Is it possible to still get quite lean with a high TSH level?

[Mr. Black]

My TSH levels is 3.98 mU/L which is definitely a little high (normal range is 0.2-4.0) . My question is, seeing as my thyroid output is not optimal, how tough will it be to burn fat (as opposed to those whih a lower TSH)?

 

[ohashi]

TSH by itself means jack shit in this scenario. What you need are your T3/T4 levels. For all you know, your TSH is high and your T3 levels are proportional.

 

[poantrex]

TSH by itself means jack shit in this scenario. What you need are your T3/T4 levels. For all you know, your TSH is high and your T3 levels are proportional.

Huh? TSH means a lot, since a high TSH means that less T4 is being produced - which in turn means that less free t3 exists. Having that high of a TSH would be of geat concern to me, personally....I would look into finding a doctor that could prescribe synthroid if the TSH doesn't improve.

The scenario you are describing, simply doesn't happen. The closer the TSH is to 1-2 , the better.

 

[ohashi]

Huh? TSH means a lot, since a high TSH means that less T4 is being produced

Or it can be that a feedback loop is not functioning properly and both TSH and T4 are high. That's why you need to know your T4 and T3 levels, not just the TSH. It's like getting your total cholesterol number without knowing the HDL/LDL breakdown, or finding out your testosterone without knowing how much is free.

 

[poantrex]

Or it can be that a feedback loop is not functioning properly and both TSH and T4 are high. That's why you need to know your T4 and T3 levels, not just the TSH. It's like getting your total cholesterol number without knowing the HDL/LDL breakdown, or finding out your testosterone without knowing how much is free.

Free T4 (and sometimes free T3) should be tested in addition to TSH. But saying that TSH isn't important is ridiculous - its like saying that someone can have low LH yet have high testosterone. (without supplementation, of course). That does NOT happen. TSH is what drives T3 and T4 production, so having optimal free T3/T4 while having borderline hypothyroid levels of TSH - that just doesn't..happen...

If I had such a high TSH I would seek treatment with synthroid or synthroid and a small (and I do mean small) amount of cytomel to lower it to the optimal range under the supervision of a doctor. In my opinnion, the thyroid simply should not be monkeyd with without professional help.

 

[Mr. Black]

I was acutally waiting for you Poantrex You responded to my first thread 6 weeks ago when my TSH was 6.25. I have been on a shitload of thyroid supps since then(natural ones for now) and it might appear they are working. At any rate my current TSH is still not that great. I will be getting it tested again in another 6 weeks.

In regard to my inital question, how will my current TSH level affect my "cutting" goals? I am currently 10%BF looking to drop a few more points. ...

Oh and my free T4 was decent, 16.1 pmol/L (range is 9-23) and Total T3 was 2.5 nmol/l (range is .9-2.8), doc will not test for Free T3 as he says its useless...)

 

[poantrex]

Or it can be that a feedback loop is not functioning properly and both TSH and T4 are high. That's why you need to know your T4 and T3 levels, not just the TSH. It's like getting your total cholesterol number without knowing the HDL/LDL breakdown, or finding out your testosterone without knowing how much is free.

By the way, Higher T4 means a lower TSH. I'm aware of some conditions in which some people don't properly convert T4 to T3 (which is very rare, by the way) but that is marked by low TSH, high T4, and low T3.


But anyway....how this will effect your goals is hard to say. It would
probably take a few weeks and months for the effects to manifest themselves. However, I do agree with him that you should get a few more tests added to the TSH test. That might point you to the best treatment option, which will likely be levothyroxine....unless the problem fixes itself (never seen this happen.)

Have you used cytomel recently?

 

[poantrex]

.

 

[poantrex]

Oh and my free T4 was decent, 16.1 pmol/L (range is 9-23) and Total T3 was 2.5 nmol/l (range is .9-2.8), doc will not test for Free T3 as he says its useless...)

You know, that seems to be the prevailing view among many doctors. The problem is that when using exogenous T3, the body will develop antibodies to it and increase THBG (thyroid hormone binding globulin) which usually doesn't resolve after stopping treatment. So to find out, you should either get free t3 or reverse t3 uptake tested.

To answer your original question: Yes, you can maintain reasonable shape with the TSH that you have. I had a similar TSH after using cytomel (small dosages, by the way) and was able to stay very lean since I worked out regularly - yet I had symptoms of being mildly hypo, such as occassional constipation and brain fog. When I treated it with levothyroxine, all symptoms went away and my TSH stays between 1 and 2 (where it should be.)

 

[Mr. Black]

You know, that seems to be the prevailing view among many doctors. The problem is that when using exogenous T3, the body will develop antibodies to it and increase THBG (thyroid hormone binding globulin) which usually doesn't resolve after stopping treatment. So to find out, you should either get free t3 or reverse t3 uptake tested.

The only "T3" test that canadian labs do (as far as I know) comprises of 1)total T3, 2)T3 Uptake and 3) Free T3 index (I have all of these values). i insisted just today that I want my Free T3 checked, but the Doc made up some excuse saying that it was not important, stating TSH was all that mattered and pretty much cut me off. Either he knows nothing of existing Free T3 testing or Canada simply does not test it. I might push to see an endo at this time....

 

[ohashi]

I did not say "TSH isn't important" - I said that TSH by itself does not reveal the whole story. In fact, by itself, it doesn't even talk one tenth of the story. It's not a thryroid hormone, but a pituitary one - you're aware of that, right? Which means that a host of other, non thyroid-related factos can influence the TSH output (such is pituitary or hypothalamus malfunctioning, amongst many, many others) and not represent an actual thryoid problem.

What I said stands - T3 and T4 levels need to be checked in order to determine whether there is a problem or not. Without it, all your doing is making an assumption and giving blind advice.

 

[poantrex]

I did not say "TSH isn't important" - I said that TSH by itself does not reveal the whole story. In fact, by itself, it doesn't even talk one tenth of the story. It's not a thryroid hormone, but a pituitary one - you're aware of that, right? Which means that a host of other, non thyroid-related factos can influence the TSH output (such is pituitary or hypothalamus malfunctioning, amongst many, many others) and not represent an actual thryoid problem.

What I said stands - T3 and T4 levels need to be checked in order to determine whether there is a problem or not. Without it, all your doing is making an assumption and giving blind advice.

Gotcha - I read through your post way too quickly. I agree with you totally in that T3 and T4 should be tested in addition to TSH....but a high TSH always points to a problem, somewhere. Like the relationship between Luetenizing hormone and testosterone (as mentioned above), there is a relationship between TSH and T3/T4...having a high TSH should be investigated because it is NOT normal.

 

[ohashi]

Mr. Black, I don't know how the Canadian health system works - is there any way you can try another doctor, one who might be more knowledgable in thyroid function and problems, without paying for it?

 

[Mr. Black]

Thanks for both of your replys's guys, but we kind of deviated from my initial question...

How hard will it be for me to cut with my current TSH? Or am I wasting my time until it drops?

 

[Mr. Black]

Mr. Black, I don't know how the Canadian health system works - is there any way you can try another doctor, one who might be more knowledgable in thyroid function and problems, without paying for it?

I am going to visit another Doc for now (just a GP) who has an "interest" in hormone therapy. Hopefully I might get some more input and/or long-term solution.

 

[ohashi]

Thanks for both of your replys's guys, but we kind of deviated from my initial question...

How hard will it be for me to cut with my current TSH? Or am I wasting my time until it drops?

Like I said, TSH by itself is not enough of an indicator to predict the success of the cut, although if I had to guess, I would say that it would hard for you, and suggest you start munching on Cytomel.

You said you have your total T3 and T3 uptake values. Can you post them?

 

[poantrex]

I think you will be fine for the time being. I was a similar situation to yours after using cytomel, and did not have any problems maintaining a lean physique because of my active lifestyle.

But after what I experienced I would not recommend anyone using thyroid hormone to aid weight loss...its just not worth screwing your thyroid up.

 

[poantrex]

Like I said, TSH by itself is not enough of an indicator to predict the success of the cut, although if I had to guess, I would say that it would hard for you, and suggest you start munching on Cytomel.

You said you have your total T3 and T3 uptake values. Can you post them?

I'd advise against using cytomel. Its a much better weight loss agent than T4, but it has one major problem - Free T3 values vary _signifigantly_ while using it. Most users will feel signs of hyperthyroidism the first four to six hours after taking it, and then it attenuates....rapidly.

T4 will allow most people to have T3 levels in the normal to upper end or proper lab ranges, yet maintains a stable, consistent level of t3 in the blood. Most doctors would rather use T4 for treatment because of stable blood levels, while cytomel brings ups and downs all day long.

Of course, a doc should look at his specific situation to assess his best treatment.

 

[ohashi]

I wasn't serious about munching in Cyt, by the way. A good doc will help you determine whether you need synthetic aid for your thyroid, and will monitor you for any complications and dose adjustments. Playing with synthetic hormones is not a good idea, but hey, I could say the same thing about testosterone.

 

[Mr. Black]

You said you have your total T3 and T3 uptake values. Can you post them?

Total T3: 2.5 nmol/l (range is 0.9-2.8)
T3 Uptake: 0.36nmol/l (range is 0.22-0.37)
Free T3 Index: 3.0 nmol/l (range is 0.9-2.8)

It seems a little strange that Free T3 index is high but then again its all chineese to me

 

[ohashi]

You'll be just fine. Your T3 levels are not that bad at all.

 

[Mr. Black]

You'll be just fine. Your T3 levels are not that bad at all.

Then what would be affecting the high TSH reading? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Free T3 Index different than actual Free T3?

 

[Mr. Black]

Have you used cytomel recently?

Nope, never used it. After I found out that my TSH was 6.25, 6 weeks ago, I did some checking with a former doctor of mine, and apparently back in 2001 my TSH was 4.1. The funny thing was around that time I was the leanest I have ever been (7%BF without any effort to maintain). Since then I have accumulated a little extra pudge which I attributed from a few cycles.

 

[poantrex]

You'll be just fine. Your T3 levels are not that bad at all.

His TSH is too high. It is NOT normal, for someone his age, or someone with his activity level - to have a TSH level THAT HIGH. Period. You're saying that he's okay based on his serum T3 levels -- you can't make a judgement based on serum T3 ALONE. If his thyroid output were optimal, he would not have a high TSH.


Mr. Black: are you on cycle, or have you been on cycle recently? Androgens usually do weird things to the thyroid. What compounds are you on now?

Either way, you should consult a doctor about your TSH level. It is too high. There are 3 NIH studies out now, that I am aware of - that indicate that anyone with a TSH of 3.5 or greater are at a signifigant risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism later in life. You are past 3.5 now, you should get it treated. You can't just look at your total t3 levels and think that you're fine, because a high TSH always indicates a problem somewhere.

 

[poantrex]

Then what would be affecting the high TSH reading? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Free T3 Index different than actual Free T3?

Yes, it is different. Some of the cycles you've done in the past are probably affecting your numbers, and you may be dealing with thyroid antibiodics are higher THBG. You should get FT3 and T7 tested, if you can find a willing doc.

 

[poantrex]

Nope, never used it. After I found out that my TSH was 6.25, 6 weeks ago, I did some checking with a former doctor of mine, and apparently back in 2001 my TSH was 4.1. The funny thing was around that time I was the leanest I have ever been (7%BF without any effort to maintain). Since then I have accumulated a little extra pudge which I attributed from a few cycles.

Thats really weird, TSH usually stays the same unless you have drug interactions that change it. Are you taking any androgens or prescription drug medications? And are you fasting (no food or stimulants) for 12 hours before getting these tests done?

 

[Mr. Black]

Thats really weird, TSH usually stays the same unless you have drug interactions that change it. Are you taking any androgens or prescription drug medications? And are you fasting (no food or stimulants) for 12 hours before getting these tests done?

My last cycle was 6 months ago. My TSH test from 2001 was way before I had ever touched any AAS. Not on any prescription drugs. I have used accutane a few times in the past as well as anti-biotics for extended periods of time (had bad acne as a teen). I DID fast for the TSH test that yielded 6.25 (had to for cholesterol) but did not for the test that yielded 3.98 (was not stipulated). No stimulants either (other than liporexin/thermorexin/ZIP/)...

 

[Mr. Black]

Mr. Black: What compounds are you on now?

QUOTE]

My anti-TSH crusade involves:

- some dostinex (0.5mg e3d-found out there might be evidence that higher prolactin levels can affect thyroid levels, prolactin was 16 (range is <21)
-Protein Factory's ZIP
-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine-2 grams/day + 1200g's from the ZIP
-Liporexin 6 caps/day
-T-REX 4 caps/day
-Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome: ThyroCare 3 caps/day (contains guggul gum resin, blue flag root, bladderwrack leaves, selenium)

 

[Mr. Black]

Thats really weird, TSH usually stays the same unless you have drug interactions that change it. QUOTE]

Hmmm, that is strange, doc said that TSH levels do indeed fluctuate (in cycles sometimes) hence the need to check every 6 weeks or so (in order to accurately depict the levels). He could be full of shit though. He was quite adamant that in no way or form there was any possibility that my decrease in TSH had any thing to do with my supps, he suggested it was due to the cyclical nature of TSH instead.

 

[poantrex]

Thats really weird, TSH usually stays the same unless you have drug interactions that change it. QUOTE]

Hmmm, that is strange, doc said that TSH levels do indeed fluctuate (in cycles sometimes) hence the need to check every 6 weeks or so (in order to accurately depict the levels). He could be full of shit though. He was quite adamant that in no way or form there was any possibility that my decrease in TSH had any thing to do with my supps, he suggested it was due to the cyclical nature of TSH instead.

That sounds absurd to me. Small variances are normal, but 3-4 points is not. Mine usually stays the same as long as I don't have any drug interactions messing with it.

Anyway, try dropping all of those supplements you're taking now, and getting retested in a few weeks time. Stimulants will usually raise TSH (due to decreased need for endogenously produced Thyroxine) and increase T3 and T4....so that could explain your test score abnormalities.

This will be the only way to find a true indicator of thyroid status.