HYPOTHYRODISM from T3 --> Help !!!!

[junk]

Ok I couldn't resist waiting for the bloodtest results. I just had to write this post.

I took T3 (tapered up and down slowly) for up to 37.5mcg (this dose only 3 days) and went down slowly (25mcg, 12.5mcg, 6mcg)
I only took T3 for a month which is considered very safe. But I already read posts here that showed sensitive users that hurt themselves from low dosage (rare cases which do exist)

A month AFTER I stopped the T3 while continuing my cycle (Sust & Fina) I started feeling VERY bad. I wrote a post down here and some good bro asked if I make a Thyroid panel blood test. I made all kind of blood tests but they were useless because they were made DURING my T3 cycle.

I took all sorts of shit before (Fina, Sust, Bromo, ECA, Clen) and nothing happened. T3 is the only new shit I took this time.

I never thought as Thyroid being my problem because I stopped the T3 a whole month ago, so I thought I should have gotten the symptoms back then and not only a month later.

Anyway, I started reading about the symptoms of Hypothyrodism and got a PERFECT clearly 100% matching symptoms:

1) Feeling cold all the time while others aren't. That's the number was warning side: You see, I am a type of guy that is always feeling hot, NOT cold.I even go skying with a t-shirt! To emphesize more, all my friends are always cold to death and freezing while I'm actually turning the car's aircondition on! I was always SUPER hot person.
NOW Since 4 days I am ALWAYS feeling EXTREMELY cold! I am going to sleep with 3 sweathshirts and turning the car's airconditioning but this time to the Hotting warming button (I never pressed this button in my life!! It's the opposite of me!)

2) Feeling lethargy. Like even if I sleep 3 hours during the day, I wake up feeling 'heavy' like my leg muscles don't want to move or walk. VERY strange feeling, I never felt in my whole life. Walking becomes a pain in the ass and can almost make me cry since it's so mentally hard for me.

3) Feeling depressed. While actually good financial things happened to me in the last few days among other things, I actually feel worse than before when I really had terrible problems. Rationally I should feel much better now (If I didn't have this shitty probable Thyroid problem)

4) Involuntary muscle cramps(I don't know if it's considered cramps), my quads (the lateralis head) is 'jumping' all day long and particularely at night. This has never happened to me to this extreme before.

5) Loose interests very fast with persons around me.

6) Have memory problems you wouldn't believe.

These sensations I am describing are hard to describe, as it's not like feeling sick with a flu or a virus or something, it's a different kind of feeling. A much worse one. I don't want to workout, but I force myself.

Hours after reading and realizing I probably have thyroid problem, I just went for a private blood tests of T3,T4 and TSH. I should have the results ready by Sunday morning and I am already searching for a private Endocrynologist MD that could meet me ASAP after the blood tests arrive, because I must be ready for a Thyroid problem (in the worest case I will just cancel the session with the doc). I just can't stand the feeling. It's horrible. I cannot stand and afford myself a single more day feeling like I do right now. It's horrible, I can't stand it anymore.

I have questions for Thyroid experts (probably the ones that have already been in my shoes) :

1) How much time after you stopped taking T3 did you notice the problems?

2) From the minute you walked out of the Endocrinologyst office with prescribed medication (T3 or T4) how long did it take for you to feel 100% again?

3) Do you take the medication for life?

4) Does your metabolims stays like shit or does it come back just like it was before taking the medications? I mean, is it always a bit lower than before ?

If anyone experienced or knowlegble can help a million thanks in advance.

 

[Stillgoing]

In all seriousness, you might try posting this on the women's board. Thyroid problems in women are EXTREMELY COMMON. My wife included. I don't know how many males will have had this problem, but, I guarantee women will have. They may be able to help.

 

[DaMan]

In all seriousness, you might try posting this on the women's board. Thyroid problems in women are EXTREMELY COMMON. My wife included. I don't know how many males will have had this problem, but, I guarantee women will have. They may be able to help.

Well, she refers to herself as "a guy", so I'm confused because those are women's dosages.

 

[Miracle Man]

Junk, do not panic, what your experiencing is normal for 1st timer T3 user. I have done coutless T3 cycles and everytime my thyroid bounced back to normal range. After a T3 cycle, your thyroid will not shut down, it will recover slowely to normal range, unless you have thyroid disease. Fina will also surpress T3 levels in your body. I hope you did your blood work at least 5 days after you stoped your T3 intake. If not, your T3 blood levels will not be accurate. See what your T4 levels say. If your TSH number is low, that means you have Hyperactive thyroid. Your pituitary gland is working hard to slow your thyroid down. Relax, wait to see what the test results say. See and Endocrinologist have him give you a phsical exam, he should physically examin your thyroid for nodules. Sometime T4 medication is needed for life sometimes not. I would not tell him about your gear usage unless he will not documented in his medical file, you do not want that. Eat some carbs to stimulate the thyroid. Alot of times that helps alot. Cardio helps as well in stimulating everything. Good Luck.

 

[junk]

TO DaMan: I am a guy not a woman. But I posted my question on the women board as well. I know these dosage are low but I've read searching through Elite archives that in some quite rare cases, people mess up their Thyroid from low dosages and short durations due to extreme sensitivity to the drug.

TO Megadeth1: As I wrote, I already ended my T3 cycle part a whole month ago, and the blood test was done yesterday (Results will be posted on Sunday). What's very annoying is the incredbile shitty feeling and I have no strength to lift weights, I can't bare it. Also, you mention the carbs thing. It's a double edged sword. One side may help recover the Thyroid, but in the other side it may cause extreme fat deposits due the fact that the metabolism is low. Since I've just finished my Cutting cycle, this can be very counterproductive to me, as bringing back a 2-3lbs of fat is certainly out of the question. I am doing Cardio everyday 60 minutes first thing in the morning to speed up metabolism and in fear of not gaining fat when T levels might be extremely low.

 

[Miracle Man]

Ok, your on top of everything. Hang in there.

 

[Texas Guns]

Well, as most here know, a few years ago I had major shutdown health problems to my T3 useage. So my take on your dilema is less scientific, and more from my personal experience....also take into account that I am female. I was on a moderately higher extended cycle off and on but did not taper down correctly and screwed up my thyroid in the process.

The symptoms you described bring back memories for me. I remember even blacking out at work and not having the strength at times to even turn over in bed!! And alot of my symptoms would kick in shortly after I ate. There is no way to describe that feeling, because I had never experienced that type of lethargy before.

Once I went to my doctor, I made the mistake of telling him the entire truth....so he refused to put me on any type of medication because I was an "addiction/overdose risk" because I *gasp, gasp* have used steroids and T3 to lose body fat!!! OMG!! Well he put me on what he called "extreme vitamin therapy" which was a high doseage prescription multivitamin and gave me a big lecture...I apparently picked the wrong doctor.

It was not until I went on a cycle of Primo six months later that I finally got my thyroid kicked back into gear and manipulating my diet to create more energy also helped.

My confusion in your situation is that your doseage was not so much as to cause extreme damage to your thyroid and if you tapered down slowly enough, your thyroid should have been able to pick back up it's normal production. I think things will get back to normal on its own with just a little bit of time. Also do whatever you can to raise your metabolism naturally...whether it be through your diet or activity level. Also check to see if there are other elements that might be adding to your fatigue level...like toxins etc. As we all know, things like drinking great amounts of purified water only and taking plenty of quality antioxidents will also help. Just give it time and when your body says to rest then REST DAMNIT!!!

Those more experienced than I might be able to answer whether your Fina doseage might also be contributing to your symptoms, but since you said this is not your first time using it, that may not be a contributing factor.

Anyway, keep us informed when you get the results of your blood work...post the results so some of our great scientific minds can give you some feedback.

 

[junk]

Well, as most here know, a few years ago I had major shutdown health problems to my T3 useage. So my take on your dilema is less scientific, and more from my personal experience....also take into account that I am female. I was on a moderately higher extended cycle off and on but did not taper down correctly and screwed up my thyroid in the process.

The symptoms you described bring back memories for me. I remember even blacking out at work and not having the strength at times to even turn over in bed!! And alot of my symptoms would kick in shortly after I ate. There is no way to describe that feeling, because I had never experienced that type of lethargy before.

Once I went to my doctor, I made the mistake of telling him the entire truth....so he refused to put me on any type of medication because I was an "addiction/overdose risk" because I *gasp, gasp* have used steroids and T3 to lose body fat!!! OMG!! Well he put me on what he called "extreme vitamin therapy" which was a high doseage prescription multivitamin and gave me a big lecture...I apparently picked the wrong doctor.

It was not until I went on a cycle of Primo six months later that I finally got my thyroid kicked back into gear and manipulating my diet to create more energy also helped.

My confusion in your situation is that your doseage was not so much as to cause extreme damage to your thyroid and if you tapered down slowly enough, your thyroid should have been able to pick back up it's normal production. I think things will get back to normal on its own with just a little bit of time. Also do whatever you can to raise your metabolism naturally...whether it be through your diet or activity level. Also check to see if there are other elements that might be adding to your fatigue level...like toxins etc. As we all know, things like drinking great amounts of purified water only and taking plenty of quality antioxidents will also help. Just give it time and when your body says to rest then REST DAMNIT!!!

Those more experienced than I might be able to answer whether your Fina doseage might also be contributing to your symptoms, but since you said this is not your first time using it, that may not be a contributing factor.

Anyway, keep us informed when you get the results of your blood work...post the results so some of our great scientific minds can give you some feedback.

Thank you Texas Guns, people like you are the ones making this board so great and helpful, I am in this board for years. (was under a different nickname). I appreciate it.

Aside for that, I am currently looking desperately into a private endocrinology so I may tell him everything (paying nicely without any insurance involvment nothing will be written in any medical record. I am also making tremendous efforts to finding an endocrinologyst that is bodybuilding aware (hard to find).
Did you really suffer SIX whole months feeling like crap? I mean, that feeling I have is unbearable. I feel like my legs don't want to move and like you said, I don't even have the strength to turn over in bad! or wake up for a pee or water drinking. I do take a lot of vitamins and stuff, running 45-60 every single day to speed up metabolism. But I just can't stand thinking I will have to suffer like that for more than a few days (Six months? Are you crazy? I won't be able to train good for so long? No way for me).

 

[Texas Guns]

I was an extreme case....I really don't think your comeback will take long at all. I think it would do your body some good and maybe help your energy levels to actually decrease the amount of time you are spending running everyday. You apparently are using up energy stores that your body doesn't even have right now. Listen to your body right now......can't tell you how important that is! Until you are up and running again, try to adjust your workouts so as to maintain what you have instead of continuing your heavy kick ass regimine. It will be better for you in the longrun to be able to pick up where you left off than having to start from scratch.

 

[NubianBeauty]

One word... PROLACTIN (from Fina) Are you taking Dostinex or Bromocriptine?

 

[junk]

One word... PROLACTIN (from Fina) Are you taking Dostinex or Bromocriptine?

ONE WORD: YES I am taking Bromo (I tried to stop it only when I noticed the problems and thought they were from the bromo but they are not. positive about that) Anyway it's not the Bromo nor does it prolactin. Sorry...

 

[DepressiveJuice]

bummer. i ran T3 for over four months and went up to 150mcg/day. three weeks after my T3 cycle, my TSH levels were back to normal. similar thing happens after an AAS cycle. my libido only goes down for three days only

 

[junk]

Mmmm.. that's interesting..I did'nt know Prolactin can cause Hypothyrodism. I'm taking bromo every day, but I did stop it for 2 days when I ran out of stock. I ususally take 1.25 in the morning and 1.25 in the evening.. I'm on 150mg Fina EOD. Maybe that's not enought... I did stop the Bromo (thinking it may have caused me the problems) and returned to it two days ago though.

I am taking tonight before sleeping 1.5 tab of Bromo (2.5mg+1.25mg) and tomorrow morning again 2.5mg in the morning.. That's interesting thought... I wish I was told that before making the blood tests so I could also ask for prolactin. But I guess the TSH, T3, T4 are enought for now. And bumping the bromo to 3.75mg a day to see if things are getting better.

Is it too late? Should I up the bromo even more? Say 5mg ED to see if things are getting better? May this be reversible?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Posts like this upset me greatly. When will you people wake up? junk, this isn't meant as an insult because I feel for you and I'm sure you didnt know any better. But you have to be a fucking moron to take T3.

Has anyone ever kept the weight off from using it? No. It's a temporary fix that might cause a a very permanent problem. But of course, there's always the goon who comes on and says" I do it all the time and never had a problem." Stop listening to these idiots!

There are herbs and nutrients, notably selenium, iodine and 7 keto dhea which may help. But if you're hypo, you're on therepy for life. They'll prescribe synthroid but ArmourThyroid is better. Sorry bro. But don't start taking more drugs based on the guess work of strangers. See an endo and get fixed. And use your experience to warn others.

 

[Latamier]

I think it was me that suggested a thyroid panel for you. Dont sweat it bro.We have had some patients that have had severe thyroid problems from doing similar things as you have. Most of the times, it will take a few months to resolve itself. Once you mess with your thyroid it takes it a while to get over it and resume normal function. As far as paying through the nose and not filing under your insurance, dont worry about it. Everything that transpires between you and your Dr cannot be released to ANYBODY. Not even your insurance company with out a written medical release form from you. Also, as far as finding a Dr who is Steroid Friendly, try this little tip that has worked for me, and now that I know who they are, I can refer other people to them as well. Try to find an Endocrinologist that is younger, or fresh out of his residency. This was once thought to be a bad idea, but in all actuality, here is a guy looking for new patients and trying to make a name for himself, and also, being that he is fresh out of residency, he is going to be more up to date on NEWER findings and treatment than the older guys. Shoot me a PM if you need any more help or have any more questions.

 

[pumped55]

I know exactly how you feel. I too, had some major problems after finishing t3. My hair started falling out, i was always cold, depressed, fatigued, low body temp. All the symptoms, and it feels terrible. My blood test results were all screwed up. I told the doctor what i had been taking and he told me to just stay off everything and wait about 2 weeks and come back in. Your thyroid will recover on its own, but it is possible to give yourself lifelong problems requiring meds for a long time by taking t3. The doctor will know what to do when he see's the results. Tell them what you were on too. You'll be ok, this happens all the time to people.

 

[junk]

I know exactly how you feel. I too, had some major problems after finishing t3. My hair started falling out, i was always cold, depressed, fatigued, low body temp. All the symptoms, and it feels terrible. My blood test results were all screwed up. I told the doctor what i had been taking and he told me to just stay off everything and wait about 2 weeks and come back in. Your thyroid will recover on its own, but it is possible to give yourself lifelong problems requiring meds for a long time by taking t3. The doctor will know what to do when he see's the results. Tell them what you were on too. You'll be ok, this happens all the time to people.

When did you experience the crash? I did experience it about 3 weeks after stopping the T3. But I guess the fina at 150EOD didn't help the T3 and along either.

Did you recover witihin 2 weeks time or are you on meds for the rest of your life? Can you post your TSH,T3 and T4 results please?
Thanks.

 

[junk]

** BLOOD RESULTS ARE IN!!! **

Ok friends, blood tests arrived 5 minutes ago

HELP

T3 : Ng/DL < 40 (Normal range: 72-170)

FT4: Ng/DL 1.2 (Normal range: 0.8-1.9)

TSH: iu/ml 0.60 (Normal range: 0.40-4.00)


As I suspected having the EXACT symptoms of Hipothyrodism I was RIGHT.

Let me remind you that I was using only LOW dosages of T3 for ONLY less than a month !! Tapering up and down.

I kept detailed records of my T3 usage:

3 days: 6.25
5 days: 12.5
2 days: 18.75
2 days: 25
4 days: 37.5
3 days: 25
3 days: 18.75
3 days: 12.5
2 days: 6.25 This last dose was taken almost a month ago!

My symptoms began 4 days ago 3 weeks after last T3 pill was taken.

I was also on Fina for 6 weeks at 150mg EOD (Last injection was 3 days ago) along with Bromocriptine at 2.5mg ED during the 6 weeks time of the Fina.

I am also on HCG at 750iu a day for last 10 days of my cycle (Today will be the last HCG shot).

I am wondering if the TSH may be wrong because the HCG may give a false TSH reading perhaps?

Now I made a good research over the Internet and it seems this Hypothyrodism shit is not a simple issue. Many doctors don't agree with one another of the issues of TSH, Free T3 and opposed to free T4 and the use of Armour(T3,T4 from pigs) as opposed to Synthroid. I've also read that a doctor can pretty much FUCK my thyroid by giving me medications that I'll have to stay for life as opposed to Natural therapies and giving more time for self healing.

I AM FUCKING DESPERATE. I FEEL LIKE SHIT. I CAN'T TRAIN.. I CAN'T WORK.. I AM DEPRESSED. I MAY BE GAINING ALL THE WEIGHT I'VE LOST IN MY CUTTING CYCLE AND BE A FAT MAN (40% DECREASE IN METABOLISM IN HYPOTHYROID ILL PEOPLE). AND I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A PRIVATE OPEN MINDED ENDOCRINOLOGYST.

Please interpret my Blood tests readings and tell me what the fuck is going on. This is my 4th cycle and nothing happened to me before..

BTW: As of two days ago I started upping the Bromo dosage to 5mg (two pills a day) in hope that maybe my Prolactin levels cause all this shit. But 2.5mg should have been enough.

 

[Quadsweep]

That sucks bro. I would tough it out and wait to see if my body recovered on its own and talk to your doctor. There is a good chance your body will recover. I am always shocked how many people use T3 here. I have been competing since 1985 and juicing since 1993 and this year for the USA Championships was the first year I used T3 and I only went up to 50mcg and I was only on two weeks. Its not a game folks. Be careful what you choose to use!

Quad

 

[JP@Ironology]

That sucks bro. I would tough it out and wait to see if my body recovered on its own and talk to your doctor. There is a good chance your body will recover. I am always shocked how many people use T3 here. I have been competing since 1985 and juicing since 1993 and this year for the USA Championships was the first year I used T3 and I only went up to 50mcg and I was only on two weeks. Its not a game folks. Be careful what you choose to use!

Quad

Quad,

Since you have done so well in past without T3, will you use it again? Do you think your short cycle of T3 enhanced your physique compared to prior competitions.

 

[junk]

Maybe I have secondary Hypothyrodism. That is when TSH is quite low (like my blood test showed)

"""""
Primary hypothyroidism - the most common type - will always have a higher than normal TSH in the earliest stages, while the Total T4 and FreeT4 results may be normal.

Secondary hypothyroidism - is due to an abnormality in the pituitary gland not the thyroid gland and usually includes a low TSH not a high TSH. Therefore, a person could be hypothyroid but have a TSH result that would seem to show the person is hyperthyroid. This is not a very common illness. The FT4I test is used to determine treatment with thyroid hormone replacement in these hypothyroid patients and not the standard TSH test.
""""

This is getting complicated. can someone help? Maybe the HCG I was start taking in the last 10 days of my cycle (750ui ed) fucked up my pituitary gland ?

I think I will also make a Prolactin blood test tomorrow. Maybe the bromo at 2.5mg a day didn't stop the prolactin from the fina. who knows.

 

[leancuisine]

t3 - WAY OVERRATED!!!!

ec stack twice a day at 50mg a pop every other day will kick t-3 in the ass any day, anywhere, anytime!

 

[Nelson Montana]

No offense bro, but what do you expect anyone here to do? You have a condition that requires medical attention. Listening to the idiots who recommend T3 is what got you in this situation in the first place. Maybe you should listen to your doctor now.

 

[Fonz]

No offense bro, but what do you expect anyone here to do? You have a condition that requires medical attention. Listening to the idiots who recommend T3 is what got you in this situation in the first place. Maybe you should listen to your doctor now.

He does not have any type of hypo-thyroidic condition.

No cycle that low will screw up your thyroid for life.

It is more than likely that he is hyper-sensitive to exogenous T3,
and therefore he downregulated his thyroid.....via TSH attrophy(Look at his numbers....specially TSH).

It takes 8 weeks for the thyroid to fully recover after this.

He can start by taking L-tyrosine(12g/day) or Acetyl-L-tyrosine.

Other than that, nothing much he can do.

Fonz

 

[Fonz]

Re: ** BLOOD RESULTS ARE IN!!! **

Ok friends, blood tests arrived 5 minutes ago

HELP

T3 : Ng/DL < 40 (Normal range: 72-170)

FT4: Ng/DL 1.2 (Normal range: 0.8-1.9)

TSH: iu/ml 0.60 (Normal range: 0.40-4.00)


As I suspected having the EXACT symptoms of Hipothyrodism I was RIGHT.

Let me remind you that I was using only LOW dosages of T3 for ONLY less than a month !! Tapering up and down.

I kept detailed records of my T3 usage:

3 days: 6.25
5 days: 12.5
2 days: 18.75
2 days: 25
4 days: 37.5
3 days: 25
3 days: 18.75
3 days: 12.5
2 days: 6.25 This last dose was taken almost a month ago!

My symptoms began 4 days ago 3 weeks after last T3 pill was taken.

I was also on Fina for 6 weeks at 150mg EOD (Last injection was 3 days ago) along with Bromocriptine at 2.5mg ED during the 6 weeks time of the Fina.

I am also on HCG at 750iu a day for last 10 days of my cycle (Today will be the last HCG shot).

I am wondering if the TSH may be wrong because the HCG may give a false TSH reading perhaps?

Now I made a good research over the Internet and it seems this Hypothyrodism shit is not a simple issue. Many doctors don't agree with one another of the issues of TSH, Free T3 and opposed to free T4 and the use of Armour(T3,T4 from pigs) as opposed to Synthroid. I've also read that a doctor can pretty much FUCK my thyroid by giving me medications that I'll have to stay for life as opposed to Natural therapies and giving more time for self healing.

I AM FUCKING DESPERATE. I FEEL LIKE SHIT. I CAN'T TRAIN.. I CAN'T WORK.. I AM DEPRESSED. I MAY BE GAINING ALL THE WEIGHT I'VE LOST IN MY CUTTING CYCLE AND BE A FAT MAN (40% DECREASE IN METABOLISM IN HYPOTHYROID ILL PEOPLE). AND I AM STILL LOOKING FOR A PRIVATE OPEN MINDED ENDOCRINOLOGYST.

Please interpret my Blood tests readings and tell me what the fuck is going on. This is my 4th cycle and nothing happened to me before..

BTW: As of two days ago I started upping the Bromo dosage to 5mg (two pills a day) in hope that maybe my Prolactin levels cause all this shit. But 2.5mg should have been enough.

Here are my blood test results following 16 WEEKS of T3.

T4, Total: 5.0 Range: 4.5-12.5

T3, up-take: 47% Normal: 27.8-40.7

T4, Free(Calculated): 2.4 Normal: 1.6-3.7

T4, Free(Non-dyalisis): 2.1 Normal: 0.8-1.5

TSH: 1.8 Normal 0.4-5.5

Now Yours:

T3 : Ng/DL < 40 (Normal range: 72-170)

FT4: Ng/DL 1.2 (Normal range: 0.8-1.9)

TSH: iu/ml 0.60 (Normal range: 0.40-4.00)


The only thing that concerne me is the TSH reading.

Got to BAC or someone who carries it and get yourself some acetyl-L-Tyrosine.

Start at 12g/day.(Its what i used)

It should improve your TSH/T3/T4 functions.

Fonz

 

[DepressiveJuice]

Everything that transpires between you and your Dr cannot be released to ANYBODY. Not even your insurance company with out a written medical release form from you.

hmmm not really. i work for doctors and their employees, as well as the insurance have access to the patients records. unless you specify to the doctor who cant see your records.


FONZ what doses did you use for T3?

 

[Fonz]

hmmm not really. i work for doctors and their employees, as well as the insurance have access to the patients records. unless you specify to the doctor who cant see your records.


FONZ what doses did you use for T3?

A 150mcg ramp-up for 6 weeks.

Then 12.5-25mcgs for the other 10weeks.

Fonz

 

[Xtreme2001]

I don't want to scare you, but you may have to resort to medication for the rest of your life. Sure it may return to its normal state within time, but hypothyroidism itsn't fun.

I know someone who has it, and is on medication for the rest of his life.. it's not pretty.

 

[Quadsweep]

Quad,

Since you have done so well in past without T3, will you use it again? Do you think your short cycle of T3 enhanced your physique compared to prior competitions.

Well, I do think it helped somewhat. Clen starts to down regulate on me after two weeks or so so I think it kicked it back up. I will use it again even though when you start using it when you are in the 3.8% range you feel like shit and you starve to death!

Quad

 

[junk]

Thanks Fonz. I was considering going to a Endocrinology doctor but a friend of mine who's just got his MD told me, I should try to resolve this stuff without medication and without an endocrinology expert and see what happens within 2 weeks after the fina is flushed out of the system. He suggested I would go and check my Prolactin levels although I did take bromo. So I was thinking of going tomorrow for a prolactin check.

Second, I'm taking L-Tyrosine now, the literature states about 2000-3000mg a day not 12g. Are you sure I should take acetyl-L-Tyrosine (Probably a bounder L-Tyrosine I assume) at a dose of 12 gram a day?

Also, since this is exactly the end of my cuttingcycle which I can loose shit load of muscle and gain shit load of fat due to Hypothyrodism, do you think I should start Clomid and Clen ASAP ? I mean it looks like a double-edged sword, I don't know if the Clomid or Clen will fuck things even further. And should I continue the Bromo. God, my situation's getting complicated. Also, in fear of not gaining fat (Hypo can cause up to 40% degration in metabolism) I'm doing 60 minutes cardio on an empty stomach at 70vomax every day and eat only an hour later, but that contradicts the Clomid and Clen therapy post cycle. Your experience is so much greatly appreciated bro. Thank You.

 

[MrRTTB]

I experienced that too when I did T3 + Tren a long time ago. I gained back all the fat again and the post cycle crash was mayor, lost it all. Then I saw something that one should always use EC when comming of both Clen and T3 so the natural T3 copuld get back to normal without me gaining a lot of fat. I did another short 4 weeker with tren and T3. Loved the results and when I came off and stopped the T3 I started with Ephedrine/caffein for 1 month. My bodytemp and metaboölism was always high during this time and even after stopping the cycle my metabolism seemed to have increased a bit. It felt like my normal values had increased in some way. Try it.

 

[junk]

bump. please that's important

 

[junk]

^

^

 

[Fonz]

Thanks Fonz. I was considering going to a Endocrinology doctor but a friend of mine who's just got his MD told me, I should try to resolve this stuff without medication and without an endocrinology expert and see what happens within 2 weeks after the fina is flushed out of the system. He suggested I would go and check my Prolactin levels although I did take bromo. So I was thinking of going tomorrow for a prolactin check.

Second, I'm taking L-Tyrosine now, the literature states about 2000-3000mg a day not 12g. Are you sure I should take acetyl-L-Tyrosine (Probably a bounder L-Tyrosine I assume) at a dose of 12 gram a day?

Also, since this is exactly the end of my cuttingcycle which I can loose shit load of muscle and gain shit load of fat due to Hypothyrodism, do you think I should start Clomid and Clen ASAP ? I mean it looks like a double-edged sword, I don't know if the Clomid or Clen will fuck things even further. And should I continue the Bromo. God, my situation's getting complicated. Also, in fear of not gaining fat (Hypo can cause up to 40% degration in metabolism) I'm doing 60 minutes cardio on an empty stomach at 70vomax every day and eat only an hour later, but that contradicts the Clomid and Clen therapy post cycle. Your experience is so much greatly appreciated bro. Thank You.

Clen?

Come one now...think clearly.

You want your thyroid to recover not get screwed up.

You have options.....non-adrenergic ones.

#1: Acetyl_L-Tyrosine: 12g/day Not 2-3g, but 12g in 3 4g dosages throughout the day.

Acetyl-L-Tyrosine passes the cellular barrier better than normal L-tyrosine. Better absorption so to speak.

#2 Your metabolism is going to be slowed down b/c of the thyroid
downregulation, so you want a good nutrient partiotioning agent.

r-ala(300mg/meal) w/ meals. If this is too expensive, you can also use regular ALA(500mg-1g/meals).

#3 Relatively new but has shown promise in normalizing(or improving) T3 levels(mecahnism is still unknown).

7-Keto-DHEA.... they have at the AF Store...called "P-7".

One bottle should last you a month or so.

So, to sum it up:

#1: 12g Acetyl_L-Tyrosine/day
#2: r-ala or ALA w/meals
#3: P7 used every day.

After 5/6 weeks get re-tested for your thyroid panel and your levels should have improved drastically.

All this should cost your $100-150 total.

And for gods sake stay AWAY from stimulants....Not Bromo....which is OK..but Clen, NYC, ECA.....etc..etc...

Fonz

 

[Nelson Montana]

7 keto dhea has some very immpressive research behind it, but nothing, that I know of, among people with severe hypothyroidism.

Thyrosine converts T4 to T3, but if the T4 is low, you're fucked. Selenium works in the same way -- a very underrated nutrient.

Don't forget iodine, but too high of a dosage is toxic.

And believe it or not, Maca, has been shown to improve thyroid function.

I'd still suggest getting your ass to a doctor.

 

[MohawkMuscle]

Why go see a doctor???

90% of the board members are self proclaimed doctors!!!!

 

[DaMan]

Fonz, what do you think about

a) Guggulbolic

b) low-dose DNP (keep in mind T3 rebound / glycogen supercompensation upon cessation)

for this guy's case?

(Nelson, please do not respond, no offense but you're the guy who called DNP a "weed killer" and the studies you posted defending your stance on T3 are, well, there aren't any).

 

[Nelson Montana]

DaMan: Don't worry, there's no need for you to read my posts. They're directed only to people with IQ's with more than two digits.

 

[Fonz]

Fonz, what do you think about

a) Guggulbolic

b) low-dose DNP (keep in mind T3 rebound / glycogen supercompensation upon cessation)

for this guy's case?

(Nelson, please do not respond, no offense but you're the guy who called DNP a "weed killer" and the studies you posted defending your stance on T3 are, well, there aren't any).

a) Guggulsterones(A toZ) are just good for improving mild acne. Little else. They were a bust for thyroid function. Phosphates showed some promise.

b) He's too inexperienced for that.

And Nelson, that was uncalled for.......for real.

Fonz

 

[DaMan]

DaMan: Don't worry, there's no need for you to read my posts. They're directed only to people with IQ's with more than two digits.

Very mature.

How do you know what my IQ is btw?

 

[DaMan]

a) Guggulsterones(A toZ) are just good for improving mild acne. Little else. They were a bust for thyroid function. Phosphates showed some promise.

b) He's too inexperienced for that.

And Nelson, that was uncalled for.......for real.

Fonz

a) Good to know.

b) Hmm. Even a super-low dosage like, say, 100mg? In any case, what would the effect be on someone WITH experience (i.e. us)?

re Nelson - ah nevermind, I don't think I need to say anything

 

[Nelson Montana]

Yo, Fonz -- that was totally called for bro. This guy is being rude -- he deserves the same. Who decided that he should decide who may post or not? I find it very funny when someone can come off like an asshole, then they get all pissy when they're put in their place.

I'm trying to provide responsible information here and I get shit in my face? Tell you what DeMan: If you think this board isn't big enough for the two of us, let the members decide who should leave. If they vote me out, I will go without an argument and never return. Will you do the same? If not, shut the fuck up.

And for anyone who is interested, Gugglesterones are estrogenic. Just thought you'd like to know -- if that's okay with you DeMan.

 

[DaMan]

Tell you what DeMan: If you think this board isn't big enough for the two of us, let the members decide who should leave. If they vote me out, I will go without an argument and never return. Will you do the same? If not, shut the fuck up.

Jesus, who pissed in your Wheaties... you're a specimen of composure my friend. Now stop watching the Clint Eastwood marathon on TNN and get back to calling board members "fucking morons"

Hey what ever happened to Corky from "Life Goes On"?

PS - If getting any votes will really help with your self-esteem, go ahead and post the poll... try to spell my name right when you do it, though.

 

[DaMan]

BTW junk, check out this article, may help you.

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/4/306.html

 

[junk]

Thanks for DaMan, Fonz & Nelson. Thanks for understanding this is NOT an easy situation for me, and this is certainly an intelligent thread (unlike threads like:Show I chew dbols or not).

Now on to several points:

* Fonz do you really think I can live with having 40% strength in the gym? Totally depressed and tired for 8 weeks?!?!? That's insane. Gee... I really feel like shit, no way to describe the lethargy. Why did my TSH become so low? Like it's more Hyperthyrodism than Hypothyrodim, while Free T4 looked ok and T3 looked fucked up?

* I didn't know Clen had any bad property on the Thyroid. I thought this was only with NYC and ECA not with Clen. But if you say so I take it. Thing is I didn't want to fucking loose everything I've worked for so hard in the gym. But you're the guru.

* I can't get Acetyl

* Fonz, what do you say about DaMan's suggestion on 100mg DNP ?

* MOST IMPORTANT Question: Do you think I should still go on with a very low caloric diet (about 1700 cals) along with 60 minutes (@70voMax) cardio every morning and 3 times a week weight-training?
I mean, I should do whatever I can to speed up metabolism right? But it will also probably kill all my muscle tissues completely because I've just finished my cutting cycle and started clomid. So I am lost here.

Thanks again (I wouldn't bullshit your heads if I didn't feel so fucking BAD)

 

[Nelson Montana]

I get pissed because I can't stand, coy, passive aggresive little weasals. If you're going to confront someone, do it like a man, not like a pussy. Don't misquote someone, throw snide little disparaging remarks their way, then stand back like you're so imperious.

 

[DaMan]

I get pissed because I can't stand, coy, passive aggresive little weasals [sic]. If you're going to confront someone, do it like a man, not like a pussy. Don't misquote someone, throw snide little disparaging remarks their way, then stand back like you're so imperious.

Dude just give it up and end it here, you're the bigger man, ok?

The topic of this thread is to help junk out with his problems, not turn this into a pissing contest.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Don't start what you can't finish dude.

100 mgs of DNP. Yeah, that's great advice.

 

[drgoodbody]

this is an old discussion...

I had this very same discussion years ago on Renegade BB and on UG with "The Raver" who was a mod there. The following is from a column by "Brock Strasser" (aka Bruce Kneller) at T-mag.

----------- Excerpt below----------------

Thyroid Hormones = Permanent Suppression?

For years, many of us have been repeating, with little scientific evidence, that if you used too much thyroid hormone for too long you'd permanently screw up your brain/thyroid axis, end up with a permanent case of hypothyroidism and be a fat, slow slob on maintenance level Synthroid (T4) for the rest of your life.

This "urban legend" was first postulated by my mentor, Dan Duchaine (may peace be upon him) and propagated further over the years by a bunch of "fitness queens" who lived on Cytomel, looked great, ate like truck drivers and got as big as a leather couch when they stopped the Cytomel. For years, we blamed it on some thyroidic suppression. Well, folks, we wuz' wrong!

I've been listening to the experience of a guy named "Raver" on a steroid message board and have been monitoring his experiences with Cytomel over the last year. Raver is convinced that T3 does not cause permanent suppression, even at 150-300 mcg per day for long periods of time. And it turns out, he was 100% correct!

Make no mistake about it, using exogenous thyroid hormones will suppress your own production of endogenous thyroid hormone and you will be hypothyroidic for a few weeks when you come off. But as many people can tell you, this state isn't permanent. This got me to thinking, so I started snooping around the medical school library archives. I soon dug up an old article from the NEJM for your perusal and I only wish I'd discovered this thing five years ago. Check it out:

N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4

Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy.

Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable.

After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal.

Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks. Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.

Translation: At least in women (and I'd venture to say men, too) the body will bounce back to baseline in a month or so. This is important information for people using any type of thyroid-based drug to lose fat. It should tell you that you need to be really vigilant for about a month after stopping such drugs with regard to diet and cardio.

Thanks, Raver!
---------------

It was about time the Rave got his props and Brock let it be known. Too bad Rave is rec. drug addict now

DrG

 

[Nelson Montana]

This is a case of "Brock" whistling in the dark. He's used thyroid meds and wants to believe it's okay.

Dan was right about this one. And yes, there are plenty of people who screwed themselves up with cytomel, levothyroxin and even triacana. You must realize there aren't too many cotrolled clinical studies done on abuse of thyroid med on humans. Who would volunteer?

The study posted in sketchy and nconclusive, but even if one assumes the conclusions are correct, the thyroid will be suprressed for up to a month (maybe longer) whch is MORE THAN ENOUGH TIME to gain back all the fat lost -- and then some

Now will someone explain to me why they would be okay with this?

 

[junk]

Appreciate it...

Fonz and others, I would appreciate answers to the following points I've outlined that puzzle me:

* Fonz do you really think I can live with having 40% strength in the gym? Totally depressed and tired for 8 weeks?!?!? That's insane. Gee... I really feel like shit, no way to describe the lethargy. Why did my TSH become so low? Like it's more Hyperthyrodism than Hypothyrodim, while Free T4 looked ok and T3 looked fucked up?

* I didn't know Clen had any bad property on the Thyroid. I thought this was only with NYC and ECA not with Clen. But if you say so I take it. Thing is I didn't want to fucking loose everything I've worked for so hard in the gym. But you're the guru.


* MOST IMPORTANT Question: Do you think I should still go on with a very low caloric diet (about 1700 cals) along with 60 minutes (@70voMax) cardio every morning and 3 times a week weight-training?
I mean, I should do whatever I can to speed up metabolism right? But it will also probably kill all my muscle tissues completely because I've just finished my cutting cycle and started clomid. So I am lost here.

* ALSO BTW: I've checked my Prolactin levels yesterday (just in case cause High prolactin can cause hypothyrodism). Prolactin levels came out good at LESS than 0.5 (Normal 0-15) So I also stopped the bromo in fear that maybe that may have caused me low blood pressure or something.

 

[nandi12]

T3 : Ng/DL < 40 (Normal range: 72-170)

FT4: Ng/DL 1.2 (Normal range: 0.8-1.9)

TSH: iu/ml 0.60 (Normal range: 0.40-4.00)

These data do not in themselves indicate hypothyroidism; on the contrary they suggest you are normal. It would have been nice to have gotten a free T3 value. Total T3 is not meaningful for someone who has been using steroids within a window of several weeks before a thyroid test.

AAS lower thyroid binding globulin levels (TBG) which leads to low TOTAL T3 and T4 but free values remain normal. Notice your free T4 and TSH are normal. This indicates your thyroid is fine. If you were hypothyroid TSH would be high and free T4 would be low.

There is another possibility, but it is impossible to know without a free T3 value. T4 is converted to T3 by the enzyme deiodinase. A low calorie diet lowers deiodinase levels, leading to normal T4 and normal TSH but low T3.


www.cuttingedgemuscle.com

 

[DaMan]

These data do not in themselves indicate hypothyroidism; on the contrary they suggest you are normal. It would have been nice to have gotten a free T3 value. Total T3 is not meaningful for someone who has been using steroids within a window of several weeks before a thyroid test.

AAS lower thyroid binding globulin levels (TBG) which leads to low TOTAL T3 and T4 but free values remain normal. Notice your free T4 and TSH are normal. This indicates your thyroid is fine. If you were hypothyroid TSH would be high and free T4 would be low.

There is another possibility, but it is impossible to know without a free T3 value. T4 is converted to T3 by the enzyme deiodinase. A low calorie diet lowers deiodinase levels, leading to normal T4 and normal TSH but low T3.


www.cuttingedgemuscle.com

nandi - could you give a comprehensive list of tests one should take when on T3 or anything that affects thyroid output? I get my bloodwork done religiously pre-, on-, and post-cycle and test for the following (as far as thyroid goes)

TSH
T3-uptake
Total T3
Free T4

What else? (Insurance pays and doctor is very cooperative, so slap on whatever you think necessary).

 

[nandi12]

The ones you listed are adequate to determine your thyroid status, DaMan. Free T3 is not generally measured in a routine panel because it has technical pitfalls that make the results hard to interpret.

If you have normal TSH and normal Free T4 then your thyroid is working fine. If those come out normal, but you have the symptoms of hypothyroidism, then the problem may be in the conversion of T4 to T3 (Wilson's Syndrome, or in severe cases it is called Euthyroid Sick Syndrome).

If your insurance won't pay for a free T4 then get the total T4, T3 resin uptake and TSH. My Merck Manual claims these "permit a valid interpretation of thyroid status in virtually all patients"

 

[DaMan]

Thx nandi!

Is T3-"RESIN"-uptake the same as T3-uptake?

 

[nandi12]

Yes, they are the same. Also sometimes denoted THBR. If you get your thyroid checked while on T3, your TSH and T4 will be low, while T3 will be high. This will be a tipoff to a smart doc that you are using T3. Just a heads up, in case you don't want your doc to know.

 

[DaMan]

Yes, they are the same. Also sometimes denoted THBR. If you get your thyroid checked while on T3, your TSH and T4 will be low, while T3 will be high. This will be a tipoff to a smart doc that you are using T3. Just a heads up, in case you don't want your doc to know.

Actually my doc is the one who prescribed me the T3 (and gear) and orders my bloodwork but thx for looking out

(Others - don't ask. Seriously.)

 

[nandi12]

Actually my doc is the one who prescribed me the T3 (and gear) and orders my bloodwork

Cool. In that case, just for fun to see how high your T3 gets, I would tell the doc you were curious about that and you'd like either a total serum T3 and /or free T3 test.

Ive seen a study where they looked at nine normal men, on doses of 25, 50, and 75 mcg per day of T3

Baseline total T3 was 160ng/dl. 25 mcg raised it to 178; 50mcg to 202; and 75mcg to 251.

For Free T3 baseline was 400 pg/dl. 25 mcg raised it to 423; 50 mcg to 459; and 75mcg to 568

 

[junk]

thanks a lot nandi12, you know your shit, that's for sure.

I asked the lab over and over regarding Free T3, and they don't have it there (It's a national lab in my country) Their Thyroid panel is only the results I've stated before.

My TSH was 0.60 which is even close to Hyperthyrodism in fact.
My Free T4 came normal,
but but Total T3 is horrible, it's LESS than 40 while normal just even begins with 76!

Anyway, I have the symptoms very aggrevated, no way to go wrong here. I have the symtoms of Hypothyrodism. So I have at least a temporary thyroid problem, maybe Medically speaking it's not Hypothyrodism, but bottom line is my metabolic rate is probably 40% lower than normal people and I feel like shit.

 

[nandi12]

I'd give myself a bit more time to recover. I seriously doubt the T3 permanently damaged your thyroid. Without knowing your free T3 it is impossible to tell (as far as I know) whether you are having a problem converting the T4 into T3.

There is an argument in the medical community over just how common is the problem of a low rate of conversion of T4 to T3. The majority of doctors probably believe "Wilson's Syndrome" is not real, others believe it is very real and quite common. The problem is compounded by the fact that the majority of people who complain of being hypothyroid yet show normal thyroid results are women. Unfortunately doctors are known to tell female patients that "it is all in your head" when they present with a problem the doctor can't solve.

There is also a division in the medical community about whether low dose thyroid hormone should be given to patients who have "subclinical hypothyroidism". These people usually present with a high normal TSH and normal hormone levels, but complain of hypothyroid symptoms. Again, since the majority are women, they are often not given thyroid hormones. My wife is in this group. The docs kept saying "you're normal" and would not prescribe T3 or T4. So she just started treating herself and now she fells 100% better. (Not that this is your problem though because your TSH is low normal)

You could try an ECA stack to boost metabolism. Ephedrine used for a short period (a few weeks) enhances the conversion of T4 to T3 (1). If you started feeling better it would suggest that conversion might be your problem.

In any case, I hope you start feeling better soon.

(1) Am J Clin Nutr 1985 Jul;42(1):83-94

Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man.

Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ.

The thermogenic effect of a single oral dose of ephedrine (1 mg/kg body weight) was studied by indirect calorimetry in five women with 14% overweight before, during and 2 mo after 3 mo of chronic ephedrine treatment (20 mg, perorally, three times daily). Before treatment and 2 mo after its cessation a similar thermogenic response to ephedrine was observed. The total extra consumption of oxygen was 1.3 1 before and 1.2 1 after cessation of the chronic treatment. After 4 and 12 wk of treatment ephedrine elicited a more sustained response, the extra oxygen consumption in the 3 h following ephedrine intake being 7.0 and 6.9 1, respectively. The ratio of serum T3 to T4 increased significantly after 4 wk of treatment (15.6 +/- 1.3 vs 19.4 +/- 2.4; p less than 0.05), but decreased below the initial value after 12 wk treatment. The mean body weight was significantly reduced after 4 and 12 wk of treatment (2.5 and 5.5 kg, respectively). An improved capacity for beta-adrenergic induced thermogenesis may be useful in the treatment of obesity.

 

[junk]

Gee Nadi thanks for the abstruct. Now I'm even MORE confused

Fonz say: stay away from ECA, CLEN and other stimulants, and you are actually showing a proof that ECA may help me recover. I've also read a lot of other places not to touch Ephedrive or Caffeine in situations like myself. But you're stating an interesting research. Maybe I will go for it

 

[nandi12]

When people say to avoid adrenergic agonists like ephedrine while your thyroid is recovering, their concern I believe is that the elevated T3 will act in a negative feedback way to slow thyroid recovery. This is a valid concern, although it is a hypothesis rather than someting that has been shown to actually occur.

As I suggested, just giving your thyroid a little more time is probably the best strategy. However, it sounds like you are suffering miserably from your symptoms. So you have a decision. You could supplement with ephedrine which will raise your metabolic rate and improve your symptoms with a POSSIBILITY of the elevated T3 slowing complete recovery. Or you can live with the symptoms longer and hope that your condition improves.

This is reflective of the division in the medical community about treating subclinical hypothyroidism: do you treat the symtoms even when thyroid function is normal (as yours appears to be according to the numbers), or do you withold treatment out of concern for side effects.

It is a complicated issue.


www.cuttingedgemuscle.com

 

[Fonz]

I'd give myself a bit more time to recover. I seriously doubt the T3 permanently damaged your thyroid. Without knowing your free T3 it is impossible to tell (as far as I know) whether you are having a problem converting the T4 into T3.

There is an argument in the medical community over just how common is the problem of a low rate of conversion of T4 to T3. The majority of doctors probably believe "Wilson's Syndrome" is not real, others believe it is very real and quite common. The problem is compounded by the fact that the majority of people who complain of being hypothyroid yet show normal thyroid results are women. Unfortunately doctors are known to tell female patients that "it is all in your head" when they present with a problem the doctor can't solve.

There is also a division in the medical community about whether low dose thyroid hormone should be given to patients who have "subclinical hypothyroidism". These people usually present with a high normal TSH and normal hormone levels, but complain of hypothyroid symptoms. Again, since the majority are women, they are often not given thyroid hormones. My wife is in this group. The docs kept saying "you're normal" and would not prescribe T3 or T4. So she just started treating herself and now she fells 100% better. (Not that this is your problem though because your TSH is low normal)

You could try an ECA stack to boost metabolism. Ephedrine used for a short period (a few weeks) enhances the conversion of T4 to T3 (1). If you started feeling better it would suggest that conversion might be your problem.

In any case, I hope you start feeling better soon.

(1) Am J Clin Nutr 1985 Jul;42(1):83-94

Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man.

Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ.

The thermogenic effect of a single oral dose of ephedrine (1 mg/kg body weight) was studied by indirect calorimetry in five women with 14% overweight before, during and 2 mo after 3 mo of chronic ephedrine treatment (20 mg, perorally, three times daily). Before treatment and 2 mo after its cessation a similar thermogenic response to ephedrine was observed. The total extra consumption of oxygen was 1.3 1 before and 1.2 1 after cessation of the chronic treatment. After 4 and 12 wk of treatment ephedrine elicited a more sustained response, the extra oxygen consumption in the 3 h following ephedrine intake being 7.0 and 6.9 1, respectively. The ratio of serum T3 to T4 increased significantly after 4 wk of treatment (15.6 +/- 1.3 vs 19.4 +/- 2.4; p less than 0.05), but decreased below the initial value after 12 wk treatment. The mean body weight was significantly reduced after 4 and 12 wk of treatment (2.5 and 5.5 kg, respectively). An improved capacity for beta-adrenergic induced thermogenesis may be useful in the treatment of obesity.

One problem Nandi. These were normal people w/ normal thyroid function, not downregulated.

If he took ECA, T4 would not be converted to T3, but more than likely the metbolically inactive reverse T3(rT3).

I don't think it is a good time to use any kind of stimulant that mimics adrenaline in any way, and targets the SNS. He wants the SNS system to recover......along w/ his thyroid function. These two as you well know are interrelated.

Best bet, is to use a Dopamine Agonist such as Bromocriptine which targets the PNS.

He will be getting its appetite suppressant effects plus his thyroid gland and his SNS will be allowed to recover.

Fonz

 

[junk]

Thanks Fonz, can you please (This will be last answer these question for me:

* I didn't know Clen had any bad property on the Thyroid. I thought this was only with NYC and ECA not with Clen. But if you say so I take it. Thing is I didn't want to fucking loose everything I've worked for so hard in the gym. But you're the guru.


* MOST IMPORTANT Question: Do you think I should still go on with a very low caloric diet (about 1700 cals) along with 60 minutes (@70voMax) cardio every morning and 3 times a week weight-training?
I mean, I should do whatever I can to speed up metabolism right? But it will also probably kill all my muscle tissues completely because I've just finished my cutting cycle and started clomid. So I am lost here.
Don't forget that I'm just POST cutting cycle and began Clomid therapy a few days ago. This would be the worest time to make long session cardios, wait an hor before eating and only eat 1500-1700 cals a day, don't you think?

 

[nandi12]

If he took ECA, T4 would not be converted to T3, but more than likely the metbolically inactive reverse T3(rT3).

There are two problems, Fonz.

First, can you document from the scientific literature that the statement in quotations is true?

Second, according to his thyroid test, his hormone values (TSH and fT4) ARE normal, not depressed. His low total T3 does not mean anything necessarily because he has been using AAS, which lower total thyroid hormone values.

This situation is analogous to the one described in the abstract below. These doctors had to treat this guys AAS induced hypogonadism. First, they alleviated the symtoms by giving him sustanon. Then they treated the hypogonadism with HCG. They could just as easily withheld the sustanon and used onlyHCG, probably speeding his recovery, but prolonging his misery.

People are always looking for black and white answers. Often there aren't any.

Postgrad Med J 1998 Jan;74(867):45-6

Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.

Gill GV.

Endocrine Unit, Walton Hospital, Liverpool, UK.

A case is presented of a young competitive body-builder who abused anabolic steroid drugs and developed profound symptomatic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. With the help of prescribed testosterone (Sustanon) he stopped taking anabolic drugs, and later stopped Sustanon also. Hypogonadism returned, but was successfully treated with weekly injections of human chorionic gonadotropin for three months. Testicular function remained normal thereafter on no treatment. The use of human chorionic gonadotropin should be considered in prolonged hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism due to anabolic steroid abuse

 

[nandi12]

I didn't know Clen had any bad property on the Thyroid

To answer your question, clen has basically the same effect as ephedrine: it increases the peripheral conversion of T4 to T3

Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 May;58(5):895-903

Effects of chronic beta-receptor stimulation on sympathetic nervous system activity, energy expenditure, and thyroid hormones.

Scheidegger K, O'Connell M, Robbins DC, Danforth E Jr.

The effects of hyper- and hypothyroidism on sympathetic nervous system activity and energy expenditure are well recognized. The impact of altered sympathetic nervous system activity on energy expenditure and thyroid hormone metabolism has not been well studied. We investigated the effects of orally administered terbutaline sulfate, a beta 2-receptor agonist (5 mg, three times per day for 2 weeks), on the activity of the sympathetic nervous system, energy expenditure, and thyroid hormone metabolism in six normal men, aged 21-36 yr. The cardiovascular, metabolic, and thermogenic responses to an infusion of the beta-adrenergic agonist isoproterenol were clearly blunted after 2 weeks of treatment with terbutaline sulfate, indicating down-regulation of beta-receptors and/or development of reduced sensitivity. There were no significant changes in the cardiovascular, metabolic, or thermogenic responses to an infusion of the alpha-adrenergic agonist phenylephrine. Basal metabolic rate was significantly increased by the chronic administration of terbutaline sulfate [5.040 +/- 0.167 (+/- SE) vs. 5.421 +/- 0.234 kJ/min; P less than 0.05]. There was a highly significant change in the serum T3 to T4 ratio (19.4 +/- 1.0 vs. 24.4 +/- 1.0; P less than 0.001). This was a result of increased serum T3 concentrations (136 +/- 9 vs. 160 +/- 14 ng/dl; P less than 0.05) and decreased serum T4 concentrations (7.2 +/- 0.8 vs. 6.7 +/- 0.8 micrograms/dl; P = NS). Chronic beta-receptor stimulation with terbutaline sulfate increases the basal metabolic rate and T3 concentrations. These changes occurred despite down-regulation of beta-receptors and/or decreased sensitivity in response to chronic terbutaline administration.

Also, the LAST thing you would want to take is bromocriptine. Bromocriptine has been used successfully to treat HYPERTHYROIDISM not hypothyroidism. A number of studies like the one below have shown that dopaminergic agonists lower TSH levels. This is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 May;58(5):934-6

Bromocriptine therapy for hyperthyroidism due to increased thyrotropin secretion.

Takamatsu J, Mozai T, Kuma K.

We describe a patient with TSH-induced hyperthyroidism successfully treated with bromocriptine. A 25-yr-old woman was found to have hyperthyroidism due to excessive TSH secretion; no pituitary tumor was found. Her serum T4 level ranged between 21.9 and 25.9 micrograms/dl and that of T3 between 283 and 314 ng/dl. Serum TSH was between 5 and 9 microU/ml with an exaggerated response to TRH. Basal metabolic rate was +26 to +38%. Serum PRL was also elevated (79 ng/ml). Administration of bromocriptine for 4 months decreased serum TSH and PRL levels to normal with a concomitant fall in levels of serum T3 and T4. Regression of the clinical manifestations of hyperthyroidism occurred during bromocriptine drug therapy. These results suggest that reduction in hypothalamic dopaminergic tone may have contributed to the inappropriately increased TSH secretion in the patient.

Further, to quote from an invitro study

"Dopamine (DA) and the dopaminergic agonists bromocriptine and apomorphine inhibit the secretion of TSH as well as that of PRL by rat anterior pituitary (AP) cells in monolayer culture... It is concluded that the dopaminergic stimulus causing the inhibition of TSH and PRL secretion from rat AP cells in culture is mediated via a high affinity DA receptor present upon lactotrophs and thyrotrophs and that this receptor has similar characteristics on the two cell types." (1)

(1) Endocrinology 1983 May;112(5):1567-77

Dopamine receptors on intact anterior pituitary cells in culture: functional association with the inhibition of prolactin and thyrotropin.

Foord SM, Peters JR, Dieguez C, Scanlon MF, Hall R.

 

[Fonz]

There are two problems, Fonz.

First, can you document from the scientific literature that the statement in quotations is true?

Second, according to his thyroid test, his hormone values (TSH and fT4) ARE normal, not depressed. His low total T3 does not mean anything necessarily because he has been using AAS, which lower total thyroid hormone values.

This situation is analogous to the one described in the abstract below. These doctors had to treat this guys AAS induced hypogonadism. First, they alleviated the symtoms by giving him sustanon. Then they treated the hypogonadism with HCG. They could just as easily withheld the sustanon and used onlyHCG, probably speeding his recovery, but prolonging his misery.

People are always looking for black and white answers. Often there aren't any.

Postgrad Med J 1998 Jan;74(867):45-6

Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.

Gill GV.

Endocrine Unit, Walton Hospital, Liverpool, UK.

A case is presented of a young competitive body-builder who abused anabolic steroid drugs and developed profound symptomatic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. With the help of prescribed testosterone (Sustanon) he stopped taking anabolic drugs, and later stopped Sustanon also. Hypogonadism returned, but was successfully treated with weekly injections of human chorionic gonadotropin for three months. Testicular function remained normal thereafter on no treatment. The use of human chorionic gonadotropin should be considered in prolonged hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism due to anabolic steroid abuse

If he goes into a hypocaloric diet right now, he is going to run into problems.
I'll explain why:


1: Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am 2002 Mar;31(1):173-89 Related Articles, Links


Effect of obesity and starvation on thyroid hormone, growth hormone, and cortisol secretion.

Douyon L, Schteingart DE.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Michigan Medical School, 1150 West Medical Center Dr., Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA.

Obesity and starvation have opposing affects on normal physiology and are associated with adaptive changes in hormone secretion. The effects of obesity and starvation on thyroid hormone, GH, and cortisol secretion are summarized in Table 1. Although hypothyroidism is associated with some weight gain, surveys of obese individuals show that less than 10% are hypothyroid. Discrepancies have been reported in some studies, but in untreated obesity, total and free T4, total and free T3, TSH levels, and the TSH response to TRH are normal.

(Check

Some reports suggest an increase in total T3 and decrease in rT3 induced by overfeeding. Treatment of obesity with hypocaloric diets causes changes in thyroid function that resemble sick euthyroid syndrome. Changes consist of a decrease in total T4 and total and free T3 with a corresponding increase in rT3.

(Done

untreated obesity is also associated with low GH levels; however, levels of IGF-1 are normal. GH-binding protein levels are increased and the GH response to GHRH is decreased. These changes are reversed by drastic weight reduction. Cortisol levels are abnormal in people with abdominal obesity who exhibit an increase in urinary free cortisol but exhibit normal or decreased serum cortisol and normal ACTH levels. These changes are explained by an increase in cortisol clearance. There is also an increased response to CRH. Treatment of obesity with very low calorie diets causes a decrease in serum cortisol explained by a decrease in cortisol-binding proteins. The increase in cortisol secretion seen in patients with abdominal obesity may contribute to the metabolic syndrome (insulin resistance, glucose intolerance, dyslipidemia, and hypertension).

(Check

States of chronic starvation such as seen in anorexia nervosa are also associated with changes in thyroid hormone, GH, and cortisol secretion. There is a decrease in total and free T4 and T3, and an increase in rT3 similar to findings in sick euthyroid syndrome.

(Done

The TSH response to TRH is diminished and, in severe cases, thyroid-binding protein levels are decreased. In regards to GH, there is an increase in GH secretion with a decrease in IGF-1 levels. GH responses to GHRH are increased. The [table: see text] changes in cortisol secretion in patients with anorexia nervosa resemble depression. They present with increased urinary free cortisol and serum cortisol levels but without changes in ACTH levels. In contrast to the findings observed in obesity, the ACTH response to CRH is suppressed, suggesting an increased secretion of CRH. The endocrine changes observed in obesity and starvation may complicate the diagnosis of primary endocrine diseases. The increase in cortisol secretion in obesity needs to be distinguished from Cushing's syndrome, the decrease in thyroid hormone levels in anorexia nervosa needs to be distinguished from secondary hypothyroidism, and the increase in cortisol secretion observed in anorexia nervosa requires a differential diagnosis with primary depressive disorder.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12055988 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Hypocaloric diets actually see More T4 being converted into the metabolically active rT3(Reverse T3), than the mnetabolically active T3.
That is EXACTLY what he doesn't want right now.

He needs to bump up caloric intake to maintenace levels, so that more T3 is converted from T4......no rT3 as I have previously stated.
Combine this with a dopamine agonist such as bromo, and his recovery should be on its way.

Fonz

 

[Triple J]

This is a great thread.

Here is some conjecture based on my observations - if stimulants like ECA cause you to feel cold vs. warm, and you get deca dick like symptoms, this is probably a clue that they are impacting your thyroid and perhaps subsequent prolactin levels in a negative way.

Gurus please confirm if this makes sense to you.

 

[nandi12]

Here is some conjecture based on my observations - if stimulants like ECA cause you to feel cold vs. warm, and you get deca dick like symptoms, this is probably a clue that they are impacting your thyroid and perhaps subsequent prolactin levels in a negative way.

I think you are confusing the adrenergic effects of ephedrine (fight of flight type effects) like piloerection (goose pimples), shrivled up dick (ever try to get it up on amphetamines?), etc with thyroid and prolactin effects.

BTW, I agree 100% Fonz that he needs to maintain an isocaloric diet to ensure T4 to T3 conversion. But a person can still bump up their metabolic rate with ECA and maintain an isocaloric state. They just have to eat more.