Help w/ AAS induced hypogonadism and lab results

[MADBALL99]

Some of you may remember my story, but if not my story is as follows.................

Back around Oct. of 2005 I naively did 2 cycles back to back of Deca Durabolin (100 & 200) to help a bad pec tear. I was doing 1cc a week for the 1st month and then 2cc's a week for the remainder. My last shot was on Dec.23 of 2005. I waited about 2 weeks and then I did 1cc of HCG for 10 days. That was it. I did no Clomid or Nolva. Before this I have never done a cycle of any anabolic steroid.


As you could guess a few weeks later I noticed I had no libido and had trouble sestaining erections. I immedietly went to my primary physician and had bloodwork done. Bloodwork showed that I had VERY low test levels (a reading of 108) and low LH and FSH . I also had a high red blood cell count. I was told to wait about 8 weeks for a follow up.

Soon I started to feel very lethargic, moody, and I found that I would fatigue very easily following any type of physical exertion.

About a month after my last HCG shot I began to take Tomaxophine Citrate to try and help raise my test. I knew it was late in the game, but I thought it was worth a try.I was taking around 40mg 1st 2 weeks, and tapered down to 30mg, 20mg, etc. That lasted around 8 weeks. I'm not sure if it's a side of the Tamaxo , but I was getting hot flashes, blurry vision, and now 2 weeks since I've taken it I still feel dizzy and light headed following any physical exertion. I also feel slower mentally and physically. I truly do not know if this is a symptom of low test or a side from the Tomaxo.

I have a follow up blood test tommorrow w/ my primary physician and an endo appointment on May 1st.

Although I have these appointments I fear that my doctors may offer little help as far as helping to restart my own natural test. My primary physician flat out admitted that he had no experience w/ steroid induced hypogonadism. We'll see what happens w/ my endo, but more than likely he may resort to lifelong TRT or HRT and I am trying to avoid this if possible.

What do you suggest if bloodwork comes back w/ negative feedback ? Should I just give my body more time ? It's been months and I've only been feeling worse. This has been affecting my entire life, both personal and at work. I want to feel better , but fear the risk of long term TRT.

Do you have any advice or references to good endo's in my area (Miami, Florida) that could treat my particular situation? Perhaps some resources or leads ? I appreciate the help.

-John

 

[MADBALL99]

Well I finally got my bloodwork back. Here's what I have so far....



RANGE

-Prolactin = 1.8 Low ( 2.1-17.7).......I found this odd since I thought Deca caused
high prolactin levels


-Progesterone = 0.5 ( 0.3 -1.2)

-TSH = 1.017 ( 0.350 - 5.500 )

-LH = 1.0 Low ( 1.5 - 9.3)......the same as 2 months ago

-FSH = 1.6 ( 1.4 - 18.1).........up slightly from 2 months ago but still on the
low end

-Testosterone, Serum = 266 ( 241-827)........This is up from 108 from 2 months ago

- CBC ?? Is this Red and White blood cell count ??

Well my White Blood Cell Count (WBC) = 6.9..............( 4.0 - 10.5 )

My Red Blood Cell Count (RBC) = 5.62 HIGH....( 4.10 - 5.60 )

- Estradiol = 23 ( 0 -53)


-HDL cholestorol = 64 HIGH ( 40 - 59 )


Well that's what I have thus far. Bare in mind that this test was taken after taking Tomaxophine Citrate for 2 months. Blood was taken about 12 days after the Tomaxo was finished. What do you think about these results so far though ? Especially the low prolactin levels ? Isn't Deca supposed to raise this ? What effect would low prolactin have ?? CBC was still high after months being off cycle, should I be concerned ? could this be the cause of my light headedness/ dizziness, head pressure and blurry vision ?

My Test levels have gone up, perhaps from the tomaxo or just time ? Stll very low however. I will request fot TT and Iron /Ferritin next week when I see my primary doctor. I also have an Endo appt. next week and I will bring these results. I still feel tired, moody, and have no libido. Dizziness and blurry vision also persist, but at least my test levels have risen a bit......I look foward to your input advice on this situation and most of all if recovery is possible. Thankyou

 

[sparetire]

Well, I can tell you from experience and from what others on here have said is that when you run hcg, it will help raise your normal test levels quite a bit. I have used it personally and it helped out a lot. But, the thing that I noticed about this post is that you mentioned that you used deca. I used tren 100 ace - 2 times , gave me gyno and shut me down for 3 months. Still, my libido is low, which is very unlike me normally and my nads are back to size. I will be getting the surgery done probably some time next month, so i told myself, no more cycles until after the surgery etc. But, like you, I was feeling lathargic, not really moody, but absolutely turned off to sex! WTF.. So, here's where my cure comes in: 1 shot of 400 mgs of test ent/cyp last monday. 3 days later, started to feel like my old self..a tad horny, energy levels raised, etc. 1 week later, WOW..horn-city all over again, just like before the tren. (tren and deca are related compounds just for those who don't know). I have heard of cycles shutting guys down for a year, etc.. I read a post last week about some guy on here who was shut down pretty hard and had to use test to get his body back up to par again. Now, remember that test cyp/ent will be active in your system for about 2 weeks, and the idea here isn't to cycle, but just to get your test elevated for a bit, but not too high, cuz you don't want to shut yourself down even harder. If you go to a hormone replacement doctor, most likely, they will give you androgel or injections to help get you back on track. You are right, Nolva does help your test levels raise a bit.. but maybe you should try a shot of test or see a hrt specialist.

I hope it works and I hope you find a solution..just thought I would share

 

[flyin j]

Keep us posted as to what your endo says, and keep posting your experiences. Good Luck.

 

[MadManiac13]

I'd have to say that a lot of those later symptoms were sides from the Nolva. The blurry vision side effect seems to be semi common. I've seen a lot of people on here suggest that running Nolva after Deca can make things worse, not better. I have before, but I always run a higher level of test than Deca, and have never had any problems.

Anyway, it seems like some fo your levels are improving, which may be a good sign, but yes, you are obviously still messed up. I'd wait to see what your endochrinologist says. I'm nto sure how old you are, but usually they are not quick to throw someone into HRT unless they have to. They may have a few other suggestions for you. Good luck. (if it were me though, I'd get the life long Test perscription)

 

[njmuscleguy]

I can sympathize with what you're going through, having had a botched up PCT recently myself.... from your bloodwork, it seems that you're levels are still responding as if there was deca in your system.... your cholesterol is up, your RBC is up.... test levels are still not back to "normal"... as well as your LH and FSH....

I'm no expert here, here is my thinking out-loud....

First and foremost, yes, give yourself time.... definitely hear what the endo has to say, but by no means do anything drastic like HRT (yet).

I would say do another PCT.... HCG + Nolva + Clomid + AI
Maybe something like 10 days HCG (500-1000 iu / day) ... 20 mg ED Nolva... and 50-100mg Clomid for 4 weeks ....do the AI for as long as you do the HCG.... I'm not a huge fan of Clomid by I wound up doing it for my 2nd PCT and it seemed to help? Also, you may want to consider adding proviron? Been reading alot about this lately.... it will help boost your libido.... it'll reduce the effects of SHBG... and apparently it isn't suppressive... others may chime in on this....

After this PCT, wait a while then get tested again.... hopefully then your levels will have gotten better.

Good luck bro, and keep us posted!

 

[MADBALL99]

It seems my LH is still shut down. Could it be that my HTPA is still "disconnected " somehow ? Meaning that maybe my testes are still ok, but off line ? Perhaps HCG followed by clomid could help. I ran HCG the first time but did not follow up w/ clomid 9dumb, I know this now).

Does Test come back slowly or spontaneously ?

Also, I know that Deca is a long lasting ester, but my last shot was back in December....could it still be in my system affecting my CBC, cholestorol, LH, and HTPA overall ??

 

[Big_Joe]

It seems my LH is still shut down. Could it be that my HTPA is still "disconnected " somehow ? Meaning that maybe my testes are still ok, but off line ? Perhaps HCG followed by clomid could help. I ran HCG the first time but did not follow up w/ clomid 9dumb, I know this now).

Does Test come back slowly or spontaneously ?

Also, I know that Deca is a long lasting ester, but my last shot was back in December....could it still be in my system affecting my CBC, cholestorol, LH, and HTPA overall ??

Deca can be detected in your system for up to 18 months.
Here are a couple of studies you might want to check out. It concerns hcg and recovery. I posted them before but you might not have seen them:

low dose hcg

High dose over a long time

 

[MADBALL99]

The deca can be detected for 18 months, but does that mean it's still active ? I do know that the nasty acne that I got on my back from the Deca/ HCG is still there even though my last Deca shot was on Dec. 23 and last HCG shot was in mid January.....Back is still VERY acne ridden.

 

[flyin j]

bump

 

[MADBALL99]

ttt

 

[JohnnyWest]

Definetley talk to your endo, i dought there is enough active deca to be causing any problems. I'm not an expert like your endo but here is a possible pct to run again.
week
1-3 1500iu hcg mwf with 50mg clomid and .5mg adex ed or eod as needed
4-7 50mg clomid and 20mg nolva, 40mg nolva first week and 100mg clomid first 3 days
good luck

 

[MADBALL99]

Why would prolactin be so low ?

 

[MADBALL99]

Also, what effect does HCG have on LH and FSH if any ?

 

[MADBALL99]

??

 

[MADBALL99]

He basically said that sice I'm young he thought I would return to normal......withing 6 months to a year. The thing is that even though he said he's seen many cases like mine, he didn't seem to know about treating it. He knew a little about clomid, but was inexperiened when it came to HCG. He said he could refer me to a good fertility clinic where they treat these things directly. Now I'm not sure what to do. I was planning on running a PCT protocol consisting of HCG, Clomid, and a little Nolva.......but I don't want to make anything worse. I'm stuck.

 

[parteeman]

He basically said that sice I'm young he thought I would return to normal......withing 6 months to a year. The thing is that even though he said he's seen many cases like mine, he didn't seem to know about treating it. He knew a little about clomid, but was inexperiened when it came to HCG. He said he could refer me to a good fertility clinic where they treat these things directly. Now I'm not sure what to do. I was planning on running a PCT protocol consisting of HCG, Clomid, and a little Nolva.......but I don't want to make anything worse. I'm stuck.

You need to make an appointment with Swale. Contact him through Allthingsmale.com. He's the leading expert on cases just like yours and will bring you back. You have to fly to East Lansing, Michigan to see him the first time, but the $400 bucks you'll spend on the flight and the $250 for the diagnosis and drugs will be the best money you've ever spent. And just for the record, I'm just a happy patient and have no financial or other interest in the doc's business.

 

[Juiced]

First off bro dont panic, your body WILL regain homostasis once that deca is completley out of your system, deca stores in fat cells and can be released into the blood for up to 18 months after the last injection, everytime you do something physical im sure that deca is releasing out of your stored fat, lowering your test levels and making you lethargic. Also deca is hands down the worst aas you can use that causes the worst shut down of your system, did you know that is takes 5 250mg shots of test to shut down the bodys production of test while it takes one 50mg shot of deca to shut you down? I would personally do a small cycle of HCG and Nolva or even exemestane and HCG, run the HCG at 500ius ed for 3 weeks with 20mg of exemestane and you should be fine in no time, just give it time, do NOT to HRT, you are young and no way you will need that, dont let your doc talk you into that based on his ignorance as that being the easiest way out for him to treat you. Write you a script and send you off, dont do it. Go to www.proteinfactory.com and buy unleashed, it contains natural herbs that are clinically proven to raise free test levels in the body, trust me it works, I have used it and now always wake up with morning wood. I have not had that in years as I dont come off aas or GH, but once I started using unleased I totally seen the difference. Good luck and calm down, youll be fine bro.

 

[MADBALL99]

I appreciate your time to answer my post. I have heard of swale and even spoke w/ his assistant over the phone. He said that he could set up a phone conference w/ me and my primary physician.

A few questions for PARTEEMAN.....

Did he treat you for AAS induced hypogonadism and help bring you back or are you on lifelong TRT/HRT ? Are you familiar w/ his protocols for bring someones HPTA back or do you know of specific cases that he's worked on to bring people back ? I appreciate you time. Thankyou

 

[dr_skier]

bro, listen to some of the other people here. Save the money and stress in your life from every trip to the doctors office and run another pct. Seriously. The one with HCG +clomid+nolva+AI like was mentioned, then re-evaluate. What's 3 more weeks to feel normal again?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

About a month after my last HCG shot I began to take Tomaxophine Citrate to try and help raise my test. I knew it was late in the game, but I thought it was worth a try.I was taking around 40mg 1st 2 weeks, and tapered down to 30mg, 20mg, etc. That lasted around 8 weeks. I'm not sure if it's a side of the Tamaxo , but I was getting hot flashes, blurry vision, and now 2 weeks since I've taken it I still feel dizzy and light headed following any physical exertion. I also feel slower mentally and physically. I truly do not know if this is a symptom of low test or a side from the Tomaxo.

BOTH and tamoxifin has a 12-14day half life with extended use (4-6weeks before you will have significant clearance)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

your oestrogen is high with test levels that low.

as dr.skier mention run HCG (low dose- large spikes can be more suppressive) + AI(Aromasin or AIFM) + SERM (try clomid- you dont seem to respond well to nolva)

 

[njmuscleguy]

your oestrogen is high with test levels that low.

as dr.skier mention run HCG (low dose- large spikes can be more suppressive) + AI(Aromasin or AIFM) + SERM (try clomid- you dont seem to respond well to nolva)

I agree with Macro on this one.... do another PCT....that's what I wound up doing when my first PCT didn't "take".... HCG at 500iu / day for anywhere from 10-21 days + AIFM + Clomid (I typically don't like Clomid but it was a necessary evil the 2nd time around).... this seemed to work

 

[blacksabbath1987]

I agree with Macro on this one.... do another PCT....that's what I wound up doing when my first PCT didn't "take".... HCG at 500iu / day for anywhere from 10-21 days + AIFM + Clomid (I typically don't like Clomid but it was a necessary evil the 2nd time around).... this seemed to work

give palm beach rejuvination a try they are close to you. i am in their program because my libido was shot also, i agree wiyh everyone else with the above statments. but if your are still having problems give palm beach a try you have nothing to lose,and gain back your drive.you can also add some tribuls t, i also know company called (LIBIDUS) THAT IN 10-minutes you can get a erection, if you have any questions you can pm me and i can give you more details.

 

[njmuscleguy]

give palm beach rejuvination a try they are close to you. i am in their program because my libido was shot also, i agree wiyh everyone else with the above statments. but if your are still having problems give palm beach a try you have nothing to lose,and gain back your drive.you can also add some tribuls t, i also know company called (LIBIDUS) THAT IN 10-minutes you can get a erection, if you have any questions you can pm me and i can give you more details.

I'm curious.... what does their program entail? What are they having you take?

 

[njmuscleguy]

You need to make an appointment with Swale. Contact him through Allthingsmale.com. He's the leading expert on cases just like yours and will bring you back. You have to fly to East Lansing, Michigan to see him the first time, but the $400 bucks you'll spend on the flight and the $250 for the diagnosis and drugs will be the best money you've ever spent. And just for the record, I'm just a happy patient and have no financial or other interest in the doc's business.

Same question for you.... what did your regimen entail? (what drugs, etc.)

 

[MADBALL99]

Would running Clomid w/out HCG be a bad idea ? Wouldn't HCG just suppress me more, especially my LH which is already low ?

 

[jagerbombme]

man, deca's dang sides don't sound like they make it worth it to do the stuff. even when running test it sounds like this stuff just causes problems. especially if it's not done right with more test mg's than deca. of course this is all from what i've read here. but i don't think i'll ever do the stuff. test sounds good enough to me. straight forward. although it is deca's pro-joint material which is what turned me on to aas in the first place, and from there, who doesn't want to get big.

 

[njmuscleguy]

Would running Clomid w/out HCG be a bad idea ? Wouldn't HCG just suppress me more, especially my LH which is already low ?

Bro, you've been given a TON of advice time and time again.... you seemingly don't like what you're hearing, so why keep asking? Not trying to flame here... but take some of these suggestions... see what happens... running another proper PCT couldn't hurt...only help....

Read this article, it may answer some questions:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm