HRT with Deca Question

[ColtSSBR]

For you guys on HRT and prescribed Nandrolone, how long do you run the Nandrolone before taking a break? How long do you take before starting the Nandrolone again?

I'm just wondering what everyone else does because some feel that you never have to come off the Nandrolone at HRT dosages.

 

[ColtSSBR]

Anybody else with experience got any input on this?
One suggestion was 20 weeks...

 

[Zyglamail]

At trt doses you really dont need to cycle it.

 

[ColtSSBR]

At trt doses you really dont need to cycle it.

Thanks for the response and this seems to be a common opinion. I am curious, at what level should one consider cycling the Test/Deca? If I recall correctly, I belive the max suggested TRT dosage of both is 600mg a week (combination of both Test/Deca).

 

[XMAN.]

IMO if u want to run it all year long for it's health benefits as part of ur hrt regimen don't go above 50mg /week , or u can do 10-12 weeks cycles at 100-150mg/week twice a year , anything from 200mg and above is considered a regular mass cycle.

 

[ColtSSBR]

IMO if u want to run it all year long for it's health benefits as part of ur hrt regimen don't go above 50mg /week , or u can do 10-12 weeks cycles at 100-150mg/week twice a year , anything from 200mg and above is considered a regular mass cycle.

Thanks for the info.

 

[miplank]

lots of good information on www.fitnessparadiseworld.com

 

[Zyglamail]

Thanks for the response and this seems to be a common opinion. I am curious, at what level should one consider cycling the Test/Deca? If I recall correctly, I belive the max suggested TRT dosage of both is 600mg a week (combination of both Test/Deca).

400 T/200 D is the max for TRT dosing.

 

[XMAN.]

400 T/200 D is the max for TRT dosing.

yeah that's what the pros do to maintain mass all year long, but it isn't the case of most of us here, 600mg of roids is not hrt that's a cycle.
btw ColtSSBR can u plz post ur stats , years of training and if ur using some hgh too in ur hrt or any other peptides.

 

[ColtSSBR]

yeah that's what the pros do to maintain mass all year long, but it isn't the case of most of us here, 600mg of roids is not hrt that's a cycle.
btw ColtSSBR can u plz post ur stats , years of training and if ur using some hgh too in ur hrt or any other peptides.

Sure,
35 Yrs old,
5' 9"
200Lbs
Around 14% BF
About 16 years of training in one form or another.
No HGH- my IGF-1 levels are naturally around 320-350.
TRT consists of: Test Cyp, Oxandrolone, and Nandrolone.

 

[Zyglamail]

yeah that's what the pros do to maintain mass all year long, but it isn't the case of most of us here, 600mg of roids is not hrt that's a cycle.
btw ColtSSBR can u plz post ur stats , years of training and if ur using some hgh too in ur hrt or any other peptides.

Depends on your definition of TRT. Are you being treated to bring up test numbers or are you being treated for symptoms of low test? The dosing prescribed for the 2 is very different.

A regular doc will treat you for low clinical test by bringing you into mid test level range but that often times is NOT enough test to overcome symptoms of low test due to aging.

HRT/TRT clinics dont treat for low lab numbers, they treat symptoms caused by low test such as depression, lack of focus and clarity of thought, apathy in life etc. To overcome these symptoms for a guy 225lbs often the dose of test is 400mg/wk.

What bodybuilders do to maintain is irrelevant here, trt applies to folks generally 35-40+, not some 25 year old bodybuilder who is naturally at the peak of bodily function. 400mg/wk test for those guys may be a maintenance cycle but the rest of their bodies ability to heal, grow, repair etc is all in its prime. That is not the case for the 40 year old man. We have greatly reduced levels of hormones across the board, our mitochondria numbers are greatly reduced and what 400mg/wk test does for someone 25 is a lot more than the same dose has for someone 40+.


If you talk to various people who are getting trt through a general practitioner (or the docs themselves) and from a TRT/HRT specialist you will find what I am telling you is pretty normal for a guy >225lbs.

 

[XMAN.]

Depends on your definition of TRT. Are you being treated to bring up test numbers or are you being treated for symptoms of low test? The dosing prescribed for the 2 is very different.

A regular doc will treat you for low clinical test by bringing you into mid test level range but that often times is NOT enough test to overcome symptoms of low test due to aging.

HRT/TRT clinics dont treat for low lab numbers, they treat symptoms caused by low test such as depression, lack of focus and clarity of thought, apathy in life etc. To overcome these symptoms for a guy 225lbs often the dose of test is 400mg/wk.

What bodybuilders do to maintain is irrelevant here, trt applies to folks generally 35-40+, not some 25 year old bodybuilder who is naturally at the peak of bodily function. 400mg/wk test for those guys may be a maintenance cycle but the rest of their bodies ability to heal, grow, repair etc is all in its prime. That is not the case for the 40 year old man. We have greatly reduced levels of hormones across the board, our mitochondria numbers are greatly reduced and what 400mg/wk test does for someone 25 is a lot more than the same dose has for someone 40+.


If you talk to various people who are getting trt through a general practitioner (or the docs themselves) and from a TRT/HRT specialist you will find what I am telling you is pretty normal for a guy >225lbs.

thx for the info Zyg. u really know ur shit
but i have one question what do u think is the norm for a 200lbs mid 30's dude like ColtSSBR and myself ? test , nand , hgh...... for treating symptoms and anti aging of course.

 

[ColtSSBR]

Depends on your definition of TRT. Are you being treated to bring up test numbers or are you being treated for symptoms of low test? The dosing prescribed for the 2 is very different.

In my case, I was put on TRT for both low test and the symptoms that follow. At 34 (started TRT a year ago), my total test was -300 and I felt like what I assume a zombie would feel like.

thx for the info Zyg. u really know ur shit
but i have one question what do u think is the norm for a 200lbs mid 30's dude like ColtSSBR and myself ? test , nand , hgh...... for treating symptoms and anti aging of course.

Very good question and I'm curious about this myself since there seems to be greatly different opinions on this subject. Although it has been said that at TRT dosages one does not need to stop taking any of their medications, I personally feel this is not really the best for the long term health concerns. Maybe keep the Testosterone and only use the other medications for a certain time frame before taking a break.

 

[Zyglamail]

what do u think is the norm for a 200lbs mid 30's dude like ColtSSBR and myself ? test , nand , hgh...... for treating symptoms and anti aging of course.

Generally speaking I think a lot of it has to do with your blood work. TRT clinics want you to feel good and thats generally done by giving you the most they can without knocking your blood work out of whack.

Im speculating because I am sure places differ but if you have >175lbs lean mass then I wouldnt be surprised to see 400mg/wk test prescribed if all your initial bloodwork comes back in very good order. Generally speaking you will be getting bloodwork every 6 months (if not more) so adding deca, var etc to the mix may throw things off kilter and that would show in your next bloodwork test, at that point they would alter you script based on the labs again and tweak stuff until your labs get back into a good range.

This is all going to vary from person to person but these places have emperical evidence from treating hundreds if not thousands of clients to call upon. If they consult with you and you tell them your eating clean, exercising and have a nice BF% and your blood work back its up then you can safely run a decent amount of test without throwing your numbers to out of whack.

However, if your bluffing and not eating as good as you should be or perhaps drinking more than you let on, your bloodwork will show that as well next time you get labs done and your script will be adjusted accordingly.

If you want more AAS and dont have any hereditary issues throwing off your labs, then eat good, avoid overindulging on booze etc and you can get away with running more while maintaining safe labs. Now of course there are always going to be people susceptible to high BP or high cholesterol and they wont be able to take advantage of higher doses but for the most part our bodies reflect our lifestyle and as long as we do our part to keep labs numbers good we should be able to safely run decent amounts of test.

While these HRT clinics are obviously out to make money good clinics will tell you their policies and prices right up front, there wont be any surprises. Yes, your going to pay more than seeing a general practitioner but your also going to get more and have more consistent dosing which in the long run will make you feel better.

A lot of folks stick to UG gear and self monitor TRT because of the cost but when the dea knocks on your door and you have to drop 20K for a lawyers retainer fee do the math and let me know if your still ahead by going UG.

 

[XMAN.]

Generally speaking I think a lot of it has to do with your blood work. TRT clinics want you to feel good and thats generally done by giving you the most they can without knocking your blood work out of whack.

Im speculating because I am sure places differ but if you have >175lbs lean mass then I wouldnt be surprised to see 400mg/wk test prescribed if all your initial bloodwork comes back in very good order. Generally speaking you will be getting bloodwork every 6 months (if not more) so adding deca, var etc to the mix may throw things off kilter and that would show in your next bloodwork test, at that point they would alter you script based on the labs again and tweak stuff until your labs get back into a good range.

This is all going to vary from person to person but these places have emperical evidence from treating hundreds if not thousands of clients to call upon. If they consult with you and you tell them your eating clean, exercising and have a nice BF% and your blood work back its up then you can safely run a decent amount of test without throwing your numbers to out of whack.

However, if your bluffing and not eating as good as you should be or perhaps drinking more than you let on, your bloodwork will show that as well next time you get labs done and your script will be adjusted accordingly.

If you want more AAS and dont have any hereditary issues throwing off your labs, then eat good, avoid overindulging on booze etc and you can get away with running more while maintaining safe labs. Now of course there are always going to be people susceptible to high BP or high cholesterol and they wont be able to take advantage of higher doses but for the most part our bodies reflect our lifestyle and as long as we do our part to keep labs numbers good we should be able to safely run decent amounts of test.

While these HRT clinics are obviously out to make money good clinics will tell you their policies and prices right up front, there wont be any surprises. Yes, your going to pay more than seeing a general practitioner but your also going to get more and have more consistent dosing which in the long run will make you feel better.

A lot of folks stick to UG gear and self monitor TRT because of the cost but when the dea knocks on your door and you have to drop 20K for a lawyers retainer fee do the math and let me know if your still ahead by going UG.

thx for ur fast response Zyg , if u don't mind can u plz post ur hrt protocol and stats , just curious to see what a veteran like u does.

 

[Zyglamail]

im 5'10 @ approx 227lbs. Current trt is 400wk/test cyp and about 160mg/wk deca for some nagging tendon injuries. My blood work was near perfect in terms of everything except test was on low end and E was a bit on the high end before trt so I take one 1.2mg arimidex 3 days a week. For the most part my diet is clean, little sugar or processed foods (ie bread, pasta etc) basically nothing out of a box, dairy in moderation. I also avoid high glycemic carbs such as potatoes and rice but will occassionally have barley (lot higher in fiber than rice, much lower glycemic load). I try and stick to whole foods and fresh fruits and veggies with occasional canned beans (garbanzo, kidney etc) for some extra cals. Im on a slightly reduced caloric intake to cut some fat and currently exchanging about a pound of fat for a pound of muscle every week while maintaining the same bodyweight. When you cut out junk food and processed foods it can be hard to get enough cals.

 

[XMAN.]

im 5'10 @ approx 227lbs. Current trt is 400wk/test cyp and about 160mg/wk deca for some nagging tendon injuries. My blood work was near perfect in terms of everything except test was on low end and E was a bit on the high end before trt so I take one 1.2mg arimidex 3 days a week. For the most part my diet is clean, little sugar or processed foods (ie bread, pasta etc) basically nothing out of a box, dairy in moderation. I also avoid high glycemic carbs such as potatoes and rice but will occassionally have barley (lot higher in fiber than rice, much lower glycemic load). I try and stick to whole foods and fresh fruits and veggies with occasional canned beans (garbanzo, kidney etc) for some extra cals. Im on a slightly reduced caloric intake to cut some fat and currently exchanging about a pound of fat for a pound of muscle every week while maintaining the same bodyweight. When you cut out junk food and processed foods it can be hard to get enough cals.

thx again Zyg

 

[rockdoc]

im 5'10 @ approx 227lbs. Current trt is 400wk/test cyp and about 160mg/wk deca for some nagging tendon injuries. My blood work was near perfect in terms of everything except test was on low end and E was a bit on the high end before trt so I take one 1.2mg arimidex 3 days a week. For the most part my diet is clean, little sugar or processed foods (ie bread, pasta etc) basically nothing out of a box, dairy in moderation. I also avoid high glycemic carbs such as potatoes and rice but will occassionally have barley (lot higher in fiber than rice, much lower glycemic load). I try and stick to whole foods and fresh fruits and veggies with occasional canned beans (garbanzo, kidney etc) for some extra cals. Im on a slightly reduced caloric intake to cut some fat and currently exchanging about a pound of fat for a pound of muscle every week while maintaining the same bodyweight. When you cut out junk food and processed foods it can be hard to get enough cals.

I know numbers aren't that significant but I'm just curious if you wouldn't mind sharing what your test numbers are at 400mg/wk.

 

[Zyglamail]

Im about due to get labs again, but I suspect they will be over 1100.

 

[rockdoc]

Im about due to get labs again, but I suspect they will be over 1100.

Wow, I guess it really is a very individual thing. My last lab came back at 2465 on 300 mg test. I'm guessing that at 400 it would be up around 3000. I'm 44 yrs. old. 6ft. 200. Do you think its an just an age thing or physiological differences between people along with body weight/composition?

 

[XMAN.]

Wow, I guess it really is a very individual thing. My last lab came back at 2465 on 300 mg test. I'm guessing that at 400 it would be up around 3000. I'm 44 yrs. old. 6ft. 200. Do you think its an just an age thing or physiological differences between people along with body weight/composition?

i think it's both , age and physiological differences , too many variables in the process that's why the only way for a person to be exact on his individual dose is by blood tests.

 

[Mad_Max21]

Check out www.fitnessparadiseworld.com shit ton of info there too!

 

[Zyglamail]

According to a 2001 study where 61 average men where part of a 16 week trial the average test levels where as follows....

total test:
125 mg group-570 ng/dl
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl

you can read full article here...

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/reprint/281/6/E1172

 

[XMAN.]

According to a 2001 study where 61 average men where part of a 16 week trial the average test levels where as follows....

total test:
125 mg group-570 ng/dl
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl

you can read full article here...

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

yeah i read it somewhere , it really changed my mind on hrt dosing, i use to be afraid from doses higher than 200mg/week but nowadays after reading more on this issue and from ur explanations Zyg on it in several threads i'm now convinced with this new science that was hidden before cuz of the war worldwide on steroids and the social taboos on it , dunno y politicians and responsable ppl even in the scientific community are so conventional and spreading these horror stories around the use of steroids and blaming every death or accidents on steroids related to the users instead of ignorance and misuse, i thx the internet and the forums like EF that let us share our knowledge and experiences with ppl worldwide and finally clear things up and trash these horror stories for ever.

 

[Zyglamail]

xman, if ya havent already read the study in the link. Whats interesting is the 2 low dose groups actually had worse sides than the 300mg group. Im guessing because their natty T levels where higher than what the low dose exo T provided yet the exo T shut down nattu production for an overall negeative effect on total T and thus the sides. Sides seem to be pretty limited for the 3 mid groups and it wasnt really until the 600mg group did things start to heat up. My guess is this study and others like along with empirical first hand evidence from clients and their blood work help drive most TRT docs to the conclusion that 400mg/wk was the upper end of the safe dose. It provided max test levels, usually well above normal range, with little to no sides in those with an otherwise clean bill of health.

 

[XMAN.]

xman, if ya havent already read the study in the link. Whats interesting is the 2 low dose groups actually had worse sides than the 300mg group. Im guessing because their natty T levels where higher than what the low dose exo T provided yet the exo T shut down nattu production for an overall negeative effect on total T and thus the sides. Sides seem to be pretty limited for the 3 mid groups and it wasnt really until the 600mg group did things start to heat up. My guess is this study and others like along with empirical first hand evidence from clients and their blood work help drive most TRT docs to the conclusion that 400mg/wk was the upper end of the safe dose. It provided max test levels, usually well above normal range, with little to no sides in those with an otherwise clean bill of health.

yeah i read it and i copied it to my hard drive , thx for the link Zyg , and ur right TRT has entered a new era

 

[miplank]