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is ALA all its cracked up too be?
- Thread starter OMEGA
- Start date
FitnessFrk
New member
Great supp to use if you can afford to take it in large doses. To get the desired effect you need to take at least 2.5+ grams a day.
N
nclifter6feet6
Guest
yeah it works but certainly not worth the money. money is much better spent on food. its way overpriced for what its worth in my opinion, its no mirical supplement i dont think its all that outstanding you can certainly do without
georgie24 said:
www.anabolical.com features Anabolical Nutrition's
100-500mg caps or
125-400mg caps, both =50 g. Same price
1 bottle + s/h = $32.50 = $.65 per gram
2 bottle + s/h = $61.50 = $.61 per gram
3 bottle + Free Shipping = $82.50 = $. 55 gram
1000-100mg caps=100grams @ $70 = $ .70 per gram
Check it out.
gymtime
New member
OMEGA said:
here here......we need some guru input
I wouldn't hold your breath. Mr. X hasn't posted here in months and I don't expect this to be any exception.
I've been on it for a few weeks and haven't noticed shit, but I think my dosage might be low. Plus I'm not on a keto. I'm on a mod carb diet. But I'm still cutting.
I'll up the dose for a while and see what happens.
BTW, you can get a good deal at: Nutritieam.
It's an expensive supplement to be using while bulking on a high carb diet if your insulin sensitivity is already good. And if your insulin sensitivity is not very good then you really shouldn't be on a high carb bulking diet anyway. It's completely unecessary on non-keto moderate carb low fat cutting diets since these diets tend to increase insulin sensitivity in normal folks. BUT it's a good all round antioxidant and if you have money to blow on supps it's prolly worth taking in the 600-800mg per day range for this purpose alone. Also good for insulin resistant folks and going into or out of ketosis. It's important to keep in mind that even while in ketosis, ALA can only assist in the disposal of as much glucose as your muscles can hold as glycogen (maybe 200-300g) and the rest of the carbs will still go to liver glycogen or fat storage. I would rather eat less carbs, and eat the right kind of carbs at the right time, then spend that amount of money on a supp. But if someone gave it to me gratis, I would take it as an antioxidant.
L
Lumbuss
Guest
Why dont you dumbshits just eat low carbs like the diet says, and you wont need ALA? It can also fuck you up if you use too much.
F
Frackal
Guest
MS said:
According to Fonz it will increase your muscle's glycogen-holding potential by increasing the amount of Glut-4 transporters <sp>....I personally have been off it for a few days and hate the flat nasty feeling my muscles now have...
F
Frackal
Guest
Lumbuss said:
You're one to talk, as the resident board fucking JACKASS.
CrystalChick
New member
Re
I believe Cornholio did an entire Thread on the correct supplementation of ALA on the Womans Board.
CC
I believe Cornholio did an entire Thread on the correct supplementation of ALA on the Womans Board.
CC
As mentioned before, ALA is beneficial for anyone who has reduced insulin sensitivity. Keto diets (especially cyclical ones) are notorious for transiently decreasing insulin sensitivity. So ALA is valuable on keto diets. Please understand that reduced GLUT4 translocation is a HALLMARK of insulin resistance and ALA is very beneficial in this case. But people with good insulin sensitivity already (almost by definition) have high levels of intracellular GLUT4 translocation when glucose is consumed (insulin is high), especially after glycogen depleting exercise. In simple terms, ALA will not make a big difference in skeletal muscle glucose uptake if your slin sensitivity is good. The studies that FONZ/Cornholio site are all done in insulin resistant diabetic models, not normal folks. It's also worth keeping in the back of your heads that ALA also dramatically increases surface expression of GLUT4 in adipocytes, so not all the carbs you eat are automatically gonna go to your muscles when you take ALA! For the cost of high dose supp with ALA, I would personally get a glucose tolerance test done first. If your glucose tolerance is good, then there's no need to spend the money. But if you doing keto, without a doubt ALA is beneficial to help clear blood glucose during carb refeeds.
FitnessFrk
New member
ALA is a good antioxidant for the liver and is effective at nutrient partitioning.
CrimsonKing
New member
It makes my pee smell stinky 
MrMakaveli
New member
I have a question for anyone that can answer.
I've been reading BodyOpus by Duchaine and Lyle's book and both seem to stress the importance of lowering muscle glycogen. So assuming someone took ALA and then carbed up after a 7 day low carb/Refeed cycle (6 diet/1 refeed), wouldnt ALA do more harm then good due to the fact that muscle glycogen would'nt be depleted (although ketosis would be established) ?
Many Thanks to anyone (or everyone) who answers.
I've been reading BodyOpus by Duchaine and Lyle's book and both seem to stress the importance of lowering muscle glycogen. So assuming someone took ALA and then carbed up after a 7 day low carb/Refeed cycle (6 diet/1 refeed), wouldnt ALA do more harm then good due to the fact that muscle glycogen would'nt be depleted (although ketosis would be established) ?
Many Thanks to anyone (or everyone) who answers.
MrMakaveli
New member
Are you guys sure?
In Lyle's book he gives a figure (70mmol/kg) that muscle glycogen should be at for optimal fat burning to take place. Also,duchaine says the effectivness of the carb-up relies upon muscle glycogen being extremely low (25-40 mmol/kg). Assuming someone was using ALA to maintain ketosis while eating carbs during the week the above figure would probably never be reached, limiting the effectivness of the carb-up.
In Lyle's book he gives a figure (70mmol/kg) that muscle glycogen should be at for optimal fat burning to take place. Also,duchaine says the effectivness of the carb-up relies upon muscle glycogen being extremely low (25-40 mmol/kg). Assuming someone was using ALA to maintain ketosis while eating carbs during the week the above figure would probably never be reached, limiting the effectivness of the carb-up.
Yeah Makaveli, it makes no sense to take ALA once ketosis has been established. It is best saved for the carb up AFTER muscle glycogen has been depleted. This way you will get a better glycogen overcompensation, and it will assist with reducing transient insulin resistance that's developed during the high fat part of the diet. Taking it so you can eat carbs and remain in ketosis negates part of the purpose of doing a CKD. Sure your blood sugar will remain low, but you're not depleting your muscles. This approach would be better used with a TKD where you want to keep your muscles full/liver empty so you can maintain training intensity.
However, if you're headed for type 2 diabetes and are partly already insulin resistant, then it makes sense to take ALA whenever you eat carbs since you don't want extended HIGH blood glucose........
However, if you're headed for type 2 diabetes and are partly already insulin resistant, then it makes sense to take ALA whenever you eat carbs since you don't want extended HIGH blood glucose........
plornive
New member
That was informative but it didn't seem to directly answer this question: Does depleted muscle glycogen enhance fat metabolism, or is depleted liver glycogen equivalent to depleted muscle AND liver glycogen as fat as fat metabolism and mobilization is concerned?MS said:
I understand the purpose of supercompensation.
Ketosis requires low blood sugar (exception is type 1 diabetics) which enhances fat metabolism. Muscle glycogen is not mobilized to blood glucose, whereas liver glycogen is. So yes, you can have full muscles and be burning significant fat via ketosis. This is why a good TKD can be so successful. ALA both preferentially shuttles glucose to muscles and fat cells, as well as inhibiting hepatic gluconeogenesis, therefore keeping your blood sugar lower for longer. It's great stuff if your're attempting any kind of cyclical keto/carb diet (CKD or TKD). It's also a great antioxidant. I was just pointing out that it may inhibit muscle glycogen supercompensation if used during the keto phase of a CKD.
Lyle's book is simply outdated. Even he has said so. If Lyle had kept up with current events he would realize that ALA makes a "Super Targeted Ketogenic Diet" (STKD) possible. With ALA, you can eat much more than the TKD's recommended 50grams of carbs per day, have your muscles remain hard, and still reap the fat burning benefits of being in ketosis.MrMakaveli said:
Muscle glycogen plays no part in ketosis whatsoever. I was quite succesful having 200-300 gms carb/day staying in ketosis and most important of all losing nothing but fat.
You do however still need to eat below maintance calories...
rangerx83
Lyle's book is simply outdated. Even he has said so. If Lyle had kept up with current events he would realize that ALA makes a "Super Targeted Ketogenic Diet" (STKD) possible. With ALA, you can eat much more than the TKD's recommended 50grams of carbs per day, have your muscles remain hard, and still reap the fat burning benefits of being in ketosis.MrMakaveli said:
Muscle glycogen plays no part in ketosis whatsoever. I was quite succesful having 200-300 gms carb/day staying in ketosis and most important of all losing nothing but fat.
You do however still need to eat below maintance calories...
rangerx83
plornive
New member
I guess it could be looked at as a keto diet but with some of the fat replace by carbs. Those carbs are shuttled to cells, leaving the blood and liver desperate enough to mobilize fat.rangerx83 said:
The confusing part (that you address above) is whether or not glycogenated muscles metabolize fat at rest. It is GOOD that they have glycogen during a lifting session so that glucose needs are not raised too much which necessitates more catabolism. It also seems likely that muscles burn fat at rest.
plornive said:
What I find interesting is that my ketone output was quite high while dieting, even though I was on a LOW fat diet. Ate primarily carbs and protein. So there's only one place the ketones could have come from and that is from body fat, not dietary fat..
And yes I do think that force-ramming glucose + other nutrients into skeletal muscle primarily while 'starving' fat cells is great for fat loss. ALA does this better than any other fat loss supplement. That is not to say of course that ALA cannot be used in conjuction to other fat loss supplements such as ECA, clen , T3, yohimbine, etc.....
regards,
Rangerx83
Pact, ALA would help with a 'bulking' diet if you were insulin resistant. But remember that ALA also dramatically increases GLUT4 surface expression and glucose uptake into adipose cells. So in a high carb/high calorie environment it will just make it easier for your fat cells to store more fat once your muscles are full. In other words, ALA does not 'starve' fat cells, but by lowering your blood glucose rapidly it helps return insulin resistant folks to a more favourable fat-burning state than without ALA.
As an overview, if you are insulin resistant then your body has chronically elevated insulin and blood glucose which favours storage of fat and inhibits fat burning. If you then take ALA and eat carbs, your body will still store any excess carbs (after muscle is filled) in your fat cells, but your body is then able to turn around an burn those excess calories that were just stored. This is on a hypocaloric diet. On the other hand, if calories are in excess, then there is not as much pressure on your fat cells to burn fat, and ALA will merely help fill them up just like your muscle cells. This is true even if you have good insulin sensitivity......too many calories on a bulking diet will be stored as fat. ALA does not increase the calories you burn..........I think the best comparison for ALA and bulking is insulin. If you use insulin and a high calorie diet to "bulk" without lots of AAS and hGH etc...., you will gain LBM AND fat at a great rate, not just LBM.
As an overview, if you are insulin resistant then your body has chronically elevated insulin and blood glucose which favours storage of fat and inhibits fat burning. If you then take ALA and eat carbs, your body will still store any excess carbs (after muscle is filled) in your fat cells, but your body is then able to turn around an burn those excess calories that were just stored. This is on a hypocaloric diet. On the other hand, if calories are in excess, then there is not as much pressure on your fat cells to burn fat, and ALA will merely help fill them up just like your muscle cells. This is true even if you have good insulin sensitivity......too many calories on a bulking diet will be stored as fat. ALA does not increase the calories you burn..........I think the best comparison for ALA and bulking is insulin. If you use insulin and a high calorie diet to "bulk" without lots of AAS and hGH etc...., you will gain LBM AND fat at a great rate, not just LBM.
PaPaPumPPP
New member
awesome info MS
ttt
ttt
MS, thanks you. would it be fair to assume that you don't believe ala does what many claim when considering excess carbs? i figure that the ala will help shuttle creatine to my muscles. i'm looking to add size but i'm an athlete NOT a bodybuilder so i wouldn't exactly call it "bulking." i'm just looking to add lbm so i'll only add a few more cals.
how does that sound?
thanks
pact
how does that sound?
thanks
pact
ALA is a great supp. If I could afford it I would take lots of it every day! But a lot of people take their results from keto dieting and assume it works just as good in all situations. There's nothing WRONG with taking ALA on a high carb, high calorie diet. If you're insulin resistant or using lots of gear it's a good idea to use it in this sitch. BUT, those carb calories don't magically disappear just because you've taken ALA. Once your muscles are full of glycogen, they are full. Even with over-compensation from carb-depleting/loading/ALA, your muscles cannot realistically take up more than 300g of carbs unless you're Ronnie Coleman......so those extra carbs will get burned or stored depending on your energy balance. ALA will help you store them more quickly!
In your case pact, the benefits you get from ALA will depend on your health and what kind of diet you're on. It's a good antioxidant and liver aid no matter what. But if your young, with good slin sensitivity and on a moderate to high carb/low fat mass gain diet, then the chances are it won't make a big diff to your gains. If you said no to any of those three criteria then it may help ya. Maybe try using it just with your post workout carbs and creatine and see how that works? But honestly, my only objection to ALA is the same I have to drugs like hGH. They're both good, but to me they do not have a good cost to benefit ratio. If I were type 2 diabetic or on a CKD, then I would spend the money, otherwise no. My body already has a very efficient system to get carbs into my muscles and reduce post prandial blood glucose.
In your case pact, the benefits you get from ALA will depend on your health and what kind of diet you're on. It's a good antioxidant and liver aid no matter what. But if your young, with good slin sensitivity and on a moderate to high carb/low fat mass gain diet, then the chances are it won't make a big diff to your gains. If you said no to any of those three criteria then it may help ya. Maybe try using it just with your post workout carbs and creatine and see how that works? But honestly, my only objection to ALA is the same I have to drugs like hGH. They're both good, but to me they do not have a good cost to benefit ratio. If I were type 2 diabetic or on a CKD, then I would spend the money, otherwise no. My body already has a very efficient system to get carbs into my muscles and reduce post prandial blood glucose.
MS, well im 25, 6'3" and 198lbs prob about 8-10%. i wouldn't mind my last two abs to come out but i realize i need to get bigger and stronger for hockey (i play professionally in the minors). i just finished clenand that helped my strength but other than that im natural.
i figure to add 500-1000cals a day to my diet once i start the creatine and ala in a couple weeks. i already get 250-300g of protein so those added cals with come mostly from carbs and fats. i just want lbm since im an athlete as opposed to a pure bulking cycle..i need to perform not be fat! do you think by adding 2-3g a day of ala that would ensure that i stay lean? any other thoughts or advice are gladly welcome
thank you
pact
i figure to add 500-1000cals a day to my diet once i start the creatine and ala in a couple weeks. i already get 250-300g of protein so those added cals with come mostly from carbs and fats. i just want lbm since im an athlete as opposed to a pure bulking cycle..i need to perform not be fat! do you think by adding 2-3g a day of ala that would ensure that i stay lean? any other thoughts or advice are gladly welcome
thank you
pact
MS said:
ALA is a great supp. If I could afford it I would take lots of it every day!
With all due respect, MS notice that therefore you have not actually tried the amount in question, and therefore have no basis to say that it would not work. I have, and it has worked for me and several others
If you've tried that amount/day for 2 weeks and it doesn't lead you to better fat loss, or leaner muscle gains, then I'll concede that there are some people that may not get this benefit. This is leading edge stuff, and there are few studies as to what happens in humans or rats if given high amounts of ALA for extended periods of time, and made to exercise and eat properly. All we have are testimonials from some people. It seems to yield favorable results in most people, based on testimonials on this newsgroup, as wells as some (non-scientific) EF poll data.
You speak from theory I speak from experience. And yes ALA is expensive. But, prices are going down. I would not have been able to afford at all this amount several years ago..But if used properly, for me it's worth it. I will never cycle to bulk or diet down without it again. Ever.
But a lot of people take their results from keto dieting and assume it works just as good in all situations...BUT a lot of people take their results from keto dieting [with ala] and assume it works just as good in all situations.
My experience is that it is great for both dieting down or bulking up. When you diet with ALA you can be in a ketogenic state, eat a decent amount of carbs, have your muscles reasonably full of glycogen and lose mostly fat.When bulking up (especially during a real cycle) with 6g+ ALA/day you can shift the balance to all LBM gains and zero fat gain, or even experience fat loss simultaneously.
There's nothing WRONG with taking ALA on a high carb, high calorie diet.
Yep, probably one the best things you could ever do for a bulking cycle.
If you're insulin resistant or using lots of gear it's a good idea to use it in this sitch.
Yep I agree with you again. Again highly recommended.I speak from experience. We gotta stop this!
BUT, those carb calories don't magically disappear just because you've taken ALA.
Again I agree with you. They haven't magically disappeared! The unused glucose is converted to glycogen and stored in muscles, instead of adipose tissue to a greater degree than it normally would without ALA.
If you eat above maintainance on ALA, a greater portion will be soaked up by skeletal muscle. Since it gets first dibs to soaking up nutrients, very little gets to the adipose tissue. ALA is clearly changing the degree of over-compensation that can occur. It's a true nutrient partitioner. This has been my experience. Sure, it is possible to get fat while you take ALA, but only because you're not taking the right amount, and are not synchronizing with your workouts properly.
.. Once your muscles are full of glycogen, they are full.
Yes, but that's exactly what I'm talking about MS. ALA changes how full they can get before it spills over into fat. I'm beginning to think that it's proportional to the amount of ALA taken, and perhaps to also having ALA circulating in your blood constantly.
Even with over-compensation from carb-depleting/loading/ALA, your muscles cannot realistically take up more than 300g of carbs unless you're Ronnie Coleman.....
MS, I have 220gms carbs just as a preworkout drink (with ALA of course). I also have carbs in the morning, noon, and night as well, not to mention as a postworkout drink. I'm sure I have more than 400-500gms carbs/day. I'm not Ronnie Coleman, and I'm only 187 lbs, 5'11" (@3.5%bf)...
so those extra carbs will get burned or stored depending on your energy balance. ALA will help you store them more quickly!
No argument with you there. I submit that ALA allows the extra carbs and other nutrients to just be partitioned more into your muscles rather than fat. This is only because muscle tissue takes the first shot at soaking up the stuff. It is possible to modulate how much is soaked up, by increasing/decreasing the amount of ALA. This has also been my real-life experience.
In your case pact, the benefits you get from ALA will depend on your health and what kind of diet you're on. It's a good antioxidant and liver aid no matter what. But if your young, with good slin sensitivity and on a moderate to high carb/low fat mass gain diet, then the chances are it won't make a big diff to your gains.
I think that often people will either not take enough ALA for fat loss purposes or lean gain purposes because they are afraid to, or can't afford it, or can't handle the initial lethargy, and then come back and say it does not work.When you do that you have no basis for criticizing a fat loss tool in which requires a certain amount of ALA to yield visible results.
I also used to take 600-900mg ALA/day with 0 visibly noticeable effect. Upped that amount to 3+g for fat loss and 6+g for bulking up, and it's effect became highly visible.
If you said no to any of those three criteria then it may help ya. Maybe try using it just with your post workout carbs and creatine and see how that works? But honestly, my only objection to ALA is the same I have to drugs like hGH. They're both good, but to me they do not have a good cost to benefit ratio.
If you have 50 gms of *good* quality ALA it will cost you X amount of money. Used it at an iffective amount/day for fat loss purposes and you have wasted/lost all your money. Increase the amount to the proper magnitude, and you'll notice the effect, and have actually gotten something that worth it out of it.
If I were type 2 diabetic or on a CKD, then I would spend the money, otherwise no. My body already has a very efficient system to get carbs into my muscles and reduce post prandial blood glucose.
I'm very happy for you. However most people when they do a bulking cycle will gain some fat even on steroids. Quite a few people have some degree of insulin resistance. Especially the olrder bros. And we're all getting older every day.. Even you MS. This is anabolic board, and it should be of interest to most that the possibility for even better lean gains and greater fat loss can be achieved by the addition of ALA to their cycle..
Plus it is not necessarily a given that only people that have insulin resistance, or type 2 diabetics can achieve great results!
I'm quite sure that it can help people with great innate insulin sensitivty even more. Think about it. You increase your muscle cells insulin sensitivity as you workout, which is why post workout drinks are so effective. Doesn't your lack of insulin resistance make that even better for you? What if you juiced? That also increases nutrient uptake to muscle cells. In your case won't that just allow you to hold even more glyclogen in your muscle?
Regards,
rangerx83
barnidge said:
Of course, you'll be having many more carbs/day not to mention other nutrients as well. As a general rule of thumb I would take 12mg ALA per 1 carb gram. So if you drank an ultra fuel (100g carbs maltodextrin) take 1200mg ALA with it. Split your carb intake throughout the day and figure out roughly how much ALA to take with each meal. How many carb calories do you take on your refeed day?
regards,
rangerx83
Hey ranger, good to see a thinking bro posting on this board. I understand your evangelism because you've seen such great benefits from very large doses of ALA.
To correct one of your assumptions, I HAVE wasted a large amount of money on ALA at high doses. And I AM an older person, but due to a lifetime of eating in a GI friendly manner, I have good insulin sensitivity. So maybe I'm just lucky???? Or maybe there's a lot of paranoia floating around these days about slin sensitivity, and folks who needn't worry about it are getting all confused. It is not a big deal to have a glucose tolerance and insulin test. I do these regularly because type 2 runs in my family. JUST as an FYI (since you like to talk about real life experience) I had a glucose tolerance 6 months ago (just before Christmas) which was normal. I had another one a few weeks ago where the only thing I changed was taking 1g of ALA 30 minutes before the test began. My glucose clearance rate was actually slower with the ALA, though it was a very slight decrease and still well within the normal range. I attribute this to my menstual phase being luteal and therefore my glucose tolerance being slightly reduced. Certainly in my real life experience, ALA made less than no difference to my ability to dispose of glucose in a timely manner.
I assume by your results that you have some problems with getting the glucose preferentially into your muscles, which is why you're seeing good results with high dose ALA. How much dose the ALA cost you?? Have you had your glucose tolerance and insulin tested? If not, I think you should. Of course, as we both agree, large doses of AAS stuff up your sensitivity anyways, so I would be surprised if you DIDN'T have some reduced insulin sensitivity.
In fact you've touched upon a topic that I am very interested in (just because it's unknown territory). My suspicion is that juiceheads benefit from high dose ALA more than just about anyone else on this planet. You take someone who's muscles are already in a superphysiological state of anabolism but with reduced insulin sensitivity, and you boost their insulin sensitivity to take advantage of their already highish insulin levels, and VOILA, you have all the benefits of shooting slin without any of the risks, not to mention it's also improving your health instead of taxing it further. Add to this the liver protective effects for those taking orals and high protein diets and you have a supp which is worth the money if you're gonna cycle.
It still comes down to cost for me. I'm not a juicer, and my insulin sensitivity is good. I saw no noticeable benefits from taking ALA as a nutrient partitioner except possibly coming out of and into ketosis on CKD. This board is all about getting others inputs and experiences, which this thread has been great for. There are clearly many people for whom ALA is a worthwhile investment. But there's no way of knowing on an individual basis without trying it for yourself.
To correct one of your assumptions, I HAVE wasted a large amount of money on ALA at high doses. And I AM an older person, but due to a lifetime of eating in a GI friendly manner, I have good insulin sensitivity. So maybe I'm just lucky???? Or maybe there's a lot of paranoia floating around these days about slin sensitivity, and folks who needn't worry about it are getting all confused. It is not a big deal to have a glucose tolerance and insulin test. I do these regularly because type 2 runs in my family. JUST as an FYI (since you like to talk about real life experience) I had a glucose tolerance 6 months ago (just before Christmas) which was normal. I had another one a few weeks ago where the only thing I changed was taking 1g of ALA 30 minutes before the test began. My glucose clearance rate was actually slower with the ALA, though it was a very slight decrease and still well within the normal range. I attribute this to my menstual phase being luteal and therefore my glucose tolerance being slightly reduced. Certainly in my real life experience, ALA made less than no difference to my ability to dispose of glucose in a timely manner.
I assume by your results that you have some problems with getting the glucose preferentially into your muscles, which is why you're seeing good results with high dose ALA. How much dose the ALA cost you?? Have you had your glucose tolerance and insulin tested? If not, I think you should. Of course, as we both agree, large doses of AAS stuff up your sensitivity anyways, so I would be surprised if you DIDN'T have some reduced insulin sensitivity.
In fact you've touched upon a topic that I am very interested in (just because it's unknown territory). My suspicion is that juiceheads benefit from high dose ALA more than just about anyone else on this planet. You take someone who's muscles are already in a superphysiological state of anabolism but with reduced insulin sensitivity, and you boost their insulin sensitivity to take advantage of their already highish insulin levels, and VOILA, you have all the benefits of shooting slin without any of the risks, not to mention it's also improving your health instead of taxing it further. Add to this the liver protective effects for those taking orals and high protein diets and you have a supp which is worth the money if you're gonna cycle.
It still comes down to cost for me. I'm not a juicer, and my insulin sensitivity is good. I saw no noticeable benefits from taking ALA as a nutrient partitioner except possibly coming out of and into ketosis on CKD. This board is all about getting others inputs and experiences, which this thread has been great for. There are clearly many people for whom ALA is a worthwhile investment. But there's no way of knowing on an individual basis without trying it for yourself.
barnidge said:
I didn't count calories of what I was eating. I counted calories of what I cut out. This is because the rate that I was eating at was my maintanance phase, since I was neither gaining nor losing weight.
I took my favorite late night snacks, calculated how much of it came up as 500 calories and cut that out. I think that added up to 2 yogurts at night..
That plus the ALA, 5-6 days/week weights, zero cardio, and a small amount (i do mean small 40mg tren/50mg prop every 2 days) and I got the best results ever. (start 01/01/02 206 @ 12%bf, now 05/30/02 [email protected]%bf). Notice that I've gained some LBM there. That was NOT due to the ALA, that was due to the anabolics. However, the quality of the gains were the best, ever.
The ALA helped the juice work even better for me....
regards,
rangerx83
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MS said:Hey ranger, good to see a thinking bro posting on this board. I understand your evangelism because you've seen such great benefits from very large doses of ALA.
Thanks, I'm glad you can appreciate it...
To correct one of your assumptions, I HAVE wasted a large amount of money on ALA at high doses. And I AM an older person, but due to a lifetime of eating in a GI friendly manner, I have good insulin sensitivity.
Okay, I stand corrected. Btw, how long did you do it for, and how many grams of carbs did you have with the ALA? Did you try to time the ALA/massive carb intake with your workouts?
.....I assume by your results that you have some problems with getting the glucose preferentially into your muscles, which is why you're seeing good results with high dose ALA.
I think that in the bb world you may be the exception to the rule. Maybe even in the 'real' world. I'm sure most bb'ers have that problem, whether they are on juice or not. Most juicers gain some fat while bulking, (just like me) and I assume that they would also get better results if they added similar amounts of ALA to their cycles.
...How much dose the ALA cost you?? Have you had your glucose tolerance and insulin tested? If not, I think you should. Of course, as we both agree, large doses of AAS stuff up your sensitivity anyways, so I would be surprised if you DIDN'T have some reduced insulin sensitivity.
Hey, if I have my reduced insulin sensitivity to thank for giving phenomenal results while using ALA+juice, all I have to say is thank you Jeezus!
Seriously though, I'm now at 3.2%bf 190lbs. When I was doing 150mg/day tren, I never even came close to this type of result. Certainly I did not lose body fat. I'm now doing 80mg tren every other day, and am seeing far better results.
In fact you've touched upon a topic that I am very interested in (just because it's unknown territory). My suspicion is that juiceheads benefit from high dose ALA more than just about anyone else on this planet.
I totally agree. While I do think that there will be benefits for a lot of people who don't juice and take mass quants of ALA, I can only vouch for fellow juice head, since my experimentation was done under those conditions. However, the juicing for me is a constant. \Actually it's a reduced constant since less juice is giving me better result with the ALA than huge quantities of just juice...
You take someone who's muscles are already in a superphysiological state of anabolism but with reduced insulin sensitivity, and you boost their insulin sensitivity to take advantage of their already highish insulin levels, and VOILA, you have all the benefits of shooting slin without any of the risks, not to mention it's also improving your health instead of taxing it further. Add to this the liver protective effects for those taking orals and high protein diets and you have a supp which is worth the money if you're gonna cycle.
Hmmmm, you may be right on this one...
It still comes down to cost for me. I'm not a juicer, and my insulin sensitivity is good. I saw no noticeable benefits from taking ALA as a nutrient partitioner except possibly coming out of and into ketosis on CKD. This board is all about getting others inputs and experiences, which this thread has been great for. There are clearly many people for whom ALA is a worthwhile investment. But there's no way of knowing on an individual basis without trying it for yourself.
On your last point, I couldn't agree with you more. People need to try it for themselves. And then decide if it's worth it.
If the majority of people have good experiences with it, then it'll just spread by word of mouth, and it'll be the next great supplement since creatine. Now, don't ya feel a bit left out for not being insulin resistant?
I've noticed that the majority of people who have tried mass quantities of ALA have had great success. If they were insulin resistant, then that is the norm, and I'm happy to have contributed to some extend to helping them achieve their goals.
regards,
Rangerx83
barnidge said:
Fruits, cereals, pastas, nuts, yogurts, etc.I'm currently bulking up.
When I was cutting up, I basically had my carbs just before and just after my workout (with ALA).
Yes, I did have cheat days where I INHALED pasta with cheese sauce, ice cream, rich desserts etc. But these were the exception to the rule. I do feel however that sporadically cheating actually contributed to my fat loss (probably reset my metabolism)...
regards,
Rangerx83
barnidge said:
I'm sorry, but just like with insulin + ALA, I cannot recommend the combo, since the additive effect may be hypoglycemia induced death.
ALA alone, unless taken in ridiculously high amounts (like 100 300mg caps in one sitting) is perfectly safe. It has such a short half life, that taking even 3 gms in one sitting will bring you to extremely low safe levels within 2 hours (under 150mg in your blood stream).
Add insulin or glucophage, and the results may be un-predictable. You may not be able to correctly calculate the carb amount you need to take to stop the hypoglycemia.
Then again, Fonz mentioned that adding ALA to insulin is a great idea, since it would minimize fat gain. He's stopped posting on the ALA subject matter. I would not risk it, and am perfectly happy with the goals I've achieved using ALA alone as a glucose disposal agent.
regards,
rangerx83
MonStar1023
New member
On refeed days when I am taking up to 700g of carbs each day, do you guys recommend 2g of ALA per day or 3g of ALA to get good results?
$ wise I would much rather take in just 2g per day, but I also want the best results that I can get. So thats why I am asking - what do you guys think?
MS
$ wise I would much rather take in just 2g per day, but I also want the best results that I can get. So thats why I am asking - what do you guys think?
MS
trial0rzgrl
New member
I think its deff helped my muscles out!
drveejay11
New member
Yes indeed it works for me...
drveejay11
New member
I love my ALA... it has helped tremendously
THE BOUNCER
New member
bump, would also like to know? is 2g a day enough?MonStar1023 said:
wow this thread kicks ass. I'm new to ala, but it sounds like what i should get.
Well heres my story. Im 19, 6'1, 205, dont know bf %. When i was young i was super skinny till i was 7. Then i got super tubby till about 2 years ago. Started by working out a little, then more and now my body is good, but not defined. I dont know about bulking and cutting and all that crap, i just dont have enough time or care enough (now at least). My goal since i was tubby was just to get lean, but gain muscle too. Now my goal is to develop more defenition, of course get that 6 pack! Im not really on a diet now, i just watch what i eat. I would guess that i am pretty insulin resistant since i was fat, and i know if i ate fast food alot i would gain weight again. So how would ala help me? If i take alot before, say dinner, where i eat alot of carbs what exactly would it do? I'm tryin to do ome research but your advice would help alot.
Well heres my story. Im 19, 6'1, 205, dont know bf %. When i was young i was super skinny till i was 7. Then i got super tubby till about 2 years ago. Started by working out a little, then more and now my body is good, but not defined. I dont know about bulking and cutting and all that crap, i just dont have enough time or care enough (now at least). My goal since i was tubby was just to get lean, but gain muscle too. Now my goal is to develop more defenition, of course get that 6 pack! Im not really on a diet now, i just watch what i eat. I would guess that i am pretty insulin resistant since i was fat, and i know if i ate fast food alot i would gain weight again. So how would ala help me? If i take alot before, say dinner, where i eat alot of carbs what exactly would it do? I'm tryin to do ome research but your advice would help alot.
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BTW, i think i found an answer to your questions about how much to take............
2.2g of ALA = 733mg or R-ALA, if you use the general formula that you only need to take 1/3 the R-ALA compared to ALA.
http://www.healthandage.com/html/res/com/ConsSupplements/AlphaLinolenicAcidALAcs.html
2.2g of ALA = 733mg or R-ALA, if you use the general formula that you only need to take 1/3 the R-ALA compared to ALA.
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NY Muscle
Well-known member
quote:
How to Take It
The recommended adequate intake of ALA in the diet is listed below:
Pediatric
Infants that are breastfed should receive sufficient amounts of ALA if the mother has an adequate intake of
this fatty acid.
Infant formula should contain 1.5% ALA.
Adult
2,200 mg/day of ALA
(100 grams of raw flaxseed provides 22,800 mg of ALA; 100 grams of dried butternuts provides 8,700 mg of
ALA; 100 grams of English and Persian walnuts provides 6800 mg of ALA; 100 grams of cooked soybeans
provides 2,100 mg of ALA)
***********
Im not sure who wrote that but its WAY OFFFFFF
ALA.... Alpha Lipoic Acid is not a FATTY acid or omega 3 that flax and nuts contain...HUGEEEEEEEE difference......... be aware of this...
you MAY be thinking of LINEOLIC acid
How to Take It
The recommended adequate intake of ALA in the diet is listed below:
Pediatric
Infants that are breastfed should receive sufficient amounts of ALA if the mother has an adequate intake of
this fatty acid.
Infant formula should contain 1.5% ALA.
Adult
2,200 mg/day of ALA
(100 grams of raw flaxseed provides 22,800 mg of ALA; 100 grams of dried butternuts provides 8,700 mg of
ALA; 100 grams of English and Persian walnuts provides 6800 mg of ALA; 100 grams of cooked soybeans
provides 2,100 mg of ALA)
***********
Im not sure who wrote that but its WAY OFFFFFF
ALA.... Alpha Lipoic Acid is not a FATTY acid or omega 3 that flax and nuts contain...HUGEEEEEEEE difference......... be aware of this...
you MAY be thinking of LINEOLIC acid
100% correcto mundo NY Muscle. In the context of breast feeding and infants, ALA is used to mean "alpha linolenic acid" which is also pretty good for ya, but nothing like "alpha lipoic acid".
In a healthy infant/adult human the body can make all of the alpha LIPOIC acid it needs ("healthy" being an incredibly vague term which prolly applies to very few folks leading a standard western lifestyle/diet). However the body cannot make any alpha LINOLENIC acid, so it is even more crucial to make sure you get enough of this stuff.....Alpha LINOLENIC acid also increases insulin sensitivity in folks that are deficient.
In a healthy infant/adult human the body can make all of the alpha LIPOIC acid it needs ("healthy" being an incredibly vague term which prolly applies to very few folks leading a standard western lifestyle/diet). However the body cannot make any alpha LINOLENIC acid, so it is even more crucial to make sure you get enough of this stuff.....Alpha LINOLENIC acid also increases insulin sensitivity in folks that are deficient.
drveejay11
New member
Yes, I have to say that ALA is great....
i've been reading thru this thread and noticed something pretty interesting--maybe because i'm a chick don't really know but what when the ALA puts me in ketosis, nothing knocks it out and effects of one dose lasts 6.5-7.5 hours (begins to taper off somewhere around the 7 hr mark).
i forgot had a pee test appt and my doc would shit if he saw me in ketosis so decided to eat every piece of sugar laden candy i could find to try and break (starting about 2hrs before appt). i couldn't break it--my doc went ballistic, i tried to tell him it was the ALA and he looked at me like i was an idiot because i thought some antioxidant could do this.
anyway--when i want to get in ketosis fast or stay in ketosis but have some carbs, i take 600mg prior to eating--1 hour prior, i've noticed if i see low on the ketostix then start eating, ketostix stay low--if i wait until stix say med-high then stays there. i think if you eat too soon, stops the effects at level started but if you let it reach a higher potential then will continue until next dose. you all are using extremely high amounts--i'm not a body builder though so i guess it depends on what you are using it for--i take 600mg every 7 hours and wait one hour before eating.
i forgot had a pee test appt and my doc would shit if he saw me in ketosis so decided to eat every piece of sugar laden candy i could find to try and break (starting about 2hrs before appt). i couldn't break it--my doc went ballistic, i tried to tell him it was the ALA and he looked at me like i was an idiot because i thought some antioxidant could do this.
anyway--when i want to get in ketosis fast or stay in ketosis but have some carbs, i take 600mg prior to eating--1 hour prior, i've noticed if i see low on the ketostix then start eating, ketostix stay low--if i wait until stix say med-high then stays there. i think if you eat too soon, stops the effects at level started but if you let it reach a higher potential then will continue until next dose. you all are using extremely high amounts--i'm not a body builder though so i guess it depends on what you are using it for--i take 600mg every 7 hours and wait one hour before eating.
I think thats interesting, i usually end up taking my r-ALA 0-5 min before eating. I was wondering how long i should wait before eating, and was worrying that the r-ALA was'nt having enough time to act. Lately i have been taking it 10-15 min before eating, because it just made more sense to me.
i think waiting is good--i'd say 15m to 30m; i'm probably overdoing it at one hour but it just works for me--i don't eat until i get to work so if i take about 30m before i leave home in the morning the timing works fine plus don't have to retake before lunch usually then take on the way home from work and ready for dinner. i used to take as a simple antioxident--so like vitamins i would take with food, well one day i took them and forgot to eat (got busy) and realized a couple hours later i was in really mild ketosis--it took me forever to make the association but when i did i started to experiment alot looking for the smallest amount of ALA to keep me in the state i wanted to be and how long it lasts.
I haven't tried the r-ala (think jarrow combo once). I've been ordering mine from iceman too--tried a few different brands to see how worked and which ones were good then thought for iceman's price i would try his--they work fine.
Curious how you'd like the regular stuff in comparison to the r-ala. If you are going for ketosis, pick a dose (over 500) then test with keto strips at 15 and 30m after taking and see how you register. I'm convinced it dose doesn't depend on size just becuase of all the diabetic studies with ALA that I've read so I would start with 600mg then up it if you don't see the reading you want--now if your dosing to get the most glucose into muscle????
Curious how you'd like the regular stuff in comparison to the r-ala. If you are going for ketosis, pick a dose (over 500) then test with keto strips at 15 and 30m after taking and see how you register. I'm convinced it dose doesn't depend on size just becuase of all the diabetic studies with ALA that I've read so I would start with 600mg then up it if you don't see the reading you want--now if your dosing to get the most glucose into muscle????
