Increasing the number of sets

[gymrat]

all of last summer I dd 4 total working sets, for each body part. Using this low set high intensity workout, gave me the best lifts i had ever had. Over the Winter, i did 6-7 working sets.

Now that I'm bulking again i am think of really turing things around for awhile, and do 18 working sets. I wont do this for a long time, but maybe 8 weeks or so.

Just looking for some feed back.

 

[louden_swain]

All of those working sets are not necessary. I would be interested in providing an example of your proposed routine.

 

[bigstve12]

That sounds like a lot of sets...Maybe it would be a could shock routine though...I wouldnt stick with it for 8weeks, increases chances of overtraining. maybe 4 weeks would be better

 

[gonelifting]

When I go heavy for like 3 sets of 5... and do that week after week and the weight starts getting too heavy. Instead of adding weight the next workout (if I barely did 5 reps) I would just add more sets with the same weight. so I would end up doing 4-5 or more sets. until I get all the reps with that weight.

wtf did`nt finish my post and it posted. anyway I sometimes vary my sets but not as drastic as you`re planning. but I think it`s a good idea. good luck

 

[Debaser]

I'd be surprised if you gained more than a pound.

 

[louden_swain]

I'd be surprised if you gained more than a pound.

Me too.

The problem is that many folks think that increased sets means increased growth. . .you and I both know thats not the case.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Looks like it's time for you to look into DC, HST, Heavy Duty, the post by Realgains on the womens board (sticky) etc. 18 sets is just killer. You mention you've made good progress with high intensity, why stop now? You grow outside the gym. Stimulate growth, and then get out of the gym. Also eat, eat, eat.

 

[louden_swain]

Looks like it's time for you to look into DC, HST, Heavy Duty, the post by Realgains on the womens board (sticky) etc. 18 sets is just killer. You mention you've made good progress with high intensity, why stop now? You grow outside the gym. Stimulate growth, and then get out of the gym. Also eat, eat, eat.

Our point is that you dont need so many sets to breakdown muscle tissue.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Louden, I understand that point, and the point you were trying to make, I just don't think he does! LOL. If I did 18 sets, I would be in the hospital, well probably not that far, but I do know I wouldn't be growing.


I am a very firm believer that 1 set is more than enough. I've looked over log books, and found I've always training in such a manner. I would always count warms up as working sets, I didn't know people didn't count those LOL. So, when I thought I was doing 4 sets of squats for example, I was really only doing one working set, the others were just light warm ups. I've grown just fine. No need for 12 sets this, or 18 sets that.

I once tried a true volume workout. I did 12 sets a body part, and I was sore alright, but a 'sick' sore. I felt like I had body aches, almost like a flu. I just felt lousy. When I do a DC workout, or when I did Heavy Duty, I always feel/felt good. Always sore, but a good sore. Like I had some hard work, productive work.

I guess try the 18 sets. I just don't think you will like what you get out of it, which will probably be nothing.

 

[louden_swain]

The problem with using high sets is, that the body will become vulnerable to injury. As time progresses, the joints will wear down and begin to ache. Progress will become stagnant because essentially you are doing nothing but pumping up the muscle and causing extensive muscle breakdown.

 

[collegiateLifter]

you could however go high set and cycle down to a low set protocol like DC....

 

[Lord_Suston]

easy there DC advocates.... the shock of doing more sets may help him get past a plateua. And swqitching up a routine is good shock for the body so it won't stagnate. After he could switch to DC

gymrat I think that might too much of a jump in set volume try for maybe 9-12 sets.

Debase gaining weight is a function of calories not of training. LBM is a function of training. don't knock it, this person may respond well to high amounts of sets. Many people do and many don't relax and try to give so helpful tips

 

[nanotitan]

gonelifting's sort of progression is the way I've trained for the past 7 months or so. Only going to failure or just short of failure on that last 3rd or 4th set. Not really warming up at all (though choosing relatively safe exercises only). Made amazing (for me) gains in strength not so much mass but I guess that last part had to do more with my diet that anything else.

Also the amount of effective volume depends on your training frequency so if you change one expect the other to change too, unless you actively do something to increase recovery, eating better, resting better, supplementing better, etc. Notice, not more but better (although in certain cases, like eating for mass, more really is better).

 

[nanotitan]

question for C3bodybuilding & louden_swain:

what type of training program do you credit for your best gains (not counting beginner gains)?

just curious & I imagine comparing the volumes in those programs to what gymrat plans to do would help him have a better idea of what you guys are talking about.

 

[bigstve12]

Im only in my second week of doing the 5X5 and i already feel stronger, my training partner has seen the differenve also! I believe its b/c i was doing much more volume before and the decreased volume is really making a change

 

[Debaser]

easy there DC advocates.... the shock of doing more sets may help him get past a plateua. And swqitching up a routine is good shock for the body so it won't stagnate. After he could switch to DC

gymrat I think that might too much of a jump in set volume try for maybe 9-12 sets.

Debase gaining weight is a function of calories not of training. LBM is a function of training. don't knock it, this person may respond well to high amounts of sets. Many people do and many don't relax and try to give so helpful tips

He never said he was at a plateau. Anyway, how would overtraining help you break a plateau? I'm about to make a blanket statement:

You never, ever, need 18 sets per body part.

If DC training, HST, HIT, etc. have all shown to produce incredible gains on 1-4 sets per bodypart, what would make you think 18 would work so well.

Even if he had good genetics and 18 sets per bodypart did not overtrain him, he would still be moving at a snail's pace compared to DC, HST or something similar.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Nan, I would say my best gains were made when I went from 219-242. I only did 3 sets per body part once a week.

Here is an example of a chest/back workout:
Bench Press 1 working set
Incline DB Press 1 working set
Dips 1 working set
Chins 1 working set
Bent over rows 1 working set
and Deadlifts 1 working set.

A lot of times I would skip flat bench, and rows. So most of the time Only doing 2 sets for these body parts. All the rest of my body parts were giving the same treatment (just basic exercises). Except for arms which were only given 1 set each (barbell curl and close grip press). Now, I also was eating a ton of food. Instead of putting one scoop of powder in a shake, I would put three, and add some heavy whipping cream. Always eating some eggs, quality carbs, beef etc.

But when I switched to Heavy Duty and then later DC I made even BETTER gains. I am sidelinded due to injury, but once I make it back, I will stick with DC.

Well, you asked for it, there you have it. Pretty simple, nothing fancy. If you want the rest of the workout Nan, I will post it.

 

[casualbb]

Ran across this giant article today...this article examines volume comparison studies as far back as the 70's.

http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/community/educational_resources/ep652_00/muscle_strength.html

That being said though, I think higher volume (say, 3 sets) isn't unreasonable as long as you don't have to lower your frequency to allow the higher volume.

-casualbb

 

[Baoh]

As predicted.

 

[nanotitan]

As casualbb points out, finding the right frequency to go with your volume is the most reasonable way to go about optimizing your hypertrophy training.

C3, I suspect your greater gains on DC were due to this. Although your volume was reduced, it was reduced to a level where it still produced a sufficient stimulus in your body. Reducing the volume in turn allowed for increased frequency. Instead of growing once every 7 days, you grew twice every 8 days (I assume, since this is the original DC template).

So gymrat, If I were you I'd be more concerned in increasing the total volume in a year rather the total volume in a workout. Like Doggcrapp says, rather than having 52 sessions of growth stimulation aka workouts, you could have 90 or so and grow from all of them as well.

 

[crayonofdoom]

So gymrat, If I were you I'd be more concerned in increasing the total volume in a year rather the total volume in a workout. Like Doggcrapp says, rather than having 52 sessions of growth stimulation aka workouts, you could have 90 or so and grow from all of them as well.

Great Point!

 

[nanotitan]

C3, I'm curious. When you did DC did you do the full 6-8 sec eccentrics on every rep?

I read a post somewhere where DC mentioned thet he told everyone that it was a 6-8 sec negative so that, when attemping to count under stress, they would get a true 3 sec negative.

What were your results on DC anyway?

 

[c3bodybuilding]

Nan, I did it exactly as he stated in the Cycle for Pennies thread on Animals board. I read through it many times, collecting all the information. If you don't do it, you can make some mistakes. So, everything was done as he wants it done.

My results were great. I had just come back from having a flu for 4 weeks. I was out of the gym, and eating poorly. I was down from a high of 258 to 240. Within a week of eating like my old ways (which is how DC likes you to eat, A LOT), and using his routine, I was back up to the 250's. Now, here is where I was excited about the DC program. My muscles now had a different look. My pecs were more round, biceps had more peak etc. This is exactly what Dante says his stretching may do for you.

I plan on jumping back on the bandwagon soon.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

There were two pro bodybuilders in the 70's (Michalik, Defendis) who did up to 70 sets per bodypart. Both these guys had very good genetics and both used incredible (make that astronomical-especially Michalik) amounts of steroids. They were both middle-of-the-road pro bodybuilders and thats it. People (especially new bodybuilders) assume getting a larger muscle is the product of workload. In my beginning years of bodybuilding I followed the M+F and Flex routines and was doing 7 sets of squats, 4 sets of leg press, 4 sets of hack squats and 3 leg extensions. I would be destroyed for 3 days and were my legs getting gigantic? Nope. They were growing at a pace alot less than they are now. I mean do you want to be a marathon runner or a muscular sprinter here?! Volume of sets does not mean better muscle growth if all things are equal. In fact, once a training/growth stimulus during a workout is reached, everything after that--that you continue on doing is using up glycogen stores, recovery time and (beware) maybe even catabolizing muscle mass. Great! 2 steps forward and one and a half steps backward! I laugh because so many people get brainwased by pro bodybuilder routines. Go to Venice and see how some of these guys train. They will do three-four sets of non taxing but increasing weight up to their working weight which will be a hard set. Then they will do 2-4 other exercises per bodypart the same way. I call that 3-4 sets (because why is someone counting warmup sets that dont even tax themselves at all)---these pros will call that 12-16 sets and you guys read that and think----oh JoePro is going all out for 16 sets--it must work! Wrong, they are going all out for 3-4 sets. If workload equals muscle gains then train with 50 sets a bodypart--please let me know how great your gains are. A 20 rep squat with heavy weight is a brutal exercise to do and very very rarely do you find someone who doesnt grow from that. If i do a 20 rep squat with 400 plus lbs, Im done, I have nothing left and if I can still do another 17 sets, Id be taken out on a stretcher. The main problem i see with the type of training I recommend (DC training) is it shows people how candyass they were training when they were doing 12-20 sets per bodypart. Think about it you people who do DC training. Could you go back to 10-20 set training at the same intensity? You would destroy yourself. If i had a nickel for every person that has told me "I thought I was training hard back then but I didnt realize i was halfassing it until now training with you"---I would be a rich man. I wish people would think of terms of "what will I look like a year from now" instead of "right now"--because then they could see the big picture. "Right now" to people means hammering themselves into oblivion with 18 sets a bodypart--thinking how long your in the gym means progress. Guess how long its going to take you to recover from that? How many times in a year are you going to be able to train a bodypart like that? The guys I train are smoking people around them in the gyms. I am getting people to a point in a year which previously took them 3 years. If you successfully train your chest (without overtraining) twice as many times in a year than what you can do with 18 sets per bodypart---your chest is going to be roughly twice the size! So why the hell do you want to do 18 sets per bodypart?! So in most peoples thinking if you do an all out exercise such as front miliatary presses on a smythe machine to the best of your ability--your not going to grow from that. Somehow magically if you add 3 sets of upright rows, and 3 sets of dumbell laterals, and 3 sets of cable side laterals ONLY THEN will you grow?! BULLSHIT! You better tell every incredibley round and insanely huge powerlifter in the superheavy and 242lb and up classes that theory. Because ratio to ratio of # of powerlifters to # of bodybuilders in this world--the powerlifters are much more successfull at building an accumalation of muscle mass fast. And they sure as hell aint doing cable side laterals. You can always tell a powerlifter or powerbodybuilder onstage when or if they decide to diet down for a bodybuilding contest. They are the ones with tremendously thick backs, from traps on down in the rear bicep pose. Predominantly from deadlifts and maybe 1-2 other pulling movements. Meanwhile you have pseudo experts in bodybuilding saying "well you gotta do wide cable pulls for the rhomboids and rear cable laterals for the rear delts etc etc etc"

 

[gymrat]

Well, I did about 18 sets for each body part for about two weeks. For most exercises, i felt weaker by the second workout.

Too much. Lesson learned.