Hey Vets, is this a good idea for A.M. Cardio??

[wwebound4life]

"I KNOW THIS IS THE WRONG FORUM, BUT HEY, THIS IS WHERE ALL THE BAD ASSES ARE!!"
I read in musclemag that you should have a protien shake a few minutes before A.M. cardio INSTEAD of an empty stomach. They say since it's just protein and no carbs you will still burn fat and preserve muscle. Is this the way you guys suggest doing this? Since I am "OFF" I want to hold on to all the muscle mass I can while still burning the fat off.
Thoughts..................








TRAIN, EAT, LIVE LIKE A ANIMAL!!

 

[Aries13]

if you feel like burping up a shake and spilling your guts all over everyone while running then go for it!

If Im having an emty stomach cardio session I go with a small piece of fruit or some honey....or nothing at all...(Cardio Breeze works good for the emty stomach cardio day )

 

[RBtrucking4]

I have a protien shake before my run every morning it never causes me any problems.

 

[Lifterforlife]

The amino acids are invaluable for fat burning in a fasted state. About 10-15 gr. 10 minutes or so pre cardio will do nicely.

 

[wwebound4life]

Thanks for the info guys!!!!!!!!!

 

[sawastea]

controversy surrounds the composition, amount, & timing of intake of food prior to, during, and after training. one camp espouses the benefits of training in a fasted state, so stored fat can be maximally used for fuel. this practice is counterproductive to generating maximal excess postexercise oxygen consumption, or EPOC. this is a lingering calorie-burning effect resulting from exercise. it's also known technically as oxygen debt, caused by oxygen consumption (extraction of oxygen from tissues) beyond what was originally required for the given rate of work. fuel usage during training should maximize workout intensity, productivity, & progression, not minimize it. a more productive workout results in more residual calories burned and a greater total energy expenditure, or thermic effect. to drive this point further, there is no inherently negative effect of employing during-workout fuel substrates for the goal of fat loss. the only way it can be detrimental is if these calories contribute to an unused surplus that is partitioned towards adipose -- but that's the sole result of a poorly designed diet in terms of overall energetics. the ultimate goal of nutrient timing is to maximize training performance (and recovery), which is really the point of genesis for a better body composition. every other objective is secondary at best. the big picture goal for fat loss nutrition is to cause a greater thermic effect of training on a 24-hr-a-day basis.

the thermodynamic & metabolic effect of gaining muscle is in fact more profound than simply losing fat, and certainly more beneficial than simultaneously losing both fat & muscle, to whatever degree. but my point is that you can achieve both goals if you play it smart.

if you really wanted to follow bill phillip's body for life recommendations to the letter, not only would you do your cardio in an overnight fasted state, but you'd also further encourage lean tissue catabolism by waiting an hour after your workouts before eating anything.. not too smart. in fact, if you were choose the exact worst two meals to cut or minimize calories from (from a training performance and thus physical adaptation/manifestation standpoint), it would be the pre & postexercise meals. period.

so you think you got awesome results from empty stomach morning cardio? that really depends on what you're comparing those results to. i won't dispute the possibility that you did get great results, but i can tell you with 100% certainty that you could have either kept or gained MORE muscle in the process of losing an equal amount of fat. the point is that there's many ways of achieving fat loss -- it's just that some methods are more muscle-sparing.

another thing to consider is that the body is a highly adaptive system. you can put your body through some of the most counterproductive protocols (like training in fasted states), and it will eventually adapt to the imposed stress to a certain degree by downregulating its compensatory responses and shifting its initial choice of fuel substrates. so you won't be pissing away quite as much muscle as rapidly as you initially did under this regime, but you definitely won't be optimizing your training and hence metabolic effects for bodybuilding purposes.

to reiterate: there are many ways of achieving body composition goals, many ways to achieve fat loss -- some ways are simply superior in their ability to save & gain muscle. and fasted training ain't it. go for a maximal thermic effect of training, that will get you the ultimate results. ever look at the physiques of 100 meter & 400 meter olympian sprinters? most guys would give their left nut to look like them. well, here's some news for you: they never EVER do cardio in anywhere near fasted states. imagine if you adopted their cardio fueling practices & stacked on top of that a bodybuilding resistance training protocol? hmmm...

 

[*Bunny*]

"I KNOW THIS IS THE WRONG FORUM, BUT HEY, THIS IS WHERE ALL THE BAD ASSES ARE!!"
I read in musclemag that you should have a protien shake a few minutes before A.M. cardio INSTEAD of an empty stomach. They say since it's just protein and no carbs you will still burn fat and preserve muscle. Is this the way you guys suggest doing this? Since I am "OFF" I want to hold on to all the muscle mass I can while still burning the fat off.
Thoughts..................

TRAIN, EAT, LIVE LIKE A ANIMAL!!

I think it's really a matter of personal preference & finding what works for you. Every ‘body’ is different & will most likely you will get varied opinions on this subject. I say try it, assess how you feel … then run with it.

 

[reelbig004]

I think it's really a matter of personal preference & finding what works for you. Every ‘body’ is different & will most likely you will get varied opinions on this subject. I say try it, assess how you feel … then run with it.

Well put. Everyone is different. From personal experience and countless others I have talked to, I would recommend cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. What is TRULY IMPORTANT is your post workout nutrition. When performing HIIT type cardio it is imperative to consume a protein+carb meal directly after training (Protein and Dextrose=optimal). When performing moderate intensity cardio for a longer period of time a protein+fat meal should be consumed post training (ex. Protein Shake with Flax). Good Luck Bro.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Well put. Everyone is different. From personal experience and countless others I have talked to, I would recommend cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. What is TRULY IMPORTANT is your post workout nutrition.

This may not be entirely true. Post workout gets all the "noise", supplements are made for it, etc. But, studies show that pre workout nutrition may indeed be more important. In fact, if you think about it, it only makes sense.

I for one think pwo overhyped.Sure all these studies show glucose uptake post workout, but looking closely at these studies, none say anything about pre workout nutrition, so the assumption has to be that they are depleted, and of course glucose uptake can be higher.

This however does not mean it would not be better with proper pre workout nutrition, and during workout nutrition.

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206. Related Articles, Links

Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.

Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.

Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA.
1. [email protected]

The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

When performing HIIT type cardio it is imperative to consume a protein+carb meal directly after training (Protein and Dextrose=optimal). When performing moderate intensity cardio for a longer period of time a protein+fat meal should be consumed post training (ex. Protein Shake with Flax). Good Luck Bro.

Sounds exactly like my old recommendations almost word for word. Though not a bad strategy, still does not address the fasted state cardio. Fat burning mechanism must be understood. Amino acids are necessary for fat burning to occur. Without them being adequte, your body will get them from the only place it can, muscle tissue.

 

[reelbig004]

I'm not saying your wrong, but my post does address the fasted state cardio. I agree with it and feel that muscle catabolism can be avoided by focusing on proper post workout nutrition.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Take a look at this, and you can maybe see where the danger can lie in not having amino acids available.

 

[cityhick]

I feel better when I run on empty and have had great results...just me though.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Looking at the process of fat oxidation I posted, muscle needs TCA intermediates to support fat oxidation. (fat oxidation does not just magically happen, everything has to be right, and the body will use what it needs to make it right).

Thus, to form TCA, it can come from amino acid breakdown. This is especially so in a glycogen depleted state. Just for safteys sake, I would take in some amino acids as mentioned.

My last word, this is a debate that has raged for a long time. The choice is up to the individual.