How responsible is the UAW regarding Ford's situation?

[redguru]

lmao!

from what i understand matt came from humble beginnings, a soldier as well. do you think his success(and god bless him) has gone to his head. i can see how easy that would be.

He was an Army paratrooper, Junior Officer, I believe, hence SkyWalker

 

[mrplunkey]

your not picking up on what im saying, union hand joe can be fired for any reason and it doesnt have to be a reason outside his contract. at that point its up to union hand joe and the union to follow up. whether or not the firing was justified is another story.

now if joe is fired for a reason that his contract does not cover but his company policy covers then joe is shit out of luck. company policy supercedes a contract. but usually a contract is within the constraints of company policy.

now ofcourse state and federal law supercedes it all. but, if you have an issue that is covered under company policy and you have a contract backing it up, then your recourse is thru the union, not the govt.

and i have seen many cases of re-instatement with backpay after going thru arbitration. and ive also seen cases with re-instatement without back pay. and ive seen cases without re-instatement. yer fired!

This is classic...

Ok, technically Joe "can" be fired, but it can voilate an employment contract. I guess we should qualify all our statements with "Joe can be legally fired without violating federal or state laws and/or an employment agreement."

And no, company policy *never* supercedes a union agreement. Employers would love it if it did, since company policy is set at the sole discretion of management -- Union contracts are not.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Ahhhhhhhhh .... something I can comment on.

I was an Executive at Ford, right in the WHQ building overlooking Southfield Road.
I was lucky and took very early retirement a few years ago. My work included many areas of the entire purchasing, assembly and sales oerations both in North America and Europe.

Here's what went wrong:
- We produced poor quality vehicles and then fixed and fixed them under warranty.
- Our designs lacked boldness, because this is a conservative company that takes no chances.
- Financial decisions and decision makers ruled ... especially in the purchasing of materials ... cheaper is better.
- In the 1990's, the value of the Company became inflated as reflected in the stock prices. The bubble burst.
- The UAW was always considered the enemy ... the element to eliminate in the process ..the lazy element that would joyfully produce junk to spite management. They lived the image. I found them almost criminal as they held out their hands for a fat pay check after sleeping all day.
- Management was always afraid and fought change of any kind. Yessing the Boss and dragging your feet equaled promotions.
- For years and years anything built was sold at a profit. The Japanese did nothing more that produce like vehicles perfectly. Ford and GM were fatted calves to be gored.
- So called Americans bought foreign vehicles with no idea or concern how this would destroy another American manufacturing industry and undermine the entire economy while bolstering Japan's.

So .. Who is at fault? Everyone.

Must it be "fixed"? You better believe it.
Ford and GM stock is in every pension plan around.
Foreign investors are holding their notes.
The US govenment is holding their notes.

Will it get fixed? yes ... But both Ford and GM will hold smaller market shares. The UAW has woken up ... Gettlefinger is a fine, smart man. The vehicles will be bolder in design - fun - with higher quality (which is already up).

Toyota will take the sales lead. They will then find themselves faced with the same dilemas as they get too large to control. (It is happening now in quality.)

I have 4,000 shares of F ... sold all the rest at $66. I''l make money because I bought at $7.

I'll always drive a F/LM because they are damn good and I get a super deal.

The end.

Bump for real insight. Thanks man.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

lmao!

from what i understand matt came from humble beginnings, a soldier as well. do you think his success(and god bless him) has gone to his head. i can see how easy that would be.

Paid my own way through school, served in the Army afterward. Had some good breaks after I got out, worked very hard. I let some stuff go to my head for a while. I thought more money meant that it actually mattered what I think, and was not sure of how to act given that financial success was not anything I was accustomed to. As weird as it sounds given the comforts I had, I wasn't comfortable with myself.

In short, I had lots of growing up to do. I did most of it, and have a much better perspective now. Stuff is just stuff. People matter a lot more, and now I use my resources to help out the people I care about so that they can learn and grow without daily stress.

thelion2005 had the best post in this thread.

 

[redguru]

thelion2005 had the best post in this thread.

Agreed.

 

[Spartacus]

Paid my own way through school, served in the Army afterward. Had some good breaks after I got out, worked very hard. I let some stuff go to my head for a while. I thought more money meant that it actually mattered what I think, and was not sure of how to act given that financial success was not anything I was accustomed to. As weird as it sounds given the comforts I had, I wasn't comfortable with myself.

In short, I had lots of growing up to do. I did most of it, and have a much better perspective now. Stuff is just stuff. People matter a lot more, and now I use my resources to help out the people I care about so that they can learn and grow without daily stress.

thelion2005 had the best post in this thread.

"well you seen much combat?"

 

[redguru]

"well you seen much combat?"

 

[spongebob]

This is classic...

Ok, technically Joe "can" be fired, but it can voilate an employment contract. I guess we should qualify all our statements with "Joe can be legally fired without violating federal or state laws and/or an employment agreement."

And no, company policy *never* supercedes a union agreement. Employers would love it if it did, since company policy is set at the sole discretion of management -- Union contracts are not.

review my original statement that you had a hard time grasping. it is still 100% correct.

a company can not fire joe for any reason at any time.

thx.

and yes company policy supercedes a contract, contracts are usually written within the bounds of company policy. im sorry but that is also 100% correct. companies have the absolute right to have company guidelines and policies.

where your confused is that your trying to believe that since company policy supercedes a union contract, that company policy covers all the items a union contract covers, it does not. company policy covers non-negotiated items, only a few items are crossed referenced, and company policy supercedes if they are not in line. that sir you can take to the bank!

remember now, company policy covers all employees, it can not single out one group or one person. it covers the CEO and it covers joe. at this point its simple logic, why in the world would they try and write company policy to screw joe?

for a company man you should know this.

 

[spongebob]

Paid my own way through school, served in the Army afterward. Had some good breaks after I got out, worked very hard. I let some stuff go to my head for a while. I thought more money meant that it actually mattered what I think, and was not sure of how to act given that financial success was not anything I was accustomed to. As weird as it sounds given the comforts I had, I wasn't comfortable with myself.

In short, I had lots of growing up to do. I did most of it, and have a much better perspective now. Stuff is just stuff. People matter a lot more, and now I use my resources to help out the people I care about so that they can learn and grow without daily stress.

thelion2005 had the best post in this thread.

sounds good man. im glad your finding where your comfortable.

and i agree, lion had an excellent post. real objective considering he was a company man.

 

[mrplunkey]

review my original statement that you had a hard time grasping. it is still 100% correct.

a company can not fire joe for any reason at any time.

thx.

and yes company policy supercedes a contract, contracts are usually written within the bounds of company policy. im sorry but that is also 100% correct. companies have the absolute right to have company guidelines and policies.

where your confused is that your trying to believe that since company policy supercedes a union contract, that company policy covers all the items a union contract covers, it does not. company policy covers non-negotiated items, only a few items are crossed referenced, and company policy supercedes if they are not in line. that sir you can take to the bank!

remember now, company policy covers all employees, it can not single out one group or one person. it covers the CEO and it covers joe. at this point its simple logic, why in the world would they try and write company policy to screw joe?

for a company man you should know this.

If company policy supercedes union contracts, why doesn't Ford just over-ride the elements of it's existing UAW contract that it doesn't like? Let's see... "It is now Ford's company policy to provide Pensions at the sole discretion of the company." Wow... that would make their current pension disaster go away with a few strokes of the word processor. Let's keep going... "Ford no longer recognizes wages by job class and had the absolute right to set hourly rates on a per-individual basis."... Wow! Another problem just went away.

I guess all those Ford managers and their lawyers aren't as clever as you are. They don't need to negotiate with UAW, they just need to rewrite their company policies. Cool! I should drop then a note and see if they will pay me the big bucks!

And I don't know where you get this crap, but company policy doesn NOT have to cover all employees uniformly. That's just from frigging Mars... The policies that apply to Joe most definately do not have to apply to the CEO and the written policies often spell those differences out.