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Is More Always Better?

SUST-MAN

New member
Seriously....

Some people thing more steroids is the key.

You can make amazing gains with a moderate amount of steroids....and a GREAT DIET....and GREAT WORK ETHIC

Especially the newbies...

You dont NEED 1000+ mg of test....you need to eat right and workout hard.

Sorry....just venting. I keep reading alot of BS in these posts.
 
i agree 100% there is no way one needs to take some of the ridiculus amounts that have been stated on the board. There are a few Exceptions however; You know who you are:)

ive ran 3 cycles.

1. anavar 40mg only 8 weeks (if you call this a cycle)
2. fina 75mg eod. 6 weeks
3. fina 75mg ed. 6 weeks

fuck, too many people rely on gear too much, use it as a supplement, the core should be diet training and rest. Get to know your body almost down to a freaking science. I started at 5'10 128 lbs. so dont talk to me about genetics!

knowledge is power, the more you know the more youll grow, its as simple as that.
 
1. Gains are dose dependent.

2. Side effects are dose dependent.

There is a point where #2 outweighs #1 and this is based on your goals. If you want to be a pro bodybuilder the threshold is much higher. If you want twenty pounds of muscle for sports or cosmetic reasons that threshold is much lower.
 
I totally agree. I grow better on 250mg of test than I do with 750mg of test. When you start doing excessive amounts of juice all you end up with are more side effects and less gains. And wasted juice and money.

I laugh at some of these guys thinking more is better punching 1000+ mg of test. Unless you plan on becoming a pro bodybuilder I think it's such a waste in my opinion.
 
SUST-MAN said:
Seriously....

Some people thing more steroids is the key.

You can make amazing gains with a moderate amount of steroids....and a GREAT DIET....and GREAT WORK ETHIC

Especially the newbies...

You dont NEED 1000+ mg of test....you need to eat right and workout hard.

Sorry....just venting. I keep reading alot of BS in these posts.

to develop an body most will find attractive (women especially) then no, you wont need more then 1.5g/week of gear total, if you are looking to go FREAK then its time to power-up on some heavy shit

personally i have been on both sides of the fence, and ill tell you once you start pushing 260lb+ you become very very misarable, slugish, run out of breath, walking becomes a fucking burden; when you are that big every1 assumes you use tons of gear and women tend to be somewhat cautious around you

now adays i stay at very lean, comfortable bodyweight, use moderate amounts of gear to make progress/maintain my body
 
BTW, 1000mg/week/test is not that much gear to use, assuming you dont stack it with anything else besides maybe a little tren or eq
 
serge said:
BTW, 1000mg/week/test is not that much gear to use, assuming you dont stack it with anything else besides maybe a little tren or eq

LOL, You've got problems if you think 1000mg of test is not that much!! What is too much 3000mg?
 
FreakMonster said:


LOL, You've got problems if you think 1000mg of test is not that much!! What is too much 3000mg?

i think he ment of test only.

For example. People will run 30mg dbol ed for 4 weeks, 500mg of test and 400mg of deca. That's known as a typical dosed cycle. although that would add up to a total 1110mg of AS a week with all the drugs that the body will be taking. Most people don't notice this, but a lot of us who say they will never use 1000mg of test already have done it becuse they never added up the total AS of all drugs used in a cycle.
 
Diesel3d said:


i think he ment of test only.

For example. People will run 30mg dbol ed for 4 weeks, 500mg of test and 400mg of deca. That's known as a typical dosed cycle. although that would add up to a total 1110mg of AS a week with all the drugs that the body will be taking. Most people don't notice this, but a lot of us who say they will never use 1000mg of test already have done it becuse they never added up the total AS of all drugs used in a cycle.

yeah, i was going to illustrate that, but some are just too ignorant to see that. most people on here alrady use over a gram of gear per week, they just dont realize it
 
serge said:


yeah, i was going to illustrate that, but some are just too ignorant to see that. most people on here alrady use over a gram of gear per week, they just dont realize it

amen. i have never stacked two substances together because i want to see how my body reacts to it first.

"IF" i were to hit one more cycle it would be test/fina with shit loads of liquidex. But i dont think ill even go that far, lol.
 
JavaGuru said:
1. Gains are dose dependent.

2. Side effects are dose dependent.

There is a point where #2 outweighs #1 and this is based on your goals. If you want to be a pro bodybuilder the threshold is much higher. If you want twenty pounds of muscle for sports or cosmetic reasons that threshold is much lower.

The essentially theory behind chosing how much AS to use! :)

KARMA
 
im not going to get very in depth on this but......


gains are SOMEWHAT dose dependent. there are quite a few variables that are going to play into the actual "anabolism" which you recieve during your cycle. the juice is providing you with an environment which is good for bulding muscle. from that point on your gains will then depend on your training, nutrition, lifestyle, genetics, etc.

people must also remember that your cells will only have a certain amount of available receptors. once these receptors are fully binded to the hormone molecules then no more active molecules will be able to come in contact with the receptors. once your receptors are fully saturated then all of the extra steroid molecules will be wasted just floating around in your blood stream, aromatizing, or even worse, comming in contact with receptors which you dont want them too......such as hair follicles or the prostate gland.

you need to find a happy medium where the overall health of your body is maximized. most bodybuilders have not perfected this yet. most professional bodybuilders are suicidal in my opinion.
 
SUST-MAN said:
But how could you possible know your limit? How can you judge if your over or under the max?

trial and error i guess. Some people have an amazing tolerance with high dosages, others are very low. Again with the genetic issue.

usually when you start getting extrememly bad sides, you know you are over i guess.
 
the smart way to do it is to just start low. if you are getting good results from a lower dosage then there is no need to try and increase it. with repeated steroid use the receptors will build up a bit of a tolerance over time and then there may be a need to increase to higher doses.
 
Its such a contradiction....hehe..

Most people who try steroids do it for quick results.

But they should start out slow and see how it turns out.

I guess thats why so many people overload the juice and get tits.

Thanks for your help guys. Karma to all!
 
Hustler_dt said:
the smart way to do it is to just start low. if you are getting good results from a lower dosage then there is no need to try and increase it. with repeated steroid use the receptors will build up a bit of a tolerance over time and then there may be a need to increase to higher doses.

AR recepter down regulation is a myth. however with each additional cycle, the required dosage must be larger simply to support you current mass AND new mass that is up and coming throughout your cycle.
 
japanese......

i dont think you fully understand what you are talking about. as the muscle cells grow larger they are not gaining more androgen receptors. while a larger person may need to take a LITTLE bit of a higher dosage than a smaller person may need to, it surely isnt accounting for the large spectrum of dosages which we are seeing today.

if a 180 lb person who was on their first cycle would see good results with a low dose of testosterone, lets say 400mg/week. now as this person's body weight and muscle size grows you are saying that they need a higher dosage to keep achieveing gains. this is only partly true. if the person grows and increases their body weight up to 270 lb then they would require a dosage which is increased by the same percentage in which their body weight has increased (according to you). this however is not the case or else you would see 270 lb pro's getting good results from taking only 600mg of test/week. as you probably know many pro's (and amateurs) are taking total steroid doses above 10,000 mg/week. if receptor downgrade and tolerance is a myth then why arent people on these massive doses gaining crazy amounts of size? its because their body's are conditioned to use those large amounts and will not see any substantial gains when using a recreational amount of steroids. this is after years of use of course.

i'll wrap this up quick (way too much stuff for me to go through hehe).......

if receptor downgrade and tolerance was a myth you would never see anyone need the kind of dosage and drug variety which is so wide spread in bodybuliding today.

btw, i think that anyone who are forced to use these giant doses of steroids because of their drug history are out of control and are no longer involved in the healthy aspects of the sport.
 
Hustler_dt said:
japanese......

i dont think you fully understand what you are talking about. as the muscle cells grow larger they are not gaining more androgen receptors. while a larger person may need to take a LITTLE bit of a higher dosage than a smaller person may need to, it surely isnt accounting for the large spectrum of dosages which we are seeing today.

if a 180 lb person who was on their first cycle would see good results with a low dose of testosterone, lets say 400mg/week. now as this person's body weight and muscle size grows you are saying that they need a higher dosage to keep achieveing gains. this is only partly true. if the person grows and increases their body weight up to 270 lb then they would require a dosage which is increased by the same percentage in which their body weight has increased (according to you). this however is not the case or else you would see 270 lb pro's getting good results from taking only 600mg of test/week. as you probably know many pro's (and amateurs) are taking total steroid doses above 10,000 mg/week. if receptor downgrade and tolerance is a myth then why arent people on these massive doses gaining crazy amounts of size? its because their body's are conditioned to use those large amounts and will not see any substantial gains when using a recreational amount of steroids. this is after years of use of course.

i'll wrap this up quick (way too much stuff for me to go through hehe).......

if receptor downgrade and tolerance was a myth you would never see anyone need the kind of dosage and drug variety which is so wide spread in bodybuliding today.

btw, i think that anyone who are forced to use these giant doses of steroids because of their drug history are out of control and are no longer involved in the healthy aspects of the sport.

well you got some basic points donw, but i dont know who you have talked to in the pro circuit, but ill tell you i dont know any1 top level contender that runs 10g of gear per week, the average seems to be in the range of 2-4g/week, and those are the 300lb+ boyz
 
as the muscle cells grow larger they are not gaining more androgen receptors.


Sure they are. This has been discussed so many times in this forum. Muscles grow by fusing with satellite cells. These muscle cell precursors donate their nuclei to the growing muscle fiber. The additional nuclei then proceed to transcribe RNA that is translated into proteins: structural proteins as well as androgen receptor proteins, and all the other proteins the cell needs. More nucei = greater transcription = more androgen receptor protein = more androgen receptors. This is how muscle growth works.

Moreover, when anabolic steroids are thrown in, there is an actual increase in androgen receptor number due to the steroids. This has been shown in numerous studies. You don't need a ton of steroids, either. One often cited study showed 15mg/day of oxandrolone induced significant muscle protein synthesis:

"We conclude that short term OX administration stimulated an increase in skeletal muscle protein synthesis and improved intracellular reutilization of amino acids. The mechanism for this stimulation may be related to an OX-induced increase in AR expression in skeletal muscle." (1)

So the authors believed the observed increase in androgen receptor number contributed to this. Upregulation is real.

(1) 1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11
Short-term oxandrolone administration stimulates net muscle protein synthesis in young men.
Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR, Ferrando AA.
 
Hustler_dt said:
japanese......

i dont think you fully understand what you are talking about. as the muscle cells grow larger they are not gaining more androgen receptors. while a larger person may need to take a LITTLE bit of a higher dosage than a smaller person may need to, it surely isnt accounting for the large spectrum of dosages which we are seeing today.

if a 180 lb person who was on their first cycle would see good results with a low dose of testosterone, lets say 400mg/week. now as this person's body weight and muscle size grows you are saying that they need a higher dosage to keep achieveing gains. this is only partly true. if the person grows and increases their body weight up to 270 lb then they would require a dosage which is increased by the same percentage in which their body weight has increased (according to you). this however is not the case or else you would see 270 lb pro's getting good results from taking only 600mg of test/week. as you probably know many pro's (and amateurs) are taking total steroid doses above 10,000 mg/week. if receptor downgrade and tolerance is a myth then why arent people on these massive doses gaining crazy amounts of size? its because their body's are conditioned to use those large amounts and will not see any substantial gains when using a recreational amount of steroids. this is after years of use of course.

i'll wrap this up quick (way too much stuff for me to go through hehe).......

if receptor downgrade and tolerance was a myth you would never see anyone need the kind of dosage and drug variety which is so wide spread in bodybuliding today.

btw, i think that anyone who are forced to use these giant doses of steroids because of their drug history are out of control and are no longer involved in the healthy aspects of the sport.

nice post.

One thing though, i always thought that the amount of muscle one can achieve was predetermined in your myostatan gene in your DNA.

Also wouldnt you think a 270lbs "pro" BB would need atleast that much extra test to maintain their current mass? and addition to that to promote more growth?
I always thought that the closer one is to their "genetic potential" The more gear they need to take to break that barrier.

another interesting fact is that when pro "come off" they still take a maintainence dose to keep their muscles from breaking down, due to genetics.

can you shed some light on this?
 
nandi12 said:


Sure they are. This has been discussed so many times in this forum. Muscles grow by fusing with satellite cells. These muscle cell precursors donate their nuclei to the growing muscle fiber. The additional nuclei then proceed to transcribe RNA that is translated into proteins: structural proteins as well as androgen receptor proteins, and all the other proteins the cell needs. More nucei = greater transcription = more androgen receptor protein = more androgen receptors. This is how muscle growth works.


another great post; thanks for the education.

I read an articl like this a while back, except it pertained to Muscle Memory......

lets say a person that weighs 200lbs stop training. They lose lbm. however, although this persons muscle atrophied the nuclei remains inbedded in the fibre itself. Is this how muscle memory works?
 
serge....

while i do not condone this type of steroid usage I have seen MANY cycles where professional level bodybuilders are using 1 gram of test per day on top of many other various steroids, GH, IGF-1, etc.

while 10 grams of juice per week seems, and IS, crazy, there are many people who are willing to cycle that kind of dosage.
 
Detraining is a complex process. Some of the effects are touched on in the abstract below. Crossectional muscle area decreases during detraining according to some studies, but not in other studies. I think most bodybuilders would agree that anecdotal observations favor a decrease in area. Other studies have shown that during detraining in strength athletes (heavy resistance trained athletes) type IIa decrease in number relative to type IIb. This mirrors the normal adaption during resistance training where type IIa fibers increase relative to IIb.

If crossectional area stayed the same, the number of myonuclei would too. In the studies where area decreased, there should be a decrease in myonuclei as well. So it is really not clear if nuclear number is part of "muscle memory" or neuromuscular facilitation, as the sports physiologists call it. It is probably more neural than muscular.


Med Sci Sports Exerc 2001 Aug;33(8):1297-303

Muscular characteristics of detraining in humans.

Mujika I, Padilla S.

Departamento de Investigacion y Desarrollo, Servicios Medicos, Athletic Club de Bilbao, Basque Country, Spain. [email protected]

Skeletal muscle is characterized by its ability to dynamically adapt to variable levels of functional demands. During periods of insufficient training stimulus, muscular detraining occurs. This may be characterized by a decreased capillary density, which could take place within 2--3 wk of inactivity. Arterial-venous oxygen difference declines if training stoppage continues beyond 3--8 wk. Rapid and progressive reductions in oxidative enzyme activities bring about a reduced mitochondrial ATP production. The above changes are related to the reduction in VO(2max) observed during long-term training cessation. These muscular characteristics remain above sedentary values in the detrained athlete but usually return to baseline values in recently trained individuals. Glycolytic enzyme activities show nonsystematic changes during periods of training cessation. Fiber distribution remains unchanged during the initial weeks of inactivity, but oxidative fibers may decrease in endurance athletes and increase in strength-trained athletes within 8 wk of training stoppage. Muscle fiber cross-sectional area declines rapidly in strength and sprint athletes, and in recently endurance-trained subjects, whereas it may increase slightly in endurance athletes. Force production declines slowly and in relation to decreased EMG activity. Strength performance in general is readily maintained for up to 4 wk of inactivity, but highly trained athletes' eccentric force and sport-specific power, and recently acquired isokinetic strength, may decline significantly.
 
Hustler_dt said:
serge....

while i do not condone this type of steroid usage I have seen MANY cycles where professional level bodybuilders are using 1 gram of test per day on top of many other various steroids, GH, IGF-1, etc.

while 10 grams of juice per week seems, and IS, crazy, there are many people who are willing to cycle that kind of dosage.

ok you are refering to Paul Borrosens method of breaking through plateus, that use is only utilized for 21days tops as after that the growth comes to a hault, then its followed by a maintanance dose ussually consisting of a gram or two of gear per week to "solidify" newly found muscle, those bursts are ussually done no more then a couple of times per year and not ran none stop, and are definetly not a norm by any means
 
Re: Re: Is More Always Better?

serge said:


to develop an body most will find attractive (women especially) then no, you wont need more then 1.5g/week of gear total, if you are looking to go FREAK then its time to power-up on some heavy shit

personally i have been on both sides of the fence, and ill tell you once you start pushing 260lb+ you become very very misarable, slugish, run out of breath, walking becomes a fucking burden; when you are that big every1 assumes you use tons of gear and women tend to be somewhat cautious around you

now adays i stay at very lean, comfortable bodyweight, use moderate amounts of gear to make progress/maintain my body

I disagree womens opinion vary , some women love the 250+ boys others hate it it really varies. some women (especially one from divorced homes ) feel safe and secure next to a 250 pound gorilla one thingi do know my friend was 260 at 5'7 and one thing i do when ever he walked into a room the entire room stops and stares at him
 
cal said:
Serge,
What did you mean about being 260 + and women being cautious around you?

example:

when im nice and solid, fat/bloat free, cut, i go to the club and i see girls heads turning, every time one comes up she gives a compliment and trys to stryke a conversation, at the end things ussually get interesting

when im bulked up, you know a bit bloated and alog bigger all hear is "wow you are huge" then they turn around and walk away, bottom line is women see a big muscular guy and automaticly assume he juices and that he cant control himself
 
Re: Re: Re: Is More Always Better?

MIKERAZ said:


some women (especially one from divorced homes ) feel safe and secure next to a 250 pound gorilla one thingi do know my friend was 260 at 5'7 and one thing i do when ever he walked into a room the entire room stops and stares at him

im not talking about women from divorced homes, im talking about "trophies", or women you will be braging about to your grand childered when you are 60+ years old and cant get any more ass

PS, when they look at your 5'7 260lb boy, you can bet your ass they ARE NOT fanacising about fucking his brains out
 
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