I love article everytime I read it

[bran987]

it just makes so much sense.. I'm sure a lot of you have seen it before.. but everytime I start to get off on some tangent I make sure to read it again.

Sensible Training - A Logical Approach to Size and Strength

 

[IronandGravity]

Good article so far. I wonder who he mentions training with toward the beginning.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I like it a lot. Reminds me of DC training principles, which I agree with.

 

[Tweakle]

dr ken is the man. Anyone who can squat 400 for 23 reps at about 160bw deserves respect

 

[TheOak84]

IM CONFUsed, waS THAT TRAINING 3 TIMES a week? how did he increaSE WEIGHT?

 

[bran987]

which part are you confused about?

 

[b fold the truth]

Not a big Dr. Ken fan. I've met him and he didn't look like he even lifted weights. Not really the poster child for a Size building program...

B True

 

[bran987]

Not a big Dr. Ken fan. I've met him and he didn't look like he even lifted weights. Not really the poster child for a Size building program...

B True

awwww... too bad

 

[b fold the truth]

awwww... too bad

You may want to check where this topic is being covered over on www.irontrybe.com. People are going into more depth on it there as well.

B True

 

[bran987]

that's freaking weird some guy posted it over there the same day.. I've never even been to that site before. I haven't read that article in like a year and just came back across it.

looks like they REALLY don't like it though

 

[TheOak84]

which part are you confused about?

about how many times a week, and increaSING THE WEIGHT.

 

[bran987]

about how many times a week, and increaSING THE WEIGHT.

he advocates a full body routine 2 to 3 times per week, increasing either the weight you use or the number of repetitions each workout, utilizing only core exercises and no more than 1-2 all out working sets per exercise.

 

[guldukat]

Not a big Dr. Ken fan. I've met him and he didn't look like he even lifted weights. Not really the poster child for a Size building program...

B True

That's true. He's what, 160? 165?

In fairness, Kevin Tolbert and a few others got quite big training Leistner-style. Strong too, of course...some reports of Tolbert's feats of strength are almost hard to believe.

That makes it tempting to conclude Dr. Ken's lack of size is a genetic thing, but there's a problem with that explanation: in the HIT FAQ at Cyberpump!, Robert Spector said Ken was once a "solid 230 and was photographed balancing a glass of water on his chest"--words to that effect.

From what I know of Mr. Spector, I'm inclined to believe him...but it is very strange that Ken's so much smaller these days. Does he not eat, or what? Was he just really fat at 230? :-/

I don't get it. He's still quite strong *shrugs* He should have SOME size; it's not as if he's 75 years old, after all.

One of these days I'll have to ask Dr. Ken about this. It'll be hard to find a delicate way to ask "why are you so small?" though

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I still agree with the idea that strength gains = heavier weight = hypertrophy. Maybe there are exceptions, but progression is progression. It is odd, why he's so small, but he's powerful and that method would surely put size on people. Maybe not the optimal way to do it, but it will work. Just like anything else.

 

[b fold the truth]

Well, I don't consider him to be powerful. If he can squat 407 x 23 then he should be able to squat way over 800. I mean...I can squat 800 yet can't squat 407 x 23.

I'd say he is just in good shape. It still confuses me how he preaches on and on about these methods yet it doesn't really seem to work much for him. I'm serious though...I stood in an elevator with him and his shirts (probably a size Medium at best) hung off of him. What gives?

Aren't these methods FOR the hardgainer who is drug-free?

I joined Cyberpump a few years ago when Dr. Ken was a Mod there. People laughed me off the board for a while because I trained semi-WSB instead of HIT/Dr. Ken, etc... Strange though...I didn't train like them yet I was bigger AND stronger than anyone else there. Why weren't my methods good enough for them?

B True

 

[guldukat]

Well, I don't consider him to be powerful. If he can squat 407 x 23 then he should be able to squat way over 800. I mean...I can squat 800 yet can't squat 407 x 23.

I know what you mean. I'd guess it's specificity at work: he's trained with high-rep squats for so long, he's just gotten really good at them. I don't want to call him a one-trick pony, but it's certainly true he'd be out of his element squatting really heavy. He's said that himself before I think.

I'd say he is just in good shape. It still confuses me how he preaches on and on about these methods yet it doesn't really seem to work much for him. I'm serious though...I stood in an elevator with him and his shirts (probably a size Medium at best) hung off of him. What gives?

Aren't these methods FOR the hardgainer who is drug-free?

LOL. Yeah

Do you know if there's any truth to Spector's idea that Leistner used to be bigger? Maybe Rob was operating from hearsay there.

I joined Cyberpump a few years ago when Dr. Ken was a Mod there. People laughed me off the board for a while because I trained semi-WSB instead of HIT/Dr. Ken, etc... Strange though...I didn't train like them yet I was bigger AND stronger than anyone else there. Why weren't my methods good enough for them?

B True

Sorry to hear that man. I can't imagine them being rude to someone as nice and open as you are.


Wait, I take that back. I can imagine that. HIT-oriented crowds can be incredibly dogmatic.

As I see it, HITers still outcasts on many boards. "Guru" Chad Nicholls' bile-filled BBing forums are a perfect example (and on a semi-related note, are enough to turn me off bodybuilding for good).

So, when they all get together in one place and you're on HIT turf, it's "pay-back time," and they pick on anyone training differently.

Pretty sad, isn't it? These guys become what they hate most.

That reminds me of something I think happened at the Garage Gym (?) forum years ago. Shortly after it was first available on the internet, a buddy of mine said something critical of Dr. Ken's 23 rep squat clip. It was a very minor thing, a nitpick at best, and was worded quite respectfully as I recall.

Within a couple days, about two dozen ass-kissers still jumped all over him for it. You'd think my friend had sullied the name of God Himself!

I think Leistner's neat and his advice definitely has its place, but pretending anyone's above even the most polite criticism...ugh.

I can't hold Dr. Ken accountable for his legions, but I can say this: training methods, like politics and religion, are touchy subjects, and best not broached at all save in the best of company

-Sean

 

[Tweakle]

yeah dr ken used to be bigger, there was a pic of him on cyberpump before they went pay-per-view. but he was a young guy, using gear and eating a LOT.

Cyberpump forums may be better now, I can't say as they never sent me my password (that was $10 well spent lol) but they were just a bunch of angry little underachievers last time I checked them out.. I think I remember your first post there b, they were dissing some strongman or strongwoman? It was a long time ago

 

[guldukat]

yeah dr ken used to be bigger, there was a pic of him on cyberpump before they went pay-per-view. but he was a young guy, using gear and eating a LOT.

Now that you mention it, that rings a bell...was he shirtless and standing in a kitchen by chance? Maybe he was holding a cooking pot?

(If that is the picture, he was muscular but definitely not BIG, big I'd guess he weighed around 190-200.)

Cyberpump forums may be better now, I can't say as they never sent me my password (that was $10 well spent lol) but they were just a bunch of angry little underachievers last time I checked them out.. I think I remember your first post there b, they were dissing some strongman or strongwoman? It was a long time ago

Damn. Sorry you didn't get your password That stinks...they must've not wanted you coming in there to show them up, though

 

[b fold the truth]

I know what you mean. I'd guess it's specificity at work: he's trained with high-rep squats for so long, he's just gotten really good at them. I don't want to call him a one-trick pony, but it's certainly true he'd be out of his element squatting really heavy. He's said that himself before I think.


Do you know if there's any truth to Spector's idea that Leistner used to be bigger? Maybe Rob was operating from hearsay there.

I read his articles in MILO when they come out, but they all sound about the same. They all start out..."back in the day in New York, me and my buddy would sit up in the loft and think of this new program to pump up our lats, bring up our outer chest, and really fry our hamstrings for the next 2 months..." and it is just the same thing over and over. I always read it though...so what does that tell you about me...lol

Sorry to hear that man. I can't imagine them being rude to someone as nice and open as you are.


Wait, I take that back. I can imagine that. HIT-oriented crowds can be incredibly dogmatic.

I didn't know what to think when they were dogging me out. Their opinion means just as much as mine, but sometimes it gets me when people who can't do 1/4 of what I can put down the methods that I have found to be effective for me. One reason why I lurk here and www.irontrybe.com is because the members may not fully agree with my methods or myself on theirs...but we CAN agree that there are good and bad points about both. I mean...how can I argue with YOUR progress?

I used to argue with DC and Debasser, but could I argue with HIS progress? Nope...sure couldn't. Results are results...that is for certain.

As I see it, HITers still outcasts on many boards. "Guru" Chad Nicholls' bile-filled BBing forums are a perfect example (and on a semi-related note, are enough to turn me off bodybuilding for good).

So, when they all get together in one place and you're on HIT turf, it's "pay-back time," and they pick on anyone training differently.
-Sean

Yes, they do come off like most religions. They preach kindness but beat you in the head and curse you when you are not in total agreeance with them. I've always believed that God would be a loving person no matter what, and Churches should ALWAYS be the same way. If you are trying to spread the word of your training style...accept others and look to find positives in both. That is how we make friends as well as how we learn in life and progress in our training.

Even I have learned from Debasser.

On another note...I'm not sure I ever heard Dr. Ken say a cross word to anyone. I did hear him swear like a sailor in the elevator that day though...lol. Well, I live in Kentucky and it isn't proper for an intellectual person to swear (how I was brought up) so a word here and there isn't actually thought highy of...lol. I would like to sit down with him, have him look at my goals and future contests, and collaborate on a possible training plan. I'm sure I'd learn something.

Nobody is around weights for 40+ years without A LOT of valuable knowledge.

B True

 

[bran987]

wow.....

I guess I will rethink progression and increasings weight/and/or reps with the same weight over and extended period of time from now on... maybe I just need a lot of volume lifting whatever I can for as many times as I can lift it as long as I have a volume where I am completely exhausted.

glad I brought this up for discussion, I really thought he knew what he was talking about just from reading that but you guys just ripped him to shreds in an extremely polite manner.

 

[b fold the truth]

wow.....

I guess I will rethink progression and increasings weight/and/or reps with the same weight over and extended period of time from now on... maybe I just need a lot of volume lifting whatever I can for as many times as I can lift it as long as I have a volume where I am completely exhausted.

glad I brought this up for discussion, I really thought he knew what he was talking about just from reading that but you guys just ripped him to shreds in an extremely polite manner.

Heck no man...my point is this...

Try everything and do what works for YOU.

Dr. Ken obviously loves training like this, which keeps him training.

Always re-evaluate your goals and modify.

Be the first to prove me wrong man...make it work for you. Come up with a hybrid program off of his and tell us what is working for you. Maybe you can learn something from it and help others in the future.

B True