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How much HCG is bad?

exlax

New member
Guys I got a question. I have a buddy that told me he read some study that says anything past 500iu's of HCG at a time can damage leydig cells. Yet, I'm consistently seeing reccomended doses of up to 5000ius a week. Even if you do 500ius ED, that's still 3500ius.

Is he wrong or what? YOu guys got any studies showin otherwise?

I'm doin an 8.5 week cycle and was going to start HCG a few weeks before the cycle ended at 500ius E4th day and then bump it up to E3rd day at the same doseage come PCT time. Am I goin to low? what would you guys reccomend?
 
500 twice/week MAX throughout the entire cycle (stop before PCT) was considered proper HCG administration per SWALE (HRT Doc). Anything over CAN cause leydig cell damage.
 
Whacked said:
500 twice/week MAX throughout the entire cycle (stop before PCT) was considered proper HCG administration per SWALE (HRT Doc). Anything over CAN cause leydig cell damage.


Finally an answer consistent to my buddy's. I've been discussing this with him for hours on end. In fact, he even mentioned the Dr. Swale study to me, but I forgot about that.

Whacked,
if that's a s low doseage, why do people go with such cracky dosages like 5000ius per week, etc?

Also, is it neccessary to start HCG riht away since you're not even suppressed yet from day one?
 
I'm pretty sure I've read that Swale wouldn't mind seeing his patients use 250iu's ED. I've also read articles by other docs that say anything over 500iu's a day can be harmful.
 
ExLax said:
Finally an answer consistent to my buddy's. I've been discussing this with him for hours on end. In fact, he even mentioned the Dr. Swale study to me, but I forgot about that.

Whacked,
if that's a s low doseage, why do people go with such cracky dosages like 5000ius per week, etc?

Also, is it neccessary to start HCG riht away since you're not even suppressed yet from day one?


I think the method of using high doses HCG is done after sever atrophy has occurred. The idea behind using small doses continually is that you prevent the atrophy in the first place.


I have seen data on clinical use of HCG to bring back the testes and they used some very high amounts and sometimes for many months.
 
so if you continuosly run HCG through a 8.5 week cycle, say 500ius E4th day and you stop one week before the cycle ends, then start again when PCT starts and do it for 3 weeks for 500ius E3rd day. Could this potentially desensythnized me to HCG running it during the cycle at that dose/frequency? And is that okay for PCT along with 100mg Clomid ED/20mg
 
How you run hcg should depend largly on the cycle that you are going to run. You dont need to run hcg 2x/week for the entire cycle for a small var cycle. At the same time, someone who never comes off is gonna run hcg differently than people who run short cycles. People run unnesecary amounts of hcg all the time. Post up your cycle and I'll tell you how I would run the hcg.
 
60days ED 100mg test prop
50days EOD 150mg NPP
50mg proviron throughout cycle

This is my 5th cycle, hope i'm not goin to crazy on the doseages??
 
ExLax said:
60days ED 100mg test prop
50days EOD 150mg NPP
50mg proviron throughout cycle

This is my 5th cycle, hope i'm not goin to crazy on the doseages??
You're only running an 8wk cycle with normal doses. A basic level of hcg is all that is needed. Run it wks 7-8 and then start pct. If you choose to run it during the cycle, at most you'd only need 1000iu broken into 2 shots EOW. I wouldnt even bother running it during a cycle like this unless you really started to see atrophy.
 
From Dr. Swale:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
 
Outtlaw said:
You're only running an 8wk cycle with normal doses. A basic level of hcg is all that is needed. Run it wks 7-8 and then start pct. If you choose to run it during the cycle, at most you'd only need 1000iu broken into 2 shots EOW. I wouldnt even bother running it during a cycle like this unless you really started to see atrophy.

I asked a buddy of mine and he wanted me to post it up on here.

"what about the significance of strict doseing knowing the half life is 4 days for HCG. Knowing that the HPTA gets shut down regardless of noticeable atrophy, how can ANYONE refute the viability of a COMPENSATIVE hcg dose while on cycle to prevent what would be a much more difficult task of returning to full HPTA function post cycle?"
 
ExLax said:
I asked a buddy of mine and he wanted me to post it up on here.

"what about the significance of strict doseing knowing the half life is 4 days for HCG. Knowing that the HPTA gets shut down regardless of noticeable atrophy, how can ANYONE refute the viability of a COMPENSATIVE hcg dose while on cycle to prevent what would be a much more difficult task of returning to full HPTA function post cycle?"
I might agree if you were running a heavy dosed cycle. But with that cycle you should recover just fine with the protocol I laid out.
 
Outtlaw said:
I might agree if you were running a heavy dosed cycle. But with that cycle you should recover just fine with the protocol I laid out.


OH yeah he also said:

1000iu EOW is better than nothing mind you, however it is adding more fluxuation and chaos in the environment and adding more stress to the HTPA than either not or doing it right.
 
ExLax said:
OH yeah he also said:

1000iu EOW is better than nothing mind you, however it is adding more fluxuation and chaos in the environment and adding more stress to the HTPA than either not or doing it right.
Well, you seemed like you were pretty set on running hcg for the entire cycle. I dont think it's necesary. If it was me I'd just use it at the end before pct. And if I absolutely felt I needed it around week 3 or 4 to help with atrophy, then I'd use it then. You can run it however you want. There's more than one way to do it. I dont want to get into a debate about which method is the right or wrong way to run hcg. I can only give you advise based on what's worked for me and other people on these boards.
 
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