I'm torn between doing Westside or the 5x5

[psychedout]

I cannot decide which program I want to do. In about 2-3 weeks from now I am going to have a set schedule so I will be able to adhere to either training regime, but I just can't decide what to go with.

My goals are just to get bigger and stronger. Which one would you go with and why?

I've done the madcow/Pendlay 5x5 before and it was good. I did HST once and it was good, but I don't think I will go back (wasn't very fun). Did my own version of the 5x5 and it was good. I've been training single factor for the last 2.5-3 months because of an unpredictable schedule. I still managed to hit all core lifts twice per week with some 5's and 3's here and there. That was my training pretty much for the last period of time. Before that it was once a week bber bullshit LoL.

Westide or 5x5, why?

 

[Guinness5.0]

Funny you should mentiont this as I'm planning to do Westside after my cycle.

One thing I'm having trouble with is what to do about the different squatting styles. Olympic-style squatting is very different from PL squatting, so I don't know if/how to change some of the exercise selection in that regard. What type of squat would you use if you ran Westside?

I guess the only thing I'd say is to read all you can and try something new. You can always go back if it doesn't work, and you learn a lot by the trial/error that new programs encourage.

If you want, I could send you a pretty nifty collection of Westside articles that Anthrax Invasion sent me. Lemme know...

 

[psychedout]

Funny you should mentiont this as I'm planning to do Westside after my cycle.

One thing I'm having trouble with is what to do about the different squatting styles. Olympic-style squatting is very different from PL squatting, so I don't know if/how to change some of the exercise selection in that regard. What type of squat would you use if you ran Westside?

I guess the only thing I'd say is to read all you can and try something new. You can always go back if it doesn't work, and you learn a lot by the trial/error that new programs encourage.

If you want, I could send you a pretty nifty collection of Westside articles that Anthrax Invasion sent me. Lemme know...

I would be squatting Olympic style, not PL style. I'll take a look at some articles. You can hit me at [email protected]

If I do Westside, the one problem is that I don't have boards to do board presses and I don't have a GHR. Could I just bench in a rack with the pins set as close to where I want them as possible?

 

[Guinness5.0]

You have mail...

I wouldn't worry about the GHR - it's great to have but there are other posterior chain movements. And I'm personally not interested in the board work as it seems very PL specific (I may be wrong but it seems that it would only really help someone who uses a bench shirt). I plan to use some overhead stuff in the ME rotation so I should have plenty of variety.

And rack lockouts would be fine. But as for me, I'm weakest at the bottom, so I don't see much use for those types of movements. One thing I hear a lot about Westside is that you've gotta cater it to your indvidual weaknesses or results will be pretty mediocre.

 

[BiggT]

Both are solid.....with Westside though, you really have to be careful to make it an individual routine, if you just copy and paste a routine tailored to somebody else's weaknesses and goals your results will be zero.

You can olympic squat with Westside.....you can do anything.....it isn't a routine or a program, it is like the 5x5, it is a methodology.

If you don't compete equipped, don't get hung up on doing all sorts of lockouts and board work, UNLESS you're weak at lockout.

Each approach can be very effective.....try to think of WSB as the conjugate method and try to think of the 5x5 as progressive overload, the reason I say this is because it will help you set things up for YOU and YOUR weaknesses and avoid a cookie cutter program, especially with WSB, a cookie cutter approach is totally ineffective.

 

[majutsu]

westside is based on a different training philosophy than 5x5. Not contradictory, quite complimentary really, but a totally different landscape.

First of all, Westside is for getting stronger. 5x5 has many mixed goals. Westside does not. There is one goal -- strength.

Westside was an invention of powerlifters. Powerlifters bench, squat and deadlift for a one-rep maximum in competition. Powerlifting judges don't care if you bring the bar to your nipples and isolate your pecs with a nice slow time-under-tension. You merely bring the bar to your body somewhere, pause, and lockout fully. It so happens that bringing the bar to your belly and moving really fast is the best way to move weight. Also, to squat with wide legs and a pushed-back ass lets you bring your hamstrings and lower back more to lift much more weight. You get no extra points for a narrow stance or going ass-to-floor. The powerlifter form has evolved to allow most humans to lift the greatest weights within the constraints of the minimalistic powerlifting rules.

Westside was developed to increase your one-rep maximum in the three powerlifts using powerlifter form. Any other application is unlikely to be successful; like using a blender to watch a dvd - someone will get shattered.

Westside comes from russian strength training manuals, like zatsiorsky (I recommend reading this prior to starting westside - can be had on amazon). In these russian manuals, three ways of training with weights were identified:
1)Max effort - Lifting a weight once, the most weight you can lift, or close to it.
2)Repeated effort - Lifting a very submaximal weight many times (reps) until failure. This is well-known to bodybuilders.
3)Dynamic effort - Moving very quickly to increase your power output. Known as plyometrics in the west. Clapping push-ups, jumping from plyo boxes, etc are very well known forms of this training.

All three methods help you lift a one-rep max, but they help in different ways:
1)Max effort - mostly neurological. You learn to fire the muscle you have in the best way possible.
2)Repeated effort - muscle mass. This increases your muscle mass, giving you more to fire someday.
3)Dynamic effort-mostly at the muscle-nerve junction. Changes in your stretch relex, diminishing your golgi inhibition, and other murky voodo stuff.

Now the russians ofter periodized workouts into phases where a particular type of training predominated. Westside decided to conjugate or weave together these phases, so as to do all three types of training combined all the time.

Westside does not require shirted benching. But it does assume powerlifting benching, squatting and deading. Powerlifter benching uses mostly tris and anterior delts and tries to minimize pec involvement as it's the weak link in big weight. Shirts just exaggerate this.

As for how it affects the body. My personal experience is that your tris end up looking like legs. Your quads and chest go down a bit. Shoulders stay the same. And hammies balloon.

You could apply the conjugate training principles to any task. And this is what a coach does for a sport. This is also what zatsiorsky's book is actually about. Westside applied it to powerlifting. You can't apply westside to something other than powerlifting. You can apply conjugate training to other tasks, like the olympic lifts or swimming, and this is done all the time. You can't apply conjugate training to bodybuilding really, as the repeated effort method is all you need to build mass.

However Bompa's book on strength training basically has him arguing for 2-3 week phases of max effort and dynamic effort for the bodybuilder. I'm not sure the argument flies, but it's very interesting.

 

[majutsu]

There are many ways to put a westside program together using basic principles.

For example, my '06 westside routine is: Maj's Westside

Mon - ME upper
- DE lower
4 RE exercise 2 upper/2 lower

Wed - 4 RE exercises 2 upper/2 lower. I save the heavy compound REs for this day.

Fri - ME lower
- DE upper
- 4 RE exercise 2upper/2 lower

I like using things like jump ropes, clap push-ups, medicine ball tosses etc for DE work in addition to traditional westside. I rotate my ME and DE movements every 2 weeks.

The RE movements are kept all 6 weeks. There are 12 RE movements I use, no repeats in a week. My favorite RE movements are: front squats, bulgarian step-ups, standing presses, rows, weighted pull-ups, JM presses, Romanian deads, etc.

My favorite ME movements are: board presses, rack lockouts, GMs, rack pulls, box squats, etc

The RE exercises are done 4 sets of 6 or 3 sets of 10. Basically 25-30 reps. RE movements can be loaded in a single-factor or dual-factor method, including using 5x5 loading for your RE movements.

ME and DE exercises are done as westside recommends.

There is no cookie cutter westside. There is only your westside.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Both will work just fine. WSB is geared more towards powerlifters. Granted, you can tweak it for your own needs, I'd be more inclined to stick to the 5x5 routine. I'm probably a little biased, but that's okay.

You could always throw together a routine of your own, as well. Just aim to increase weight in non-neural rep ranges. It's not a complex process. Maybe utilize some of the WSB exercises, but on a M/W/F split as per the 5x5. Try RDLs, GMs, front squats, variations on the bench press, sub in various olylifts or their variations, keep squatting but maybe play with form a bit to see if you like anything different, sumo or conventional deadlift (depending on what you do now, try the opposite - sumo is great for decreasing shearing forces on the lumbar spine), and maybe switch from pronated to supinated grips on rows & pullups. Hell, I don't see many routines utilizing dips, and they're probably the best chest builder of all. Yep. Dips & Twinkies = Greatness.

There are so many possibilities for a custom routine. Honestly, I'd feel more "at home" with something I tailored to myself, while following certain guidelines. Let's reiterate those:

1) Add weight to the bar in non-neural rep-ranges (3 to 8)
2) Focus on core lifts, throw in few isolation for stubborn bodyparts.
3) Never train more than two days in a row.*
4) Eat enough to gain roughly 1 lb. per week, maybe just shy of that.
5) Get enough rest so you don't break yourself down.
6) Begin lighter than your maxes, ramp up for 2-4 weeks, then try to set new records. Rinse & repeast.

I think I made it more complicated than it needs to be, even there.

If you decide to customize a routine to your goals, let us know. We'll help you figure it out.

 

[Madcow2]

I'd be inclined to try a Westside/conjugate program either next or sometime on the horizon. Get an understanding of how it's laid out and what the moving parts are. You don't need to do it specifically for PL style squats and equipped lifts. This gives you a whole other template and multiple tools in your arsenal. The most important thing to gaining muscle is driving big lifts up and eating enough. Although Westside isn't typically optimized for hypertrophy it certainly gets the most important aspects very right and this is why many find it works a lot better for adding muscle to a frame than most of the dedicated BBing programs out there. Neural gains now support hypertrophy gains later - you see this in beginner lifters and their newbie gains. They adapt quickly with general programs. It is the same in more advanced lifters but the programs are more specialized to drive additional adaptation. Plus, you are doing a lot more than pure ME work. Visit www.elitefts.com and check it out.

 

[fortunatesun]

I've been doing Westside for some time now though I'm neither a powerlifter nor have plans to compete.

Having read majutsu's training journal I can understand his reservations with this approach. However, I believe that where WSB makes a real difference is in terms of GPP (general physical preparedness) and strengthening weaknesses.

Even when I was dong old school BB I always lifted heavy -as I could- so the move to make a max effort was an easy one. The important thing to remember, though, is that a max effort is only one part of the picture. ME helps you realize where you are weak in your total conditioning program, which you bring up through 'assistance' and core work, though it seems to me these are also the means to the end.

I also feel there's nothing wrong with maintaining proportionality. I'm sure competative lifters would scoff at my waste of time, but I'll take the time to work a lagging part and try to maintain a balanced physique.

Overall, I'm just way more physically fit. And, of course, stronger.

 

[Illuminati]

you dont have boards? go to the local lumber store, pick up an 8ft 2x6, cut it into 18" pieces, and either duck tape them together or nail them together. its as simple as that

go with WSB. you will build more strength

I would be squatting Olympic style, not PL style. I'll take a look at some articles. You can hit me at [email protected]

If I do Westside, the one problem is that I don't have boards to do board presses and I don't have a GHR. Could I just bench in a rack with the pins set as close to where I want them as possible?

 

[asdfzxcv]

I think it would depend on your experience level to a degree.I myself have recently contemplated doing a westside routine,but I realised that there is no real need yet as I am still able to make progress using Bill starr's 5x5 linear progression program.From what I gather (and this could be wrong) westside is good if you have a foundation of strength and you wish to strengthen the weak points in your lifts,while the 5x5 is good for building a foundation of general strength.

Personally what I would do is milk the single factor 5x5 if you could still progress on it,then switch to a program such as westside when I couldnt simply add weight to the bar every workout.

 

[fortunatesun]

you dont have boards? go to the local lumber store, pick up an 8ft 2x6, cut it into 18" pieces, and either duck tape them together or nail them together. its as simple as that

go with WSB. you will build more strength

yep, my gym isn't equipped with all the equipment I'd like, either. I still do my GHRs on a roman chair by hooking my ankles, jamming my knees against the pad, and clutching a weight to my chest. Same with reverse-hyperextensions, just reversed position and dumbell between my ankles. It's kind of fun using your imagination to figure out what you can do with limited equipment.