective. No comparison.

There are many more levels besides health upon which the two cannot be compared, but from a psychological perspective, they're very similar for me.

Come on Steel, get with the program. You're line of thinking here makes no sense. You ask for all this advice, we take the time to post, use your head and plan out a diet. Others have done what you are planning on doing and have had better results with carb cycling, why take the half-ass approach to this?

How hard is 2.0 x bodyweight in kilos and 0.5 x bodyweight in kilos? and a 3 day at 2.0 and 2 day at 0.5?

This ain't rocket science. A pencil, paper and calculator will do the job. Quit making excuses and work out a program for yourself.

Well, actually, I've planned out about 6 or 7 diets, down to the last half gram, in the past few weeks. I've posted several of them, here and on the diet board - I got practically zero response. It took two weeks before I could even nail down the calorie numbers.

I have pages and pages of calculations, and more pages and pages of daily meal plans. I've read Mr X's and Par Deus' articles on carb cycling, and have read many other posts on the same subject. I still don't understand EXACTLY why it's supposed to be better, but I got the idea that basically, it keeps the body guessing with regard to glucose metabolism (??)

Anyway, on the other hand, MS swears by a 40/40/20 or 45/45/10 split, and has stated that she and her clients have come in totally shredded on this type of diet. I figured, with her being vegetarian, and generally knowing what she's talking about, that if it could work for her, then it could work for me.

So what's a girl to do? You and MS can generally be regarded as being the most knowledgable and experienced people on this board with female BB'ing diets, but you have entirely opposing philosophies. How'm I supposed to choose??

2.0 x bodyweight in kilos and 0.5 x bodyweight in kilos is easy. How much protein, how much fat? How many calories? I'm on 2000/day (170lbs/77kg).

And please don't think I don't appreciate your posts, or the time it takes - I do - I don't know what I'd do without this forum.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Bump for W6

 

[MS]

I'm not W6

But I will hand on a bit of wisdom that I was given from the guy who coached me for my first ever BB comp. He said something to the effect that "there are hundreds, if not thousands of different ways to prepare for a BB competition. They may all work equally well, but I ask that you don't try to mix and match methods. Feel free to play around with things AFTER you've got a feel for this competition".

In other words just pick a game plan and stick with it. Don't agonize too much over which method to use. I did an informal survey at the post competition meal at our last year's nationals. I asked 5 of the first in class women and 2 men about their pre comp diets (it was a poor survey because I didn't ask any of the last in class folks!). Their diets ranged from 40:40:20 to 45:45:10, with the overall men's winner using a 50:30:20 (P:C:F). This guy also drank 2 litres of skim milk each day except for the last week pre comp. So much for the "no dairy" superstition. To be fair, he is reknowned for being the biggest juicehead in the southern hemisphere, and he was loaded with synthol to boot! Everybody else had regular cheat meals, some high carb, others whatever they felt like. Not a single one of them used a keto diet. Some of the high carb cheaters could be said to be 'carb cycling'. I know I carb cycle by having high carb/low fat cheat meals as needed. I guarantee that Wilson6's method will work if you get the calories right. I guarantee my method will work if you get the calories right, but my method requires either a good trainer to watch over you, or for you to be in touch enough with your body to know when you need a high carb refeed. From this perspective alone I think maybe W6's method might be easier for your first comp. You cycle your carbs by the calendar instead of by sixth sense.

Oh well, hope I haven't confused ya even more!

 

[SteelWeaver]

Oh, MS, I am SO confused and frustrated - I just don't know WHAT to do! I'm so torn, because every time I make a decision, do all the calculations, then make the meal plans, etc., somebody says something else to make me wonder if it's the right decision, or if I've even got the numbers right.

I've been on 40/40/20, 2000 cals per day, since 1 Jan. I guess I've lost half a kilo (without training because of my back), but I lost 2 kilos in the week or so preceding that because I wasn't training and cut my calories slightly (and came off creatine).

So 40/40/20 at 2000 cals is 200g P, 200g C, 45g F. I decided to go with this because it's much easier to balance a veg diet with more carbs in it, but is this enough protein?

Also, I don't really feel the need to carb up, yet - this seems like a very reasonable number of carbs. I don't suppose you could describe the "I need to carb-up" feeling ...

Doesn't the carb cycling method include a cheat-style carb-up meal once a week? I thought all the diets here included that?

Over on the diet board everyone keeps saying stuff like "don't worry about calories, just do this number of grams of blah de blah", but now suddenly you're saying it depends on if the calories are right. (?)

Do you mind me asking if there's a special reason you choose to go with 40/40/20 or higher, instead of carb cycling? Is it the extra energy?

 

[MS]

It doesn't matter if we're talking grams, calories, or thingymawidgets.......You have to take in less calories than you burn if you want to lose fat (AAS aside). All I'm saying is that any of the diets you're contemplating will work fine as long as you're protein is high enough (which it is) and you're calories are slightly below maintanence. And you need some high carb refeeds in the equation, but you won't need them very often to begin with. Maybe once every two weeks in the beginning of your diet, then increasing frequency as you get leaner. Even with Wilson6's carb cycling I would think you'll need some carb refeeds in there because the high carb days are not that high carb. For me, 2g per kg bodyweight is barely surviving (but just enough) if I want intensity in the gym! How to know when you need more carbs........That is the question. When you're muscles are flat and your intensity sucks....better yet is when your trainer says you LOOK flat, because we all know how the mirror can lie when we just want an excuse to eat some sugar! LOL.

Your frustration about conflicting info is normal. It was the key message my beloved coach was trying to get through to me. He also basically said that you WILL read and hear lots of conflicting advice, and you WILL be tempted to try it all first time, but patience and faith can both be virtues if vested in the right hands.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks MS. Patience and faith, huh? Well, I have oodles of those - given the numbers and facts to fix them on.

So, this is what I need to do:

1) Work out like a demon in the gym.
2) Get lots of sleep.
3) Do cardio (often on empty stomach). Adjust it up or down according to fat loss.
4) Follow my diet. Adjust it up or down according to fat loss.
5) Get my gym owner (or find trainer) to tell me when I look "flat" (you can't be a JFBB judge for years and years and not be able to recognise "flat").
6) Then carb up.
7) Maintain patience and faith (and keep checking the numbers).

I have 20 weeks to my comp. If you were right about how much weight I have to lose, then I'm looking at close to 1.5 lbs per week, right?

If it doesn't work this time around, fine - it's been planned as a practice run all along (something I had lost sight of amongst my diet angst) and there's a "weight-class separated" (I don't know the English translation) comp. July 21. Maybe I can try that one, too.

 

[MS]

Yup, you've got the idea. Now as for that cardio, go easy in the beginning. Let the diet work it's charm. Find a caloire intake that allows you to lose that 1.5kg per week and stick to it until the weight loss slows. THEN you start gradually adding in the cardio. In other words you set the diet for fatloss, but your body will eventually adapt and slow, so then you use cardio to boost it up again. OK?

 

[wilson6]

MS, You mean 1.5 lbs or 0.68 kg/wk. Personally, one lb or 0.46 kg/wk is about as far as I'd go naturally, even juiced for that matter if you want to preserve muscle. It is always best to diet slowly to maintain lean mass and strength.

W6

 

[wilson6]

Begin with one idea and try it. If it doesn't work, try another. But give each at least 8-10 weeks. Stay with the one that works best.

The 2.0 g/kg is a rough est. There are many factors that go into that. When Ms Wilson had a very active job, she could eat between 2400 - 2800 calories per day precontest and lose about a pound of fat a week. Her low carb day was 130 grams and high carb was 270 grams.

Now its about 1000 calories less a day and the high/low carbs are about 50 and 150, respectively.

As I've said at least 50 times now, you have to tailor this to you and it will take a couple of YEARS to figure out what works best FOR YOU.

W6

 

[MS]

Oh deary me, yes I meant 1.5lbs, NOT kilos!! This is the maximum "safe" amount to aim for.

 

[SteelWeaver]

"Begin with one idea and try it. If it doesn't work, try another. But give each at least 8-10 weeks. Stay with the one that works best. "

Dude! Isn't this what I said in the first place? Never mind - here, for both of you for bearing with me: Thank you, thank you.

Now, if I may ask one final question ... I know this could be pushing my luck, but anyway ...

How much water weight would that 1.5 lbs per week include? I mean ... I'm going to have to carb-deplete in the final week, right? How much weight usually comes off then? Because when you originally calculated how much I had to lose, MS, you talked about a whole bunch of water weight, which I've included here. Does that come off bit by bit with the fat?

 

[MS]

??Dunno??

It depends on whether or not you're sodium sensitive (I am), and how much sodium you have in your diet. You will lose some water initially as your body adjusts to lowered carb intake. Don't worry about water weight. Just aim for your 1.5lb average per week, and continue until you're shredded! You'll lose some extra weight in that last week, but again it doesn't matter unless you're worried about making a weight class.