HRT questions, WTF?

[burnthiscorpse]

I'm not on, nor am I seeking to be on HRT at this point in my life (34) Unless at some point I need it sooner than ezpected.

I have 2 questions actually though:

1) I see alot of different TRT doses even from guys that arent self medicated. But is it really that drastic? Like If I require 125 mg wk of test E to keep me in the higher percentile of "normal" can joe schmoe really need 250 wk to get the same results? Obviously my body is going to react different than someone elses but half the dose for this guy, double for that guy, almost 3 times amout for the next guy?

2) For TRT, This makes me angry...If there is another reason for this then someone please fill me in. Some doc gives a guy 200mg test E every 2 weeks. I have also seen a case where a guy was getting 300mg every 3 weeks. Even every 10 days. WTF!!?? Isnt constantly fluctuating test levels BAD? Test E every 2 weeks? Your T levels would be like a yo yo. Why do these docs seem to not take this into consideration? Or am I missing something?

 

[Zyglamail]

I'm not on, nor am I seeking to be on HRT at this point in my life (34) Unless at some point I need it sooner than ezpected.

I have 2 questions actually though:

1) I see alot of different TRT doses even from guys that arent self medicated. But is it really that drastic? Like If I require 125 mg wk of test E to keep me in the higher percentile of "normal" can joe schmoe really need 250 wk to get the same results? Obviously my body is going to react different than someone elses but half the dose for this guy, double for that guy, almost 3 times amout for the next guy?

Here is my take on it. There are a lot of differences in what a doc/lab thinks is normal. For example just search the web for normal range of serum test, the top end is all over the place from 800 to 1300.

A guy who is 6'3" 250 will likely need more than a guy who is 5'5" 150lbs also.

But at the end of the day I think one of the big differences is the lower doses usually come from docs who do not specialize in HRT. They are unsure how to deal with sides should the arise and they want to get by with the minimum.

2) For TRT, This makes me angry...If there is another reason for this then someone please fill me in. Some doc gives a guy 200mg test E every 2 weeks. I have also seen a case where a guy was getting 300mg every 3 weeks. Even every 10 days. WTF!!?? Isnt constantly fluctuating test levels BAD? Test E every 2 weeks? Your T levels would be like a yo yo. Why do these docs seem to not take this into consideration? Or am I missing something?

Yes, the test rollercoatser, as I had claimed on another thread for the poor guy getting an injection 1x every 3 weeks is worse than not getting an injection at all. Once again, these kinds of dosing schemes are generally recommended by general practitioners or docs who want to help but really dont know what they are doing.

 

[pbhardbody]

Here is my take on it. There are a lot of differences in what a doc/lab thinks is normal. For example just search the web for normal range of serum test, the top end is all over the place from 800 to 1300.

A guy who is 6'3" 250 will likely need more than a guy who is 5'5" 150lbs also.

But at the end of the day I think one of the big differences is the lower doses usually come from docs who do not specialize in HRT. They are unsure how to deal with sides should the arise and they want to get by with the minimum.

Yes, the test rollercoatser, as I had claimed on another thread for the poor guy getting an injection 1x every 3 weeks is worse than not getting an injection at all. Once again, these kinds of dosing schemes are generally recommended by general practitioners or docs who want to help but really dont know what they are doing.

I think your assessment is spot on Zyg.

Serum Testosterone ranges vary based on the individuals age.
For example a man that is 40 has a range of 280 - 800.
A man that is 63 has a range of 280 - 1100.

So that may explain why you see varying top ends.

Agreed - the size of the person and how well their system utilizes the test that is injected is going to play a role in how quickly the test serum level goes back up.

Unfortunately I think you are right about "docs who want to help but really dont know what they are doing." too.

If you are 30 or older, go to an HRT clinic - this is their specialty.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

when my natural test stops being satisfactory then I will certainly seek HRT. I used a HRT clinic in fla. as a matter of fact when I was in my early 20's just to get test to cycle with. But this time I would have my doc (who is awsome) send me to an endocrinologist. If they suggest things like andro gel or whatever then I will go to another one. I also will not tolerate anything other than 1x wk injections. If i need to pin myself in front of the guy I will. But I am NOT driving 30-40 min 1x wk so some shit bag can JAM a needle in my glute and not aspirate and plunge it way to fast.
If I have to pay for the test myself then thats fine. But I'm not going to pay ridiculous HRT clinic prices. Most of us know how much a 10ml vial of test is. Its all within +/- $5 for UG. For pharm HRT test, sure, with a script...I could see $100 but no more.

 

[Zyglamail]

If I have to pay for the test myself then thats fine. But I'm not going to pay ridiculous HRT clinic prices. Most of us know how much a 10ml vial of test is. Its all within +/- $5 for UG. For pharm HRT test, sure, with a script...I could see $100 but no more.

There is something to be said for having human grad test and I will admit its a bit more that $100 for 10 ml jug of 200mg/ml but aside from that and a few hundred for a very extensive blood test there are no other costs. Doesnt get much easier than that.

 

[Zyglamail]

If I have to pay for the test myself then thats fine. But I'm not going to pay ridiculous HRT clinic prices. Most of us know how much a 10ml vial of test is. Its all within +/- $5 for UG. For pharm HRT test, sure, with a script...I could see $100 but no more.

There is something to be said for having human grade test and I will admit its a bit more that $100 for 10 ml jug of 200mg/ml but aside from that and a few hundred for a very extensive blood test there are no other costs. Doesnt get much easier than that.

 

[thelion2005]

Here my perspective based on my Dr's. input at the U of Michigan Hospital, what I've read here, and my own experience. My Dr is Anti-Aging and monitors my entire HRT program including exercise, diet, recovery, sups and drugs with exams and extensive blood testing.
HRT for me is:
100 mg per week of test, either bio-ident topical or injections. Any test works on me.
1 iu of HGH eod
0.25mg a-dex twice a week
Some whey, cre, muti-vit
Lots of protein and low sugar/starches
Push/Pull routine
8-9 hours rest per day
This puts me at the best of each tested range at 67 years young.
Started about 6 years ago when I was really slowing down.

For cycles I have tried many stacks and have settled into just 250 mg test twice a week,
1 iu HGH eod
0.5 a-dex twice a week
Lots of sups and food
Lots of sleep ... 10 hours.
And I get all the sides including agression.
But I get 250 at 6' BIG and scare people. LOL

 

[hayjay7]

I'm the poor soul getting 1x/every 3 weeks.

I think Zyg is correct in that my doc wants to help, but really doesn't know what he is doing. He's a urologist, so that should say something right there.

There's also a part of me that thinks the every 3 weeks has something to do with insurance. And/or he'd rather be able to charge for an office visit than to simply send me home with a vial and pins.

I'm going to work on my doc some more, but if I don't get anywhere, I'll be pursuing other avenues.

Thanks to everybody here for the information. Without it, I probably would have thought this is how it's supposed to go.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

I'm the poor soul getting 1x/every 3 weeks.

I think Zyg is correct in that my doc wants to help, but really doesn't know what he is doing. He's a urologist, so that should say something right there.

There's also a part of me that thinks the every 3 weeks has something to do with insurance. And/or he'd rather be able to charge for an office visit than to simply send me home with a vial and pins.

I'm going to work on my doc some more, but if I don't get anywhere, I'll be pursuing other avenues.

Thanks to everybody here for the information. Without it, I probably would have thought this is how it's supposed to go.

Bro, either get some more test and hit yourself once a week or go see an endocrinologist, or find a hrt doc. As Zyg said, once every 3 weeks is just as bad as low levels and no pins at all. Screw your doc that you currently have.

 

[firewally1966]

I was getting 200mg 1 time a month..now up to 200mg twice a month and set to test again at the end of August..Doc put me on androgel first..didnt do much..so he went to the good stuff...test cyp..but he is just general practitioner...not endo...so it will be slow coming on what level he wants me to be at...but after my next test..if he keeps fooling around..I'll boost it myself with UG stuff or ask him to refer me to an endo...my insurance covers me pretty good..it was the same amount for 6 bottles as it was for three..

 

[Zyglamail]

I was getting 200mg 1 time a month..now up to 200mg twice a month and set to test again at the end of August..Doc put me on androgel first..didnt do much..so he went to the good stuff...test cyp..but he is just general practitioner...not endo...so it will be slow coming on what level he wants me to be at...but after my next test..if he keeps fooling around..I'll boost it myself with UG stuff or ask him to refer me to an endo...my insurance covers me pretty good..it was the same amount for 6 bottles as it was for three..

This is the main difference between HRT clinics/endos who know what they are doing and the ever careful doc who doesnt quite know what they are doing.

Just like in any profession if you have 1 hrt patient a year as a general practitioner you dont have a lot of practical experience to call upon. An HRT doc will look at your initial extensive labs, your current health (weight, height etc) and BAM come close to nailing what you need right out of the gate, none of this dabbling around with all the preamble BS.

 

[straitedge52]

I'm the poor soul getting 1x/every 3 weeks.

I think Zyg is correct in that my doc wants to help, but really doesn't know what he is doing. He's a urologist, so that should say something right there.

There's also a part of me that thinks the every 3 weeks has something to do with insurance. And/or he'd rather be able to charge for an office visit than to simply send me home with a vial and pins.

I'm going to work on my doc some more, but if I don't get anywhere, I'll be pursuing other avenues.

Thanks to everybody here for the information. Without it, I probably would have thought this is how it's supposed to go.

Your Doc means well...he just doesn't know what he means. Don't get hung up on the insurance deal...grab some UG Test Cyp and some pins and get busy. Otherwise you are just jerking off.

The way he has you going it's a wonder you haven't gone friggin nuts already with the yo yo effect.

Don't push him too hard...be dumb like a fox.

 

[hayjay7]

Your Doc means well...he just doesn't know what he means. Don't get hung up on the insurance deal...grab some UG Test Cyp and some pins and get busy. Otherwise you are just jerking off.

The way he has you going it's a wonder you haven't gone friggin nuts already with the yo yo effect.

Don't push him too hard...be dumb like a fox.

Ok, here's a quick update.

I talked to my doc this week. I asked him about more frequent injections and his concerns were:
1. Will insurance cover it?
2. Are you willing to come in more often?

So, since the obvious answer to #2 was yes since I was asking about it, I'm quite concerned with his insurance issue. Also, since he wants me to come in, means, he's not willing to send me home and self pin.

I'm starting the process of looking elsewhere.

 

[Zyglamail]

Tell him your insurance wont cover the extra office visits because they are not necessary but they obviously cover the script so that leaves one option, you pin yourself. Its not like you are wanting any more, just what your getting spread out more frequent. Insurance is such BS.

 

[Discreet User]

I've spoken with several doctors about TRT.

My dermatologist likes to see his patients at 1500 on a reference interval of 280-800.

My dad's general doctor likes to see his patients at between 800-1000 on a reference interval of 280-800.

Docs seem to have different theories regarding where test levels should be.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

I've spoken with several doctors about TRT.

My dermatologist likes to see his patients at 1500 on a reference interval of 280-800.

My dad's general doctor likes to see his patients at between 800-1000 on a reference interval of 280-800.

Docs seem to have different theories regarding where test levels should be.

The whole medical profession(99%) are in the stone age regarding test.

@ hayjay7.....tell your fucking doc to give you the goddamn pin and watch you do it so he can see your not a fucktard.

 

[Zyglamail]

I've spoken with several doctors about TRT.

My dermatologist likes to see his patients at 1500 on a reference interval of 280-800.

My dad's general doctor likes to see his patients at between 800-1000 on a reference interval of 280-800.

Docs seem to have different theories regarding where test levels should be.

One thing is important to remember, treatment andropause is based on quality of life. So if getting your test above 1k makes you feel good, gets rid of depression etc and all other labs are healthy then the addition of the test is not causing any more harm than the plethora of possible sides listed for any other prescription med.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

One thing is important to remember, treatment andropause is based on quality of life. So if getting your test above 1k makes you feel good, gets rid of depression etc and all other labs are healthy then the addition of the test is not causing any more harm than the plethora of possible sides listed for any other prescription med.

Exactly.....


Here take this medication for your (insert problem here) - Somethingitis. Oh, side effects....nothing much except possibly stroke, blood clots, Kidney failure, liver carcinoma, getting the shits, and little garden gnomes living in your ass.


They will perscribe that shit at the drop of a hat. Literally. But they completely freak out about the effects of 100mg of test wk.

 

[Power36]

dermatoligist talking T levels? out of total curiosity what the heck??

200mg Test Cyp 10cc from a retail pharmacy is about $49-69 depending on what plan you have with them...its CHEAP....I about shit since the first clinic I went to sold it from their in house pharmacy for like $250, when I switched doctors and picked it up at the pharmacy I was like DANG cheap...

Also for those of you who do have "bad" labs and all the symptoms, but strugglign to find a doctor that knows what the hell they are doing..there are clinics you can fax your labwork, then see a doctor in your area for a one time visit, then get scripts for a year of T, GH, Arimidex, and possibly var, deca, winnny.....yes if you look long and hard enough you can find totally legit clinics that you would only need ti see once a year or see a dcotor near you...prices will be much higher than you getting a script on your own FYI

Yes if you got a legit doc offering you a script or wanting to sell you in house HRT from their pharmacy, take the scripts and go to a retail pharmacy it will be much cheaper!

 

[Discreet User]

dermatoligist talking T levels? out of total curiosity what the heck??

200mg Test Cyp 10cc from a retail pharmacy is about $49-69 depending on what plan you have with them...its CHEAP....I about shit since the first clinic I went to sold it from their in house pharmacy for like $250, when I switched doctors and picked it up at the pharmacy I was like DANG cheap...

Also for those of you who do have "bad" labs and all the symptoms, but strugglign to find a doctor that knows what the hell they are doing..there are clinics you can fax your labwork, then see a doctor in your area for a one time visit, then get scripts for a year of T, GH, Arimidex, and possibly var, deca, winnny.....yes if you look long and hard enough you can find totally legit clinics that you would only need ti see once a year or see a dcotor near you...prices will be much higher than you getting a script on your own FYI

Yes if you got a legit doc offering you a script or wanting to sell you in house HRT from their pharmacy, take the scripts and go to a retail pharmacy it will be much cheaper!

It seems that where I live, every doctor is in this game

It's funny how this came up. I went to the dermatologist once to review some lab work regarding my skin.

Somehow, the dermatologist had also received the results of my TRT blood-work.

He opens up the results, starts reading them, and the first thing he says is: "You're testosterone is low"!

 

[Power36]

haha maybe a change for the better!

 

[hayjay7]

The whole medical profession(99%) are in the stone age regarding test.

@ hayjay7.....tell your fucking doc to give you the goddamn pin and watch you do it so he can see your not a fucktard.

I like this answer.

I'm just gonna move on. Even if I have to pay out of pocket.

 

[ArmaniAK47]

I'm not on, nor am I seeking to be on HRT at this point in my life (34) Unless at some point I need it sooner than ezpected.

I have 2 questions actually though:

1) I see alot of different TRT doses even from guys that arent self medicated. But is it really that drastic? Like If I require 125 mg wk of test E to keep me in the higher percentile of "normal" can joe schmoe really need 250 wk to get the same results? Obviously my body is going to react different than someone elses but half the dose for this guy, double for that guy, almost 3 times amout for the next guy?

2) For TRT, This makes me angry...If there is another reason for this then someone please fill me in. Some doc gives a guy 200mg test E every 2 weeks. I have also seen a case where a guy was getting 300mg every 3 weeks. Even every 10 days. WTF!!?? Isnt constantly fluctuating test levels BAD? Test E every 2 weeks? Your T levels would be like a yo yo. Why do these docs seem to not take this into consideration? Or am I missing something?

Just from experience the every 2 weeks really isn't that bad..

At 200mgs of cypionate every 2 weeks I felt low and down for the last few days but nothing drastic..

At the 400mg dose I feel fine after two weeks..

I'm now at 400mgs every 10 days.

My Endocrinologist bases it all on blood levels at their lowest (just before the next shot)

My testosterone was in the high 700's 16 days after a 400mg shot.. He said it was probably in the high 900's during the higher times.. I got him to increase it anyways, to 400mg/10days.

 

[Discreet User]

Just from experience the every 2 weeks really isn't that bad..

At 200mgs of cypionate every 2 weeks I felt low and down for the last few days but nothing drastic..

At the 400mg dose I feel fine after two weeks..

I'm now at 400mgs every 10 days.

My Endocrinologist bases it all on blood levels at their lowest (just before the next shot)

My testosterone was in the high 700's 16 days after a 400mg shot.. He said it was probably in the high 900's during the higher times.. I got him to increase it anyways, to 400mg/10days.

I'd like to use your story in contrast with mine to show how Testosterone affects everyone differently.

We are on the same dose, 400mg Test Cypionate.

I had labs done after 5 weeks at 400mg and my serum testosterone came back over 1500!

Check out the thread, page 5: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/l...lding/how-choose-right-hrt-clinic-710857.html

^ I've posted my full baseline & on Test lab results there.

 

[firewally1966]

I'm testing again in a few weeks..I'm getting 200mg every two weeks and am starting to feel slugish again..I'm hoping my dr will boost me to 200 every week but will wait and see..I'm hoping so because my insurance covers my Test Cyp ..really good..but if he doesnt boost me up I'm going to do it myself..does anyone have a recomendation on the best time to test..??..should I do it the morning of my next shot..??..I just had a shot yesterday Aug. 19th and get another on Sept. 2nd

 

[ArmaniAK47]

I'd like to use your story in contrast with mine to show how Testosterone affects everyone differently.

We are on the same dose, 400mg Test Cypionate.

I had labs done after 5 weeks at 400mg and my serum testosterone came back over 1500!

Check out the thread, page 5: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/l...lding/how-choose-right-hrt-clinic-710857.html

^ I've posted my full baseline & on Test lab results there.

Damn that rocks! Did you get it tested 5 weeks after your last injection.. or like 7 days after the last injection? lol

 

[Varga]

A Lot of dosages depend on the person and how much muscle you have too.
The only problem I see with higher dosages is that cholestrol will creep up on you. That in itself can cause big problems over extended periods of time as we all know.
Another thing is that taking too much testosterone for a long period of time our bodies will adjusted to it...then estro will go up and once the muscle cells are pretty much filled in, that testosterone will do nothing else for you but give you sides.

My point is that unless you have muscle that needs that much testosterone there is no need to take that much. Do cycles they work better than being on high dosage HRT in which your body doesnt need it anyway.

 

[Discreet User]

Damn that rocks! Did you get it tested 5 weeks after your last injection.. or like 7 days after the last injection? lol

Blood was drawn 2 days after injection lol

 

[ArmaniAK47]

Blood was drawn 2 days after injection lol

lol nice!

That's about what I want mine to be all the time.. 1500.. or more. ): ]

 

[CheapPinz]

If your levels are only slightly low, versus a guy that has nearly no testosterone, no sex drive, hasn't had a libido for years...it makes sense the amount of medicine prescribed would be different for everyone..That's why a treatment requires an evaluation and diagnostics. If you got x treatment for x diagnosis, you could get it out of a medical version of a vending machine... Don't be mad if you are prescribed less, I'd be glad my baseline was better than the next guys. and keep in mind, a small therapeutic dose can be just as effective for an effective, lean, full, youthful appearance given the right workout, diet, and lifestyle.

 

[hayjay7]

If your levels are only slightly low, versus a guy that has nearly no testosterone, no sex drive, hasn't had a libido for years...it makes sense the amount of medicine prescribed would be different for everyone..That's why a treatment requires an evaluation and diagnostics. If you got x treatment for x diagnosis, you could get it out of a medical version of a vending machine... Don't be mad if you are prescribed less, I'd be glad my baseline was better than the next guys. and keep in mind, a small therapeutic dose can be just as effective for an effective, lean, full, youthful appearance given the right workout, diet, and lifestyle.

QFT, IMO.

I know my doc's protocol isn't optimal and I'm working on that, but my libido is up and I've seriously dropped a LOT of body fat in the 6 months I've been on TRT.
I'm excited to see/feel the changes with the new protocol, which should be worked up this week. To be honest, I'm not real excited about pinning myself every week though

 

[pbhardbody]

QFT, IMO.

I know my doc's protocol isn't optimal and I'm working on that, but my libido is up and I've seriously dropped a LOT of body fat in the 6 months I've been on TRT.
I'm excited to see/feel the changes with the new protocol, which should be worked up this week. To be honest, I'm not real excited about pinning myself every week though

The difference in how you feel by doing once or twice weekly injections will far outweigh the inconvenience of having to do it. IMO anything less than once or twice a week injections does more damage than good, with the roller coaster effect it creates.

If you have a partner/wife train them on doing the injections for you. Makes it much easier.