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Is it torture?
- Thread starter tha joker
- Start date
i have an opinion about a plane full of civilians being flown into the world trade center..
and i have an opinion about people strapping explosives and sitting in a bus killing people..
and i have an opinion on criminals that steal and rape people..
meaning.. the ends justify means
and i have an opinion about people strapping explosives and sitting in a bus killing people..
and i have an opinion on criminals that steal and rape people..
meaning.. the ends justify means
resqguy
New member
Agreed. It is most certainly NOT torture. But your average CNN watching, fat-bellied American seems to think that we can solve everything with peaceful discussion.
Razorguns
Well-known member
Not even the same. He knows he's going to go home at the end of the day.
If the people doing it, are not on your side - and have no rules to follow and hate you - and thus capable of this and much worse -- then yes it's torture.
It's like being kidnapped by al qaeda and put in a room. You haven't even been touched yet, and yet you are going through hell in your mind at what is comimg up.
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If the people doing it, are not on your side - and have no rules to follow and hate you - and thus capable of this and much worse -- then yes it's torture.
It's like being kidnapped by al qaeda and put in a room. You haven't even been touched yet, and yet you are going through hell in your mind at what is comimg up.
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lartinos
Guest
dessperate times call for despersate measures. I could give a shit if they held a gun to their head and blew them away if they didn't talk. Inncocent people die during war all the time. Liberal doosh's are the ones who propagate this crap.
Razorguns
Well-known member
Problem is. If we torture people - we shouldn't complain when others do it to our hostages and us soldiers. Ask ww2 vets what they think of japs.
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lartinos
Guest
Fuck them too, big difference between starving people and torturing them for an hour and leaving them with no physical problems ever. This is the most humane torture you could do.
Razorguns
Well-known member
From what i've read, what we've done at abu gharib and cia in other couhntries is a lot worse than starving. Remember, to many people, we are terrorists to them
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lartinos
Guest
From what i've read, what we've done at abu gharib and cia in other couhntries is a lot worse than starving. Remember, to many people, we are terrorists to them
r
Overall, we are the nice guys who set these fuckers up in hotels basically because otherwise people in our country would flip out. Just because we do a little torturing doesn't mean shit to me. Let's here what these guys are being tortured for and then make an informed decision.
Of course it is. Whether you think the ends justify the means is another matter. but lets not try to say it's "ok" because it's "not torture." By our own definition, torture is any method of gaining information that inflicts pain and suffering - be it MENTAL or physical, on said person. Waterboarding simulates drowning. The body reacts as if it's drowning. That's severe mental distress.
I'm not going to sit here and say I disagree with it's use, but to deny that it is a form of torture is merely sugar coating facts.
Are there things that are worse? yes of course. Are there things that cause more long term damage? yes, of course. But let's just be realistic and own up to the fact that mental torture is still torture, let's accept the fact that we live in a world that requires less than savory actions to protect ourselves, and let's stop trying to slap a coat of frosting on a tin of anchovies. it's still anchovies. Necessary anchovies, and not quite as gross as other things out there, but anchovies nonetheless.
I'm not going to sit here and say I disagree with it's use, but to deny that it is a form of torture is merely sugar coating facts.
Are there things that are worse? yes of course. Are there things that cause more long term damage? yes, of course. But let's just be realistic and own up to the fact that mental torture is still torture, let's accept the fact that we live in a world that requires less than savory actions to protect ourselves, and let's stop trying to slap a coat of frosting on a tin of anchovies. it's still anchovies. Necessary anchovies, and not quite as gross as other things out there, but anchovies nonetheless.
Razorguns
Well-known member
That's how many iraqis feel about al aqaeda killing americans. Only the nouns change.
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resqguy
New member
That's the problem. What's reported and what's factual are two different things.
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lartinos
Guest
So if we humanley tortured somebody and it meant it saved the entire eastern sea board (fuck the west) from getting nuked would it be worth it? But wait... fat pussy actors or whoever that dood in the video was couldn't handle it for 2 seconds.
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UA_Iron
Guest
I avoid these threads.
The argument process in itself is ultimately flawed. No one is going to walk away from this thread with a different view on torture.
And I dont care.
The argument process in itself is ultimately flawed. No one is going to walk away from this thread with a different view on torture.
And I dont care.
Razorguns
Well-known member
When we torture someone, news of this spreads all over the foreign press that we torture their citizens. (Iraqis and Afghans know all about abu gharib)
Then people hate the us. Then it becomes 100x easier for osama and company to recruit peopel to exact payback. (it's not easy for them to recruit people to attack switzerland).
Then they start crashing planes into our buildings.
*cause* and *effect*. There's no free lunch in life.
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resqguy
New member
They started "crashing planes into our buildings" before the Abu Ghraib "torture" took place. 9/11 made it 110x easier for your average American soldier to "exact payback" when given the chance. And for the record, getting beheaded is a little worse than having to pose for photos, naked. Just sayin'...
I'd like to waterboard some of you.
stosstruppe
Well-known member
I am all for enhanced interrogation!!11
that term would work nicely since the obama administration already changed the term War on Terror to Overseas Contingency Operation.
Morality aside, what about practicality? What has torturing prisoners done for the United States? Does the United States have Osama? Years of torturing prisoners with no positive results constitutes a policy failure in my opinion.
catching and sending murderers to prison doesnt stop future murders but we seem to think its still a good idea. Besides, the general public would not be privy to every single instance where torturing prevented something. However you would be sure to notice when not torturing allowed something to happen, as those type of results are readily observable in the forms of terrorism.
resqguy
New member
"Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to." - Colonel Nathan R. Jessup
Kind of fitting, I thought.
Kind of fitting, I thought.
pin
Banned
Except for that whole Iraq thing that we've pretty much won.
Having a rough day with your hubby again?
myway
Banned
Nothing new or special. I was jus sayin, ya know? I just figured
MANY people on here would be able to relate to such an idea..
javaguru
Banned
Hitchens considers it torture and he's an Iraq warhawk. He claims to have lasting psychological damage from the waterboarding...he wakes up in the middle of the night on occasion with the feeling of drowning. I want to see O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter volunteer to go through "enhanced interrogation" and claim it isn't "torture."
If this is true you cannot form an argument that is pro torture at least in regard to it being effective in gathering useful information. Not all information gathered by US intelligence is torture, so how do you differentiate between information gathered by torture and information gathered by other means? The public would however know if Osama Bin Laden was caught. He has not been caught despite using torture as a method of collecting information regarding his whereabouts, hence torture in this respect has been a failure. I think you are on to something when you mention the ineffectiveness of capital punishment as a crime deterrent. Torture, like capital punishment, can appeal to somebody's sense of vengeance even when it is not effective for gathering information.
I think torture can result in the gathering of useful information. The problem becomes how do you tell if the information is useful or not, truthful or not? I have no experience with this kind of thing. I'm curious how information tortured out of prisoners is followed up on and how it is determined what information is truthful and what information is not.
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lartinos
Guest
Any information is better than nothing. Torture is just like wearing a condom, we don't like doing it but it is necessary sometimes. Also they both don't always work, but I'd rather not take my chances otherwise. Also arabs are like herpes because they... You guys and finish that joke for me.
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Any information is better than nothing. Torture is just like wearing a condom, we don't like doing it but it is necessary sometimes. Also they both don't always work, but I'd rather not take my chances otherwise. Also arabs are like herpes because they... You guys and finish that joke for me.
I would have to disagree with you on this point. Truthful information is better than false information. No information is better than false information also. If you plan and act according to false information you are wasting time and resources that could be better directed at pursuing a course based on truthful information. I'm not sure how anyone can make an effective decision based on false information.
I also don't buy that some people don't like to see POWs tortured. In the photos of Abu Grhaib, the captors generally seemed to be making quite a festival of it.
Don't take what I say as an indictment against the United States specifically. I'm certain "the enemy" is no different when it comes to this issue.
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lartinos
Guest
I would have to disagree with you on this point. Truthful information is better than false information. No information is better than false information also. If you plan and act according to false information you are wasting time and resources that could be better directed at pursuing a course based on truthful information. I'm not sure how anyone can make an effective decision based on false information.
I also don't buy that some people don't like to see POWs tortured. In the photos of Abu Grhaib, the captors generally seemed to be making quite a festival of it.
Don't take what I say as an indictment against the United States specifically. I'm certain "the enemy" is no different when it comes to this issue.
Everyone needs to STOP lumping abu ghraib with water boarding jesus! That was just troops who for some reason acted in a horrible way and was much different. They also got in trouble for it. Listen jacob... they do the waterboarding because it does give information. They can decipher what the prisoners tell them and make the decision whether it is of use or not. That is why some information is better than no information. They can research things that people say like a detective does. The same reason the police interrogate, just in ways that are more successful at making people talk. You don't have to agree with me, I've said my part here.
Why should people stop lumping waterboarding and Abu Grhaib together? It is the same principle. Prisoners in any setting are generally abused by their captors. It happens to the incarcerated, POWs, slaves, concentration camp inmates, school children, fraternity pledges, new recruits, etc. It doesn't matter who is in charge, what culture they come from, or what the backdrop is. Is seems more like it is built into the nature of hierarchical human interactions. People who can damage others with impunity do so with escalating intensity and often make entertainment of it. If they can do it anonymously the effect seems enhanced. I still am left wondering what this information gotten by waterboarding is. I'm actually still wondering who the interrogators perform waterboarding on. I feel it is a frightening situation when you have people offended by someone who asks for justification for the use of torture instead of giving blind obedience to the torturers. My opinion is that the torturers should justify their actions instead of someone justifying the asking of whether or not torture is ethical or practical. As citizens of the United States, we will be held responsible for the actions of our government whether we give them the silent "OK" or not. I think I have every right to ask since I will be ultimately held in part responsible for what these torturers do.
I can't watch videos through the frame of EF, but this question, the torture question, came up before and the short answer, and top military intelligence people concur, is that torture is useless. It's just an excuse to exact revenge. A person suffering enough will say anything eventually.
1,000s of men and women who confessed to witchcraft, while fully believing that as they said the words they were condemning their immortal souls to eternal damnation, back that one up.
1,000s of men and women who confessed to witchcraft, while fully believing that as they said the words they were condemning their immortal souls to eternal damnation, back that one up.
myway
Banned
Is it true that they thought all left handed people were witches? I have heard that a million times but never looked it up to see if it was actually true or just an old wives tale.
Not that I expect you to look it up for me, just wondering if you knew off tha top of your head.
Razorguns
Well-known member
I hope u dodos know, that pictures of abu gharib are used by al qaeda, taliban, mehdi army, baath party, hamas, somali pirates, etc. etc. to recruit young boys to take up arms against the us. Leading to the deaths of us soldiers and citizens. It's also used by foreign press and leaders to make citizens hate us. And we all know foreigners own america nowadays.
** So all I can say is...WELL DONE US GOVERNMENT. Give people who hate us more ammunition to recruit people to kill us. Great! **
How many of you would think positive about Pakistan, if you saw 10 american blonde blue-eyed young men stacked up naked with pakistani soldiers laughing behind them? How many would immediately rush to the recruiting office to kick some pakistani butt?
Some of you peeps need to start thinking out of the box once in awhile. Say no to public schools and cnn.
r
** So all I can say is...WELL DONE US GOVERNMENT. Give people who hate us more ammunition to recruit people to kill us. Great! **
How many of you would think positive about Pakistan, if you saw 10 american blonde blue-eyed young men stacked up naked with pakistani soldiers laughing behind them? How many would immediately rush to the recruiting office to kick some pakistani butt?
Some of you peeps need to start thinking out of the box once in awhile. Say no to public schools and cnn.
r
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Actually, the English word sinister comes from the Latin word sinestra, which originally meant "left" but took on meanings of "evil" or "unlucky." They didn't think a left-handed person was a witch, per say, but it would certainly be one more nail in the coffin (literally). Also, brownies, moles, all manner of birth marks or birth defects, could be considered marks of "the devil." The justification was that any manner of blemish upon the skin made a person less pure or godly. If a person was accused of witchcraft the standard operating procedure was to drag them in, strip them totally naked and examine every inch of their body in extreme detail. Any blemish or mole or anything like that, anywhere (including the scalp and pubic region, they'd frequently shave both men and women) was further tested with a pin. If the blemish was numb to pain then it was further evidence to suspect the person of being in league with the devil and a reason to pursue additional questioning (read, torture; sometimes a brownie was enough to get you a quick trial and execution if the people had reason to want you dead). Of course, the witch hunters of those days had special witch finding pins with retractable points that allowed them to "stick" a needle what appeared to be an inch into someone's skin and they wouldn't feel a thingIs it true that they thought all left handed people were witches? I have heard that a million times but never looked it up to see if it was actually true or just an old wives tale.
Not that I expect you to look it up for me, just wondering if you knew off tha top of your head.
Then there was the popular "swimming a witch." They tightly bound the suspect, hands and feet (basically hogtied them), and chucked them into a body of water. If they floated, they were a witch and promptly executed, if they sunk, they were pure. However, it usually took at least five minutes to decide if the suspect was just lurking on the bottom or really godly, so swimming a witch was pretty much a lose/lose situation for the accused.
Unfortunately, torture and execution through history are my more warped fascinations. Man's inhumanity to man seems virtually limitless. On a scale of barbarism, waterboarding is tame shit, but still, it ain't too far removed from it's ancestor, the ducking stool, and it's just as immature.
Torturing your enemy only gives your enemy and his friends and family another reason to hate you.
myway
Banned
Actually, the English word sinister comes from the Latin word sinestra, which originally meant "left" but took on meanings of "evil" or "unlucky." They didn't think a left-handed person was a witch, per say, but it would certainly be one more nail in the coffin (literally). Also, brownies, moles, all manner of birth marks or birth defects, could be considered marks of "the devil." The justification was that any manner of blemish upon the skin made a person less pure or godly. If a person was accused of witchcraft the standard operating procedure was to drag them in, strip them totally naked and examine every inch of their body in extreme detail. Any blemish or mole or anything like that, anywhere (including the scalp and pubic region, they'd frequently shave both men and women) was further tested with a pin. If the blemish was numb to pain then it was further evidence to suspect the person of being in league with the devil and a reason to pursue additional questioning (read, torture; sometimes a brownie was enough to get you a quick trial and execution if the people had reason to want you dead). Of course, the witch hunters of those days had special witch finding pins with retractable points that allowed them to "stick" a needle what appeared to be an inch into someone's skin and they wouldn't feel a thing
Then there was the popular "swimming a witch." They tightly bound the suspect, hands and feet (basically hogtied them), and chucked them into a body of water. If they floated, they were a witch and promptly executed, if they sunk, they were pure. However, it usually took at least five minutes to decide if the suspect was just lurking on the bottom or really godly, so swimming a witch was pretty much a lose/lose situation for the accused.
Unfortunately, torture and execution through history are my more warped fascinations. Man's inhumanity to man seems virtually limitless. On a scale of barbarism, waterboarding is tame shit, but still, it ain't too far removed from it's ancestor, the ducking stool, and it's just as immature.
Torturing your enemy only gives your enemy and his friends and family another reason to hate you.
Thanx,mm. I feel more educated having read ur post.
I'm pretty sure I would have been bound and tossed into a river ... I'm blemished and left handed. Plus, my quirks tend to make people question my place on earth or anywhere else..
javaguru
Banned
FDR managed things much better back in the day. There is no way Abu Gharib would have been made public under his watch. His propaganda machine was immaculate.
