Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I had a discussion with my doc the other day about free vs bound test and he said there was no way to increase free test medically other than increasing total test to the point there was no more protein for it to bind to. I thought I read in Anabolics 2K that there was a way either medically or supplementally. Does anyone know if it is possible? Thanks.
How do you increase free vs bound testosterone?
- Thread starter NCLifter
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Scotsman
New member
Several companies have intodiced mixed isoflavones onto the market. The claim is that by filling binding sites and blocking binding of estrogen free test(FT) is raised. Methoxyisoflavone is the most common one on the market currently. EAS and Iron Curtain Labs both have these in OTC form. Isoflavones in studies have raised FT significantly without corresponding overall test increase in serum levels. THe easiest way still is ro raise overall test above the binding effeciency level.
Bulldog_10
New member
Arimidex, Proscar?
NCLifter,
Yes there sure is a way to release all protein bound testosterone in your body. The substance that does it is called Di-indolyl-methane or DIM for short. Not only does it release protein bound testosterone, but it also has the added benefit of improving estrogen metabolism, converting carcinogenic and fat causing estrogens picked up from toxins or converted from testosterones into healthy estrogens that become metabolized/inactivated more quickly.
DIM is a metabolite (comes from) of Indole-3-Carbinol, which is most abundant in cruciferous veggies. However it in its pure form is many times stronger than just eating broccoli. It's effects are so strong that some people get kidney pains while taking it. So be careful how you dose it.
It comes either as I3C or DIM with the DIM being more potent.
Yes there sure is a way to release all protein bound testosterone in your body. The substance that does it is called Di-indolyl-methane or DIM for short. Not only does it release protein bound testosterone, but it also has the added benefit of improving estrogen metabolism, converting carcinogenic and fat causing estrogens picked up from toxins or converted from testosterones into healthy estrogens that become metabolized/inactivated more quickly.
DIM is a metabolite (comes from) of Indole-3-Carbinol, which is most abundant in cruciferous veggies. However it in its pure form is many times stronger than just eating broccoli. It's effects are so strong that some people get kidney pains while taking it. So be careful how you dose it.
It comes either as I3C or DIM with the DIM being more potent.
Cornellius
New member
Proviron does it, by binding to the transportation proteins. Thus letting the same total test with less binding posibilities...so more free test.
I can find no research supporting the ideas that either DIM or isoflavones can increase testosterone levels through protein displacement. I would appreciate any information showing this effect.
That being said, isoflavones have been shown to INCREASE SHBG, due to their estrogenic activity. This leads to more proteins for testosterone to bind to. Several studies have shown isoflavones may DECREASE testosterone levels.
The only thing that I know that can alter bound testosterone levels would be insulin. Insulin increases the metabolism of carrier proteins, like SHBG, and in certain hyperinsulinemic conditions, such as PCOS, the patients have higher androgen levels. Unfortunately, insulin is also a great fatty tissue anabolic.
That being said, isoflavones have been shown to INCREASE SHBG, due to their estrogenic activity. This leads to more proteins for testosterone to bind to. Several studies have shown isoflavones may DECREASE testosterone levels.
The only thing that I know that can alter bound testosterone levels would be insulin. Insulin increases the metabolism of carrier proteins, like SHBG, and in certain hyperinsulinemic conditions, such as PCOS, the patients have higher androgen levels. Unfortunately, insulin is also a great fatty tissue anabolic.
I think the reason DIM hasn't caught on yet is because people just don't know about it. If you want research on it try Metagenics, I know they have spent alot of money on its research. It is still new and, for the most part, being sold by doctor's lines [of supplements] such as Complementary Prescriptions and Metagenics, rather than sports supplements companies (although they are starting to catch on).
Also because it doesn't increase testosterone levels (that catchy phrase people like to hear) but rather frees protein bound testosterone, which increases the amount of free (available) testosterone in the system.
Beyond this, I have no idea, except that it's not gear, and when people have access to gear such things seem trivial. Also there are so many sports supplement companies out there scamming people by marketing things that don't really work as claimed, and maybe people are tired of that so they don't give new things a chance.
Also because it doesn't increase testosterone levels (that catchy phrase people like to hear) but rather frees protein bound testosterone, which increases the amount of free (available) testosterone in the system.
Beyond this, I have no idea, except that it's not gear, and when people have access to gear such things seem trivial. Also there are so many sports supplement companies out there scamming people by marketing things that don't really work as claimed, and maybe people are tired of that so they don't give new things a chance.
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R
riskybiz007
Guest
interesting... bump
No idea about the efficacy of DIM etc. mate but there is a prescription medication that has been clinically proven to reduce the amount of sex hormone binding globulin, thereby elevating free testosterone. It's Andriol (Restandol in the UK). It's Organons oral testosterone undecanoate - yep the little red rugby balls that everyone loves to hate. Not great for building mass etc. but it does reduce SHBG, causing an improvement in the ratio of free to toal testosterone. I may have the refernces/papers somewhere if you need 'em.
Cheers mate.
Cheers mate.
Twisted_Steel
New member
I have yet to see any difinitive research on the use of isoflavanoids as stated in the aformentioned post. That said, Many of you have certainly researched the purported benefits that proviron can provide. Proviron is said to bind readily with a particular plasma cell refered to as Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG). Now, in theory one can begin the introduction of exogenous androgens with less impediment.
Before you sit down to compose you upcoming cycle(s). I suggest a simple experiment involving the use of Proviron for the span of 7-14 days at 100mg per day prior to. Then once ergogens are introduced reduce volume by 50mg and continue through out.
PEACE
Before you sit down to compose you upcoming cycle(s). I suggest a simple experiment involving the use of Proviron for the span of 7-14 days at 100mg per day prior to. Then once ergogens are introduced reduce volume by 50mg and continue through out.
PEACE
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Thanks for all the info. I'm taking 5 IU of humulin r post workout with my shake. Its not much, but I'm keeping almost all my gains and get bad ass pumps in the gym. I'm staying away from proviron and andriol because I need my damn test levels to recover. All I'm taking is clomid. I'll try the DIM too. I guess it cant hurt.
Scotsman
New member
Cockdezl-
Iron Curtain Labs has some research posted on their site about methoxy-isoflavone. It is the main ingredient in their gh-1000 product. Don't know how accurate the info is but you could look it up and see what you think. Their claim is that it helps increase free test levels without increasing overall levels. Also let us know what your thoughts on it are I am interested to get more opinions on this.
Cheers,
Scotsman
Iron Curtain Labs has some research posted on their site about methoxy-isoflavone. It is the main ingredient in their gh-1000 product. Don't know how accurate the info is but you could look it up and see what you think. Their claim is that it helps increase free test levels without increasing overall levels. Also let us know what your thoughts on it are I am interested to get more opinions on this.
Cheers,
Scotsman
NCLifter,
If you want something other than clomid to help raise overall testosterone levels look into Tribulus Terestris. I have been off my Fina cycle for 9 days, have been taking large dosages of Tribulus and have felt just fine so far, except for today when I forgot my megadoses of Tribulus; I felt deprived of testosterone while at the car dealership, I couldn't make up my mind, and when I did I still wasn't sure LOL.
I don't want to start a clomid cycle because I have heard crazy things about it.
If you want something other than clomid to help raise overall testosterone levels look into Tribulus Terestris. I have been off my Fina cycle for 9 days, have been taking large dosages of Tribulus and have felt just fine so far, except for today when I forgot my megadoses of Tribulus; I felt deprived of testosterone while at the car dealership, I couldn't make up my mind, and when I did I still wasn't sure LOL.
I don't want to start a clomid cycle because I have heard crazy things about it.
According to the Life Extension Institute (www.lef.org), Nettle Root can increase free testosterone. It was in a article on Male Hormone Modulation. Here is a quote from another article of theirs.
"A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site."
"A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site."
HARD,
I use roughly 8 grams per day of Bulgarian Tribulus. The different brands vary, but the one I use is Ultimate Nutrition brand Tribulus, which contains over 45% steroidal saponins (the more the better).
Also I have been stacking this with 6 grams per day of Siberian Ginseng Root (ROOT) which studies have shown also elevates testosterone levels (at this high dosage). The problem with high dosages of Siberian Gensing is that it will make you smell like you have eaten 15 LBS of fresh garlic bulb (LOL).
I use roughly 8 grams per day of Bulgarian Tribulus. The different brands vary, but the one I use is Ultimate Nutrition brand Tribulus, which contains over 45% steroidal saponins (the more the better).
Also I have been stacking this with 6 grams per day of Siberian Ginseng Root (ROOT) which studies have shown also elevates testosterone levels (at this high dosage). The problem with high dosages of Siberian Gensing is that it will make you smell like you have eaten 15 LBS of fresh garlic bulb (LOL).
I have seen numerous studies showing this, but now that I need it I can't find a good study. But from memory, test undecanoate is not any better than any other steroid at reducing SHBG levels, and physiologically should not be any different than propionate, cypionate, etc. The body is only seeing the testosterone portion of this molecule.
I have not seen any information concerning the mechanism of methoxyflavone's speculated anabolic properties. I have heard mixed reviews concerning this and other flavones, some get benefit, some get nothing. If it is truly anabolic, then the most likely limiting factor would be proper dose. Too many times the compound has potential, but the manufacturer sells it in low doses.
Scotsman
New member
I am on my second run with the iron curtain stuff. Works fairly well definately notice quicker recovery times. I take their recommended dosage so a 120day supply is $107-180, depending on where you get it from. Read something about the olympic athletes taking it at dosages 4-5 times that ICL recommends.
"test undecanoate is not any better than any other steroid at reducing SHBG levels, and physiologically should not be any different than propionate, cypionate, etc. The body is only seeing the testosterone portion of this molecule. "
That makes perfect sense when you put it like that mate. Cheers for putting me right - still on my BIG learning curve...
That makes perfect sense when you put it like that mate. Cheers for putting me right - still on my BIG learning curve...
cockdezl,
I have a friend, a pharmacist/chemist, who says he has seen no evidence that methoxyisoflavone does anything in humans. But he says there is one over the counter item that works as an "anabolic" called beta-ecdysterone. This can be extracted from the herb SUMA, but it has to be done properly. EAS is the only company he knows of that does it right (with their product: "Methoxyflavone" as it's called).
It works by increasing ribosome count, nitrogen retention, and protein synthesis in the muscles.
I asked him how this steroid would compare to others and he said it's not even as powerful as anavar.
Also it does not raise testosterone. This one uses a different path.
I have a friend, a pharmacist/chemist, who says he has seen no evidence that methoxyisoflavone does anything in humans. But he says there is one over the counter item that works as an "anabolic" called beta-ecdysterone. This can be extracted from the herb SUMA, but it has to be done properly. EAS is the only company he knows of that does it right (with their product: "Methoxyflavone" as it's called).
It works by increasing ribosome count, nitrogen retention, and protein synthesis in the muscles.
I asked him how this steroid would compare to others and he said it's not even as powerful as anavar.
Also it does not raise testosterone. This one uses a different path.
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Intramuscular
New member
Maybe this is a stupid question....But why would you want more free test than bound? Free test isn't doing anything to get you bigger, it's just floating around.
Bigrand,
The idea of DIM acting like yohimbine in blocking the estrogen receptors in fat cells is new to me, it's possible though, has anyone else heard of this?
The only thing I have heard about it, other than that it causes the release proteing bound test, is that it metabolizes carcinogenic estrogens and fat causing estrogens converting them to a more friendly estrogen.
The idea of DIM acting like yohimbine in blocking the estrogen receptors in fat cells is new to me, it's possible though, has anyone else heard of this?
The only thing I have heard about it, other than that it causes the release proteing bound test, is that it metabolizes carcinogenic estrogens and fat causing estrogens converting them to a more friendly estrogen.
"The idea of DIM acting like yohimbine in blocking the estrogen receptors in fat cells is new to me, it's possible though, has anyone else heard of this?
The only thing I have heard about it, other than that it causes the release proteing bound test, is that it metabolizes carcinogenic estrogens and fat causing estrogens converting them to a more friendly estrogen"
This idea comes from the idea that DIM increases the conversion of estradiol into 2-hydroxyestrogens, which have a higher binding affinity for SHBG. Theoretically, there may be some displacement of testosterone from the SHBG if this occurs. I have not seen any studies confirming this, though. It is not impossible, I simply have not found the references.
Also, 2-hydroxyestrogens are potentially thermogenic (weakly, though), because they are MAO or COMT inhibitors, so they can increase the levels of norepi and other neurotransmitters.
The only thing I have heard about it, other than that it causes the release proteing bound test, is that it metabolizes carcinogenic estrogens and fat causing estrogens converting them to a more friendly estrogen"
This idea comes from the idea that DIM increases the conversion of estradiol into 2-hydroxyestrogens, which have a higher binding affinity for SHBG. Theoretically, there may be some displacement of testosterone from the SHBG if this occurs. I have not seen any studies confirming this, though. It is not impossible, I simply have not found the references.
Also, 2-hydroxyestrogens are potentially thermogenic (weakly, though), because they are MAO or COMT inhibitors, so they can increase the levels of norepi and other neurotransmitters.
Sterone said:
Is the free vs. bound testosterone issue an issue of building muscle vs. not building muscle or one of building muscle with a corresponding signifcant increase in size vs. building muscle with a size increase that doesn't seem to correspond to the amount of lbm added?
I've always wondered about how some guys of similar height and build will both add X amount of lean body mass, but one looks significantly bigger and more muscular while the other does not. Is this what we're talking about? Or would that situation just indicate more significant gains in less conspicuous muscle groups such as the psoas, soleus, and spinal erector muscles in the case of the latter person mentioned?
Twisted Steel
Well I'll be damned! Twisted Steel replied to this thread. For those of you who don't know, he is one of the most articulate, gentlemanly brothers ever to grace this board. Dropped out of the game for personal reasons that I highly respect.
And, of course, I agree with his response completely. IGF-1 is said to aid in this as well.
TS......235lbs! Life is good, eh.
Well I'll be damned! Twisted Steel replied to this thread. For those of you who don't know, he is one of the most articulate, gentlemanly brothers ever to grace this board. Dropped out of the game for personal reasons that I highly respect.
And, of course, I agree with his response completely. IGF-1 is said to aid in this as well.
TS......235lbs! Life is good, eh.
S
Spartacus
Guest
any updates on DIM?
cockdezl said:
S
Spartacus
Guest
but is DIM good for reducing bad estrogen/estrodial?..I'm gonna buy your book soon
cultivatorB
New member
I have read about a plant called; Tongkat Ali, that is good for increasing free testosterone & unbinding it from SHBG.
please feel free to look into it & give me your opinions on its potential.
Would be nice to hear what you have to say about it after some online research.
I would like to know if this would be more effective than the Proviron?
Personaly, i used proviron for a short while and experienced noticable power, endurance and energy increases, (eg; in running/jogging) as well as muscle hardness.
would that have been the estrogen blocking, or just the DHT that did that?
Anyways... ive tried many other test boosters & prohormones... & i dont care about muscle size too much... all i can say is that proviron, so far really is a markedly physicaly & mentally positive thing.
Thanks
please feel free to look into it & give me your opinions on its potential.
Would be nice to hear what you have to say about it after some online research.
I would like to know if this would be more effective than the Proviron?
Personaly, i used proviron for a short while and experienced noticable power, endurance and energy increases, (eg; in running/jogging) as well as muscle hardness.
would that have been the estrogen blocking, or just the DHT that did that?
Anyways... ive tried many other test boosters & prohormones... & i dont care about muscle size too much... all i can say is that proviron, so far really is a markedly physicaly & mentally positive thing.
Thanks
njmuscleguy
New member
I wasn't aware that Tongkat bound to SHBG.... I know avena sativa does that, as well as proviron, thereby increasing free, unbound test. I do also know that most OTC supplements containing Tongkat have minute, mostly ineffective quantities of T-A extract (if it's even the extract at all!)... anything less than 1:50 or 1:200 concentration probably won't give much of T-A's "desirable effects"... but to get pure, highly-concentrated stuff you'd have to shell out some $$$.... it comes mostly from Maylasia or Indonesia (preferrably Indonesia)
blut wump
New member
From http://www.health-n-energy.com/ARTICLES/chrysin.htm
Nettle Root Extract
About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes, the remainder by the adrenal glands. Testosterone functions as an aphrodisiac hormone in brains cells, and as an anabolic hormone in the development of bone and skeletal muscle. But testosterone that becomes bound to serum globulin is not available to cell receptor sites and fails to induce a libido effect. It is, therefore, desirable to increase levels of "free testosterone" in order to ignite sexual arousal in the brain.
A hormone that controls levels of free testosterone is called sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). When testosterone binds to SHBG, it loses its biological activity and becomes known as "bound testosterone," as opposed to the desirable "free testosterone." As men age past year 45, SHBG's binding capacity increases almost dramatically-by 40% on average-and coincides with the age-associated loss of libido.
Some studies show that the decline in sexual interest with advancing age is not always due to the amount of testosterone produced, but rather to the increased binding of testosterone to globulin by SHBG. This explains why some older men who are on testosterone replacement therapy do not report a long-term aphrodisiac effect. That is, the artificially administered testosterone becomes bound by SHBG, and is not bioavailable to cellular receptor sites where it would normally produce a libido-enhancing effect.
It should be noted that the liver also causes testosterone to bind to globulin. This liver-induced binding of testosterone is worsened by the use of sedatives, anti-hypertensives, tranquilizers and alcoholic beverages. The overuse of drugs and alcohol could explain why some men do not experience a libido-enhancing effect when consuming drugs and plant-based aphrodisiacs. An interesting review, "How Desire Dies" (Nature, 381/6584, 1996), discusses how frequently prescribed drugs, such as beta-blockers and antidepressants, cause sexual dysfunction. Prescription drugs of all sorts have been linked to inhibition of libido.
Logically, one way of increasing libido in older men would be to block the testosterone-binding effects of SHBG. This would leave more testosterone in its free, sexually activating form.
A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site."
The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement. Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.
Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
Nettle Root Extract
About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes, the remainder by the adrenal glands. Testosterone functions as an aphrodisiac hormone in brains cells, and as an anabolic hormone in the development of bone and skeletal muscle. But testosterone that becomes bound to serum globulin is not available to cell receptor sites and fails to induce a libido effect. It is, therefore, desirable to increase levels of "free testosterone" in order to ignite sexual arousal in the brain.
A hormone that controls levels of free testosterone is called sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). When testosterone binds to SHBG, it loses its biological activity and becomes known as "bound testosterone," as opposed to the desirable "free testosterone." As men age past year 45, SHBG's binding capacity increases almost dramatically-by 40% on average-and coincides with the age-associated loss of libido.
Some studies show that the decline in sexual interest with advancing age is not always due to the amount of testosterone produced, but rather to the increased binding of testosterone to globulin by SHBG. This explains why some older men who are on testosterone replacement therapy do not report a long-term aphrodisiac effect. That is, the artificially administered testosterone becomes bound by SHBG, and is not bioavailable to cellular receptor sites where it would normally produce a libido-enhancing effect.
It should be noted that the liver also causes testosterone to bind to globulin. This liver-induced binding of testosterone is worsened by the use of sedatives, anti-hypertensives, tranquilizers and alcoholic beverages. The overuse of drugs and alcohol could explain why some men do not experience a libido-enhancing effect when consuming drugs and plant-based aphrodisiacs. An interesting review, "How Desire Dies" (Nature, 381/6584, 1996), discusses how frequently prescribed drugs, such as beta-blockers and antidepressants, cause sexual dysfunction. Prescription drugs of all sorts have been linked to inhibition of libido.
Logically, one way of increasing libido in older men would be to block the testosterone-binding effects of SHBG. This would leave more testosterone in its free, sexually activating form.
A highly concentrated extract from the nettle root provides a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone. Recent European research has identified constituents of nettle root that bind to SHBG in place of testosterone, thus reducing SHBG's binding of free testosterone. As the authors of one study state, these constituents of nettle root "may influence the blood level of free, i.e. active, steroid hormones by displacing them from the SHBG bindings site."
The prostate gland also benefits from nettle root. In Germany, nettle root has been used as a treatment for benign prostatic hyperplasia (enlargement of the prostate gland) for decades. A metabolite of testosterone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT) stimulates prostate growth, leading to enlargement. Nettle root inhibits the binding of DHT to attachment sites on the prostate membrane.
Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
<strong><img src="http://www.elitefitness.com/images/testosterone/testosterone-decrease.jpg" alt="Testosterone Decrease" width="380" height="256" hspace="10" align="right" />A study by Northwestern University shows that new fathers experience a severe <a href="http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/testosterone-levels-decrease" target="_blank">decrease in testosterone levels</a> immediately after they have a child. And the reason why new fathers’ <a href="http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/testosterone-levels-decrease" target="_blank">testosterone levels decrease</a> so rapidly will definitely surprise you.</strong><br /> <br /> The Northwestern study focused on the effects of fatherhood on testosterone production, and I’m warning you that the results aren’t desirable. According to the research, men’s testosterone levels decrease by 25%-35% after their baby is born. Obviously this sounds awful to those trying to pack on muscle, and the mere thought may keep you from wanting to have a child. But perhaps you’ll change your mind when I explain the reason behind the testosterone decrease. <p>Here's the full story:</p> <p><a href="http://bodybuilding.elitefitness.com/testosterone-levels-decrease" target="_blank">Testosterone Levels Decrease in New Fathers - Shocking Study<br /> </a></p>
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