lat pull downs vs pull ups

[teirrah]

Hi everyone, this is the first time I have posted so I'd just like to start by thanking everyone who contributes for the enormous learning curve I have been on since I started reading the Elite womens board about 4 months ago. I have been training seriously for about a year, but only more intelligently since Steel Weaver suggested I dump the belt, strengthen my lower back and check out Elite. Best advice I've had, I had a summer of eating clean, training hard and for the first time in my life was happy to be on the beach...
Ok, so here's my question:what would give me better lat development, more pull ups or lat pull downs? I used to do behind the head lat pull downs til I read that doing so is asking for rotar cuff problems, so for a couple of workouts have done pull downs in front, giving an extra squeeze at the bottom but it just doesn't feel as effective. I have switched from a twice weekly upper back workout to this once weekly:

Wide grip palm facing me pull ups 25
Lat pull downs 3 sets, 8 to 12
Single arm dumbell rows 4 sets, 8 to 12
Cable rowing 4 sets 8 to 12
Close grip palm facing me lat pull downs 3 sets, 10 to 15

The pull ups are in one go but it takes a while as I do maybe 6 in the first go, then the rest in 4s til eventually I reach target.

I would really appreciate any comments or feedback. Thanks!

 

[teirrah]

No, they don't hurt my wrists at all, if anything its my forearms that feel it more than wrists but nothing is painful, just tiring.
I don't wear gloves or straps but hanging onto the bar is not a problem, its the pulling myself up part! When I said wide grip, eek, am I being misleading as my hands are wider than shoulder width apart but not wide wide. I do close grip pull ups for biceps which I find easier and gives me more intensity, I really feel it working my biceps but for wider grip pull ups I can feel my lats, tho I can feel biceps are working too. I'd like to do palms away pull ups but I can't do more than a few without cheating....

When I started training seriously doing a pull up was one of my goals, they seemed hardass,so now that I can I'd like to stick with them if possible.

 

[takniteasy]

I found that wide, palm away grip pull ups gave me the best development and width. Even if you can only do a few at first, keep on doing them. Eventually you will get stronger.

 

[JJFigure]

Personally, I find heavy rows develop the best back; have you ever incorporated heavy barbell rows? I'd shoot for 5x5 for both barbell and dumbell rows. IMO, sets of 8-12 reps means you are handling too little weight if your goal is to develop back thickness and width.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Pull-ups are key on any back day. One tip that I do is to "hang" in the full streched down position for at LEASE A FULL SECOND before pulling back up. And then again in the full "up" position (if you can) No swinging, no rocking and keep your legs straight, don't be doing ab work while doing pull ups.

Widegrip, DEAD HANG pull-ups AWESOME EXCERSIZE; should be an important of everyones back workout...

...that and the old DEADLIFT will give you EXCELLENT lat development.

 

[Bikini Mod]

Yes, I must say that MENTALLY it feels OH SO GOOD when I can execute a good set of pull-ups in front of all the He-man gym pansies... LOL

Sucks ass being a weakling anymore.

 

[takniteasy]

KiniMom, I am right there with ya! When I do pull ups at the gym now the guys look at me like I am crazy at first, then when I am done with my 4xsets of 12r and move on to something else, they sure make a wide path for me. Something about a gal being able to do pullups that gets respect from men. I geuss its because I am small and dont look strong that gets to them.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Hey teirrah, nice to see you back. Sorry, got sick of the standing calf machine at the old gym, and the loose dumbbells - at Gold's now - 24 hours

Pulls ups are great for back. Now if I could just do a few of them .... You might also want to include some deadlifts for overall development.

Now, excuse me for going a bit off topic, but I have a question here, for everyone on this thread, and anyone who contributed to my short, intense thread ...

Why hasn't anyone mentioned that 15 sets for back is too much? Or is it NOT too much?????

I am getting extremely frustrated and confused abut the whole volume question

teirrah - ganbatte, ne!

 

[teirrah]

Many thanks to everyone who posted advice, I greatly appreciate it and on back days will
1. work on wide grip palms away pull ups
2. lift heavier for dumbell rows but lower reps
3. for pull ups work on better form: I know I am guilty of bending my legs and swinging when it gets grim, and hold at top and bottom.

Don't deadlifts put a lot of strain on the lower back? Because of lower back problems in the past I haven't gone near them and am just doing hyperextensions and good mornings but maybe I need to be less cautious?

I really agree with the mental dimension to pull ups, I think personally its connected to the fact that you're pulling up your own bodyweight and I like that sort of primal element.

 

[Bikini Mod]

You do Goodmornings, but won't do deadlifts for fear of hurting your lower back?!

 

[teirrah]

Err, yes. Have a feeling this could come under the category of what you say at the end of your replies Bikinimom, about our most tragic decisions being based on fear...

I do goodmornings with minimal minimal weight though, but deadlifts make me nervous.. however what do you think about starting with no weight only a bar and having someone watch over me to check form? Its just struck me as I am typing this that one of the really great things about Elite is that now thanks to people's replies to my first post, I feel am on the cusp of conquering my fear of deadlifts. Thanks all round.

 

[vinylgroover]

I agree, deadlifts will do more to strengthen any weakness in your back than any other exercise. USE a belt, particularly if you have back problems, and do them on leg day or some other day rather than back day, until you develop sufficient strength there. Doing them on back day may overload your lower back initially.

Using a belt will not significantly restrict your muscle development, but will greatly reduce the risk of injury. The belt does not lift the weight, it simply supports you. I find it ridiculous when people say it restricts your back development. The nly ting that restricts back development is poor form.

Incorporate barbell rows. You shouldn't need any more than pull-ups, barbell rows and deadlifts for your back. They are the meat and potatoes for your back.

 

[JJFigure]

I LOVE deadlifts. Its my favorite lift, and IMO the best back developer out there. I just wasn't sure to bring them up - some women are turned off on the idea of deads. If you can, find someone at your gym who can help you with the form. You also need to get the bar at the right level to begin with; basically, the same level the bar would be at with 45 lb. plates on it while sitting on the floor. You can usually adjust one of the power racks to get close to this level. I don't recommend just jumping to 45 lb. plates (like I did the first time); you'll need to work your way up and get the form down. Once you find proper form and can start using some poundage, I think you'll fall in love with them too. It's an awesome lift (and another gym stopper when women are doing it). Plus, it forces you to focus on getting and keeping a strong lower back.

 

[w84me]

I totally agree with JJFigure. Use the aerobics bench to lift your weights up to better height initially.

 

[teirrah]

Thanks for the advice on this, looking forward to putting it into action, too bad I just trained legs today but think I will slip in some starter deadlifts tomorrow.