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How to Use the Medicinal effect and Power of DECA: Its Tea Time with OMEGA

OMEGA

New member
1:
Deca is one of the Most well known compounds in the Bodybuilding community.
Some Love it some hate it.
The hate is do to the irresponsible use of it, with no understanding of its nuances, how in interacts with other compounds, what dose thresholds to abide by, and when to use it. You Need not Worry, this thread will not overly confuse you with Arm Chair Guru Jargon, what it will do is show you how to use this POWERFUL compound and use it to increase the quality of your bodybuilding life now and into the years beyond.

2:
Deca is one of the true few "healing compounds"
Deca along with GH, Igf and Test are the "Doctors" of the Steroid/Hormone world. They can literally HEAL you from the inside out and save you from what may seem to be degenerative problems. Deca is one of the Few AAS/compounds to Strengthen your immune system directly, increase mineral deposition in bone, and strengthen collagen/elastin synthesis. Its so powerful in these cases it has been used over and over in medical settings for aids patients and those with severe injury.

3:
WOW Deca is great right? What the Problem Tea Time OMEGA?
The problem and that though the hormone does not readily convert to estrogen, usually when you stack it with any aromatizable compound you quickly bloat like a loaf of bread, and because the hormone cascade HAS ALREADY STARTED you cant reverse it quickly in time do to the fact that Both Estrogen and Proges level are sky high. These side effect typically manifest themselves as Breast tissue, Stubborn Gut Fat, and No Libido in the worst of cases.

4:Will not tell you what compounds to take to "reverse the sides"
Since that just means you need to buy $$$ more compounds in an already expensive "hobby". What will do is share dosage thresholds and precautions to nip any possible sides in the bud while at the same time harvesting all the benefits spoken of Strengthen your immune system directly, increase mineral deposition in bone, and stengthen collagen/elastin sythesis.

5:How do most people use Deca?
Most use Deca in a 1;2 ratio to Test or even worst 1;1 ratio.
Almost Everyone will get some type of sides at the 1;1 ratio, and Many even at the 1;2 ratio.
Typically those that do the above eat AI's and Cabergoline like candy or have it on hand $$$ to use.

6:If you want to completely avoid any sides with Deca without spending $$$
Observe this golden rule: Use Deca in a 1;3 ratio To all other compounds in your cycle, or 1;4 ratio if your cautious.
NEVER ever use it with Trenbolone. or Nolvadex.

7: ONLY use deca after you have done your first 2 cycles seen here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...l-first-cycle-its-tea-time-omega-716011.html?

8:Dosage on cycles
no more then 300 mgs a week is needed, Much like Testosterone there comes a point where using more hurts you vs helps you( unless your IFBB level)

9:What does Deca Stack Best with?
1: Test
2: Non progestin based orals
3: DHT like Steroids like Masteron, Primobolan, and Winstrol

10:Dosage Thresholds while in HRT and Duration:
Believe in the strategic use of Deca in HRT in "Short controlled bursts" And never more then 150 mgs a week. Some can Literally use as little as 75 mgs a week and still get some benifit.
Duration should be twice a year for 8-10 weeks.




~Fin~
 
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come on bro , that's torture :( i'm gona keep waiting online till u post something new, wish it won't take long.
 
Nice start Mr Omega:

I would like to add a real life tidbit to point #2. I was involved in a major life changing accident a little over 4.5 years ago. I treated my recovery and rehab like a job and have made great progress but still live with significant chronic pain. I started a cycle of deca and test about 3 wks ago 250mg test/ 150 mg deca per wk. Prior to starting this I had come to terms with where I am in life and living with chronic pain. I was very hopeful that I would get some relief but at the same time a little skeptical. The relief I have gotten is so significant that I am getting misty eyed while thinking about it.

Any one that has pain issues (knee shoulder, etc) should seriously look into this substance - it has been a total game changer for me.
 
Nice start Mr Omega:

I would like to add a real life tidbit to point #2. I was involved in a major life changing accident a little over 4.5 years ago. I treated my recovery and rehab like a job and have made great progress but still live with significant chronic pain. I started a cycle of deca and test about 3 wks ago 250mg test/ 150 mg deca per wk. Prior to starting this I had come to terms with where I am in life and living with chronic pain. I was very hopeful that I would get some relief but at the same time a little skeptical. The relief I have gotten is so significant that I am getting misty eyed while thinking about it.

Any one that has pain issues (knee shoulder, etc) should seriously look into this substance - it has been a total game changer for me.

1: thankyou so much for sharing

2: I know EXACTLY how you feel
 
Nice start Mr Omega:

I would like to add a real life tidbit to point #2. I was involved in a major life changing accident a little over 4.5 years ago. I treated my recovery and rehab like a job and have made great progress but still live with significant chronic pain. I started a cycle of deca and test about 3 wks ago 250mg test/ 150 mg deca per wk. Prior to starting this I had come to terms with where I am in life and living with chronic pain. I was very hopeful that I would get some relief but at the same time a little skeptical. The relief I have gotten is so significant that I am getting misty eyed while thinking about it.

Any one that has pain issues (knee shoulder, etc) should seriously look into this substance - it has been a total game changer for me.

Bro axe, so good to hear success like this. There are so many posts on here where guyz dont know what they are doing and mess themselves up so badly. Gr8 post bro!:)

And to you Mr. Omga, this has been so needed for so long. BIG THANKS BRO!:chomp::)
 
i have a narrow space in my AC joint (both shoulders but specially the right one) , the AC ligament conflits with the supra tendon , i've been in phisical therapy for 2 years (on and off) , when i'm on Deca i always feel better , but i always have to stop training for a while and take Ibuprufen (or any other anti inflamatory drug) , i can't press in all angles specially horizontally (flat bench or push ups), nowadays i only do partial reps half way down sometimes one third of the range of motion and even sometimes i only hold the weight up just a bit before locking my elbows. It's been like hell for me these last 2 years and i'm starting to lack motivation , I'm already on HRT and i had a thread in the Life Extension, Andropause & Masters Bodybuilding forum (Deca with HRT): http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/l...use-masters-bodybuilding/deca-hrt-712319.html

So Plz Mr. Omega I really need ur assistance :)
Thx for what ur doing in this thread , waiting for the rest.
 
xman I actually believe in the use of Ibuprofen but NOT every day

my best result have been about 300 mgs at night every 3 rd day

believe me it does something system wide to help ......I have no proof and data as to why

taking it everyday is a bit toxic long term.
 
XMAN.n-andropause-masters-bodybuilding/deca-hrt-712319.html[/url said:
So Plz Mr. Omega I really need ur assistance :)
Thx for what ur doing in this thread , waiting for the rest.

So you can no longer do Militarily Press or Flat?

May i ask how do you side deltoids function and traps? are they ok?
 
Great post Omega! Deca has done me dirt but has also healed some of my injuries so learning how to use it properly is priceless.
 
Hope you guys like it! I only will add one more part, what to stack Deca with

please let me know if this article was good or could be better!!:heart::rose:
 
I've enjoyed it!

I would like to hear, though.. What my alternatives to Dopamine drugs are..

Like Ozzie said; They come with some strong side effects.

What do you guys think of L-DOPA instead?

Is there anything else?

Also:

Semi related; Deca dick? Fuck that- how can we avoid it?
I'd like to remain fucking like crazy and take advantage of Deca's good uses.
 
I've enjoyed it!

I would like to hear, though.. What my alternatives to Dopamine drugs are..

Like Ozzie said; They come with some strong side effects.

What do you guys think of L-DOPA instead?

Is there anything else?

Also:

Semi related; Deca dick? Fuck that- how can we avoid it?
I'd like to remain fucking like crazy and take advantage of Deca's good uses.

it would be nice to know what works on deca if you do get deca dik. I have always heard that Dostinex works like a charm in this instance and now one of the most fundamental drugs to keep on hand during a deca cycle is supposedly bad for you?? I didn't experience any of these sides from Dostinex. please explain.
 
So you can no longer do Militarily Press or Flat?

May i ask how do you side deltoids function and traps? are they ok?

i do bench press and military press but only a couple of sets per week and i don't go all the way down barely half way and sometimes less and a lot less weight than i use to lift b4 plus some ibuprofen the day i exercise them, and i always have to lay off from time to time , but i'm getting better with this low volume training but lost mass and defenition. my side delts and traps r fine if i do them in isolation but rarely doing that, my training now is kind like HIT only basic compounds once a week each for 2 to 4 sets max(squats , deads , flat bench , military press and barbell row)

when i go incline or overhead press it's better and less pain the worst pain is when i flat bench and flyes , adduction is the worst thing ever for me can't handle a weight far from my body and with barbell i do a narrow grip and lately i'm using the machine press most of the time instead of free weights and it also hurts when i do front delts raises.
 
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so only 333mgs per week max huh? how do you figure?? whatever happened to the 2mg per lb of body weight measurement? I've run deca up to 500mg per week and NO sides whatsoever. There's also aids patients who run it year round. so where did you come up with all this again???
 
I need to clarify my post a bit and will this weekend

there will be a "what to stack deca" with part and clearer guide lines of doses for hrt vs full cycle
 
I need to clarify my post a bit and will this weekend

there will be a "what to stack deca" with part and clearer guide lines of doses for hrt vs full cycle

keep it coming bro , specially the hrt part , can we run it all year long let's say for 25 or 50 mg per week , cuz it will be better for me financial wise and for maintaining all year.

thx for everything :heart:
 
cabergoline (dostinex has a long list of possible side effetcs, some can get away with taking it, some like me get some sides.

personally i have had numbness and tingling in my hands and feet, developed carpel tunnel in my right wrist and permanently lost some feeling in part of the right hand from nerve damage from the carpel tunnel. i the part of my hand on the top around where my thumb joins to the hand only has about 80-85% sensitivity now.

that was running it at 0.5mg E3D

running it at half that dose (0.25 md E3D) i can almost get away with but it gives me an annoying rash on my hands that looks like dermatitis.

as soon as i have the money i am going to switch to pramipexole and see how i do on that because the caber isnt agreeing with me at all

damn bro, sorry to hear about all that. the only thing it did to me was harden my pe pe. But seriously I've heard carpel tunnel syndrome more times in the last couple weeks than I have in my whole life. I just looked for side effects of caber but can't find anyone complaining of carpal tunnel... Are you taking hgh? b/c I'm sure you are aware that it can cause temporary carpal tunnel as well.. I have heard Letro is a very effective alternative to caber if you are having sides. Hopefully using low dose deca, the way Omega describes, will alleviate the need for caber or anything else used directly for deca dik.
 
no i dont use HGH or anything else that could have caused the carpel tunnel at all, it was dostinex without a doubt.

on the list of side effects of dostinex "numbness/tingling" of hands and feet is listed

when i went to my doc about the issue he told me that cabaser is known to be able to cause carpel tunnel in some unlucky people.

letro isnt really gonna help if your taking deca or tren and your prolactin is sky high, it will stop gyno yes.... but i need to keep things working smoothly downstairs or my girlfriend will tell me to stop cycling lol. shes cool with it as long as its not messing up our relationship or sex life.

im taking tren now so need to keep the prolactin in check

There are a lot of people that would disagree strongly with this statement. BTW, I'm not sure where the stigma of deca causing high prolactin, or high progesterone came from but I got my bloods results in a very expensive blood test after my deca cycle and it actually showed my Prog and my Prolactin at the very bottom of the range yet my sex drive was slammed. People talk about deca doing this around here and repeating it like fuggin parrots but I have NEVER seen blood work to prove it.

I can't remember how many times I asked people why my sex drive was so repressed and EVERY time it's the same answer. "oh, your prolactin is high", "oh your progesterone is high b/c of the deca". Not true, I got the bloods to prove it bish. Now what? :heart:
 
Great post Ozzie. :)

True true true..

Let me take a moment here and go one further on the ED/Ejaculation thing. :heart:

Prolactin and Dopamine are hormones that are at ends for sexual behavior..
high Dopamine levels will encourage feeling of sexual desire and allow for erections and sexual activity..

Once a creature reaches orgasm Prolactin is released.. This is to believes to cause the sense of well being "good job" feeling/response as well as the sexual refractory period. The higher the prolactin... the better you feel after sex.

I have often considered L-DOPA instead of prescription Dopamine agonists..

L-DOPA is the precursor to Dopamine.. it can cross the blood-brain barrier, as injectable Dopamine could not.
 
not sticky worthy yet
I have to edit some language/statements and add some more

but thanks!

Ozzie thanks for the info:)
 
fyi I got bashed at another board for using Tea time lol
and some other state ment that hard core juicers did not understand

thank goodness their Admin saw its value at least on some degree and protected it
 
Hello omega :)
How dare they!
Hope is everything going over here :)
What kind of tea do you prefer to drink?
 
Omega what do you feel about a gram of test and half a gram of Deca run for 12 weeks follwed by hrt? I mean, since i'm already on hrt, how does this look for my next blast? My last blast was a gram of TE ew for 12 weeks. Obviously the actual Test i was getting in was close to 700 mgs ew odd lol.
 
Omega what do you feel about a gram of test and half a gram of Deca run for 12 weeks follwed by hrt? I mean, since i'm already on hrt, how does this look for my next blast? My last blast was a gram of TE ew for 12 weeks. Obviously the actual Test i was getting in was close to 700 mgs ew odd lol.

since u r on hrt stop ur cycle on week 6 or 7 max cruise for 3-4 weeks and then blast again with the same dose , ur receptors r going to be saturated between week 5 - 7 , if u run it straight for 12 weeks with that same dose ur gonna waste half of ur cycle plus more sides.
 
now that ive dropped the deca i can REALLY appreciate what it was doing for my joints......

feel dry and stiff, shoulders are a bit sore on heavy movements......

time to lower the letro dose i think.

deca rly is an amazing compound

yeah i wish we can run it all year long even if at a very low dose like 25-50mg/week , do u think it'll work like that without any long term sides???
 
now that ive dropped the deca i can REALLY appreciate what it was doing for my joints......

feel dry and stiff, shoulders are a bit sore on heavy movements......

time to lower the letro dose i think.

deca rly is an amazing compound

drop the Letro to almost nothing for a week, then use only tiny amounts till you find what u need
 
There are a lot of people that would disagree strongly with this statement. BTW, I'm not sure where the stigma of deca causing high prolactin, or high progesterone came from but I got my bloods results in a very expensive blood test after my deca cycle and it actually showed my Prog and my Prolactin at the very bottom of the range yet my sex drive was slammed. People talk about deca doing this around here and repeating it like fuggin parrots but I have NEVER seen blood work to prove it.

I can't remember how many times I asked people why my sex drive was so repressed and EVERY time it's the same answer. "oh, your prolactin is high", "oh your progesterone is high b/c of the deca". Not true, I got the bloods to prove it bish. Now what? :heart:

I would really like to see a response to this if anybody has the knowledge. cgar is speaking about his own experinece here and he also states that he has yet to see any actual blood test to back up the statements that deca causes high proloacin or progesterone. The guy is just asking for the basis of why everybody says this. I dont see where he is saying that it is not true but that he would like proof of it.
I for one would like to know/see the same for my own education in and much thanks for all of this good info.:D
Also for guys not on TRT/HRT what if after a recignized good PCT protocall you cant get back to normal after using deca? I have seen this scenario a couple of times on here. But it is like at that point these guys are kinda left out there hangning.
Omega? Armani? Ozzie? Radar? Needto? anybody? somebody? thoughts guyz?? and again much thanks!!:heart:
 
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The posts dont exist any more but Huckfinnalpex and 2thick and others back in the day showed tests to prove it.
thats why cabergoline got all popular when it came out.

everyone is different of course, but am sharing generally true for most peoples cases precautions that ought to be considered.
 
thanks man im on it :)

deca masked the dry joints completely, incredible.

i first noticed the dry joints the other day doing heavy seated rows

i was taking .5mg letro (1/5th tab) ED, i should have realized my E was too low, my sex drive has gone to crap the last couple of weeks :evil:

in the mean time ease back on intensity

was lifting heavy building supplies the other day and strained a joint do to accidental over AI use.
 
I don't have much posts here, but was skimming and read this thread. It's a good read, but I noticed it said "boosts the immune system"

It actually lowers interferon gamma levels (essential in our first line of defense for our immunities), and can actually mask Tuberculosis during testing. A man almost died from TB because the doctor's couldn't figure out what was wrong due to the Deca.

(I don't have enough posts to post the link)

In case readers don't know what interferon is, here is a definition from wiki:

"Interferons (IFNs) are proteins made and released by lymphocytes in response to the presence of pathogens—such as viruses, bacteria, or parasites—or tumor cells. They allow communication between cells to trigger the protective defenses of the immune system that eradicate pathogens or tumors."

also Deca has another scary side effect...

Nandrolone kills the blood vessel lining at a concentration eleven times lower than that at which testosterone kills them. Researchers from the University of L’Aquila in Italy discovered this in laboratory tests on human cells.

Really increases the chance of a heart attack over time
(I don't have enough posts to post a link)


Also it stays in the system so much longer than other steroids and causes more suppression because of this.

I personally would not use deca again
 
I would really like to see a response to this if anybody has the knowledge. cgar is speaking about his own experinece here and he also states that he has yet to see any actual blood test to back up the statements that deca causes high proloacin or progesterone. The guy is just asking for the basis of why everybody says this. I dont see where he is saying that it is not true but that he would like proof of it.
I for one would like to know/see the same for my own education in and much thanks for all of this good info.:D
Also for guys not on TRT/HRT what if after a recignized good PCT protocall you cant get back to normal after using deca? I have seen this scenario a couple of times on here. But it is like at that point these guys are kinda left out there hangning.
Omega? Armani? Ozzie? Radar? Needto? anybody? somebody? thoughts guyz?? and again much thanks!!:heart:

I do not have the time tonight, but assure you I will return in the next few days with a full write up on these issues as well as immunity/cardiovascular issues that have been raised.

-ArmaniAK47
 
Trenbolone has been shown to NOT raise progesterone when tested specifically for this in livestock.

Binding to the receptor and activating it is NOT THE SAME! This by the way is why SERMs work: Serms bind to the estrogen-receptor strongly. In some parts it ACTS as an estrogen, in other parts it simply binds to the receptor, blocking estrogen and preventing estrogenic action, effectively deactivating it.

Trenbolone has been showed to have a relatively strong binding affinity to the progesterone receptor, but NO progestagenic action was noted in livestock! Well, actually a recent study showed trenbolone to have about 1/100th the potency of actual progesterone, so there is SOME action, but clearly insignificant.

Tren is widely used to make cattle grow into lean beef. Estrogen promotes fat gain. So does progesterone. Tren does not.

So, come up with one piece of evidence please, with actual trenbolone, not bullshit ug-tren which is often cut with deca or whatever else is cheaper at the moment, where tren promotes raised progesterone.

Testosterone has been shown to raise progesterone MORE than tren. Yes, really. Anyone using cabergoline to combat the prog-gyno from test? No?

The fact that dostinex or pramipexole helps with libido... that does not prove that progesterone or even prolactin is high in and of itself, dostinex skyrockets libido regardless in most people! Pramipexole comes with a warning that it can lead to hypersexuality.

As a test: Run a pure tren-only cycle.
Preferably made by finaplix-H so you know it's real, pure tren. Tren only, no testo, no other compounds.
Now try to get "prog-gyno".
Your libido will surely die, because you will produce NO test and will have no aromatization to estrogen after awhile.
Run a blood test.
Your estrogen will be very low.
Your progesterone will be low.

Tren is not a progestin.
 
:DThanks for the replies guyz, much appreciation!:D
 
interesting however arent these cells repairable once discontinueing deca, meaning it only increases chances while on deca?

ur info on decas effects on the immune system are interesting

Yes of course cells regenerate etc. However it's still valid information, since Deca does tend to stay in the system a while, and for people who do long cycles or permanent blast and cruise, the information could be much more worthwhile.

And I know quite a few people who are on long long cycles. It takes its toll over time, and I would want people to have as much info as possible to make their educated choices.

I would post some links, but if you checked out Ergo-log and searched the term Deca, you would find some interesting findings on it.

Take care
 
I would really like to see a response to this if anybody has the knowledge. cgar is speaking about his own experinece here and he also states that he has yet to see any actual blood test to back up the statements that deca causes high proloacin or progesterone. The guy is just asking for the basis of why everybody says this. I dont see where he is saying that it is not true but that he would like proof of it.
I for one would like to know/see the same for my own education in and much thanks for all of this good info.:D
Also for guys not on TRT/HRT what if after a recignized good PCT protocall you cant get back to normal after using deca? I have seen this scenario a couple of times on here. But it is like at that point these guys are kinda left out there hangning.
Omega? Armani? Ozzie? Radar? Needto? anybody? somebody? thoughts guyz?? and again much thanks!!:heart:

Exactly!! I never said that it will not raise prog or prolactin levels I simply said that I haven't seen any information or blood tests to prove it.

I say that I got my bloods checked with no sign of high prol/prog and you got guys here calling that BRO-OLOGY!?!? Everyone on here says go get your bloods, go get your bloods and then when you show them results countering what they are trying to prove they call it "bro-ology"....
 
i never said anything about what you said being bro-ology if you read my post

the way you worded your original post made it sound like you were challenging whether 19-nor testosterone compounds raised prolactin at all

it happens to some, for others it doesnt.

i would love to see bloodwork too btw so hopefully we will be lucky enough to at some point

ps what was your cycle, how much deca did you run etc etc

To an extent I was challenging it but in a way that would encourage someone to post up a blood test or study that shows this to be true. There are thousands of people on this site and not a single one can or has posted up their blood work after their cycle like I did? I guess I got a little feed up with telling people that my prolactin/progesterone was NOT high after asking people what's wrong with my libido and them telling me that this was the case. It's like the go-to answer around here and all I'm asking for is a little proof.

To answer your question Ozzie my cycle was as follows:
400 mg/wk Deca for 10wks
500 mg/wk Test Enth for 12 wks


I actually read a study yesterday about how deca and tren do not increase prolactin at all but actually reduce it. Here is the pertinent part of the study:

Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.

Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.

There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion


And in male sheep, tren has no effect on prolactin levels:

Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.

Donaldson IA, Hart IC, Heitzman RJ.

The mode of action of the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate (19-norandrost-4,9,11-trien-3-one-17-acetate) was studied through the endogenous hormonal response of castrated male sheep to subcutaneous implantation of 140 mg of trenbolone acetate and 20 mg of oestradiol both separately and in combination. Radioimmunoassay of delta-4,9,11-trienic steroids and oestradiol-17 beta in plasma confirmed that simultaneous administration of trenbolone acetate with oestradiol led to a significantly greater persistence of oestradiol-17 beta residues in plasma (P less than 0.05) than with implantation of oestradiol alone. Oestradiol treatment increased concentrations of growth hormone and insulin (P less than 0.05; P less than 0.001 respectively) in plasma samples collected weekly. Trenbolone acetate by itself had no significant effect and the oestrogenic response was blocked on the simultaneous implantation of trenbolone acetate and oestradiol (despite higher plasma levels of oestradiol-17 beta with this treatment). Plasma total thyroxine was markedly depressed to 45 per cent of its basal level by trenbolone acetate, alone or with oestradiol (P less than 0.001) and depressed to 80 per cent of basal by oestradiol treatment alone (P less than 0.001). Plasma prolactin was unaltered by the above treatments.



This study holds true to my blood tests and concludes that deca/tren DO NOT raise prolactin levels. Does anyone have information to show otherwise?
 
Cgar :)
no bro those studies are misleading not even applicable for US on cycles

second study is in sheep bro wtf

First one is with Test levels at a static level(eugonadal)
Second is in sheep lol ( not humans)

The fact is this when your on cycle with Test ( where Test levels are not static) and then you add Deca in, you get the conversion.
Now yes using Ai and Cabergoline could control this but its $$$, so I gave the option of using safe guidelines to avoid sides with spending $$$
 
Ozzie/Omega the study I found on male sheep is the ONLY relevant study I have read on this subject. Are you saying that ALL studies that have been done on rats and not humans should be thrown out the window? Why do you think this group of scientists decided to do this particular study on sheep? It's definitely not because they care how sheep react to androgens LOL. It's because this group of scientists, whom I am sure have close correlation on the way the pituitary gland in humans and sheep react with androgens and a more in depth knowledge about this subject than any of us, decided that this would give us a good indication of how WE react to androgens as well. For anyone to throw out this study because it was done on sheep is undermining the knowledge of the scientific community and it's research. So good sir, I believe you have your debate cut out for you. :D

Again, if this study is not conclusive enough for you along with my blood test then please post a relevant study. Because so far all I've heard arguments with no proof. I am a sponge that is not saturated and not incapable of absorbing new information.
 
No Animals only provide a cursory reference point for how things work or "may" work in humans, it is ONLY when the studies are done in humans that you may make a factual beyond a doubt statement (peferably males since females respond different)

case in point; Clen is anticatabolic in rats. So we all assumed years ago it would be in humans. Its NOT for we dont have any of those receptors to respond as rats did.

Let me make another leap.... if xy and Z worked on a cat, am i too assume it would work on a Llamma?
When you make a leap from sex to sex there is a disconnect in results let alone a species jump if you looking for empirical facts on how it will effect us.
 
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as for as Tests or results.....bro just look at the complaints and sides once you introduce more deca then is needed on a Test Base.

Its not Estro that the culprit , Estro is simply the partner in crime
 
I don't have much posts here, but was skimming and read this thread. It's a good read, but I noticed it said "boosts the immune system"

It actually lowers interferon gamma levels (essential in our first line of defense for our immunities), and can actually mask Tuberculosis during testing. A man almost died from TB because the doctor's couldn't figure out what was wrong due to the Deca.

(I don't have enough posts to post the link)

In case readers don't know what interferon is, here is a definition from wiki:

"Interferons (IFNs) are proteins made and released by lymphocytes in response to the presence of pathogens—such as viruses, bacteria, or parasites—or tumor cells. They allow communication between cells to trigger the protective defenses of the immune system that eradicate pathogens or tumors."

also Deca has another scary side effect...

Nandrolone kills the blood vessel lining at a concentration eleven times lower than that at which testosterone kills them. Researchers from the University of L’Aquila in Italy discovered this in laboratory tests on human cells.

Really increases the chance of a heart attack over time
(I don't have enough posts to post a link)


Also it stays in the system so much longer than other steroids and causes more suppression because of this.

I personally would not use deca again

interesting post, does anyone have a clue on this, could it be true? maybe it is dose and length dependent , how it is used for years for hiv patient , muscle wasting disease or any auto-immune disease ?
i wanna know more about these interferons and blood vessels lining , so if u plz can post a real study with references.
 
Well... animal studies showed no progestagenic activity. And animal studies is all we have on certain steroids.
His bloodwork showed no raised progesterone.

Together it sure beats steroid "profiles" and bro-logic. Most people run many different compounds from various UG-labs and have very little control on what sides are the direct result of which steroids, what is the result of the combinations of steroids or the combination of their various metabolites.

There are too many gurus whose post-counts are seen as an acceptable substitute for real credentials.

Their "wisdom" is parroted across the different boards and before you know it anadrol will make your liver explode (nevermind the 10-year olds who's prescribed anadrol for wasting diseases at high bodybuilding dosages for six months with NO ill effects seen on their livers), tren is a progestin beacuse it BINDS to the progesterone-receptors (nevermind it barely ACTIVATES them), and all 19-nors are alike. Well, they're not, just beacuse part of their chemical structure is the same, they're as different as dianabol and equipose. Which is the same steroid. Except it isn't, regardless of structure.

Use pure compounds.
PURE.
In isolation.
Get bloodwork.
Then combine two.
Get bloodwork again.

Now one can begin to form an opinion based on what MAY be fact.

Or be a parrot. Nevermind pubmed, animal studies or facts.
 
No Animals only provide a cursory reference point for how things work or "may" work in humans, it is ONLY when the studies are done in humans that you may make a factual beyond a doubt statement (peferably males since females respond different)

case in point; Clen is anticatabolic in rats. So we all assumed years ago it would be in humans. Its NOT for we dont have any of those receptors to respond as rats did.

Let me make an even larger leap.... if xy and Z worked on a cat, am i too assume it would work on a Llamma?
When you make a leap from sex to sex there is a disconnect in results let alone a species jump if you looking for empirical facts on how it will effect us.

A sheep's pituitary gland more closely represents the size and function of the human pituitary than any other animal, even in relation to the female pituitary. I think it's safe to say that me using this study to represent my theory is a whole lot better than you trying to argue your point with NO study to back your claims.

We react the same way as animals with a pituitary to injecting gonadotropic hormones which makes the pituitary produce LH and send it to the leydig cells. It doesn't sound like the SCIENTIST that decided to use MALE sheep to simulate what would happen in humans were off base at all. All I'm saying is, if you want to make a point then use research to back yourself. :)
 
oh my gosh cgar lol Im sorry but you cant compare them. believe if you want or not.

none the less thanks for sharing
 
again WE ARE NOT SHEEP!!!!

how can you say just because it doesnt have that effect on sheep, that it wont have an effect on us?

yes it might be the most similar to a human for the test, but at the end of the day its a sheep! if i started eating grass all day would i grow a nice wooley coat?? i doubt it (although that would be funny!)

and also how can you explain the fact that so many steroid users have HAD to use drugs to lower prolactin in order to fix deca/tren side effects?

if these side effects did not exist then the treatment would be useless and have zero effect.

the fact that the use of cabergoline, whos medical purpose is to lower prolactin, solves the problems commonly caused by progestenic steroid use in humans , is far more conclusive than a study done on sheep IMO

So youre saying were NOT sheep.... interesting. :faint:

You would look stellar with a wooley coat. I wouldn't necessarily say that you would grow one if you at grass all day, but you 'might' get some action if you slipped a roofie in it's water bowl and brought a pair of velcro gloves. LOLOLOL

On the argument of sheep's pituitary vs humans, would it be fair to say that since not ALL humans are subject to prolactin issues while taking deca/tren, do you think it's possible that the sample 'lab sheep' tested didn't accurately represent the sheep population and there are still sheep out there vulnerable to the dreaded 'Deca Dick'? :worried:
 
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Ok Guys lets pause for now:)

Each side has represented their points of view, then rebutted etc.

Lets leave it at that please...
 
how about you show me evidence that what i said is incorrect?

i dare you :)


if you dont like this forum dont visit it. simple as

dont come on here with a bad attitude and insult us just because we dont agree with your crazy, super high dose oral only cycles and our educated, logical thinking regarding progestins.

Hah! Burden of proof lies on the one claiming his opinion "is based on fact!"

What fact??

Where did you hear this "fact"?
Your the one who repeatedly disputes the relevance of animal studies, even though virtually ALL steroid profiles are based on ONE very old and questionable study done on rats with regards to the different steroids anabolic and androgenic ratings.

Where does your 60% figure come from?

I never said I didn't like the forum, only that there's just as much unfounded bro-knowledge being presented as facts here as on most other steroid-boards.

My crazy high dose oral only cycles?

My crazy cycle at the moment consists of test E and tren E. But read up on oxymetholone at pub med if you want evidence that anadrol will not kill a healthy liver in six weeks.

My bad attitude is the same as not being a good "bro", right? Shame on me for questioning the "facts", asking for evidence and being insulting by not nodding my head in agreement of the good bros!

If you DO have any sort of evidence regarding tren actually being a progestin, I am prepared to change my belief.

But you don't have it do you?

Sorry for being so "difficult", I will go back to lurking and refrain from pointing out the emperors new clothes. :)

And let's disregard bloodwork when it doesn't back up what we already "know"!

Maybe you should ask RADAR why he hasn't dropped dead from liver failure after his 4 month dbol run? orals for more than six weeks? Instant death!

(ok, a bit cranky, I'm on a diet, hehe!)
 
TinyTim your talking to some of the most open minded people around so pretty please no need to get negative in the way you were ( not your last posts but the ones before.

with this particular subject there is a stale mate and should be left at that.

one side says- ok here are these 2 studies

the other side says - those studies are not applicable to humans on cycle either because we dont have utters, or because we are not euogonadal ( static T levels)

its really not going to change.

What me as Ozzie are saying is that that when your ON Test whether on Cycle or HRT, you will already have high E levels and when you introduce things like Tren, or Deca and like compounds you can bet your ass there will be an issue based on the practical reality we have presented.
Why do you think Cabergoline became popular overnight? Or Dostinex? hmm?


anyway if you disagree with me fine, I disagree with you and I will leave it at that.

PS Welcome to elite :) dont let out butting of penises scare you away
no ones asking you to censor yourself...... its just the nature of this particular convo that I said what i said
 
A sheep's pituitary gland more closely represents the size and function of the human pituitary than any other animal, even in relation to the female pituitary. I think it's safe to say that me using this study to represent my theory is a whole lot better than you trying to argue your point with NO study to back your claims.

We react the same way as animals with a pituitary to injecting gonadotropic hormones which makes the pituitary produce LH and send it to the leydig cells. It doesn't sound like the SCIENTIST that decided to use MALE sheep to simulate what would happen in humans were off base at all. All I'm saying is, if you want to make a point then use research to back yourself. :)

If thy had wanted a more accurate test subject then Why not do tests on our closest cousin?.......... Apes.
 
This study looked at ER and PgR expression in normal breast tissue (i.e. not cancer tissue) in tamoxifen treated women. They found that tamoxifen "shows no stimulatory activity on either PgR levels, a well known oestrogen regulated protein... or the important parameter of cell proliferation (Figure 2)." "In conclusion, the data presented do not show any adverse effects of tamoxifen on normal breast tissue."

This finding was confirmed in the most extensive study that I've seen looking at the effects of tamoxifen in normal breast tissue, which was published in 2003. This quote couldn't be any more relevant or explicit. Read it and reread it:
Quote:
The observation that PR status is different in response to tamoxifen depending on the normal and tumour breast tissue is highly important. In normal epithelial breast tissue, tamoxifen downregulates PR, while in breast cancer tissue it upregulates the receptor, which indicates that tamoxifen plays a greater agonistic effect in tumour tissue than in normal tissue.

In the present study, ERa and PR expressions decreased significantly on the normal breast tissue (epithelium) of patients receiving 5, 10 or 20 mg/day of tamoxifen for 50 days compared with the placebo group. The important finding was that low doses of tamoxifen decreased ERa and PR expression to levels observed with the standard dose of tamoxifen.

Here are images showing the effect of different doses of tamoxifen on the level of estrogen receptors (ER, on the left) and progesterone receptors (PR, on the right) in normal breast tissue:
64095293.gif
63407219.gif


These results in normal breast tissue are in perfect accordance with my statement that "There is no evidence showing that tamoxifen upregulates the progesterone receptor in the breast (which is what the worry is all about). It shows it does the opposite."
 
Female Breast tissue
the male body is different has Test as it main hormone which Aromatizes this hormonal back drop effects the way things operate endocrinology in regard to P's expression.

I am siting here grinning because its so easy to ignore advice handed to you on a silver platter to help you.

We are males on cycle! the hormonal back drop is what creates the vulnerability/sides. Yes there are blood tests as I remember from HucckleBerry Finnaplex and 2Thick, but that was years ago.

Not to mention the body of threads talking about how Deca has a horrible relationship with Nolva and Tren.
 
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Cgar Im sorry it was directed to you, not mocking you

I was back lashing at the Nolva Study

Ill edit my last post for you:)
 
  • The two studies I posted are the ONLY two studies in relevant, healthy breast tissue (at least that we're aware of)
  • The 2003 study did in fact look at 20mg/day, the most common dose taken by bodybuilders
  • There are NOT "dozens" of papers showing risk; at most, there are a handful of papers showing up-regulation in cancerous tissue, often with inconsistent results, including some showing down-regulation/no effect even in cancerous tissue
  • There is NOT consensus that nolva exacerbates problems, with many people reporting that nolva had beneficial effects on gyno in a cycle that included a progestin (including a guy at the start of this thread)
Most of the incorrect info about not using nolva with 19-nors is simply a symptom of internet parroting, not from actual experience.
 
Good post Omega.

I was always reluctant to use deca due to deca dick. I am on 200mg and it has done wonders for my joints and lower back. NO PAIN! And 200mg is a very reasonable dose.

I see guy using 600mg on a deca only cycle and I want to slap them.

I am using dostinex too. .5mg a week and I have no deca dick. I didn't have deca dick for the first three weeks but why not keep it in check.

Deca can be scary if used improperly but your post is clear, concise, and shows the real way to use it! Props Omega. Good bro material.
 
The beginning of week 5 it really hit me. I was literally 10 lbs heavier and a freak in the gym. My bench went up to a one rep max of 205lbs to repetitions of 6-8 of 255lbs. I could curl 60lbs for 8-10.
 
I pasted this into word so I'll never lose it. I've gained 25 lbs in 4 weeks with a deca/test cycle based strictly on this post. The one thing you didn't mention was the increase and appetite and carb craving.
 
I'm a bit upset. A few weeks ago I convinced my doc to prescribe deca for ongoing facet joint pain in my back. He sent me for labs. When I returned with the results he said that he was afraid to prescribe deca as he knows too little about it, and wouldn't want to test it out on me.

Any suggestions on what type of doctor to visit for deca? Is it reasonable for me to believe I can get deca prescribed for joint pain?
 
I pasted this into word so I'll never lose it. I've gained 25 lbs in 4 weeks with a deca/test cycle based strictly on this post. The one thing you didn't mention was the increase and appetite and carb craving.



so in other words the guide lines I gave were correct? for you?

Increase appetite is do to new tissue synthesis :artist:
 
peptides peptides peptides .................... :)
merry christmas and a happy new year to u omega and to all the good bro's here on EF.
 
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