help our joints

[goodsguys]

Hi. I've done research on the effect of steroids on body collagen levels especially pertaining to joint degredation wear and tear. I spent the whole day visting forums, medical sites and the such like, and continually saw this one posting which i am sure you will all recognise immediatly as it must have been copied and pasted into every training related forum on the web. And it goes a little something like this :-

" Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing."

Unfortnatly there is nothing to coroborate this posting and the author has disappeared, refusing to answer any emails or explain his " scientific findings ".
My worry is that: forum after form website after website is full of people refering to this posting and stating they are going to add deca or equipoise to their stack to protect their joints.
Unfortunalty painful joints only disappear while on deca and return very swiftly when the course is ceased showing that deca only has a masking effect

The closest i came to any evidence between test and collagen is this:
which states test has no effect on collagen, and this:
which also states that test does not affect collagen synthesis.
Oops! Sorry had to delete the links, not allowed by admin


When on a cycle the body produces more estrogen and cortisol. My question is if test does not affect collagen, is it the higher levels of cortisol which the body produces which affects collagen. Most studies show that estrogen increases collagen production. People on estrogen or test hormone replacement therapy usually report increased levels of collagen

Thanks in advance for your help. John.

 

[twr]

Just some personal experience: EQ- no help with joints at all. Decca- I had what I thought was bursitis of the shoulder and a tendon in my forearm that would not heal. It made lateral raises almost impossible. I ran 600mg a week of decca w/ 500mg of sus.for 8 weeks and have never had a problem with either... going on 6 years now.
Decca works wonders on joints and ligaments.
my .02

 

[wootoom]

I like the Primo part Another good reason to do it..

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. So do you think there is actually something to the posting i quoted. As i say there is nothing
on the web to support it especially the percentage numbers he stated, but i guess real life experience which you have kindly provided is the best indicator. Still would be nice to hear from someone who may have scientific evidence or perhaps more firsthand experience.

Surprised to hear that eq had no effect on joints as the posting claimed it boosted collagen
the most out of all the steroids.

Thanks. John.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

My joints feel a million times better running EQ with anavar then when I ran winny alone.

Also, I believe EQ is similar in structure as Deca and one of the properties that is very similar between the 2 is the joint protection, from what I've heard. I'll see if I can find something to back it up.

Anyways, my joints feel awesome though, so maybe I can just feel my own proof.

 

[thelion2005]

I have arthritis in various joints and had hip replacement it was so bad there.
I believe that once cartilage is gone ... it is gone.

However, some aas draws fluid into the tissues around the joint and that provides
some cushion and some relief. I've done the list ... deca, npp, winny, ana, d-bol, sust, tests of all kinds .....

The best feeling I got was from test p or sust. d-bol was good too. However, I had to watch my blood pressure like a hawk.

 

[ArmaniAK47]

No offense... but aren't deca and equipoise way different?

and why wouldn't test increase joint strength?

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. Thanks for the update.

It's all a very confusing issue. Many people state their joints killed when on an equipoise cycle, if it boosts collagen then why? Armaniak 47: most bodybuilders do get facial wrinkles from test which indicates a weakening
and thinning of the skin. Some believe any and all steroids will weaken collagen, look at the number of pro bodybuilders with torn muscles and tendons. Yet those who go onto hormone replacement therapy from the doctor report increases in collagen and joint health. I guess they don't take anything like the levels of test pros take which might be a factor. My theory was if test and estrogen are good for collagen, could it be the higher level of cortisol that is the culprit?

Finally there's an intresting comment from a gym buddy of mine who states
that only growth hormone is the real and scientifically proven booster of collagen and joint health, and says if you have a bad joint, lets say elbows for example, you can rub the growth hormone directly onto the joint to give relief rather than injecting it and letting it go off anywhere in the entire body it feels like, not that he's tried it himself just something he's heard.

Is this possible, or will the growth hormone be destroyed by skin enzymes, much like test is affected by the 5 alpha reductase enzyme?

I find it all interesting and would love some feedback

Thanks in advance. John.

 

[Nitro79]

i think that hgh and igf are the best collagen boosters , and should be included in any aas cyles if there any concerns for joint health and during pct as well , the only problem is their prices , very expensive. Deca could be effective in masking the pain during the stack period due to it's high conversion to estrogen which retains too much water in the body but don't think that it would solve the problem permanently , it take months maybe years sometimes to heal from a damage joint or tendon.
i had tendenosis (shoulder), started a year ago during a 10 weeks stack of winny tren ace and prop, the best cheap treatment i'm having right now is training with light weights on a slow tempo and taking some supplements like glucosamine and chondroitin (animal flex my favorite) and doing well now feeling 75 % recovered still hoping that some day the pain will totally go away.

 

[wootoom]

Exactly I would say it's more about the training regiment...also I heard hgh can cause carpal tunnel is this true? I use lighter weight now and my joints feel way better

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

"Some believe any and all steroids will weaken collagen, look at the number of pro bodybuilders with torn muscles and tendons."

From what I've read its mostly because they are lifting an incredible amount of weight in conjunction with using too much winny. Winny dries the joints like crazy.

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. Thanks for the updates. Yes, i think that too, hgh is probably the best collagen booster and joint healer.
Is it possile to make the hgh have a more localised effect, rather than just injecting it into the body and letting it go anywhere it feels like.
I was rather foolishly thinking of rubbing it into the joints and hoping it may have a collagen boosting/healing effect on the joint itself, but i now know i was wrong.

Is there anyway of injecting the hgh and making it stay in and around the injection site, perhaps small doses which are taken up by the immediate tissues before it has a chance to wander off, or mixing it with something..

Again your invaluable point of view would be appreciated.

 

[genetics]

Is there anyway of injecting the hgh and making it stay in and around the injection site, perhaps small doses which are taken up by the immediate tissues before it has a chance to wander off, or mixing it with something..

Very good question. But i have my doubts on HGH working in a site injection fashion. I'm waiting to hear some pros on this. needto? Omega?

 

[goodsguys]

Hi Guys. Went to see the doctor in hope of some information. There were some posts earlier about light weights being good for joints and i wanted to address that.

The doc corroborated it! Said that light movements help to regenerate the joint and build it back up. He advised me to stop lifting heavy and only do stamina work and circuits from now on
until things got back to normal.

Sems like good advise judging from what has been said so far.

Thanks for listening. John.

 

[eboy]

gh gives me carpal tunnel every time and ive never gone above 4iu a day-but its a good indicator that its real lol and goes away when i stop so i find it worth it because of the fat burning effect i get is awesome!

 

[Nitro79]

ur right about that "goodsguys", i've been training with light weights since my shoulder injuries , a controlled concentric movement and a very slow eccentric , like 1 sec up 3 sec down on a bench press (10 to 15 reps)and sometimes even 5 or more secs specially in the begining of my treatment when any weight felt hard and painful and it really helped me rebuilding my tendons , annother thing is always use dumbbells instead of barbells it's safer and distribute the work evenly on both sides.

 

[goodsguys]

Thanks for that nitro, let me know what kind of injury you have, joint, ligament tendon or muscle, got a good shoulder exercise for you to heal up on. Check this out:

1. Stand up straight, with chest expanded, back straight. Hold your arms out in front of you about chest height, arms slightly bent, hands clasped together or fingers interlinked, actually

i think fingers interlinked is better.

2. Press your hands together firmly and turn then your hands fully clockwise slowly, then turn them fully anticlockwise slowly, repeat for 10-15 reps. Grab a short rest 10-20 seconds, now repeat with

hands at waist height, rest 10-20 secs, repeat your 10-15 reps again with hands at face level, rest 10-20 secs repeat hands overhead.

Got this off a good physio a few years ago did wonders for me.

Don't forget to repeat three times a day.

Thanks for listenning, John.

 

[Nitro79]

well i'm curious about that bro i'll definitely try it and report to u , and by the way my injury is Tendinosis.
thx for caring bro

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. The trick to this is that you are exercising the muscles tendons etc but because there is no weight, there is no "grinding" of the joints possible. You can get

quite a nice pump with this by doing it morning afternoon and evening, and because there is no weights involved there is no shattering of the muscle fibers

possible,

again all good rehabilitating work. Should see a positive effect very quickly, but do not strain yourself this is supposed to be remedial work do not go for the

burn.

Recovery time: It also depends on how much work you are doing on your other body parts as the body only has a limited amount of recovery abilities.

Definetly is good stuff take it from me, remember a change or variety is the most important part of training. Keep the muscles guessing, different angles, different

tactics

Another thing, punchbag work. I used to be a pro boxer, gives you strong bones and joints.

Here's how it works. Some guys can smash bricks, stones, tiles with their hands. Scientific tests on these individuals have shown they have

very dense bones and joints.

When they do their punchbag work, the shock of hitting the bag travels back down their arms and damages the bones, slightly.

More or less in a similar way lifting weights damages muscles.

Over time the bones grow back, but this time stronger and thicker.

The guy i saw had bones almost twice as dense as an ordinary man's

And i know when i throw in some punchbag work my hands, elbows feel a lot better, just got to remenber to keep it up. so busy nowadays

i barely find time to do a workout properly never mind fitting in all the light work, stretching, making and eating 7 meals a day, supplements, whey, etc etc

Oh well enough of my problems

 

[ArmaniAK47]

I have never once seen a bunch of "facial wrinkles" on a pro bodybuilders faces...

Steroids, including testosterone, DO increase tendon strength and help with joint health.. (If they didn't everyone that took 20mg of dbol a day for a month would tear everything, as muscles would be stronger than joints/tendons)

Winstrol is bad shit, but other that that I havn't heard anything extensive on steroids..

Pro bodybuilders, when they tear something (you make it seem so commonplace..) do so because they are world class atheletes.. many other world class athletes have injuries, and bodybuilders stress their bodies the most imo.. I don't see this as a steroid related problem.. The winstrol probably doesnt help, but we cannot blame steroids for injuries such as this..

 

[ArmaniAK47]

Also:

I have read that phosphatidlyserine helps with reducing cortisol levels.. may try this at 600mg-1000mg/day.

 

[Nitro79]

Hi. The trick to this is that you are exercising the muscles tendons etc but because there is no weight, there is no "grinding" of the joints possible. You can get

quite a nice pump with this by doing it morning afternoon and evening, and because there is no weights involved there is no shattering of the muscle fibers

possible,

again all good rehabilitating work. Should see a positive effect very quickly, but do not strain yourself this is supposed to be remedial work do not go for the

burn.

Recovery time: It also depends on how much work you are doing on your other body parts as the body only has a limited amount of recovery abilities.

Definetly is good stuff take it from me, remember a change or variety is the most important part of training. Keep the muscles guessing, different angles, different

tactics

Another thing, punchbag work. I used to be a pro boxer, gives you strong bones and joints.

Here's how it works. Some guys can smash bricks, stones, tiles with their hands. Scientific tests on these individuals have shown they have

very dense bones and joints.

When they do their punchbag work, the shock of hitting the bag travels back down their arms and damages the bones, slightly.

More or less in a similar way lifting weights damages muscles.

Over time the bones grow back, but this time stronger and thicker.

The guy i saw had bones almost twice as dense as an ordinary man's

And i know when i throw in some punchbag work my hands, elbows feel a lot better, just got to remenber to keep it up. so busy nowadays

i barely find time to do a workout properly never mind fitting in all the light work, stretching, making and eating 7 meals a day, supplements, whey, etc etc

Oh well enough of my problems

very interesting man , i really learned something new , thx again and keep up the good work

 

[goodsguys]

Hi Guys, i'm back with some more info. More research later , and i'm blaming the problem of body and joint health on the diet .

It appears the body sees the joints, bones etc as less vital than the other organs such as heart, brain, liver etc. I reckon you can get by

without nutrients going to certain parts of the body for a while, but if nutrients are cut off from the heart or brain you are in big trouble.

The body unfairly directs all nutrients to the more "important" organs than those lower down in the pecking order.

The result: during an anabolic cycle there is tremendous competition for nutrients from all sectors of the body, and the poor old joints

gets what amounts to the leftovers whereas the heart, lungs, brain etc get the lion's share.

Whatever you take in will never be distributed evenly and the less important organs suffer.

However i have found an answer to this. Apart from the obvious supplements you can swallow, try this tried and tested proven remedy:

1. Take a spoon of olive oil and heat gently .

2. Crack open a vitamin and mineral supplement capsule, you know the gel or oil type.

3. Pour into the warm olive oil.

4. You can add a few drops of dmso at this stage, keep stirring and keep the mixture warm.

A WORD OF WARNING at this point about dmso. Dmso will make your body stink, but only if you go out and buy the cheap crap stuff which

is full of cheap crap. So many times i see people paying just a few dollars for bottles of dmso then they walk around complaining their body stinks of shit.

My advice: if you are going to buy cheap shit and put cheap shit in your body then don't complain if you smell of it.

I use a 99.999% pure from jacobs labs and have never smelt a single solitary thing, bloomin thing costs me $30 a go though.

Anyway back to the post.

5. Rub the mix onto your painful joints twice a day for 2 weeks, you will need to keep rubbing for 5-10 minutes to really stretch the skin pores open

and work the mix in. Probably could cover it with some cling film which keeps the heat in and the pores open.

6. After 2 weeks you should notice the joints feeling better, at this stage it's time to throw in some of that punchbag work i

mentioned earlier (okay, don't groan too loudly).

7. This will toughen up your hands, elbows, shoulders etc over quite a short space of time.

8. If the pain is in your legs, go to a squat machine and pile on the weight. Stand with your legs and hips locked. The weight

of the machine will put pressure on your joints causing them to react and toughen up.

Also you could try jumping on a soft surface such as grass, small jumps

at first until your joints begin to feel better. Jump up, but lock the joints as you land. You should notice the difference after just a week.

9. Ideally all exercises to be performed twice a day, could easily be incorported into the latter stages of a warm up routine.

Thanks for listening. John.