how much do steroids increase strength?

[biteme]

I logged on to a Powerlifting site today and noticed that if I competed (which I haven't done in 15 years) that I would be the state record holder champion in my weight class in some of the organizations for the state of Texas. My weight class is 198 or 205, I'm 38 and I should be able to press 400 no problem. Not close to to the american or world record but not bad. I might be able to get as much as 440 based on my recent lifts, if my shoulder can take it. In July I started taking 250 mgs of test a week, My strength went up a little. I increased the dosage to around 500 mgs(I think it's underdosed) and my strength went up further. I rep with 225 normally to avoid injury. I started at 18 reps steroid free. I actually went up to 24 reps with Norandriol but I was fatter. The other day I got up 27 reps with 225, I've been lifting for 24 years non-stop. WHERE IS THE CAP ON THE STRENGTH LIMIT FOR STEROID DOSAGES? fOR INSTANCE, IF I INCREASE MY DOSAGE TO 1000 MGS., HOW MUCH MORE STRENGTH CAN I EXPECT? IS THERE A MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF AAS WHERE NO FURTHER STRENGTH CAN BE GAINED?

 

[spatts]

The more androgenic, the more agressiveness, the more perceived strength...fina's a big hit. By the same note, anavar works on the creatine pathway, and (if you can afford it) it's about one of the best strength drugs out there. My personal opinion? You don't need a gram of test as much as you need a better routine. The last time I did 18 reps of something I was eating. Those numbers, if they break TX records, MUST be drug tested numbers. There are women lifting 400+ in the APF. If you trained for strength, use PL bench form (which you may already do), and worked on your speed, I'm sure you could blow yourself away with what you're capable of. Please don't be offended about my women's bench comment, I just want you to have a realisitc perception of what's expected, tested vs non-tested.

Do you have a meet picked out?

 

[biteme]

The more androgenic, the more agressiveness, the more perceived strength...fina's a big hit. By the same note, anavar works on the creatine pathway, and (if you can afford it) it's about one of the best strength drugs out there. My personal opinion? You don't need a gram of test as much as you need a better routine. The last time I did 18 reps of something I was eating. Those numbers, if they break TX records, MUST be drug tested numbers. There are women lifting 400+ in the APF. If you trained for strength, use PL bench form (which you may already do), and worked on your speed, I'm sure you could blow yourself away with what you're capable of. Please don't be offended about my women's bench comment, I just want you to have a realisitc perception of what's expected, tested vs non-tested.

Do you have a meet picked out?

I had to look that up to believe it. There are actually a few woman that can bench press over 400. That's amazing to me. If a woman my size can bench that much, all I want to know is what drugs is she taking and what is her routine? Because on an even playing field, there is no way that a woman is stronger than me. Now, I believe that I'm capable of benching well over 500 if I can avoid injuries. The reason I do high reps is because of my shoulder. I'm capable of the lower reps but don't often do them because i have not been powerlifting so it would be stupid to risk injury for nothing. Thanks for the info.

 

[biteme]

I just looked up the world record in the IPF for the master's division in the 90kg class. It is 495 from a guy from Czech. That's something to shoot for. I'll be 40 in less than 2 years.

 

[spatts]

Always do your best to beat yourself. That may sound cheesey, but there's ALWAYS someone stronger than you. Just keep learning all you can and busting your own PRs, and work your way up.

The deal with the bench isn't just drugs. It's the shirt, better tranining, better attitude, a sky's-the-limit viewpoint... Oh! ...and a bench shirt (yes, I said that twice). I bench about 250 in my shirt, and I'm a 180 pound female. I'd like to hit 300 by this time next year, but I too have shoulder issues. Not from traning heavy, but from benching "like a bodybuilder" for a year. Really jacked em up. Powerlifting has actually HELPED me. They're still my weak link though. My floor press is, and has always been, 177 pounds. My lockout (top 4-6 inches) is 403 pounds. So, they come together to allow me to move 250, but I know if I can bring my shoulders up, I would see the results I'm looking for. What did you do to your shoulders, exactly?

I really admire your drive...some people think 40 is old.

Again, I would encourage you to open your mind to your own strength potential. I could barely bench the bar without pain 7 months ago.

 

[Imnotdutch]

I'm failing to see how being able to bench 225 for high reps equates to a 400+ bench for a simgle. There is no correlation that I am aware of between doing that many reps for a weight and what you actually bench for a single.

I logged on to a Powerlifting site today and noticed that if I competed (which I haven't done in 15 years) that I would be the state record holder champion in my weight class in some of the organizations for the state of Texas. My weight class is 198 or 205, I'm 38 and I should be able to press 400 no problem. Not close to to the american or world record but not bad. I might be able to get as much as 440 based on my recent lifts, if my shoulder can take it. In July I started taking 250 mgs of test a week, My strength went up a little. I increased the dosage to around 500 mgs(I think it's underdosed) and my strength went up further. I rep with 225 normally to avoid injury. I started at 18 reps steroid free. I actually went up to 24 reps with Norandriol but I was fatter. The other day I got up 27 reps with 225, I've been lifting for 24 years non-stop. WHERE IS THE CAP ON THE STRENGTH LIMIT FOR STEROID DOSAGES? fOR INSTANCE, IF I INCREASE MY DOSAGE TO 1000 MGS., HOW MUCH MORE STRENGTH CAN I EXPECT? IS THERE A MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF AAS WHERE NO FURTHER STRENGTH CAN BE GAINED?

 

[zackdarnell]

Just curious- have you actually done the 400+lb bench, or is that based on # of reps you can do at 225?

 

[biteme]

Just curious- have you actually done the 400+lb bench, or is that based on # of reps you can do at 225?

It is easy to figure out. When i could bench press 225 for 17 reps, my max was 350. When I went up to 20 reps it went to 375. For you mathematicians there is a formula to use and it is generally accurate in predicting how much you can do for a single rep. 20 reps= 60Percent of max. 30= 50 percent. I haven't maxed since surpassing the 20 rep barrier, but there is no doubt that I can bench over 400 based on my rep gains which = strength gains. I will not argue because I know. 30 reps with 225 would= right around 450 on the bench. I did 27 last workout, so figure it out. I did 275x17 on the decline a few weeks ago, probably could go for 20 now.

 

[biteme]

I wish someone could answer my AAS question? I believe the more you take the stronger you will get. But what is the max amount where no further strength gains can be achieved. It only makes sense. Proffesional bodybuilders take massive amounts of AAS, powerlifters would only get stronger by doing the same thing I would figure.

 

[Imnotdutch]

It is easy to figure out. When i could bench press 225 for 17 reps, my max was 350. When I went up to 20 reps it went to 375. For you mathematicians there is a formula to use and it is generally accurate in predicting how much you can do for a single rep. 20 reps= 60Percent of max. 30= 50 percent. I haven't maxed since surpassing the 20 rep barrier, but there is no doubt that I can bench over 400 based on my rep gains which = strength gains. I will not argue because I know. 30 reps with 225 would= right around 450 on the bench. I did 27 last workout, so figure it out. I did 275x17 on the decline a few weeks ago, probably could go for 20 now.

Kinda interesting that such a simple formula works for you. I would have thought that with such high reps stamina was the issue rather than all out strength.

For whats its worth, the formula I use is given below......it starts to fail at higher reps but works well at lower reps.

1 rep max = 1 + (n x 0.03) x weight

As far as your AAS question goes, I see no physiological reason that would justify your theory that more AAS automatically gives more strength. From what you are saying about your increased weight I would suggest that the extra strength is coming from improved leverages due to the extra weight. In which case you just need to find a way to hold onto the extra weight. Of course I could be way off base on this.

 

[biteme]

Kinda interesting that such a simple formula works for you. I would have thought that with such high reps stamina was the issue rather than all out strength.

For whats its worth, the formula I use is given below......it starts to fail at higher reps but works well at lower reps.

1 rep max = 1 + (n x 0.03) x weight

As far as your AAS question goes, I see no physiological reason that would justify your theory that more AAS automatically gives more strength. From what you are saying about your increased weight I would suggest that the extra strength is coming from improved leverages due to the extra weight. In which case you just need to find a way to hold onto the extra weight. Of course I could be way off base on this.

I don't know about that forumula. I'll try it. If you're interested, see what you can do for 20 reps and see how it will be right at or close to 60 percent of your max. This formula has been in use for quite some time. 10 reps = 80 percent of max. 5=90. Beyond 30, I wouldn't know. As for the added weight causing my strength gain. That can't be the reason because I've been just as heavy, drug free. I've lost more fat and gained a little muscle. Not as much as I would like though.

 

[spatts]

Your AAS issue has SO many variables. History of use, receptor down-regulation, your body's ability to supress conversion, etc...there is no answer. More is not always better. For example, if it increases your blood pressure drastically, and you can't exert without light headedness, ringing ears, and imbalance...well, that doesn't sound optimal to me. You also have to be more specific than "AAS." Obviously, some AAS are going to be more androgenic than others. I think I answered your question the best I could when I suggested changing your training and outlook.

 

[zackdarnell]

I don't know about that forumula. I'll try it. If you're interested, see what you can do for 20 reps and see how it will be right at or close to 60 percent of your max. This formula has been in use for quite some time. 10 reps = 80 percent of max. 5=90. Beyond 30, I wouldn't know. As for the added weight causing my strength gain. That can't be the reason because I've been just as heavy, drug free. I've lost more fat and gained a little muscle. Not as much as I would like though.

This formula, while it may work for you, will not work for everyone. No one formula will work for everyone. And I'm willing to bet that sometime your formula will cease to work for you.

 

[Liftbig]

holy crap, by that formula i should be able to bench 250lbs 30 times, yeah friggin right, its hard enough for me to do high reps anyways(not strentgth related, i just lose count) i bet i could do 50% of my max for 10-12 reps. ive got to admit that i have a deep seeded hatred for any formula that attempts to guess your max. my feeling is just get on the bench and see what you can do.

reps= for me

 

[spatts]

Same here. I learned the hard way that no one around here REALLY cares what you lift unless it's logged with some federation. Good thing I low-balled my numbers. LOL

 

[Hannibal]

holy crap, by that formula i should be able to bench 250lbs 30 times, yeah friggin right, its hard enough for me to do high reps anyways(not strentgth related, i just lose count) i bet i could do 50% of my max for 10-12 reps. ive got to admit that i have a deep seeded hatred for any formula that attempts to guess your max. my feeling is just get on the bench and see what you can do.

reps= for me

PREACH ON BROTHA.....

"lose count"....same hear...anything over about 5

 

[biteme]

Your AAS issue has SO many variables. History of use, receptor down-regulation, your body's ability to supress conversion, etc...there is no answer. More is not always better. For example, if it increases your blood pressure drastically, and you can't exert without light headedness, ringing ears, and imbalance...well, that doesn't sound optimal to me. You also have to be more specific than "AAS." Obviously, some AAS are going to be more androgenic than others. I think I answered your question the best I could when I suggested changing your training and outlook.

From what I've read, receptor down-regulation is a myth. Especially when it comes to testosterone. I appreciate your attempt to answer the AAS question. Not to be sarcastic, but I don't care if anyone cares how much I can lift. I just wanted advice on how to get stronger. On those points I appreciate what tips were given. Now watch some smart ass chime in with if you didn't care if anyone cares how much you can lift then why did you post your #'s. There are a lot of assholes on these boards I've noticed. I'm proud of what I've accomplished so far but if you don't care, I don't care that you don't care.

 

[spatts]

We don't bite.

Receptor down-regulation isn't a myth. It's a physiological process. If you take the terminology off Elite and into the classroom, you will find that it's just an explanation for a receptor getting used to a particular neurotransmitter, and decreasing response as a result. It decreases the density or number of receptors...not a new fangled thing.

 

[Imnotdutch]

We don't bite.

Receptor down-regulation isn't a myth. It's a physiological process. If you take the terminology off Elite and into the classroom, you will find that it's just an explanation for a receptor getting used to a particular neurotransmitter, and decreasing response as a result. It decreases the density or number of receptors...not a new fangled thing.

This is a topic that has been discussed alot on the various boards. If I remember correctly, there have been problems showing conclusively that down regulation does actually happen. It makes sense that it would.......but proving it beyond reasonable doubt has been difficult. Thats science for ya I guess .

This is worth a read:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/androgen-receptors-02.htm

Kinda makes the point that this process is still considered hypothetical at least as far as AAS go.

 

[Imnotdutch]

From what I've read, receptor down-regulation is a myth. Especially when it comes to testosterone. I appreciate your attempt to answer the AAS question. Not to be sarcastic, but I don't care if anyone cares how much I can lift. I just wanted advice on how to get stronger. On those points I appreciate what tips were given. Now watch some smart ass chime in with if you didn't care if anyone cares how much you can lift then why did you post your #'s. There are a lot of assholes on these boards I've noticed. I'm proud of what I've accomplished so far but if you don't care, I don't care that you don't care.

Biteme, I think that you'l find that this and several other powerlifting boards have an unwritten code of conduct. The vast majority are very helpful and easy going.

 

[biteme]

This is a topic that has been discussed alot on the various boards. If I remember correctly, there have been problems showing conclusively that down regulation does actually happen. It makes sense that it would.......but proving it beyond reasonable doubt has been difficult. Thats science for ya I guess .

This is worth a read:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/androgen-receptors-02.htm

Kinda makes the point that this process is still considered hypothetical at least as far as AAS go.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting and helpful. There is so much to learn.

 

[DOM]

biteme

There are a lot of things that factor into your AAS question biteme.

First of all -- I don't believe that your AAS dose is going to have a strong correlation to your strength. Obviously taking 500mg test/week has increased your strength way over what it was naturally -- however, bumping your dose up to 1000mg/week will only show a small strength gain. In other words, 1000 is better than 500 for strength but not by much.

Second -- as spatts said, training plays a huge role. I don't think anybody takes more AAS on the planet than professional bodybuilders.... Yet few if any have benched 600, and I would bet they'd be lucky to get a 1000 lb QUARTER squat. This is because powerlifters train primarily with very low reps. Most of us on this board cannot remember the last time we did a set of 27. OK, this is not to say that powerlifters don't use AAS. I'm just saying -- it's your training methods that are going to limit your bench, not your AAS use.

Third -- I dont' know your AAS history dude, but if you've been on since June, and this is your first run with AAS, then I would really consider coming off for a while. If you do have experience, then color me purple.

I guess my answer to your main question is that yes, AAS give an initial strength boost -- it will depend on your doses, and how androgenic the AAS are. After that initial boost though, they will only aid your training in gaining strength. More AAS does not equate to more strength beyond the normal dosages.

Takes spatts' advice, she knows what she's talking about. If you adjust your training, you'll have way better chances at that 450 bench than if you try to reach it by AAS.

 

[biteme]

Thanks for the input DOM, that is what I really wanted to know, and if accurate, you answered it. I have taken AAS several cycles, but not for 6 years. Yall are right. I know. If I trained for powerlifting, I could lift more. I didn't have any intentions to until I noticed how strong I was getting. Because of past injuries, I don't know if my shoulders could take that kind of training seclusively. What I normally do is one set to failure with 225. On my next set, I can't do nearly as many reps, then I will go up to 315 for reps sometimes because at that point, I can't do enough to seriously risk injury. I could max out, but there's never been a reason to since it would possibly injure me. From what I'm hearing these bench press suits may aid a lot in preventing injury. I also wonder how much they can increase your bench. Say, if you can bench 420 without a pause, how much can you bench with a double-ply suit?

 

[spatts]

Imnotdutch, I think the difference is whether down regulation exists or whether it exists for androgen receptors. I can't comment on the latter, but in general, yes down regulation occurs in other receptors, as a function. Just like when you open a receptor to crack, it never quite goes back the same way, so the next time around, it takes more to get the receptor to react, etc...just about any physiological addiction could apply.

Now I've seen this happen with AS/AAS. I've seen ladies take 5mg winny, up to 10 one cycle, and then the next cycle, they don't start seeing the same results until they get to 12-15, etc... I suppose it's fair to say that the scientific data is inconclusive, but the anecdotal evidence seems to rear its ugly head in many cases.

In either case, I don't think 500 extra mgs of test will do more for him than speed work and board presses.

 

[biteme]

floor presses, board presses, speed work, benching with chains. I've heard of all this but don't know what it is. Can training like this increase your strength dramatically?

 

[spatts]

Sidenote: If more myonuclei means more androgenic receptors, then wouldn't it take more androgen to get the same results since it's being spread over a wider number of receptors? I'm thinking of it like 1 cup of water and 5 little bowls. You fill those bowls all the way up with that 1 cup of water. If you then take 1 cup of water and 10 little bowls, it would take more water to fill those 10 little cups to the same height as the previous 5. That may have made no sense at all...but I'm curious. Thoughts?

 

[biteme]

Sidenote: If more myonuclei means more androgenic receptors, then wouldn't it take more androgen to get the same results since it's being spread over a wider number of receptors? I'm thinking of it like 1 cup of water and 5 little bowls. You fill those bowls all the way up with that 1 cup of water. If you then take 1 cup of water and 10 little bowls, it would take more water to fill those 10 little cups to the same height as the previous 5. That may have made no sense at all...but I'm curious. Thoughts?

Yeah, I'm curious also. BTW, that article said that the no down-regulating only applies to testosterone and not the designer steroid drugs such as winstrol, etc.

 

[spatts]

I thought it was referring to androgenic receptors in general...perhaps I need to revisit the article.

Biteme, there are many ways to train, and you have to do what works for you. What works for me is Westside. Roughly, it looks like this:

Sunday...Dynamic (Speed) Bench
Monday...Max Effort Squat/Dead/GM
Tuesday...Sled Dragging or other GPP work
Wednesday...Max Effort Bench
Thursday...Sled Dragging or other GPP work
Friday....Speed Squats

I do active recovery every day, sometimes several times a day (see the sticky at the top of the training board). Each workout has two main moves, that are low TUT (1-3 RM on max days) or speed work, then the accessory work is in a higher rep range (for me, 10-15 of 3-4 sets). For example, ME Bench day might be Reverse band press to a 1RM, close grip 2 board to a 3RM, then JM presses for tris, reverse grip rows for lats, and face pulls for delts. That's it. There are 6 reasons I like this training method: Low rep work for strength, high rep work for hypertrophy, speed work, GPP, active recovery, and planned rest (deliberate intervals of time between max lift days, etc). In other words, variety. I grow like a weed, and the numbers keep going up too.

This thread shows some samples of our training:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=142351

 

[biteme]

I thought it was referring to androgenic receptors in general...perhaps I need to revisit the article.

Biteme, there are many ways to train, and you have to do what works for you. What works for me is Westside. Roughly, it looks like this:

Sunday...Dynamic (Speed) Bench
Monday...Max Effort Squat/Dead/GM
Tuesday...Sled Dragging or other GPP work
Wednesday...Max Effort Bench
Thursday...Sled Dragging or other GPP work
Friday....Speed Squats

I do active recovery every day, sometimes several times a day (see the sticky at the top of the training board). Each workout has two main moves, that are low TUT (1-3 RM on max days) or speed work, then the accessory work is in a higher rep range (for me, 10-15 of 3-4 sets). For example, ME Bench day might be Reverse band press to a 1RM, close grip 2 board to a 3RM, then JM presses for tris, reverse grip rows for lats, and face pulls for delts. That's it. There are 6 reasons I like this training method: Low rep work for strength, high rep work for hypertrophy, speed work, GPP, active recovery, and planned rest (deliberate intervals of time between max lift days, etc). In other words, variety. I grow like a weed, and the numbers keep going up too.

This thread shows some samples of our training:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=142351

Thanks a lot. I need to find a gym around Dallas where people do serious powerlifting. Train for a few months and see what I can do.

 

[zackdarnell]

Originally posted by spatts This thread shows some samples of our training:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=142351

Just to note- it says you have to be Platinum to view the thread.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Sidenote: If more myonuclei means more androgenic receptors, then wouldn't it take more androgen to get the same results since it's being spread over a wider number of receptors? I'm thinking of it like 1 cup of water and 5 little bowls. You fill those bowls all the way up with that 1 cup of water. If you then take 1 cup of water and 10 little bowls, it would take more water to fill those 10 little cups to the same height as the previous 5. That may have made no sense at all...but I'm curious. Thoughts?

Not necessarily. You would be right if the number of receptor molecules rivalled the number of molecules of agonist and the binding constant was very low. However this is generally untrue. If this situation were to occur then having a co-operative binding curve (most receptors do) would be totally pointless.......

 

[circusgirl]

We don't bite.

Receptor down-regulation isn't a myth. It's a physiological process. If you take the terminology off Elite and into the classroom, you will find that it's just an explanation for a receptor getting used to a particular neurotransmitter, and decreasing response as a result. It decreases the density or number of receptors...not a new fangled thing.

This is how caffeine addiction works isn't it? The receptors down-regulate because caffeine stimulates "wakey-uppy" receptors so much (heh, scientific I know) that in its abscence they don't produce much in the way of what they used to -> headaches and bleary-headedness without the demon bean, yes?

 

[Qrios]

I think we could separate two effects of the steroids.

1) They give us(you) better recovery, (the muscles not the nervous system). You can train more.

2) Some aas stimulate the cns more and get you stronger while you are "on".

 

[BodybuildingUniverse]

I think what the formula doesn't take into account is that the 225 is done without a shirt and the max isn't. My opinion is that 20-30 reps is way too far away from a MAX to tell me what I can do. I think you'll have to load the bar to truly find out.

As far as the drugs, if you have only used test than your strength possibilities have only been touched upon. Lots of other choices and stacks available to knock the strength up but it will plateau. Probably best asked on the anabolic discussion board though.

 

[Thaibox]

I find 1rm formulas to be relatively useless. A formula cannot be applied to the potential output of an organism as complex as the human body, especially with all of the variables placed upon it internally and externally by a myriad of factors not included within that formula. Genetics, injuries, diet, muscle fiber types, body type, length of appendages, motivation, form, and on and on.

With regard to gear and strength increases, in my opinion, the amount of AAS does not correlate directly to the increase in strength. 500 mg of test may give you 2X the effect of 250 mg. However, 2 grams of test will NOT give you 2X the effect of 1 gram. However, the sides increase dramatically at some point. Therefore it turns into a risk versus reward decision on your part.

Also, I would say that you would see much greater strength increases by combining certain compounds that compliment one another rather than increasing a single compound. Personally, any type of test and base with Winny and Tren make me lift small buildings with ease.