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How Strength is relative to how you train

coolcolj

coolcolj

New member
Interesting post by Glenn Pendlay -

training is specific. for example, on some exercises, with a weight of 80% of my max, i can only do 2 reps! for example, i can snatch around 385-390lbs... but 310lbs for a set of 2 is real hard. back when i used to squat heavier than i do now, i could do a single for a bit over 800lbs... but doubles with 700 or so were very hard.

on the other hand, i used to train with a guy who was not a competitive bodybuilder, but he trained mostly for size and general fitness. he used to do sets of 20 on the squat all the time, but never really went heavy. at a bodyweight of 160, he could do 300lbs on the full squat for 20 reps, but i doubt he could have squatted more than 340 or so for a 1 rep max.

i once got beat in a bet with a guy who squatted about 200lbs less than me for a single... we bet a couple of pints of guinness on who could do more reps on the squat with 400lbs. he did 20 and i only managed 15. this pissed me off so i did some high rep squats for a while, and several months later bet him again, and he again did 400 for 20, i then did 500lbs for 20. but i had to train specifically for it to do it... just being able to squat a big 1 rep max didnt automatically enable me to do a big set of 20.

i remember at a national powerlifting meet about 10 years ago, i was in the warmup room and saw one of my competitors warming up with about 400lbs. his legs were HUGE, and he was handling the warmup weight like there was nothing on the bar. it was a meet i had won the year before, and i had been pretty sure of winning again, but upon seeing this guy i was more than a little worried. turned out he only squatted 585, which was a couple of hundred pounds beneath what i was able to do. yet he handled 400lbs seemingly easier than i did, and his legs were bigger than mine for sure. after the meet i learned that he was a college football player whose coach really believed in 20 rep squats. his teammates said he could handle OVER 500 POUNDS for a set of 20!!! unfortunately, he had never really trained for limit strength. i still remember him trying a bit over 600lbs for his third attempt, and the weight just crushed him, as he started to go down on the decent, his back just collapsed. even though he could do 500 for 20, hed simply never had 600lbs on his back and couldnt hold it!

having trained with a number of strong people, and yes a few good bodybuilders including one now generally recognized as the best and one of the strongest ever i can easily see the difference between "bodybuilder" strength and the strength o competitive lifters and track and field athletes.

personally, i doubt there are many (maybe not any) bodybuilders around who can beat me on a push press, a powerclean, or even a full squat. but on DB bench presses for 10 reps... sure. on 20 rep squats? sure.

athletes who use weights to train for a specific event are usually pretty specialized. they specialize in the exercise which gives them the most performnce increase. no bodybuilder will match jud logans powerclean, or oldfields back squat. but if you put these two throwers up against say, ronnie coleman in a contest of 15 different lifts, all done for 10 reps, all with dumbells or machines... well then i would bet that even though these guys are two of the most powerfull, explosive, and just plain STRONG guys around, ronnie would probably win in almost all the events.
 
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very true and a great post......this is why analyzing your sport and finding the most efficient training methods to target SPECIFIC attributes is so important
 
Good post. I didn't see the line about Glenn Pendlay posting it at first and I thought "Holy crap! CCj used to squat over 800 pounds?!?" :)
 
Thats why im not a fan of following only one type of training. I hear the DC followers go on about how thats all you ever need, but IMO, one set to failure forever is not very rounded.

Hey, I like DC training, but it does nothing for endurance...
 
Backlash said:
Good post. I didn't see the line about Glenn Pendlay posting it at first and I thought "Holy crap! CCj used to squat over 800 pounds?!?" :)
Click to expand...

err maybe one day, err maybe not :D

Yeah Glenn is big boy, 6'1" 300-370lbs and he's been training a long time and has done pretty much eveyrthing - powerlifting, highland games, strongman, now olylifting and oly/strength coach at MSU. He sure knows a lot
 
This is very informative, and answers a lot of questions. However notice how it only took him a very short amount of time to do the 500 x 20. Maybe if you already have the foundation of strength, for example a big 1 rep max, then it does not take long to convert this kind of max into reps.. as opposed to a novice.
 
revexrevex said:
This is very informative, and answers a lot of questions. However notice how it only took him a very short amount of time to do the 500 x 20. Maybe if you already have the foundation of strength, for example a big 1 rep max, then it does not take long to convert this kind of max into reps.. as opposed to a novice.
Click to expand...
very much so
 
bits and pieces from Glenn that I have filed away in a folder from a while back - Like I said the man knows a lot of stuff :)

-------------------------------------

hooked... it sounds like you have some educational background and some athletic experience.... and i dont mean to be disparaging with this comment at all, youve obviously got a lot going for you in the knowledge arena.

however its dangerous to assume things about others knowledge and experience. for instance, you have a 4 year degree in ex phys... on the other hand i TEACH undergraduate and graduate exercise physiology at a university. and there is at least one person on this board who knows where i teach and can verify this becasue we have talked about him coming here to get his masters.

you also say you are certified, well i teach certification classes for the USOC and USAW to certify people as olympic weightlifting coaches and the new USOC sports training coarse, which is roughly equivelent to a CSCS but i think better... i also lecture at international symposiums to coaches in many countries about programming of training and my research about topics in exercise programming is published in peer reviewed journals such as the european journal of applied physiology and several textbooks. i have also reviewed and helped write textbook chaptors, who knows, maybe one of the ones you used in your undergrad ex phys class!

you also talked about your athletic accomplishments. well, i have been a top national and international competitior in more than one sport, ive trained at the olympic training centers both here and in the soviet union under many of the best coaches adn some of the most respected people in the business. in at least one of your undergraduate classes you probably talked about the soviet coach medvedev whos ideas on periodization shaped american traning methodologies for decades. well, if i wanted to i could show you pics i have of me and him getting drunk together in a moscow nightclub. you talked about your weights you use, and i could tell you about a couple of junior world record that i used to hold, or the several national records i have set or the world championship ive won and the several national championships. and as ive said before, there are a couple of people here who know me and can vouch for everything ive said.

now, all this may sound like im tryint to run you down or prove im better than you. but thats not my aim. what im trying to do is to tell you that while im sure your a smart guy and youve got a lot too offer, there are a lot of smart people here, there are several with PhD's in exercise and related fields, there are some damn good athletes, and some BBers whos great physiques attest to their knowledge. and there are some guys whos knowledge of drugs and chemistry is truly astounding.
 
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More from Glenn Pendlay - he always posts enlightening stuff.


greyowl, we usually agree on most things but im gonna have to disagree with you on this one. ive competed in highland games, Ol, PL, and even a bit of strongman for fun... and i know and have trained with more than a few of the top guys in each sport. and ill say without a doubt that there isnt a highland games athlete alive that is as strong as any one of the top 5 superheavy olympic lifters.

let me give you a couple of examples for comparison, exercises that all of the above sports do for training.

military press... there are some strongman competitors who do in the low 400's, as well as some highland games guys and some bodybuilders even. but when the press was an event in OL, the top guys were doing over 500lbs. you mighyt say that the "lay-back" olympic style of pressing has something to do with this, but most other athletes get some knee kick to get the weight started, and some of the OLers such as redding and patera did VERY strict presses with in excess of 500lbs. this is just plain stronger than other strength athletes.

power cleans... you might say that the squat clean and snatch are specialized, and OLers ahve an advantage. well, most strongmen, highland games guys, shot putters, etc, all do powercleans. jud logan was famous in the track and field world for a 440lb powerclean. from my experience, most highland games guys do less than 400lbs, but i do know a couple who have done 400lbs. i dont know any strongman competitors who have done 400, but i suspect some have. i know a couple of powerlifters who have done 400lbs, one is chuck V., and i know gary frank, who is regarded as the best and strongest powerlifter ever at superheavy has done 440lbs. ed coan reports having done 425. these guys are the best of the best in their respective sports. but the best olympic lifters powerclean above 500lbs. krastev did 529. friends tell me kurlovick did 529 also. jaber reportedly did 550 while training in bulgaria, weighing less than 300lbs. again, the OLers arent in a whole other class, but they are a bit stronger in a common exercise.

squats. lets talk squats without powerlifting equipment. i know coan has done 825. i know several strongmen who report lifts between 750 and 800 for full squats. there are numerous shot putters and disc throwers who are in the 700-800 range. ive never personally known or seen a highland games guy with that huge of a squat, i do know one in particular who has done 700lbs, hes regareded in highland games circles as a monster with bad technique but strength to spare. but in OL, the record for the old dynamo club in the soviet union is 1014. tarenenko did 837lbs for a triple with a 2 second pause at the bottem of each rep. kurlovich is reported to have done reps with 880 very easily. ive seen shane do 804 with such ease that it looked like a warmup, and hes not even in the top 10 in the world. he definately got a 900lb olympic squat to go along with his official 1008 powerlifting squat. so again, the top OLers are a bit stronger.

now, im not trying to just be pro OL here, so i want to tell you WHY, in my opinion, the top OLers are a bit stronger than the top guys in other sports...

let me give you an example, jaber of bulgaria. he is totally state supported, he has no job. he trains 6-8 hours a day, that is his job. that is his only life. no worries about bills, food, drugs. everything is provided, he just has to train. compare to a highland ccompetitor. most likely, he has a job, and trains as a hobby. he travels every weekend throughout the season to compete, which he must do if he wants to make any money at all. same for strongman, although they dont compete as often. double that for powerlifters, they cant make a living at the sport. its a hobby.

IF the current crop of strongmen, highland games athletes, powerlifters, were state supported, and trained under the same conditions at the top OLers, would they reach the same levels of strength? probably. but until that happens, they probably wont
 
question for coolcolj...

or anybody else with ol knowledge. when he is referring to the power clean, how does that differ from the 'clean' portion in a clean and jerk? i have seen olympic lifting on tv, never in person and the athletes squat under the bar as they raise it to their shoulders. is this required under the rules or is this just for efficacy? just trying to get some clarification? i apologize in advance if this question sounds silly.
 
Re: question for coolcolj...

sinjinsmythe33 said:
or anybody else with ol knowledge. when he is referring to the power clean, how does that differ from the 'clean' portion in a clean and jerk? i have seen olympic lifting on tv, never in person and the athletes squat under the bar as they raise it to their shoulders. is this required under the rules or is this just for efficacy? just trying to get some clarification? i apologize in advance if this question sounds silly.
Click to expand...

Its not silly.......basically you catch a powerclean in a higher almost standing position.

A normal clean is more efficent
 
Zander1983 said:
Another nice post. Keep them coming :garza:
Click to expand...

Ok this should be of value to everyone here - from Glenn Pendlay

now let me end this post by giving you a few of my opinions on what is neccessary and what is not, and what i feel many people do wrong in training.

1. all sorts of things work. this is evidenced by the many types of programs which produce elite athletes, often these programs use principles which seem to directly opose each other.

2. although all kinds of things work... with any program, you must load the athlete for a period of time sufficiently to produce an adaptation response, and you must then allow recovery before competition.

3. many programs dont load the athlete sufficiently. true, they may break down an athlete by monotonous heavy training, but they dont have any period within them that is truly hard enough to cause an adaptation response.

4. most programs allow inadequate recovery. research over several sports suggests that even elite athletes are often not recovered on competition day.

5. two weeks of taper isnt enough. weightlifting and other strength sports are similar to endurance sports in this regard, it has been know for years that endurance athletes experienced an "overreaching" phase 4 or 5 weeks after intense training... the same is true of strength training... athletes and coaches should take advantage of this.

6. too many people are in a rut. they dont train harder than they are used to for fear of overtraining, and they dont program sufficient easy or rest weeks for fear of getting weaker. im not advocating doing more work overall in an 8 week period, im advocating that it should be divided up differently. train far harder than you are used to during a 10-14 day stress period in the middle of the cycle, and do less than you are capable of during the taper period. you should never be training as hard as you can... you should be either training HARDER than you thought you could or you should be training LESS than you are capable of and recovering.
 
Colin, ever read what "John Smith" posts over there?

I havne't read over there in a long time though.
 
Karma to CC

I have a question, I wonder if after he "trained for a few months and got 20 reps with 500 pounds" If his single went up?

I know the easy answer is yes, but the way he went about it is a little strange.

So I`m guessing if his max did go up, then he would be incorporating 20 rep stuff into his training now. I just want to understand the theory of the rep schemes a little more.
 
Well it depends, but considering the way he trained, powerlifter style, and being an advanced lifter, I think it probably went down. By concentrating on higher reps, his nueral effeciency would have dropped and his fast twitch fibers take on more endurance characteristics etc.
That is if he didn't do any low rep stuff heavy stuff.

For a begineer or intermediate lifter, 1RM could definitely go up.

I'm, just speculating however :)

here is what Glenn says on the subject
------

Hypertrophy: guys, i wrote this in responce to a question on the think muscle board... i thought it might be of interest to some of you here. if not, well no harm done i guess. there are basically 3 trainable factors involved in size and strength.

sarcoplasmic hypertrophy... does not directly increase strength but can effect it by increasing tendon angle at the attachment.
but of course increases size.

sarcomere hypertrophy... increases contractile proteins in muscle thereby increasing strength directly and also size. neural effeciency... increase in the percentage of motor units that can be activated at any given time. no effect on size but increases strength.

the training for each quality exists on sort of a continuim. training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is high volume and low intensity... like 10 sets of 10 for a muscle.
training for sarcomere hypertrophy is med intensity and med volume... like 5 sets of 5 for a muscle.
training for increased neural effeciency is high intensity and low volume... like 5 max effort singles for a given muscle.

now, each style of training effects each muscle quality, but in different quantities. for example, 10 sets of 10 will result in a high degree of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, some sarcomere hypertrophy, and little or no increase in neural effeciency.
5 sets of 5 will increase all 3 qualities, but will effect sarcomere hypertrophy the most.
max effort singles will increase neural effeciency a great deal, but will have only a small effect on hypertrophy of the sarcomere, and little or no effect on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

so no matter how you train, you are likely to get both bigger and stronger... but the degree to which each quality is increased depends on the training.
as you get more advanced, the picture changes somewhat. for example, if a highly trained explosive athlete, like a shot-putter, did only workouts of 10 sets of 10 for a month, he would get hypertrophy of the sarcoplasm... but likely NO hypertrophy of the sarcomere and would likely LOSE neural effeciency, simply because he was so highly trainind in this quality beforehand that 10 sets of 10 would not be sufficient stimulus to even keep what neural effeciency he had. also... for a beginner, doing multiple singles would likely lead to some size increases. but for an advanced bodybuilder it would not be sufficient stimulus to keep the sarcoplamic hypertrophy already present. now, as far as whether training for one quality helps subsequent training for another quality, the answer is yes. for instance, an athlete who is only concerned with explosive strength will still train at times with higher reps and experience some sarcoplamic hypertrophy... this "supports" later gains in sarcomere hypertrophy and neural effeciency by building work capacity (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy adds the neccessary ingredients such as cappillaries to the muscle to support high work capacity later in the training cycle, so the athlete can do a higher volume of work).
also, a bodybuilder who is only concerned with size will do most of his work with volumes and intensities of training which favor hypertrophy of both the sarcomere and the sarcoplasm. but heavy work done to increase neural effeciency will also help... the ability to activate more motor units during an all out effort will make the rest of his training more result producing and effecient.

as far as how to "cycle" these different types of work during a training cycle... well at almost all times during a training cycle you should do at least SOME work on each quality... if you totally neglect some portion of the muscle you will lose performance in that quality. however, you should shift your concentration of work from the least important quality for your sport over time to the most important. in other words... a bodybuilder might begin training for a contest 6 months away with more high intensity work, and gradually shift the emphasis over the months to more med. and low intensity work.
a strength athlete would do the opposite. hope this helped in some way.
 
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after reading these articles and keep seeing the author referencing jud logan, i never knew how good he was at powerclean i guess. jud logan lives in my town and is at the gym every day im there, and him and his friend help with the strength training for the football team ( i just graduated from high school), does anybody have any videos of him doing any lifts?
 
Yeah Jud Logan got his powerclean from 400 to 440 with Poliquin's help :) no clips though

it was stuck at 400 for 7 years and in 12 weeks Poliquin wrote him a program and got him out of a rut.
vertical jump during this program increased from 29 to 33 inches and overhead ball throw from 66-72 feet (16lbs) Starting bodyweight was 267- the finishing bodyweight was 272lbs

pretty amazing results for an advanced lifter!
 
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