how do you know when you are ready...

[CollegeKid2]

...to turn to the dark side? i ask because 3 years ago i thought i was, and started looking for info online (which is coincidentally how i found this website). needless to say it would have been idiotic to have turned to gear then, as i was a tiny fuck. but finding this website helped me out a ton in terms of eating and training, i've gained 35lbs since then.

so i ask, how does one make a rational decision about juicing? right now i have an opportunity to get some, which may not last very long. i'm almost 21, my natural gains have been way better than i ever expected them to be (got a sixpack, can crank out pullups done with 50lbs attached, and i'm this close to hitting 405 on raw deadlifts) but at the same time i want to get bigger and leaner and stronger, which going on cycle i know i would do.

so again, i'm feeling the newbie urge to do it, but it's not like i've hit a plateau or anything. so when in your training is a good point to say: "i'm ready"?

 

[STEP OFF]

no one can answer that except for you. some believe you shouldnt touch it until you've reached your max potential, while some believe it doesn't matter ... only you can decide. just make sure you're familiar with the possible side effects, how to deal with them (ex. gyno) and how to properly run post cycle therapy .. takes a lot of research on your part. check out the anabolic forum for more info.

 

[c3ntrifug3]

I suggest you head over to the anabolic board. Those guys can give you some pretty good advice on first cycles (as far as timing and doses go).

 

[Tweakle]

You think 405 on deads is close to your natural potential? The average guy is good for 500+ at least.

Obviously it's your body but I think you should wait another couple of years.

 

[theoak01]

do you want to compete or goto a higher level of the sport in some degree? if so id say go for it,otherwise maybe not,its really up to you bro

 

[rbrown]

I would suggest that there is never a time to "turn to the darkside." If you train hard, eat right, ect., you will make good gains--I feel my lifts are a testimony to that fact if nothing else. Aside from the possible health risks, I would be seriously concerned about the psychological aspects. In my 15 years of lifting, I have seen many lifters go by the wayside after taking the juice. The reason for this is that your gains will go up to a level that you simply cannot sustain without the stuff. Once you go off, and you will have to go off (unless you are rich and crazy), you will come back in the gym and be upset when you find that you cannot do what you could do when you were on. Many people cannot handle that fact and simply quit; and I must say I would find that depressing.

 

[needsize]

You think 405 on deads is close to your natural potential? The average guy is good for 500+ at least.

Obviously it's your body but I think you should wait another couple of years.

There is no way the average guy is good for a 500lb pull

As for the juicing question, personally I think you're best waiting to you cant grow any more naturally, why bother taking gear for something you can accomplish without. Then when you hit that limit, you hit up your first cycle, which you can easily gain 20+ lbs on, which in one shot puts you 20lbs past your genetic limit

rbrown, I disagree with some of what you said. What happens when you hit your natural genetic limit, and its no where near your goals, do you just pack it in and say, of well, good enough??? If you are that dedicated to the sport then thats not good enough. I waited 10 years for my first cycle, and have accompished some good lifts, ie deadlift 500lbs for 10 reps. And during the times when I am clean, I am able to maintain these lifts

 

[Tweakle]

Ah yes, that doesn't read how I meant it to.

I meant the average guy (genetically) should be capable of pulling at least 500 if he's close to his potential. Not that the average gym bunny can pull 500, that'd break his back in several places

I saw some old pics of you bro and you're a great example of someone who was actually near his limit.

 

[rbrown]

There is no way the average guy is good for a 500lb pull

As for the juicing question, personally I think you're best waiting to you cant grow any more naturally, why bother taking gear for something you can accomplish without. Then when you hit that limit, you hit up your first cycle, which you can easily gain 20+ lbs on, which in one shot puts you 20lbs past your genetic limit

rbrown, I disagree with some of what you said. What happens when you hit your natural genetic limit, and its no where near your goals, do you just pack it in and say, of well, good enough??? If you are that dedicated to the sport then thats not good enough. I waited 10 years for my first cycle, and have accompished some good lifts, ie deadlift 500lbs for 10 reps. And during the times when I am clean, I am able to maintain these lifts

needsize:

I'll start by saying I have known many friends and lifting partners that have used, and in the case of many of them, I can still respect their lifts, ect. I don't look down on them; I just have my own view of the subject.

I think it is important to keep the whole lifting thing in perspective. What if my goal was to beat Brent Mikesell on the squat. For me personally, I know that goal would likely take me close to death in terms of the amount of stuff I would likely have to take to get there. To me, a goal like that is not rational. When I am 50, I will hopefully have a long time left to live and I doubt I will really care anything about lifting huge numbers.

I do not have any goals except to do my best; and by best I mean get to my genetic potential. The point I was trying to make above is that I have discovered in the last few years that it is possible to get a lot farther drug free than most lifters believe possible. Many people think I am on; and to that response I say "Thanks."

I'm not bragging, but to make my point, I will tell you that at 6' 2" tall and 255 lbs bodyweight, I plan to hit 2100 lbs next February life-time drug free with an 850 or better squat. What is my point? My point is that you can hit some big numbers without drugs. Will you have periods where you do not make good gains? Of course, but over the long haul I think it is possible.

I realize that I probably have better genetics for lifting than the average guy. However, I have a few training partners who I know to be drug free also and I am seeing their gains go up, up, up simply with our training, and to some extent I'm quite sure I could get anyone out there to make great gains with my knowledge.

I'll end this rambling with saying to the 20 year old that is asking the question--at 20 you sure as heck have no clue as to whether you are even close to your genetic potential and I'm quite sure that you are not. If you do take the stuff, I'd wait as long as you can, and then get educated. Don't just buy some stuff off of the street that you really don't even know about.

 

[CollegeKid2]

do you want to compete or goto a higher level of the sport in some degree? if so id say go for it,otherwise maybe not,its really up to you bro

what it basically comes down to is that i'm short (barely 5'6) and have very low BF, so while i'm relatively strong, i do not look it. i outlift many guys at the gym who i perceive as having much better (=bigger) physiques, and this pisses me off. this is one of the reasons why i'm contemplating it. however, like i said, i know i havent reached my natural limit yet, but i don't think i could wait 10yrs like needsize did.

 

[needsize]

rbrown, you make some good points, I agree that many people think they are at their genetic limit both in size and strength, long before they actually are. For me that limit came after I had been training seriously for around 7 years, and I still put in another 3 years of busting my ass with no gains at all, before I decided it had to be the dark side for me.
I started off a 130lbs hardgainer, and my goals have always to be a competitive bodybuilder. there is no way I could meet those goals naturally. To date I've gone from 130lbs to 245lbs at 11% bf and just under 5'9", and even then its not enough. So there really was no other choice for me

 

[revexrevex]

Maybe you guys should distinguish between physique components, and a strength component?

 

[rbrown]

rbrown, you make some good points, I agree that many people think they are at their genetic limit both in size and strength, long before they actually are. For me that limit came after I had been training seriously for around 7 years, and I still put in another 3 years of busting my ass with no gains at all, before I decided it had to be the dark side for me.
I started off a 130lbs hardgainer, and my goals have always to be a competitive bodybuilder. there is no way I could meet those goals naturally. To date I've gone from 130lbs to 245lbs at 11% bf and just under 5'9", and even then its not enough. So there really was no other choice for me

I can respect that position. I have been training for a long time and do not look like a bodybuilder. Furthermore, I am fairly sure I could not look anything like a pro bodybuilder without using--though I'm fairly sure I could look pretty good and compete on a local level without drugs--which kind of goes to my point.

If looking like a pro is something that is important to you, and it obviously is, I think you just have to get as educated as you can and know when to say when. Based on guys I know who have taken stuff off of the street with little education on the matter, I can say that the drugs can be very dangerous; and in the case of one of my friends, it led to his premature death at 28 years old.

When looking at long time bodybuilders who apparently take loads of stuff like Ronnie Coleman and many others, it seems that they must be very educated about what they are doing--otherwise it seems they would be dropping dead like flies. I am convinced that those guys are getting expert medical advice on how and what to take and in what combinations. I also think they are taking the "good stuff" meaning that they are taking the kinds of drugs that maximize gains while minimizing harmful side effects.

When the kid at your local gym tries to do the same thing without the education and without the money or connections to get the "good stuff" I am concerned about what the results may be.

Really the point I am getting at though is that we are all, presumably, bodybuilding or strongman competing or powerlifting for FUN. When a hobby that is done for fun goes too far and causes you to miss out on a whole other part of your life (i.e. the later part of it), I think that is a shame and the result of short sightedness and a loss of perspective about what is important in life.

Happy training.

 

[needsize]

education is definitely the key, thats why it took me so long to do my first cycle. I am also under the supervision of my Doc who does blood tests every two months, all of which keep coming back in the normal range

 

[revexrevex]

Rbrown, judging from the pics at your website.... you could definetely compete as a bodybuilder.... linder on the other hand.....

 

[Sebass67]

what it basically comes down to is that i'm short (barely 5'6) and have very low BF, so while i'm relatively strong, i do not look it. i outlift many guys at the gym who i perceive as having much better (=bigger) physiques, and this pisses me off. this is one of the reasons why i'm contemplating it. however, like i said, i know i havent reached my natural limit yet, but i don't think i could wait 10yrs like needsize did.

Sounds like you got a good napolean complex going on...

 

[Synpax]

Here is some reasoning on why you should. I hopefully will learn something in the post that refutes it, if that is possible.

Why would you not want to get the most gain for each and every rep that you do? Why wait until you've met some kind of 'limit' before you take full advantage of making gains from each workout?

It's sort of like not eating right. Why waste a portion of your potential gains in the gym by not eating well enough to grow? Then ask - why waste a portion of your potential gains in the gym by not safely cycling?

 

[needsize]

Here is some reasoning on why you should. I hopefully will learn something in the post that refutes it, if that is possible.

Why would you not want to get the most gain for each and every rep that you do? Why wait until you've met some kind of 'limit' before you take full advantage of making gains from each workout?

It's sort of like not eating right. Why waste a portion of your potential gains in the gym by not eating well enough to grow? Then ask - why waste a portion of your potential gains in the gym by not safely cycling?

Because your body gets used to the steroids fairly quickly, and after a while its hard to keep growing even while juicing. So if you hit them up too early, you'll peak at a much smaller size. I've seen it happen both ways, guys start way too early, and waste the wicked growth you get off the first couple cycles, on size you could have easily gained naturally. i fall into the other category, and have size that guys who have done 5x the amount of cycles as me have trouble matching

 

[Lord_Suston]

if you are still making gains then don't use unless your livelyhood depends on it.... If you compete and get $ for it or get scholarsahips do it, but not if you are gaining and have a napolean complex