Just a question while I'm bored

[itlnstln]

We ALL know that taking gear while being fat is a POOR choice, but i was just curious - has "anyone" ever heard of or seen anyone with high BF levels benefit from test-based cycle?

I'm talking 25+% bodyfat

No need to mention how stupid it is, or mention why anyone would want to do it - that's just a waste of time.

it's just a curiosity question.

 

[fergie]

they will gain size but also put on more flab and if your at 25% you dont need anymore flab

 

[digimon7068]

they will gain size but also put on more flab and if your at 25% you dont need anymore flab

I'm not doubting you but, what if the gear was combined with intense exercise and a good diet? Doesn't increased muscle also increase your metabolism??

 

[itlnstln]

I'm not doubting you but, what if the gear was combined with intense exercise and a good diet? Doesn't increased muscle also increase your metabolism??

that was what I was thining - you know - one lb. of additional muscle = x amount of calories burned while resting.

If someone with BF of 25% took a GOOD cycle, gained 10lbs of solid muscle - ate perfectly clean - did enough cardio every day to not hinder gains - could he/she actually add muscle and lose fat at the same time?

(again - forget the Blood pressure, etc comments ) this is all hypothetical.

 

[bluehen]

We ALL know that taking gear while being fat is a POOR choice, but i was just curious - has "anyone" ever heard of or seen anyone with high BF levels benefit from test-based cycle?

I'm talking 25+% bodyfat

No need to mention how stupid it is, or mention why anyone would want to do it - that's just a waste of time.

it's just a curiosity question.

Look at powerlifters.

 

[itlnstln]

Look at powerlifters.

Do you really think powerlifters are over 25% bodyfat?

You're telling me there's hardcore juicers out there who are 30%+ BF????

 

[hankes64]

Some powerlifters are over 25% and they juice hardcore.

 

[Makavelli]

Yes, you can benefit from a cycle with test when you are fat. You will have to use a lot of Arimidex, otherwise estrogen will get too high and you won't get lean as quickly as you would otherwise. Remember that adipocytes, fat cells, are a major converting site of test to estrogen. So the more fat you have, the higher your estrogen levels are. The higher your estrogen levels are, the harder time you'll have to lose fat. It's a snowball effect.

 

[fergie]

I did a cycle a long time ago when I first started juicing and I was about 25% or so........ I ate fairly clean but used only nolvadex to fight estrogen, I gained muscle but also fat from then on in I promised myself never to do it again.

 

[itlnstln]

Yes, you can benefit from a cycle with test when you are fat. You will have to use a lot of Arimidex, otherwise estrogen will get too high and you won't get lean as quickly as you would otherwise. Remember that adipocytes, fat cells, are a major converting site of test to estrogen. So the more fat you have, the higher your estrogen levels are. The higher your estrogen levels are, the harder time you'll have to lose fat. It's a snowball effect.

Alright - good responses - and this might actually help some overweight people (who are gonna juice anyway) - get some much needed cycle advice that could help them avoid the typical overweight-cycle problems/side effects.

questions - how much "more" arimidex would a 30% bf person need on a strong test cycle?

- is this allthey can do to make decent gains and lose a littel fat at the same time?

 

[digimon7068]

I did a cycle a long time ago when I first started juicing and I was about 25% or so........ I ate fairly clean but used only nolvadex to fight estrogen, I gained muscle but also fat from then on in I promised myself never to do it again.

How much nolva did you use per day (mg's), how far into the cycle did you start using it and, did you also run it for a while during pct??

I'm going to start test, deca, dbol in a few weeks and all I have (right now) is nolva, 84 20mg tabs. That's enough for 12 weeks at 20mg per day but I think that most people use less mg per day. Thoughts?? My body fat level isn't too bad right now. . .just the usual post-holiday BS. . .probably more water than fat

 

[bicepts101]

lets be serious here...steroids DO work and they will burn fat. most ment that are 25% bf are cause of low test levels. just changing the ratio will help the person lose fat. i do not suggest it by any means but HRT is a good option for these people if their done with kids and such

 

[swordfish151]

lets be serious here...steroids DO work and they will burn fat. most ment that are 25% bf are cause of low test levels. just changing the ratio will help the person lose fat. i do not suggest it by any means but HRT is a good option for these people if their done with kids and such

I agree...however they MUST know how to eat..we get alot of "fat" posters in here thinking that juicing is the quick fix...if you dont know anything about DIET and working out...then your just spinning your wheels

 

[fergie]

steroids do not burn fat......

 

[fergie]

How much nolva did you use per day (mg's), how far into the cycle did you start using it and, did you also run it for a while during pct??

I'm going to start test, deca, dbol in a few weeks and all I have (right now) is nolva, 84 20mg tabs. That's enough for 12 weeks at 20mg per day but I think that most people use less mg per day. Thoughts?? My body fat level isn't too bad right now. . .just the usual post-holiday BS. . .probably more water than fat

I started using it about 2 weeks in once my gyno started to flare up and then throughout my cycle and into pct @ 40mg's / ed

 

[Big_Joe]

lets be serious here...steroids DO work and they will burn fat. most ment that are 25% bf are cause of low test levels. just changing the ratio will help the person lose fat. i do not suggest it by any means but HRT is a good option for these people if their done with kids and such

This is correct. It's now being called metabolic disease. Most of the middle age men you see with distended guts are from low test levels over a long period of time. There is mounting evidence that this has come about from environmental estrogens. These estrogens mainly come from plastics off gassing and pesticides. A persons HPTA sees these environmental estrogens and reduces production of testosterone in males. This creates a chronic state of low test levels. The best solution is to remove the environmental estrogens but that just can't be done. So the next best thing is HRT.

This is a really big problem. There is evidence that environmental estrogens feminize developing boys brains. And is responsible for the early onset of puberty in girls.

 

[HiDnGoD]

lets be serious here...steroids DO work and they will burn fat. most ment that are 25% bf are cause of low test levels. just changing the ratio will help the person lose fat. i do not suggest it by any means but HRT is a good option for these people if their done with kids and such

This is the first time I've seen this subject addressed directly.
I've been on HRT for 4 yrs. Test levels are still low, but a lot of the sides, have, ah, subsided. Except the bf. I'm around 28% & nothing I do seems to help. I've done endurance cardio, I've done sprints. I've done them both on the same day. I've lifted for power, I've done circuit, & regular bodybuilding type workouts. I've been lifting for over 10 yrs & made some of my best gains since on HRT, but I'm still not where I should be.
I'm considering doing a cycle, but I have momre research to do. Since I'm on HRT, do I still need to do PCT? That's not just for the 'nads, but for Est too, isn't it?

 

[bicepts101]

This is the first time I've seen this subject addressed directly.
I've been on HRT for 4 yrs. Test levels are still low, but a lot of the sides, have, ah, subsided. Except the bf. I'm around 28% & nothing I do seems to help. I've done endurance cardio, I've done sprints. I've done them both on the same day. I've lifted for power, I've done circuit, & regular bodybuilding type workouts. I've been lifting for over 10 yrs & made some of my best gains since on HRT, but I'm still not where I should be.
I'm considering doing a cycle, but I have momre research to do. Since I'm on HRT, do I still need to do PCT? That's not just for the 'nads, but for Est too, isn't it?

dont worry about pct bro if u are on hrt.

whats ur diet bro..there has to be a big problem somewhere.....have u had ur thyroid tested? that could be the issue

 

[HiDnGoD]

dont worry about pct bro if u are on hrt.

whats ur diet bro..there has to be a big problem somewhere.....have u had ur thyroid tested? that could be the issue

Weekends are generally disorganized, but weekdays are pretty clean. Lots of chicken/Tuna,Veggies. Light on the carbs.
My sleep sucks. I have sleep apnea & sinus problems.
Dr. Hasn't mentioned thyroid, & I'll have to dig up the blood test results.
Oh, I'm type II diabetic too. Have been for close to 10 years. Not on Insulin.

 

[shamrock11]

I'm not doubting you but, what if the gear was combined with intense exercise and a good diet? Doesn't increased muscle also increase your metabolism??

Yes when you add more muscle your basal metabolic rate increases. I believe it is something like 250 cals for every extra pound of muscle you add.

 

[hankes64]

lets be serious here...steroids DO work and they will burn fat. most ment that are 25% bf are cause of low test levels. just changing the ratio will help the person lose fat. i do not suggest it by any means but HRT is a good option for these people if their done with kids and such

test in itself does not burn fat at all, it adds lean body mass which in return has a lower % of BF because of the increased muscle mass.

 

[mendo]

This is a great thread. I get tired of all the "don't juice when you're over 12%" threads. OF COURSE its better to be lean first, but the reality is some high BF guys are gonna do it anyway and there are some things they should know about that aren't the same for a guy with low BF. Like the extra need for AIs. I'm not advocating taking steriods when you should just be dieting and dropping some fat, but a fat guy can certainly make it even worse on himself if he juices without the basic knowledge of what his risks are.

 

[RADAR]

Some powerlifters are over 25% and they juice hardcore.

Also Power lifters are not the run out of shape guys who walk in off the streets either-theres a difference!


RADAR

 

[PolfaJelfa]

Of course your gona benefit..and better than someone who is not eating slopy..reason is your gettign a wide range of nutrients. Now you may not see it that clearly...but it will be added under the fat. Once you loose the fat itl still be under there. Im a fat fuck and im bulking....i follow the lee priest guidlines. Healthy probibaly not..its actually the last time i plan to get so sloppy. Next time i will stay ...somewhat lean...no double chins.

 

[hankes64]

Also Power lifters are not the run out of shape guys who walk in off the streets either-theres a difference!


RADAR

Yup but as stated, people over 25% BF, nonetheless some guys fall into this and this was merely an example. The guy that walks off the street and does it is a dumb ass.

 

[itlnstln]

OK - to finish this thread off - what would a sample diet look like for someone who was , say, 30% BF and was on moderate levels of test for a typical 12-15 week cycle?

How much cardio/day?
ECA?
etc..............

 

[HiDnGoD]

OK - to finish this thread off - what would a sample diet look like for someone who was , say, 30% BF and was on moderate levels of test for a typical 12-15 week cycle?

How much cardio/day?
ECA?
etc..............

......

 

[hankes64]

OK - to finish this thread off - what would a sample diet look like for someone who was , say, 30% BF and was on moderate levels of test for a typical 12-15 week cycle?

How much cardio/day?
ECA?
etc..............

A cutting diet of 1200 cals less of maintanence so they dont need to be 30%

 

[cyrex]

A cutting diet of 1200 cals less of maintanence so they dont need to be 30%

I'd say stick them on a 8 week clen/ECA stack (2 weeks on/off of each) along with that diet first and some anavar during that time.
then hop onto a real cycle.

 

[HiDnGoD]

I'd say stick them on a 8 week clen/ECA stack (2 weeks on/off of each) along with that diet first and some anavar during that time.
then hop onto a real stack.

Alternating?

 

[itlnstln]

I'd say stick them on a 8 week clen/ECA stack (2 weeks on/off of each) along with that diet first and some anavar during that time.
then hop onto a real stack.

Yeah - those are the "generic" responses I was looking to avoid in the first place with this hypothetical post.

Obviously "EVERYONE" knows a person with 30% bf should lost fat before a cycle - so there's no need to keep stating it, I was hoping this thread could be a little different (for once).............

Can you think outside of the box for 2 sec and just answer the hypothetical question of what would be the best diet for gaining muscle and losing fat while on a solid cycle with a high % bodyfat?

 

[nuevo laredo]

How about this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406047

 

[cyrex]

Yeah - those are the "generic" responses I was looking to avoid in the first place with this hypothetical post.

Obviously "EVERYONE" knows a person with 30% bf should lost fat before a cycle - so there's no need to keep stating it, I was hoping this thread could be a little different (for once).............

Can you think outside of the box for 2 sec and just answer the hypothetical question of what would be the best diet for gaining muscle and losing fat while on a solid cycle with a high % bodyfat?

I mentioned anavar!...

 

[itlnstln]

How about this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406047

GREAT thread and info - but he wasn't on a cycle.

 

[itlnstln]

I mentioned anavar!...

Yeah - as I said - your info was right on, - but you wanted a light cutting cycle - then a "real stack"

I'm STILL looking for a diet/training plan for the guy who wants to do the real stack now.

 

[PolfaJelfa]

And 30% is too much. Thats damn near pushing it. im talking about 20's. 20's= bulking 30's= too much

 

[itlnstln]

And 30% is too much. Thats damn near pushing it. im talking about 20's. 20's= bulking 30's= too much

Good info - so i would assume that someone 30%+ would be a "ticking time-bomb" on juice?

 

[PolfaJelfa]

I dont know about that...if they stay like that for ever without loosing fat i would say so. To each his own.

 

[HiDnGoD]

Alternating?

...?

 

[hankes64]

I'd say stick them on a 8 week clen/ECA stack (2 weeks on/off of each) along with that diet first and some anavar during that time.
then hop onto a real cycle.

Sorry man but thats terrible advice. How do you know they dont have any heart conditions? Clen can be some dangerous stuff if you are not careful, you could have a heart attack pretty quick. I would never tell anyone to do that to lose fat unless they were Jay Cutler. I would stick them on a diet and training plan so that way they dont have a rebound effect unlike when you get off some "cutting stack" and they eat the same old shit and gain the weight back.

 

[itlnstln]

PLEASE

Humor me (and anyone else who cares about this topic)

What would a diet/workout routine look like for a person with HIGH B/F who is on a REAL cycle (not cutting)

This was really the original question...........

 

[hankes64]

PLEASE

Humor me (and anyone else who cares about this topic)

What would a diet/workout routine look like for a person with HIGH B/F who is on a REAL cycle (not cutting)

This was really the original question...........

I would say since the BF is really high then I would do a maintanence (to keep the same weight) diet because his muscle mass will be lacking and could use the macros that otherwise would go as fat or energy would now be used for the cycle, I would also venture coupled with cardio it would make him lose fat in the process also, not really a cutting diet but it is in a way

This is my 2 cents

 

[cyrex]

I'd say Carnivore diet
just at BMR. Getting enough protein to put on some muscle. Toss in some sesapure to keep the muscle with the caloric deficit (from working out)

20 min cardio 2xweek to help speed fat loss but not hinder gains


Cycle (person's first cycle?)
Test E 250mg 2x/week wk1-12
Anavar 60mg ED 6-12

Arimidex 1-1.5 mg ED (last thing this guy wants is bloat)



Workout routine. I'd say a 5x5 to start out that way he can work up slowly. Then 4 days on 2 days off routine making sure to have Squats, Deadlifts, Bench Press, Military Press, and rows in there.

Assuming everything goes perfectly over the course of 12 weeks

he will lose 20 lbs fat, gain 25 lbs muscle


So let's say Joe Schmoe is 5'10" 250lbs 30% bf
LBM 175

This means he ends up at 255 lbs at 21% bf over the course of 12 weeks.
He lost 1.6 lbs fat per week (reasonable)
He gained 2.08 lbs muscle per week (reasonable on roids)

Toss in some IGF during PCT and he can keep all the muscle gains and maybe drop another 6 lbs of fat over the next 4 weeks.


Diet and train for another 4 weeks and rinse and repeat:

Say the guy is at 255 21.5% bf
Similar flip/flop with fat and muscle but it's hard to lose fat this time:
he only loses 10 lbs but still gains 25 lbs

he ends up at 270 lbs and around 16-17% bf....

Ideal world assuming this guy completely forgets all the habits that got him to 30% bf in the first place.

Now could a vet please say if this is possible or not with these assumptions? ;-)

 

[itlnstln]

I would say since the BF is really high then I would do a maintanence (to keep the same weight) diet because his muscle mass will be lacking and could use the macros that otherwise would go as fat or energy would now be used for the cycle, I would also venture coupled with cardio it would make him lose fat in the process also, not really a cutting diet but it is in a way

This is my 2 cents

But the diet would still be CLEAN and contain all the same characteristics of a good cycle diet?


***nice info***

 

[hankes64]

But the diet would still be CLEAN and contain all the same characteristics of a good cycle diet?


***nice info***

Yes clean is optimal, if not obviously the guy will get fat

 

[bluehen]

Do you really think powerlifters are over 25% bodyfat?

You're telling me there's hardcore juicers out there who are 30%+ BF????

Look at the NFL linemen they are well over 30% bf and well over 300lbs think they are clean?

 

[cyrex]

I doubt too many are over 30% bf maybe around 25-30 but not over.

 

[itlnstln]

I'd say Carnivore diet
just at BMR. Getting enough protein to put on some muscle. Toss in some sesapure to keep the muscle with the caloric deficit (from working out)

20 min cardio 2xweek to help speed fat loss but not hinder gains


Cycle (person's first cycle?)
Test E 250mg 2x/week wk1-12
Anavar 60mg ED 6-12

Arimidex 1-1.5 mg ED (last thing this guy wants is bloat)



Workout routine. I'd say a 5x5 to start out that way he can work up slowly. Then 4 days on 2 days off routine making sure to have Squats, Deadlifts, Bench Press, Military Press, and rows in there.

Assuming everything goes perfectly over the course of 12 weeks

he will lose 20 lbs fat, gain 25 lbs muscle


So let's say Joe Schmoe is 5'10" 250lbs 30% bf
LBM 175

This means he ends up at 255 lbs at 21% bf over the course of 12 weeks.
He lost 1.6 lbs fat per week (reasonable)
He gained 2.08 lbs muscle per week (reasonable on roids)

Toss in some IGF during PCT and he can keep all the muscle gains and maybe drop another 6 lbs of fat over the next 4 weeks.


Diet and train for another 4 weeks and rinse and repeat:

Say the guy is at 255 21.5% bf
Similar flip/flop with fat and muscle but it's hard to lose fat this time:
he only loses 10 lbs but still gains 25 lbs

he ends up at 270 lbs and around 16-17% bf....

Ideal world assuming this guy completely forgets all the habits that got him to 30% bf in the first place.

Now could a vet please say if this is possible or not with these assumptions? ;-)

Wow - nice info bro - any Vets?

 

[LVTitan]

GREAT thread and info - but he wasn't on a cycle.

hello ?? are you listening to advice bro..
he wasnt on a cycle, because he didnt need to be.
steroids dont do the work for you bro... why does everyone think juice is the easy way out.
i have way more respect for a guy like pinto than any juicer who made his body want he wanted it to be.
now imagine if pinto went on a cycle to put on some serious muscle, after he got his bf down, now is the time to to get big

steroids have their place, but it's not in the body of some guy with 30% bf

 

[itlnstln]

hello ?? are you listening to advice bro..
he wasnt on a cycle, because he didnt need to be.
steroids dont do the work for you bro... why does everyone think juice is the easy way out.
i have way more respect for a guy like pinto than any juicer who made his body want he wanted it to be.
now imagine if pinto went on a cycle to put on some serious muscle, after he got his bf down, now is the time to to get big

steroids have their place, but it's not in the body of some guy with 30% bf

You're right (about YOUR scenario) - but not THIS one.

This thread was simply about high bodyfat - AND a cycle - ***period***

If you don't agree with the content - simply don't respond to it...........

 

[LVTitan]

that's like asking us which caliber revolver we would recomend you play russian roulette with ..
no one wants to answer that question, it is fucking hard to imagine why you want to do something like that..

so my short answer to your question is :























357 magnum

 

[itlnstln]

that's like asking us which caliber revolver we would recomend you play russian roulette with ..
no one wants to answer that question, it is fucking hard to imagine why you want to do something like that..

so my short answer to your question is :























357 magnum

..........................................................................

 

[LVTitan]

sorry bor,

 

[itlnstln]

sorry bor,

Don't apologize - I guess I was just thinking of this as more than it really was - no big deal.

the scenario doesn't pretain to me - but it could have a year ago, that why I care about it.

I will still be curious as to what you would advise for diet exercise to someone who is "already" starting the cycle, (aside from the typical, predictable answers)


that's all..........