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I'm done with an 8 week 5 x 5 training cycle

StRoNg_WoN

StRoNg_WoN

High End Bro
Platinum
In 8 weeks...

Bench: +25lbs
Squat: +20lbs
Deadlift: +20lbs


My bench has always sucked pretty bad... and I had a bad shoulder @ the start... but it's pretty good now... I think I might start using chains/bands/boards/ just to mix it up, but I don't know if I can do boards myself... we'll see...

The Squat wasn't too too bad... but I might steer away from Olympic squats and start doing wider stance box stuff... I like that it hammers my hips, glues, and hams more...

The deadlift is good... but I haven't been pulling as much as I know I can... just because I want to keep my form good, and tend to lose grip strength... maybe I'll try going a little heaver to see where I'm at...

BUT.... NOW I feel like I'm at a cross roads... I do enjoy the typical BB style hypertrophy training, and also train for aesthetic reasons as well... so I don't know if a full on WSB style training scheme would be good here... what are YOUR opinions? I think my diet will dictate how I look more so then my training method.. but who knows... Perhaps I can do a WSB/Body Builder kinda hybrid training? Stick with the classic:

Monday - ME - Squat/DL/Good Morning

Wednesday - ME - Bench

Friday - DE - Squat

Sunday - DE - Bench

But hit triples rather then singles... and add a few sets of extra work... for volume?

I'm just bored of the typical 5 x 5 style training.. and what to change things up... What sort of training schemes do you guys rotate?
 
Interesting... I was thinking about something that involved more of a BB style workout though.. rather then just a oly lifting/power lifting kinda thing...

Maybe I'll switch to doing full body for a while... see how that goes...
 
5x5 isn't a style of workout. It's a set plan to practice frequency balanced with rest and force you to ramp your weights up progressively.... to stop people from going in the gym and just "doing stuff".

If you understand that you need to gradually put weight on the bar and recover when you need a rest, then you can build your own program around 5x5's principles but with exercises that you enjoy.
 
You could also change the routine to a fluffy 3x8 or 3x10 type. Use the same principles of progressive overload but change your weights accordingly.
 
Sounds good... I was thinking... I will still get some hypertrophy from the westside method. The difference is that what I'll get is much stronger tendons along the way.. I also won't get weird joint pains... you get myofibril density and growth as opposed to sacroplasmic growth. In other words it's the contractile proteins that grow as opposed to the plasma inside the cells. Correct??

Plus.. after a 12 week westside plan.. I can always go back to a hypertrophy phase.

The issue I have is that without some more serious strength gains.. I don't think I will gain any mass that I'll actually keep...

My bet is that if I do a 12 week Westside I'll likely get another 25 lbs on each of my lifts... or more... and I'll be injury free... and probably 5 solid pounds bigger.. that I can then take into a hypertrophy phase. I train natural... so extra lbs and more strength would be great!

I've attached my plan so far.... (for 3 weeks) lemme know if you guys think I'm on the right track...
 
Once I max out the single factor 5x5, I will probably ensue a path similar to yours. Im a natty little guy, so every pound of strength and muscle count big time.
 
Anyone care to take a look/comment on my training schedule that I've attached?
 
+25lbs on the bench, and +20 on the squat, and +20lbs on the deadlift.....honestly, I think you'd be an absolute idiot to switch ''programs''.

Not that there is anything wrong with WSB, but I don't understand the trend of guys trying 5x5 per the Madcow site and then 8 weeks later wanting something new like HST or WSB despite making enormous gains on what they were doing.

The '5x5' is just a good way to train, I say run with it and keep eating, along the way there are bumps, then you adjust and in 5 years your routine will look nothing like whats on the web site, but anybody who knows how to train will be able to look at it and see what you're doing.....basically, thats another way of saying do what you're doing and it'll click and you'll know how to "train yourself" without looking for a program.

If you're bored, just suck it up and go into the gym with a blue collar mindset, the progress is what matters, not doing stuff that's new and fun.

Chains, bands, and boards serve a very narrow purpose, they aren't to mix it up for shits and giggles....if you're still making big progress, why overcomplicate?? Plus, boards for a raw lifter are not going to help in my opinion.
 
I was doing well on it... and things seemed to have tappered off... I've switched around my diet, and made a few other changes... but wanted to just try something different for a while... WSB seemed like an interesting change, and something I've always wanted to try... so I figured I'd give it a go for 12 weeks...
 
StRoNg_WoN said:
I was doing well on it... and things seemed to have tappered off... I've switched around my diet, and made a few other changes... but wanted to just try something different for a while... WSB seemed like an interesting change, and something I've always wanted to try... so I figured I'd give it a go for 12 weeks...
Click to expand...


Still a piss poor idea. There is nothing wrong with WSB, but these things aren't 12 week get big quick schemes, nothing is. Training and growing size and strength is a systematic, long-term process.

If you've tapered off, make a substitute. Change a rep scheme. Or, what is likely to be the simple fix, just reset the weights a little and re-ramp.

The only reason ''programs'' are for 8 weeks or 12 weeks or whatever are two reasons: 1) It's a published program that a coach cleaned up and made nice and tight for people to follow and it represents one phase of an entire year or so of training, or 2) It is just simply a way to get people consistent long enough to actually see progress and also to get them to intelligently plan weight selection over the long haul so they aren't plateaued on week 2.

I'm not trying to discourage, but you asked for unput and I have to give my honest input. Keep going with this and make the occasional adjustment and the occasional mistake and in about 1-2 years, you'll get it, it'll click and you'll know how to train yourself, and when you see a ''critique my routine'' thread, you'll want to put your fist through the computer screen, lol.

And.....if you're bored, I always say play pick-up basketball or something, this isn't recess or playtime, lol.....get a blue collar mindset and go to work in the gym.

Where are you now? height/weight and bench/row/squat
 
Ya.. I do see what you're saying.. however I do actually 'enjoy' the gym as well... and just thought it would be a fun, or interesting way to switch things up... I guess I could have used another term other then 'bored'... I would just like to know when it's 'ok' to switch programs for a while, or why doing this, or something else is 'piss poor' or 'wrong'... I also realize that if I'm making gains, I shouldn't 'fix' what isn't 'broken'... but I've decided to try training the WSB way for a bit... more so for curiosity, and to see the difference in methods... I'm at a comfortable size/shape right now... and have always been fascinated with power, and numbers... I wanted input on the WSB program I put together, and whether or not it made sense...

However I do appreciate yours, and everyone else's input... thanks guys..
 
I "hear" what BiggT and others have said. Too many guys look for a magic program instead of learning the principles behind a program and developing the ability to train themselves. Instead they jump from program to program. I tend to think it's better to run something at least a couple of times, making your own adjustments and learning from them. I will say that there could be some benefit in running a different program if you approach it as an opportunity to learn how your body responds to a different approach, and not just as a search for the ideal routine.

I'm not an expert on Westside by any stretch, but I think that unless you're an advanced PLer you probably would want to run one of the versions made more for athletes and BBers than the original. Reportedly, the DE days tend to benefit mostly the really strong guys and you'd probably be better off with RE days.

However, if you'd consider continuing with a 5x5 variation, but setup to allow more variety, I liked the routine that BiggT posted recently in his log. It might give you some ideas for how to modify a 5x5 to address some of the things you didn't like and keeping some of the principles that have been successful for you.

I think he's doing more of a dual factor approach, and his routine is set up more like an advanced 5x5, but I bet it could be modified a bit to suit someone who has been doing Linear 5x5 but doesn't quite need heavy DF emphasis yet.

Just a thought. Maybe BiggT or someone else will comment on whether that might make some sense.
 
I don't understand where I mentioned that I'm looking for a magic pill, ideal 'Routine' or quick fix... I've been training on and off for roughly 10 years... have used anabolics and have not in the past... have done Needsize's 5x5 as well as the Madcow 5x5, a couple of times each... I've tried HIT, GVT, and just about every other thing out there... Except for HST... The WSB idea was just something I wanted to try, and learn from... to see if it would actually help me gain more strength on the 3 core lifts... (regardless as to whether or not the current training style I employed was still 'working' or 'ok) I'm willing to put in the work... and was just asking for advice on WSB, and how it's to be performed... I asked this over in the powerlifting thread... but I don't think anyone ever goes there anymore... lol

K all around though boys.. I do appreciate everthing.. ! :)
 
You've been working out for roughly 10 years and you've just added 25lb to your bench and 20lb to both your squat and deadlift in 8 weeks of the 5x5?

As Biggt said, where are you now? height/weight and bench/row/squat
 
If you want to try WSB then give it a whirl. At some point, though, if you want to be making progress then you have to settle on some system that is geared towards making making progress. You'll need to settle into something that's designed to give you consistent advancement.

WSB is one such program that you can run forever to make progress but many try WSB and come away highly dissatisfied and thinking that they've just wasted three months. The whole tenet of WSB is identifying your weaknesses and working to cure them. There is no WSB program just as there is no 5x5 program. You can think of Madcow's 5x5 programs in the same way that lifters often make Tate's 9-week intro their primer for WSB. It's a guide to the template.

If you do attack WSB then get an idea in your head of what your goals are from running it or, alternatively, plan to set aside a good six months to a year to WSB as you work to identify what your short-comings are so that you can focus on them. The various ME/DE and rotations of WSB are secondary to finding and hitting your weaknesses to turn them into strengths to improve your one-rep-max lifts.

Anyway, I'm with the rest here. You've just made some good-looking gains on a 5x5 run. Why not stick with the plan? Maybe you just want to shop around for a while?

If volume is something that really agrees with you, you could give the Korte 3x3 a whirl. Again, some have done well with it, others have felt they wasted three months.
 
Also, WSB's methods were kind of employed out of necessity to help world-class lifters add to lifts that were already some of the best ever done in their weight classes.....If you walked into WSB in Columbus, OH and told them you used simple linear progression for 8 weeks and added 25 to the bench and 20 each to the squat and dead, that's 65lbs to your raw total in 8 weeks of just adding weight to the bar, lol, they would sure as shit have you stay away from bands and boards and speed work and rotating exercises......none of those guys would do that either if they could just go in and add a pair of 2.5's every week on end and address a sticking point by re-ramping the weight or subbing push press for strict press for a few weeks.

The method isn't any different than 5x5 in the grand scheme of things, it's just a way to keep progressing when everything else won't work because you're at your limits pretty much.

If you really just want to see what it's about, then who the hell is gonna stop you? I'd suggest you google Joe Defranco and at least check out how he modifies a lot of typical WSB stuff for athletes or check out the WSB for BBs as mentioned. IMO though, you REALLY need to know what you're doing. You can't take qoute/unquote WSB methods in isolation. For example, a raw bencher who does board presses will have a big board press and that's about it, lol. Somebody who can add 5 lbs a week hammering the same lift with linear progression is wasting valuable time rotating lifts every 3 weeks, etc etc

Some guy once posted a question for jimWendler regarding WSb-type training, and he was trying to identify his ''weak point'' and he said his bench was 315, and Wendler told him his whole body was the weak point and basically tried to steer him towards a more linear-focused approach.....just food for thought. Again, I don't know you from Adam, but 70lbs on a 3 lift total in 8 weeks leads me to believe you're nowhere near your genetic limits (advanced), despite the amount of years you've spent hitting the weights.
 
BiggT said:
Also, WSB's methods were kind of employed out of necessity to help world-class lifters add to lifts that were already some of the best ever done in their weight classes.....If you walked into WSB in Columbus, OH and told them you used simple linear progression for 8 weeks and added 25 to the bench and 20 each to the squat and dead, that's 65lbs to your raw total in 8 weeks of just adding weight to the bar, lol, they would sure as shit have you stay away from bands and boards and speed work and rotating exercises......none of those guys would do that either if they could just go in and add a pair of 2.5's every week on end and address a sticking point by re-ramping the weight or subbing push press for strict press for a few weeks.

The method isn't any different than 5x5 in the grand scheme of things, it's just a way to keep progressing when everything else won't work because you're at your limits pretty much.

If you really just want to see what it's about, then who the hell is gonna stop you? I'd suggest you google Joe Defranco and at least check out how he modifies a lot of typical WSB stuff for athletes or check out the WSB for BBs as mentioned. IMO though, you REALLY need to know what you're doing. You can't take qoute/unquote WSB methods in isolation. For example, a raw bencher who does board presses will have a big board press and that's about it, lol. Somebody who can add 5 lbs a week hammering the same lift with linear progression is wasting valuable time rotating lifts every 3 weeks, etc etc

Some guy once posted a question for jimWendler regarding WSb-type training, and he was trying to identify his ''weak point'' and he said his bench was 315, and Wendler told him his whole body was the weak point and basically tried to steer him towards a more linear-focused approach.....just food for thought. Again, I don't know you from Adam, but 70lbs on a 3 lift total in 8 weeks leads me to believe you're nowhere near your genetic limits (advanced), despite the amount of years you've spent hitting the weights.
Click to expand...

This is an amazing post, because many PLers or aspiring PLers don't even understand this. They see their heros/idols/mentors/whatever using bands and chains and want to replicate that while they are trying to get their 225 bench going.

And that is OK, it is a plan and it will lead to progression, but it just doesn't seem like it is the most effective, efficient path at that point in their lifting careers.

I don't *know* this, but I've *experienced* it because linear progression is working for me as a beginner on his way to intermediate, so why complicate things.
 
BiggT's final point should not be ignored. If your numbers are still in the 450/350/500 range or lower then you probably don't have enough basic meat on your bones yet to make WSB worthwhile.
 
I didn't see a link from the training sticky to the WS4BB version, but here is a link to a modified version of it on another site. Like I said, I'm not a WS4BB expert but I know that the guy who wrote that one up is sound, and there's also a link to Defranco's site. One reason that they modify Defranco's version is that he's mostly working with athletes and his version has only 1 lower body day per week, as most of his clients are already hammering their lower body recovery with the training for their sport.

Good point above by BiggT about boards, lift rotation, etc. Mostly that's for fairly advanced guys with specific goals centered around competitive lifting. So taking something like a WS4BB routine, and adapting it for an intermediate you wind up with a well-designed upper/lower routine with some strength-oriented work and some hypertrophy-oriented work.
 
You could try a slightly higher rep range for a while. Build the strength, then build muscle by being able to do more reps with a heavier weight. After I gain strength I try to up the reps for around 8-12 on most things for a couple months to try to get some hypertrophy going on.
 
Thanks a lot guys! VERY VERY good points all around...

It's SO much nicer to have a board of experts, rather then just a few people here and there at the gym that 'know' stuff..

Thanks again...
 
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